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why are Scots considered Celtic?
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

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maybe this is an outright dumb question, and if it is, ill move on with my previously ignorant self, but what makes the Scottish people not more Anglo than Celt?
they:
>speak not only English mostly, but even have their own Anglic language, Scots, that is spoken more than Scottish Gaelic
>have historical ties to Anglo-Saxon kingdoms like Northumbria
>are Protestant
and overall have been buddies with the English through most of their recent history

what am i missing that makes them Celtic?
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>>652894
This map is pretty much the divide you will see between catholic/protestant, highland/lowland, celtic/anglo influenced etc.

Ofc thats historically speaking, nowadays, after the industrial revolution, there are large mixed populations in places like Glasgow and Edinburgh.

And if you look closely you'll also notice that the green half, which used to have a population equal to the pale half, is now almost completely depopulated.

Anglo fucking shits.

t. Scot
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>>652905
Forgot pic. I bet the Anglos did this.
>>
Norse-Gaelic settlement that outbred/genocided the Picts (also considered Celtic), and were only slightly colonized by Anglos. By slightly, I mean enough that they made an impact but not enough to overtake them. Also, you seem to have a less than elementary understanding and could have found this info easily. People are already being spoiled by /his/.
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>>652905
so Highlanders are Celtic, whereas Lowlanders are basically Anglos?
looking at languages, that makes sense, you've got Gaelic in the northwest, and Scots in the southeast.
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>>652912
i mean culturally. typically non-British men don't even know Scots exists.
genetics really means nothing the way i see it, what makes them be seen as a variety of Celt and not Anglo?
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>>652922
Well the lowlanders are sort of Scots who decided they wanted to be Anglos and copied them, rather than actual Anglos (though I'd reckon people in the borders are as much English as Scottish).

Also nowadays you wont notice it, but in the past there was a bit of a distinction between the Islanders (me) and the Highlanders (sheep shaggers). This is because the Isles were either independent or largely autonomous for several centuries.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles
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>>652947
nifty, i honestly fear for these cultural holdouts. to think that so many of these wonders will disappear with globalization and time is frightening. even the great tongues will feel the need to squash others just to stay alive.
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>>652955
Most of the wonders are already gone, so much of the culture was destroyed by the lowlanders after the 1745 Jacobite rising, which put such a fear of the Gaels into the rest of the country that they spent 200 years trying to stamp the culture out. Only in the past few decades has the course been reversed, and has effort been put back into safeguarding what's left and expanding the reach of the remaining knowledge.
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>>652968
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>>652911
We did and it was totally justified, the Highlands look real pretty without fucking jock cunts running about the place losing their arms to heroin and shit
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>>653033
Fuck you jus say pal?
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>>653045
FUCKIN YEAH DICKHEAD

YA FUCKIN GAY
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>>652894
Scotland was once almost entirely Gaelic
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>>652894
Define Celtic first maybe? There are several definitions, some competing, some supporting each other. You have cultural Celts, language Celts, geographic Celts, biological Celts, those called Celts by others, those who named themselves Celts, Insular Celts, Ibero-Celts, Central European Celts, the list goes on.

Some have more than one of the above in their mixture, some have different ones from others, some have the same but never met, others have different and lived next door.
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>>652894
Language family ancestry, mate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages
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>>652922
It could be a language shift phenomena.
Idk I need a generic marker map
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>>653802
But only a couple rural highlands speak it now. All the rest is Anglic Germanic.
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>>653108
Culturally Celtic, the one that matters.
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>>652894
All ethnic identities are based in part on how people view themselves.

Tunisian Arabs have the same claims to bring Punic as Scots have to bring Celtic, but due to historic accident (and potentially the late arrival of nationalism to the Islamic world), Tunisian Arabs do not speak or identify as Punic, which means that modern Tunisians cannot be considered a Punic people.
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>>653108
>Culturally Celtic, the one that matters.
Culturally celtic is the only one that exists currently, and some of those never existed.
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>>652894
that pic is highly arrousing
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>>652947
>Islanders (me)
Do you have Gaidhlig?

I speak Irish and I always wanted to see if I could hold a conversation with a scot. Apparently it's easier for ulster cunts.
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>>653108
>Biological Celts

I want /pol/ to leave
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>>654228
There are several gaelic words and phrases still scattered around the lowland scots dialect. Although we do essentially speak germanic language, it is an adopted language.

