It was horrible and it never would have happened if it weren't for greedy Protestant aristocrats and the usurers that supported them. All those regions who were fighting on the Protestant side are now all strongly atheist.
>>654328 >implying that Ferdinand wasn't an intolerant shithead who wanted to reverse the clocks back 100 years on Protestant toleration in the HRE >implying it matters anyway considering that the entire war was just an excuse to have a fight between Habsburgs and every else
>>654379 >The HRE was never much to begin with. It was a hell of a lot more cohesive before the protestant reformation. Even with the Swiss and relatively autonomy amongst much of it, the Kleinstaaterei is proof of the incoherence caused by the destruction and division in the 30 Years War.
What would be a good book about this war? Topics of interest: >Rise of the Swedish Empire >Regular dude's point of view >Tactics and strategy of big guys, Gustav II Adolf was a cool guy >Religious madness of the 17th century, antichrists everywhere >Politics politics politics
>read about the european wars of religion >initially sympathize with the protestants (underdogs, opressed, rebelling against authority, have legitimate greivances ect) >the moment they have even the slightest bit of even footing they wind up being every bit as brutal and monstrous as the catholics
30 Years War is so goddamn depressing. I know it's a common statement that 'there are no good guys in war blah blah blah' but holy shit does that rule really apply 100% for this one.
>>654981 This is why I avoided saying catholic side. Calling them catholic and protestant side don't make much sense once you leave the czech stage of the war, anyways. I prefer something in the lines of pro-Habsburg and anti-Habsburg or even better pro-imperial and anti-imperial like in >>654946
The Thirty Years War killed approx 10% of the population of the whole of Europe.
I will repeat that, approx 10% of the population of the whole of Europe.
The Thirty Years War was started on religious grounds, fact. I'll be open and honest and acknowledge that it morphed into a war that included state and nationalistic rivalries as part of the motivation of the combatants, but then again those rivalries were also mixed up with religious identifiers. Religious differences were a fundamental part of the motivations for the Thirty Years War, fact.
The Thirty Years War is clearly, CLEARLY, one of the most enormous disasters to ever impact on Europe. Just to put it into context 10% of the population of the whole of Europe today is over 70 million.
The Thirty Years War was worse than Communism, it was worse than Nazism, it was worse than than WW2 or WW1 in Europe.
>>655106 >AND it was caused by religion. Don't you think it seemed likely that a war of its kind would of erupted without religion. Low crop yields, tension between n. and s. Europe plus unstable HRE 'government' (you know what I mean). Makes it likely that a war would of broken out anyway, but I dunno :l
>>654778 The Thirty Years War: Europe's Tragedy by Peter H. Wilson is pretty good if you're fine with 800+ page books. It gives a big-picture outlook, however, so if you're looking for detailed descriptions of particular campaigns it might not be what you're looking for.
It does spend about 250 pages just explaining the political situation in Europe though.
>>655193 Bohemia really only participated as its own power from 1618 to 1620, after which the Imperial/Liga forces had crushed them. Saxony was initially on the Imperial side, but thanks to the absurdly heavy-handed nature of the Edict of Restitution in 1629 (meant to punish the rebels and their supporters) and the devastation caused by Wallenstein, Saxony and much of the rest of Northern Germany turned against the Emperor once Sweden joined in.
>>655460 holy shit I remember seeing that book in the waiting room at my dentists office. I was reading the description of the plot on the back (a bunch of heavily armed american rednecks somehow go back in time by accident and wind up saving civilians from being massacred during the 30 years war) and just burst out laughing
I really wish I'd actually read it. It looks so fucking awesome
>>655460 >>655504 >>655619 Holy shit I read the shit out of this series in middle and high school. Pretty good stuff from what I remember, my favorite was 1634 the baltic war with ironclads rekt Hamburg. Basic premise is the americans ally gustave adolph and the swedes. They are presented as good boys who dindu etc. Dont know how accurate that is. Pretty sure there are stull books being published, or short story compilations. Anyone else hear read this?
>>655649 It was a post dark age power vacuum left after Black Death filled with basically the exact same occult tendencies minus the Pope, which is why it fragmented and finally disintegrated. The Papacy is back to power levels it only dreamed of 4 centuries ago. History will probably repeat. The world always needs more history.
>>656991 Ehh all his means of procurement did was spread the devastation of the war to everyone and massively expand the size of the Imperial Army without really changing the amount of men they could bring to bear in a pitched battle.
Granted, he was quite a good general. But his "go get your pay from the nearest town" means of supplying his men was needlessly destructive.
