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Is Islam incompatible with western liberal...
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

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Is Islam incompatible with western liberal democracy?

What can be done, if anything to reform Islam and open it up to liberty and representative government?
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No.

But you can always try to twist something so it can fit in something else.
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Nukes.
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>>670884
Western liberal democracy isn't even compatible with itself, and the west will slowly, but surely, be taken over by foreigners who will turn it into the same shitholes they came from.
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No.

Why would it be? Christianity wasn't. Judaism wasn't. Islam is like babby mode compared to these religions.
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Forget Islam, Western liberal democracy isn't even compatible with modern liberal capitalism, the beating heart and lifeblood of our Western civilization.
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Islam is a plague set upon the West and it will always be in a constant conflict with it until one side finally annihilates another. There can be no peace with Muslims and they will use all of our weaknesses to destroy us as a civilization, just like they tried for the past fourteen centuries.
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>>670884
This is obviously fucking bait. Interference in already secular muslim countries by NEOCON brainwashed Americans led to them being like they are today.
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>>670884
muslism need to chill no more allah akbhar more chilling at the snack bar
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>>670884
>Is Islam incompatible with western liberal democracy?
No more than any other religion.

>What can be done, if anything to reform Islam and open it up to liberty and representative government?
1) Suspend all military adventurism and imperialism by Western powers in the Middle East.
2) Allow Middle Easterners complete autonomy.
3) Establish a reparation fund against NATO to both pay blood money to every Middle Easterner (non royal) and allow the rebuilding of the Middle East such that funds go directly to infrastructure devised by local residents.
4) If Muslims decide not to pursue republicanism after this, that's their prerogative, you dumb cunt.

Alternatively, travel back in time so that either 1) Jewish ultranationalists are suppressed and Palestine isn't conquered 2) NATO doesn't assassinate Leftist movements and turn illiterate goat-herders into make-believe jihadis.
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>>670951
This.

The oppressive Govt. should be replaced by corporations :^)
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>>670998
no then things would get even worse
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>>670884

>What can be done, if anything to reform Islam and open it up to liberty and representative government?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. These values aren't exactly enshrined in Christianity or Judaism either. Our ideas of liberty and representative government are rooted in secular rather than religious traditions.

You're better off trying to get Muslim countries to adopt these values in a secular setting like we did. You're wasting your time if you think you can impose these values on scripture that emerged from 7th Century Arabia.
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>>670998
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>>670884
No, absolutely not.
To be a Muslim, one must believe that Muhammad was the prophet of Allah, and a perfect being whose examples must be followed. Muhammad established the first Khilafa, and established the Shariah, acting on the wishes of Allah. How can one claim to follow Muhammad and Allah and, at the same time, oppose the Khilafa and the Shariah? To support liberal democracy is to be an apostate from Islam, because you are directly disobeying Allah and Muhammad's wishes.
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>>670884
Islam is incompatible with people with a 3-digit IQ.
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Judging by the debates I've had with Muslims and the fact that Muslim MPs in Britain oppose speech that criticizes Islam and wouldn't support free speech in related areas, no, it isn't.
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>>671039
It's not a strawman if it actually, accurately represents the views being satirized. Which it does.
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>>671047
I guess countries like turkey are full with apostates then right ?
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>>671047
>Muhammad established the first Khilafa
You tripped up false flag
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>>671065
yep that's why allah is making putin start a war with them
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>>671039
It doesn't help that the ideology in itself is asinine.

(P. S. Praise McDonald's®)
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>>670884
European peoples are pagans at heart and that heritage has stayed alive in subtle and not-so-subtle ways throughout the years.* Christianity was largely suborned as it moved north to the extent that it became more of a garment cut to fit than a straightjacket by the time that all was said and done and the pattern has repeated itself the world over whenever Christianity moves into a new frontier.