It's also worth noting that although certain English dialects are dying out, the glaswegian accent is flourishing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34832083

Don't listen to the unionist disinfo shills in this thread. Scottish culture is quite different from England.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRnQ8lYcvFU&list=LLRKQZUvD4qLkJ1quOab2l_w&index=6

Pretty good TED talk about Scots if you've got a spare 15 minutes
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>>654298
Tha me a' bruidheann beagan Gaidhlig, or bha sinn ga ionnsachadh e san sgoil, ach cha bhi mi ga cleachdadh e moran na laithean seo. Agus chan eil fios agam ciamar a' dean thu strach air a' choimpiutair.
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>>654340

>biology is nazism

Ello Reddit! This might be news to you but different groups of people have different DNA.
Proto-Celts had their own even if it wasn't very special compared to other Central Europeans.
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>>652968
>Jacobite

LONG LIVE THE TRUE KING
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>>652894

Because the tribe known as the Scots who colonized and displaced many of the Pictish natives hailed from Ireland.

The Picts were Celts too though, so whatever.
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>>654452
A guy with a "Celtic" haplogroup could fully Anglizised and that haplogroup would mean fuck all.
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>>654414
>An mothú nuair a thuigeann mé tú

Céard é "Strach"? an "fada" Albainnis é?

Más é, is féidir ctrl+alt+an litir a bhrúigh, ach ceapaim go bhfuil an fada drom ar ais in Gáidhlig na hAlbainn.
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>>654452
""""""Celtic"""""" genes existed long before Celtic culture and language. An Irishman is more similar to an Englishman than to an ancient Gaul
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It all comes down to who dominated the country at any given time, after the Gaels entered the country they landed in the Highlands and uprooted the Picts, establishing themselves in the North giving birth to the Kingdom of Alba.

Eventually with the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria in a weakened state along with the Anglo-Saxon and Brythonic Kingdom of Strathclyde both in weak positions, the Gaels made their advance south, conquering this land and establishing the modern kingdom of Scotland around the year 900, however they failed to uproot the Lowland populace who remained in the country with their own countries, despite the elite of the country and the highlands speaking Gaelic and being of Gaelic origin.

However around 1286 the death of Malcom III led to both the Scottish Wars of Independence and a serious succession crisis, and coming out on top of this struggle was Robert the Bruce, a Lowland Scot with a faint connection to the Gaelic monarchy, of both Scots and Norman stock, and after his victory and reestablishment of his Kingdom lowland Scots became the dominant group, though Norman became the language of the royal Court, Middle English which would eventually evolve in modern English and the Scots dialect eventually became the language of the elite too when the Stuarts rose to power in the 1300s.


Clans map highlights the split between the two peoples fairly accurately, despite having a lower population density the Highlands were divided into far more groups of warring clans, while the Lowlands with a larger area and population tended to be dominated by a smaller group of landed families, even a difference in naming convention is noticeable in areas.
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>>654594
Despite the Highland clearances of the 18th and 19th centuries reducing the population of the Highlanders further, by forcing them of their land (which had largely been usurped by the Lowland elite at this point) which they worked through farming, when it realised farming livestock in the region was far more profitable, and leading to a mass exodus to the colonies and the USA (where today more descendants live today than in the UK) the difference is still noticeable on modern halotype maps.
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>>654604
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>>654604
>>654606

>I like to post eupedia maps which I don't understand to prove my point
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>>654569
>Mo aodainn nuair a' tha me gad thuigse

Seo a' tha strach.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_accent

Cha bheill fios agam gum bidh na h-Eireannaich a' chleachdadh e, agus chan eil fios agam ciamar am bith thu ga dheanamh air pios cac keyboard sasannach.
>>
>>
Hwa willaþ her þe þa Bryttas læfen?
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>>652905
Most of the highlands and islands are protestant m8
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>>652947
>Someone else from the islands on /his/

Co as a tha thu? S'e Leodhasach a th'unnam sa
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>>654830
Now they are. They also all speak Scots/English now.
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>>652894

>Language + Religion = Ethnicity

Even the English are far more Celtic than Germanic
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>>654836
>>654638
>>654569
>>654414
how wonderful to see people speaking celtic languages on the internet. maybe all is not yet lost
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>>652894
Taking Braveheart seriously at this point

>which is mostly what the Indy campaign and SNP seems to be based on
>>
>yfw the Irish are basically pre-Indo-Europeans

>plus the best parts of the rest of Europe's migrants

Hah. Basque and Irish are the only aboriginals in Europe. Migrants out.
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>>655061
>speaks an IndoEuro language
>every aspect in culture is IndoEuro
>claims to be autochtonous
get rekt foreigner
t. Uralic
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>>655077

>culture

Our culture has been part of Europe since forever. Influenced by it, and influencing it in turn. The people are descendants of the pre-Indo-Europeans in a way that most populations of Europe are not, like the Basque. We are also descended from most of the later migrants to Europe, who usually made it to the islands, particularly the Celts, and later the Norse.