>>655106 The war wasnt about religion though. A lot of things can start a war, it doesnt mean they are the motivating factor between the war. Considering there were alliances between Protestants and Catholics to fight Catholics or Protestants. The conflict marked the beginning of a meme Nationalistic Identity that would influence the rest of the conflicts in history. To say the war was about religion is something only a credulous edgelord would believe
>>655438 What? France massively supported the Protestant side, got Sweden to join, and then joined itself and fought the last 10 years, spectacularly defeating the Spanish and Austrians, asserting its military dominance, and turning Germany into a French protectorate.
France came out of the 30 Years War like America out of WW2, as the hegemonic power of a new Europe.
>>655438 This is so wrong. The only country the 30-years-war benefited clearly was France, after the war they are the dominant political and military force in Europe all the way up to defeat of Napoleon.
A time of religion and war Legends tell the tale of a lion This beast in the shape of a man With a dream to rule sea and land And all those who stand in his way Will die by God and victorious arms With the righteous that follows him south Once more set ashore to war Legends have taught battles fought This lion has no fear at heart Lion come forth come from the north Come from the noooorth
A storm over Europe unleashed Dawn of war a trail of destruction The power of Rome won't prevail See the catholics shiver and shake The future of warfare unveiled Showed the way that we still walk today
>>655193 >Bohemia started the whole thing, but most of the other protestant countries refused to help in the early stages of the war (except Palatinate, Bohemian estates elected Elector Palatine as their new king) and got defeated
>Saxony Saxony made peace with emperor and was bribed by originally Bohemian Lusatia in 1635
>>663041 definitely check out the one by Peter H. Wilson then. It still gets confusing at the end because all the "main" characters die off, but the guy spends 260 pages explaining the situation behind every belligerent and the general situation leading up to war.
>>670021 I'm more surprised they could even afford it all. Everyone was spending well beyond their means for the entire war and pretty much the entire thing ran on credit, despite the fact that nobody could reasonably afford to repay their loans. I don't understand how the hell it could be sustained for that long.
>>670559 ehh that probably had a lot to do with keeping confidence in the government to allow the loans to continue as well as the fairly amicable terms of the Peace of Westphalia.
Suddenly deciding you're going to kill a bunch of people you owe money is going to make all your creditors pretty nervous and far less willing to lend to you again. Plus, who are you going to kill all those mercenaries with? Local levies weren't going to be enough to face the mercenaries, particularly in the more devastated regions.
Really the way the peace treaty handled it was probably the best - have the troops just garrisoned on location until they could be paid off and demobilized.
>s a nation, Sweden had been at war since 1600. Therefore, she was forced to develop her natural resources. The nation’s normal revenue for 1620 would have been 1.5 million silver thaler. This was insufficient to sustain an input into war. To raise revenue, Gustavus Adolphus sold off or pawned crown land and by 1650, 60% of what had been ancient royal taxes were in private hands.
>Sweden also exploited to the full her excellent copper and iron deposits which found a ready market in Europe. Another way Sweden found to reduce her war costs was to train her army to live off of the land thereby reducing the supply issue for an army on the march.
>Spain had had serious financial problems during the reign of Philip II, but by one way or another, she managed to muddle her way through the Thirty Years War regardless of the further financial problems she had to face.
> In 1627, Spain was bankrupt. To counter this, Spain took to minting copper coins called vellon. These had much less value that silver coins. Ironically, the copper for the vellon came from Protestant Sweden and the purchase of this commodity did a great deal to boost Sweden’s economy.
>>671080 It wasn't exactly that simple - the pillaging for the most part was the result of the procurement system that was standard for the time.
Outside of a few unfortunate cases (Magdeburg being one of the more extreme cases), it wasn't just outright pillaging, but rather an army coming upon a town and requesting some kind of payment, with the damage done largely being either sanctioned by the government the army belonged to or the endemic kind of damage you see happen with large groups of soldiers at the time.
They couldn't reasonably persecute former soldiers for the damage done by the war because rulers weren't able to distance themselves from the culpability. In the eyes of the people, those men were arguably no more responsible for the atrocities committed than anyone else who bankrolled the war, so it'd be pretty easy to make the logical leap from going after former soldiers to going after creditors, especially when it meant getting rid of your debts.
>>670616 Honestly, protestantism wouldn't even exist if the pope wasn't a total cunt to Luther who got offended by the idea that you maybe shouldn't fucking sell people their place into heaven or that people should be allowed to hear in Bible in their own fucking language.
>>658254 A victory without correct statistics is worse than a well documented defeat! If we neglect order because of fighting it would not be a victory anyways, since we have foresaken ourselves. An Endsieg with untidy or non-existent paperwork ist just French.
>>666599 While Brandenburg was in a favourable position following the treaty of Westphalia they had suffered immensely during the war. So much that some regions like the Uckermark had become virtually deserted.
Berlin lost about half its original population and many steps were taken to repopulate the country, including the settlement of 20k religious refugees from France. By 1700 about a quarter of Berlin's population was of French origin.
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