Islam, however, is not only famous for its inflexibility but comes complete with civic, social and spiritual blueprints for virtually every aspect of society from the ground up in the form of Sharia law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsrnmzxEUY

*As late as the 19th century, German peasants were offering sacrifices to "Wod" at harvest times and pre-Christian superstitions in a similar vein were rampant.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ERxuXqWMGXoC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=beating+their+scythes+with+stones&source=bl&ots=I-9dN_kYhg&sig=yS08GUOIP0nApDLBvUETezG25KQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtk_6I3unKAhVG32MKHcfJBBsQ6AEIKzAD#v=onepage&q&f=false
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It's completely compatible with Western Liberal Democracy. Just look at Evangelical Christianity for a prototype of how Muslims can integrate into a modern democracy.

Just like evangelicals, they are free to turn their radical conservative dogma into laws (for example, just look how long it took for gay marriage to become legal in the US. The only argument for keeping it illegal was that it violated the Christian definition of marriage).
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>>671073
Libertarians have an unfortunate tendency to obsess about the means of their ideology rather than the ends of their ideology, an example of how one has to consider both consequence and rules.
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Islam is not compatible with anything.
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this is the third time i see a thread talking about islam and how it can be reformed to fit some faggot's political agenda.

please fuck off this is non-productive and non-entertaining.
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>>670921
>>>/pol/
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>>671073
If you think that the libertarian movement is lock step with Rothbard you would be mistaken.Most could probably be categorized, in American parlance as simply being liberal on social issues and conservative on fiscal issues
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>>671121
yes that is the point you idiot, islam is its own thing, its not communist like, not democratic like, not socialist like.
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Why must it be a liberal democracy?
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>>670884
>Is Islam incompatible with western liberal democracy?
Yes, but liberal democracy wont last long anyway
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>>670995

Is this a /his/ example of a bait post?
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>>671136
>idiot

I'm not complaining about Islam, Rasheed. Just saying how it is. Hopefully people will stop this reform talk because Islam is perfect and complete in the eyes of Muslims.
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>>671065
Yes.
>>671068
What was Muhammad's empire if not a caliphate?
I'm not a Muslim so I'm not an expert, correct me if I'm wrong.
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>>671164
>I'm not an expert

Then why did you make such claims in the first place?
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>>671143
even the muslims don't embrace islam to the full extent, there's always a guy with a gay son he doesn't want to be killed, or a thief with too much influence that doesn't get his hand cut, or a cheating husband/wife that doesn't get stoned.
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>>670995
>imperialism
>blood money
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>>671047
>To be a Muslim, one must believe that Muhammad was the prophet of Allah, and a perfect being whose examples must be followed
The Muslim profession of faith that converts use only mentions the prophet of God part, not the perfect being/must be followed bit.
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>>670884
Nah?

Why would you do that?

See
>>670921
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>>671164
Muhammad didn't have an empire for one thing, but a judiciary over a tribal confederation accepting the Hedjaz as the Arabian supreme court.

Finally, caliphate meant one of two things in early Islamic history: a successor to Muhammad's rule through the upholding of divinely inspired legal precedent, or the successor to the now defunct role of Prophethood ended with Muhammad's death.

Either case kind of supposes Muhammad being dead to begin with.
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>>671084
>European peoples are pagans at heart
We prefer "Faustian."
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>>670884
Only if it is reformed to not regard the quran as literalyl perfect and unchangeable.
Would any version of christianity that regards the old testament as literally perfect be compatible with a secular democracy? Of course not.
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>>670884

There is no a-political version of islam in any of the major islamic schools or branches. As its stands, none of the major schools of islam are compatible with a secular democracy, since sharia as law is prescribed.

For how it plays out in practice:
the "islamic NATO", Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC), consisting of 57 islamic states, has signed off on the
Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI)
redefining "human rights" into "what is stated in Sharia Law".