Plus you have to remember the eight hundred years of (honestly, mostly successful) attempts to change that culture to be another part of the British mix.
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>>655061

Irish are actually pretty IE genetically. Basques got a little fugged by IE men so they carry the same paternal marker as Indo-European horse nomads from Russia whose descendants live in Ireland now these days.
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>>655104

Traditionally, the Y-DNA comes from the invaders, while the mt-DNA comes from the locals. It's no surprise that paternal markers come from recent migrants.

This is different in situations where the ethnic cleansing of natives was considered more prudent, of course.
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>>655091
Poppycock based on what every current nationality of Europe can claim to have it's roots in the very first populations on the continent. What are the actual features in Irish culture that precede the IndoEuros?
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>>654783
kek
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>>655113

Are you looking for cultural or physiological traits? These would be hard to find, since Ireland is now within the general European mix for culture, physiology, and genetics, it's less dominated by IE-DNA than average.

Like I said from the start, we also have the DNA from all the migrants to Europe.
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>>655061

No, the modern Irish displaced the original inhabitants of the Islands during the Indo-European migrations.

Ireland - Eire - Arya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89riu#Name_and_etymology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic_language
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>>655141
Cultural of course, DNA and physiological traits will always be insignificant in what makes an ethnic identity.
Right now your claims of being the indigenous of Europe, like the Basque aren't exactly waterproof. Rather it seems to me that a greater amount of previous populations legacy survived in Ireland, which is just an interesting sidenote in history
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>>655189
>DNA and physiological traits will always be insignificant in what makes an ethnic identity

LOL
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>>655212
Please give me an example of DNA being one of the cornerstones of a national conscousness
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>>655186

Not displaced, overwrote would be a better description, I think. Displaced implies they first got rid of the natives, but they didn't, they married them.

>>655189

Then the history of modern Irish culture can be seen in the full light of history, we have our prehistory; then eight hundred years of being mostly peacefully Christianized while maintaining local traditions (mostly based around cattle rustling); eight hundred years of being British dominated; and a hundred years of being a mostly neutral western European Atlantic state without a history of supplying colonialism.

We're actually pretty unique; the only country in the world with a lower population now than two hundred years ago; a part of the Anglosphere, but also a former colony of Britain.
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>>655301
>Not displaced, overwrote would be a better description

Pretty much the case in any mass migration of people. The original people don't just disappear.
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>>655322
>laughing Hitlers.jpg
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>>655322

But there are degrees.

North America was a wholesale exportation of English communities; Latin America was the result of the adventures of second sons.
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>>655225

>national conscousness
>ethnicity

Nuh uh.

I don't care how much I modify my behavior, belief system, customs, style; I cannot ever belong to the Bantu ethnic group because I am not fucking black.

End of story bud.
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>>655373
Your children already could though, if they'd be halfblood.
But alright, I admit I was being eurocentric, didn't thought of other races. So basically inside a common race the physiology is insignificant, and slight differences in Y- and mt-DNA even more
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>>655373

So if national consciousness is defined by ethnicity, then members of another ethnicity cannot be part of that nationality?

But if nationality is defined by something else, then ethnicity is not relevant?
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>>655322
Overall, you're right. It was more like foreign warrior aristocracy marrying the local nobility and leaving the peasants alone. Often times people would adopt the language and culture of their rulers, or the rulers would accept the language of their new subjects to blend in better.

The widescale exterminations of the modern era make us think that it was always this way
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>>652926
>typically non-British men don't even know Scots exists.
Scots are famous the world over, more so than Englishmen.

t. Canuck
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>>655422
>So if national consciousness is defined by ethnicity

where did I imply that?

Are you saying black people can't be Americans?

>>655409

>eurocentric

Germany has always been defined by the presence of Germans.

Ireland and North Ireland are separated along ethnic lines.

France get's it's name from the Frankish ethnic group.
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>>655446
>where did I imply that?

When you said that if national identity were based on being Bantu, nothing a non-Bantu could do would make them part of that national identity.

>Are you saying black people can't be Americans?

I'm saying they can. American is defined as 'born in the USA', it does not involve any ethnicity.
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>>655455

>I have the reading comprehension of a middleschooler

Bantu ETHNIC GROUP
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>>655446

>Germany has always been defined by the presence of Germans.

Yes, but German-ness has never been strictly about ethnicity, it was also a cultural phenomenon.

>Ireland and North Ireland are separated along ethnic lines.

No. I mean, I don't even, it was basic imperialist gerrymandering, not ethnic, not even religious.

>>655459

>>655373
>I don't care how much I modify my behavior, belief system, customs, style; I cannot ever belong to the Bantu ethnic group because I am not fucking black.
>End of story bud.

This was not you?


We can define national identity however we like. If you choose to make it about ethnicity, then it is. If you choose to make it about culture, then it is.
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>Bantu
>Ethnic group
This thread is retarded.

Also, yes, there are non-Black Bantus.
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>>655480
>has never been strictly about ethnicity, it was also a cultural phenomenon.

can we please just say race already?

what part about

>national identity
>ethnicity

lead you to believe that I was implying they were somehow identical?
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Are any Scots Gaelic speakers still here?
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>>655486
>Also, yes, there are non-Black Bantus.

Non-black Bantus?

I don't even. So far as to.
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>>655500
Bajunis, Omanis and Malagasy, and that's just in the Swahiliphones.
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>>655496

>can we please just say race already?

If race were really the most neutral term to use, I would use it. Ethnicity is better, so as not to confuse what we know about human populations today with what nineteenth century slavery and colonial apologists knew about human populations.

>lead you to believe that I was implying they were somehow identical?

The part where anon said

>>I don't care how much I modify my behavior, belief system, customs, style; I cannot ever belong to the Bantu ethnic group because I am not fucking black.

>>End of story bud.

If I missed the point, explain it now.
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>>655508

They're not black? Why not?
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>>655499
i can say prayers as gaeilge if that helps :^)
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>>655516
Bajunis are descended from Persian sailors, with some admixture of Arabs, Indonesians.

Omanis are from Oman.

Malagasy are descended from Indonesians.
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>>654569
cad an foc angela merkel ag dèanamh sa pictiur?
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>>655541
>angela merkel
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>>655541
If you could indulge me, I'm curious how you say "His/Her Majesty's Ship" in Gaelic.

Or if any other Scottish Gaelic speaker could answer.
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>>655555
fucking nice numbers mo dubh daoine

majesty is soilse so I suppose it'd be "a soilse long" since a is applied to both male and female
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>>655555
checked
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>>655443
He means the language, not the people, and the language is indeed obscure as fuck.

Also being canadian means you're basically british.

t. non-anglo
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>>655531

So they're not Bantu by descent, they speak Bantu derived languages?
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>>655355
No historical event can be compared to the apocalypse unleashed when old world diseases arrived to the new one.
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>>655745

Actually, I think the black plague could give a good comparison.

But you're right, in any metric, the Americas after contact is without peer in history. Holy hell, people have lived through apocalypses in real-life.
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>>655758
>I think the black plague could give a good comparison

It's not. The estimated % of deaths are by no means comparable. And it's not like europe didn't suffer plague before. Not to mention that the black death effects were in some ways positive in the long run for the nations that suffered it. All in all, they're not the same. Black Plague is just the more similar thing in our european collective memory so it's natural that it comes to our mind when we hear about disease killing so much people.
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>>655774

In terms of the way the infection spread, and how it was a result of greater connectivity due to the opening of the silk road.

I'm not arguing that the New-Old World interaction was a lot worse, it was. It's just that the Black Plague is the closest to it, a distant second place.
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>>655077
The Uralic language family actually started spreading later than the Indo-European one... lad

t. Finn
>>
Éireannach anseo.

Albannach are literally the same people as us, but an Sasanach síoraí has convinced many of them that they are 14/88 Anglo-Saxon Germans loyal to the """British""" Crown.

It's a sad case, especially in Occupied Ulster; where countless Unionists have Gaelic surnames, some retaining the "Mac".
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>>655373
You can be engrained so heavily into Bantu culture that to call yourself anything else would be kidding yourself.

>>654377
Scots is firmly a Germanic language, taken from Northumbrian Old English.