->Article 24 of the declaration states: "All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Sharia." Article 19 also says: "There shall be no crime or punishment except as provided for in the Sharia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam#Criticism


So, at least all of those 57 states and their leaders deny any possibility of an islamic secular state in principle.
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>>671701
Didn't German orientalists recently find evidence that the Koran was stitched together from various sources and now they're trying to study said evidence more deeply on the DL because of the huge uproar it could cause?
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>>671715
There is pretty good evidence most of the bible is written as a fable for entertainment or political purpouses. Jesus not being a historical figure and just a retelling of an older jewish myth where an angel was crucified. Does anyone care? No.
But man, it sure would be hilarious if they actually would confirm that..
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>>670884
I wish Arab ethnicity/nationality remained in those perfect borders

Fucking map blobbing and Ummayad forced arabisation, I swear
RIP ancient civilisations
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>>671711
Can you cite which page has the blue graph in the pew report? Thanks.
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>>671658
I was using it in a more secular sense; European culture has always had a streak of caveman in it just waiting to present itself as well as a sort of masochism - especially regarding the natural world.

If you really want to get spacey and mildly /pol/ with the idea, one could say that many of the various and sundry seemingly nonsensical things that Europeans do in a natural environment (long-distance sailing or hiking the AT for example) constitute a form of nature worship wherein one's own effort is placed on the altar and the reward is the experience. When you do something like hike the entire AT, you're essentially flagellating yourself for the privilege of being there.
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>>671737
The love of nature didn't really start until John Muir (pbuh) and Teddy started the national park system, before that we fucking hated it. Have you seen pre-Victorian gardens? They're almost wholly artificial!
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>>671736
I can't, because it says right under it that its based on the report, and not from the report. The pew report had a sample size of 38000 people.
The accuracy of applying these results to the overall population of 1.62 billion muslims is, as per
http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm

99% certainty and an errormargin of about +-0.66%

Glad you asked, and glad you are trying to nitpick this, means its actually bothering you and you are taking it seriously.
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>>671764
>The accuracy of applying these results to the overall population of 1.62 billion muslims is, as per
>http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm
>99% certainty and an errormargin of about +-0.66%
That's not how it works, because it wasn't a random sample of worldwide Muslims. If I poll every citizen of Oklahoma that doesn't make ti representative of the United States. That's an intellectually dishonest projection.
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>>671711
All major Sunni and Sufi schools are a-political, and have been for a few centuries with the exception of Ottoman Hanafi codification. This is why many early supporters of the secular nation state at the turn of the 20th century were religious clerics. Sharia law was not prescribed in tradition, interpretation of fiqh in intermuslim disputes was instead, which is why urban judicial courts existed alongside both royal canon and tribal law in history.

The phenomenon now surging through the Muslim world is something different, a mix of Islamism and Salafist social order. One is the state control of religion and society through claiming sole legitimacy and authority in court and law, the other is a religious rejection of civil and secular authority in religious and social affairs. Both reject either traditional Islamic separation of religious, political, or tribal control or the newer mandate of the modern nation-state and what many see as invasive despotism and nepotism.

It's why the OIC is made up of career politicians and bureaucrats, not religious clerics, and why the founders and preachers of the madrassas and TV/internet religion shows that have spread the current popular beliefs in the role of Sharia, as interchangeable with fiqh with usually one correct interpretation and a siege mentality against rival movements are almost always non-political figures holding no office (except in Pakistan, but anyone can hold an office there if you bribe/shoot/bribe then shoot the right people).
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>>670998
that image is retarded
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>>670884
>Is Islam incompatible with western liberal democracy?
No. See Algeria, Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

>What can be done
Nobody knows.