>>654921
A culture is what makes someone Celtic, not genetics
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>>655373
Not you, but what about a hypothetical group of white infants adopted by a Xhosa village?
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>>655737
Bantu is a linguistic group and nothing more
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>>655737
Bantu is a language group. "Bantu by descent" is a non-nonsensical statement.
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>>655774
You could not be more wrong. Stop this bullshit.

The black plague was devastating, over 50% of semany countries populations were gone, entire communities were wiped out across the entire erasian continent. It took generations to recover, and ler to massive social change.

And it was just one of the mega plagues that hit eurasia. The plague of justinian ravaged the byzantine empire, estimated to have killed at least a third of the capital.

Yes, the new world plagues were probably worse, but not by as much as you are implying. Many areas of the new world have primarily native populations. From mexico to venezuela peru to bolivia . In fact, its only the anglophone colonies where natives are not a major component of the population.

Stop claiming the eurasian megaplagues were not comparable to the new world ones. They definitely are. If the black plague had been slightly worse, it could very easily have been europe that was completely depopulated. Also, the mongols actively spread the plague by catapulting corpses into beseiged cities throughout eurasia, yersinia pestis is thought to have originally been a disease of rodents in yunnan province of china that the monggolss pucked up on their campaigns thereand inadvertantly spead westwards. The mongols trashed the entire middle east, to the point that agriculture and infrastructure has still not revovered to this very day.In some parts, There is even less than 2 centuries between the old world and new world plagues anyway. The mongol invasion of eurasia and spread of plague are a prime comparison to the new world colonisation and spread of plague by europeans.
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>>659310
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=YiHHnV08ebkC&pg=PA21

Austin Alchon, Suzanne (2003).A pest in the land: new world epidemics in a global perspective. University of New Mexico Press. p.21
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>>655696
Dis-moé ca en face criss de fifon pis j'te jure qui va t'manquer une bunch de dents.
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>>652912
>Norse-Gaelic settlement that outbred/genocided the Picts

Actually, that theory is no longer accepted.
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>>654473
This is also no longer accepted.
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>>655036
Why are saying things you know to be retarded?
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>>657926
>>657933

Holy shit. If you don't know just don't say anything. Bantu/Niger-Congo descend from a population from the Cameroon-area which largely displaced other Africans wherever they went.
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>>660107
>>660117
Citations?
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>>660153
Alex Woolf's Pictland to Alba is a good start, as are other books in that series.
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>>660153
Basically, the Picts were not killed off.

There is no archaeological evidence to support mass killings of this kind, and the sole reason this theory is put forward is due to a very dubious Medieval manuscript which claims Kenneth MacAlpine invited all the Picts to a feast and massacred them.

In actuality, it seems that Norse settlement pushed Gaelic noble families into the Pictish court, and that a coup forced two young princes into exile in Ireland.

By the time they were restored they were naturalised Gaels and they went on to rule about 75 years between them. Hence, Gaelic became the dominant culture in Pictland and slowly replaced it through creolisation.
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>>655555

An Soitheach Rìgheal would be "the royal ship". Would be pronounced something like "Seh-och ree-ol"

The King/Queen's ship would be "An soitheach a Rìgh/Bhanrìgh"

Can't think of a word for majesty in Gaidhlig that would make sense in this context, so can't give an exact translation.
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>>660153
Additionally, it's theorised the Gaels were in fact Picts or Britons that adopted Gaelic culture due to close interactions with Ireland.
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>>655979
I really hope I'm not from the literally same people as you.
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>>657343
>A culture is what makes someone Celtic, not genetics
t. DeShawn McArthur
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Because expressions like 'Celtic fringe' and 'Celtic nations' are really English statements about England. Like the Greeks with their barbarians, or the Romans with their Celts, the English invented an other in order to use them as a backdrop to recognise themselves.

The primary thing Scotland, Wales and Ireland have in common isn't Celticity — however that's defined, whether through ethnicity or abstract art — but their experience of English expansion.

The chit-chat about ethnicity is largely a distraction because, if you look at the history, Scots have never really claimed ethnic unity. There are highlanders, the lowlanders, the picts, the celts, the sheepshaggers and on it goes (and some of those identify themselves on an ethnic basis), but collectively 'Scots' as a national identity is located more in history and achievement than in biology or language.

The Anglos, on the other hand, have a muddle. They have their projections of what 'the Celts' are (and what the Anglos are not) and they have a twisted muddle where British is used interchangeably with English, but usually for things they think of as the best part of their identities… and they have English, where they nest some of their worst.