>>672280
>that image is retarded
still less than libertarians
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>>670998
that's not even in any way related to the post you're responding to
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>>670884
What sort of Islam?
The disgusting mainstream sharia minded sunni or other democratic/socialist kinds, like Alevi?
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>>670884
Qutb was probably just autistic. Its understandable to see him horrified by post-War American consumerism, this was a view shared by the Neo-conservatives. But to see it as afront to God and Islam was probably just him being an autistic religious idiot.
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>>670995
>No more than any other religion.
>forgetting about render unto caesar
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>>672312
>>Is Islam incompatible with western liberal democracy?
>No. See Algeria, Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

Egypt is run by a military dictatorship right now and Iran is a theocracy. Syria is like Egypt and has other problems as well.
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>>672348
DUDE
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>she doesn't know the difference between corporatism and capitalism
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>>670995
>both pay blood money to every Middle Easterner (non royal) and allow the rebuilding of the Middle East such that funds go directly to infrastructure devised by local residents.

I am waiting for my blood money for bloody Middle Easterners' piracy and slave raids.
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>>670884

I don't believe Islam can be reconciled with anything without a great deal of twisting and watering down. Which in turn will create even more fundamentalists wishing to destroy the modern world.

Islam is unlike anything else. It's a fixed set of rules (dos and don'ts) that regulate practically every aspect of life. As such it's bound to clash with literally any ideology or mode of conduct. Because everything is already covered in Islam. From bushiness transactions, through taxation, through marriage law up to the proper mode of wiping one's ass (yes, it's true!).

A Muslim who wants to be a liberal democrat must compromise his or hers beliefs. There's no other way.
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>>672547
One is a real thing with dictionary definitions and a coherent wikipedia article and one is a made up Internet buzzword.
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>>671796
see
>>672348

>Sunnis don't want sharia as law
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>>671776
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpy7R2MM6ng
Yeah ok.

>99% is not 100% so its clearly unreliable
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>>672965
The lay people, not the traditionalist hierarchy such laws would threaten
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>Islam
>incompatible with western liberal democracy?
Nah
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>>671050

Cuz they have 4 digit IQ ;P
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islam is realy schismatic and self chauvinistic. its votaries tend to self segregate and live within the influence of the clan and not of society at large just like the roma do.
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>>672988
Yeah ok, ignore the bad muslims, you mean the other muslims, got it, thanks for clarifying yes.

Please now proceed to actually point out any muslims that do not believe their book is literally perfect.
I know of one: Maajid Nawaz.

Its not about politics. If people didn't actually believe this politicians wouldn't be able to use their religion like that.
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>>671131
Not even sympathetic with him, but why isn't he allowed to be antiimmigration? Hes allowed to express that opinion without being called /pol/ even if he spouts muh degeneracy
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>>673287
Because it's 2016 anon, I mean come on
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>>673287
>>673298
Because the Regressive Left will not tolerate anything against their narrative.
I'm a leftie, but I fucking hate idiocy.
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>>670884
Are we talking about western culture intended as christianity vs arab based countries where religion is everything? There's no comparison. Are two different and incompatible ways to intend civilization. They should stay separated, by mutual tolerance
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>>673353
Did Tim Buckley draw this?
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>>673270
>Yeah ok, ignore the bad muslims, you mean the other muslims, got it, thanks for clarifying yes.
Clearly you didn't understand the second time. I'm not talking about bad or good Muslims, I'm talking about traditional Islamic schools of theology and their official teachings on modern public and private law and government, that is, 'Islam.'

Bad Muslims, as in either poor or divisively protestant members of an Islamic community or just bad and rebellious people in general, are not being ignored here. Like Maajid Nawaz himself would say, don't confuse 'bad Muslims' for Islam, or vice versa.

In both cases it's about far more than either politics or religion, but ideologies combined from both in two major ways: Islamism and Salafism.
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>>673270
>Please now proceed to actually point out any muslims that do not believe their book is literally perfect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%CA%BFtazila

Islam had rationalism before us, how cool is that?
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>>671047
> To support liberal democracy is to be an apostate from Islam, because you are directly disobeying Allah and Muhammad's wishes.
not at all. You know, Muhammad (and so God) wished for the Caliph to be chosen by the Muslims, although for life.
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>>671047
>How can one claim to follow Muhammad and Allah and, at the same time, oppose the Khilafa and the Shariah?

The Caliphate and the Shariah Law were both developed after the death of Muhammad.
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>>672348
Alevis are not Muslim so..
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>>673641
>Alevism is considered one of the many sects of Islam.
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>>670884
>Is Islam incompatible with western liberal democracy
Yes
>What can be done, if anything to reform Islam and open it up to liberty and representative government?
A Caliphate is already a representative form of government
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>>670884
No,

but Arabs and Turks are.
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>>673933
Are you kidding? In the whole arab history there were only 3 great caliphates, two of them too ancient to consider, but the most important and deeply studied was the ottoman caliphate. Now, it's a fact that this was a unique form of caliphate, because turks aren't arabs and they came from Altai, a north-china region populated by mongolians. Anyway, that form of caliphate yes, was kinda similar to a "rapresentative" government, but actualizing situation, the former new caliphate should be built by those fucking psycho-guys who pretend to kill everything is not islamic? Be serious.
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>>672507
>Iran is a theocracy.

And I'm sure that has to do with scary brown people being savages, definitely not the result of the U.S. overthrowing Iranian democracy, installing a leader who oppressed the masses, and left them with no choice but to rebel through religious teaching.

No, Islam is inherently evil my friends. Please, divert your attention from any imperialist meddling into Syria and Egypt, those places are hell-holes because of Islam, not because of 20th century policy by France and other western nations.
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Of course! See many example if liberal democratic muslim countries like... Oh wait...
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>>670884
>Is Islam incompatible with western liberal democracy?

Of course it is. It, like all religions of Abraham, cannot be reconciled with a secular and individual rights based democracy without being watered down.

>What can be done

Tell the Saudis to stop fucking pumping Wahhabism into the middle east.
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>>671711
I still can't find the source of the data for Indonesia.
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>>676052
Iranian here, it is a theocracy because of scary brown people being savages. Islam is not Iranian, the Arabs have been forcing it upon us since they came to our lands, then their final blow was taking over when there was a power vacuum during the turmoil that happened during all that president-shah beef. Operation Ajax was a very small contributor to their takeover, it actually did very little to put the shah back in power, but of course the Arab-blooded Muslims in power used Western meddling as a scapegoat. It wasn't western boots on the ground that ousted the shah, Islam would have came to dominate our nation either way. I would recommend avoiding letting them gain influence at all costs.

It's kind of funny to hear that westerners believe what is essentially Muslim propaganda (that the US soley fucked up the middle East). I'm imagining some Arab guy sitting there wringing his hands as he writes history books and articles. Although if you look more into it it has to do with the whole divide you guys have in your societies. Someone is working to divide you all, and many of you yourselves are capitulating. I find it strange, sort of a societal suicide.
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>>676345
>Someone is working to divide you all, and many of you yourselves are capitulating. I find it strange, sort of a societal suicide.

That depends on what you mean by "you"; in case you hadn't noticed, there's a significant and growing portion of the population that is very, very upset with the current state of affairs and those who perpetuate it, from prime ministers to student activists to just the average man on the street. If things keep going this way, we're going to see a clandestine revival of the fucking Freikorps before this summer ends and/or the EU in full nuclear meltdown.
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>>670884
Probably not Islam is spread by the sword.
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>>676079
>It, like all religions of Abraham, cannot be reconciled with a secular and individual rights based democracy without being watered down.
>tfw when the ancient Church itself had secular measures implemented in it's codes.
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>>676052
>Muh imperialism
the middle east was peaceful before that right they never had tribal wars
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>>676345
>Someone is working to divide you all, and many of you yourselves are capitulating. I find it strange, sort of a societal suicide.

Gee. I fucking wonder who. I'm clueless.
>>
Some cultures do not mix at all, hell, most would rather be the dominant in the area they dwell.
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