It's all very confusing.
>>
>>660199
Did Scotland use a unique prefix like HMS for its ships when it was independent?

I was just curious how they might name things if Gaelic was used alongside English.
>>
>>660327
The Scottish Kings were mostly speaking English from around 1100 onwards, so I'd imagine the Royal Scots Navy used HMS as well. May be wrong there though.
>>
>>660199
What about mórachd or móralachd?
>>
>>660362
What were the styles of the Scottish kings? Not "His Majesty"?
>>
>>660362
I think the whole HMS prefix only really came in the 17th century.
>>
>>660391
No, "King of Scots/Rex Scottorum"
>>
>>660391
The King of Scots was "Your Grace."

So His Grace's Ship in Gaelic might be what you want.
>>
>>660384
Very possibly, I must admit I don't know those words though.

>>660391
I think the old style would be
Coinneach mac Maoil Chaluim, Rí na h-Albannaich. (Kenneth, son of Malcolm, King of the Scots)

I think later on they began styling themselves in Latin more, so it would be Kenneth Dei gratia rex Scotum. (Kenneth, by the grace of God King of the Scots)
>>
>>660437
Gotcha.
>>
>>660134
The Xhosa are literally 40-60% Khoisan by descent
>>
>>652911
>Firth of Forth
Holy shit what is this phonetic sorcery?

I'm going to make non-Anglos I know repeat "The first three fourths fit through the Firth of Forth.
>>
>>662124
The Firth of Forth is a fjord flowing from Fife following the path formed by the foregone Forth glacier
>>
>>660213
Are the niggers in the US supposed to be at all Bantu?
>>
What was Scottish or Celtic nobility like before the arrival of the English?
>>
>>662552
More th less f m8.
>>
>>660213
But he's right. Do you think all Russians descend from early Slavic tribes? Or that all Turks descend from slant eyed nomadic conquerors? Linguistic and cultural continuum are way more important to ethnic identity than genetics.
>>
Celts>Celto-Iberians>Gaels>Dal Riada Gaels
>>
>>662865
Fuck off, /pol/
>>
>>655531
BANTUS ARE HEBREWS!!!!!!!
>>
>>652894
>but what makes the Scottish people not more Anglo than Celt

Are you retarded? "Scoti" is literally latin for gael.
>>
>>654400

>CenturionRyan
>>
>>663979
He was saying race defined culture, and I'm asking if that holds true everywhere.
>>
>>664196
And?
>>
>>660134
That's largely true, but not all-engrossing.

Many Bantu individuals are descended from migrants from elsewhere. The Tutsi are the best example.
>>
>The Scottish people (Scots: Scots Fowk, Scottish Gaelic: Albannaich), or Scots, are a nation and socially defined ethnic group resident in Scotland. Historically, they emerged from an amalgamation of two groups—the Picts and Gaels—who founded the Kingdom of Scotland (or Alba) in the 9th century, and thought to have been ethnolinguistically Celts. Later, the neighbouring Cumbrian Britons, who also spoke a Celtic language, as well as Germanic-speaking Anglo-Saxons and Norse, were incorporated into the Scottish nation

>In modern use, "Scottish people" or "Scots" is used to refer to anyone whose linguistic, cultural, family ancestral or genetic origins are from within Scotland.

Yeah, the "Scots" are an pretty much extinct celtic people. The Scottish are who live in Scotland today.
>>
>>665212
Why are they extinct? Your citation says they're a group resident in Scotland right now.
>>
>>665212
The fuck you mean "extinct"?
>>
>>665259
>>665288

Well, not extinct but Scots is only spoken as a native language by speakers
110,000–125,000 people.
>>
>>665306

by 111,00-125,000 people*
>>
>>665306
>>665308
Scots is spoken by way, way, way more than 125, 000.

Do you mean Gaelic?
>>
>>665329

Native speakers according to wikipedia: 110,000–125,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language
>>
>>665359
Well then wikipedia's full of shit.
>>
>>652894
It's only independence babbies that play up LE PROUD FREE SCOTCH PEOPLE OPPRESSED BY THE ENGLISH. We civilised people in Edinburgh know that 99% of our culture and makeup is shared with the English. And they put fucking hurdy-gurdy never-spoken-here-in-a-thousand-years Gaelic on the roadsigns! Embarassing.
>>
Scots isn't a fucking language by the way, it's a thick accent and some slang words.
>>
>>665619
>hello, I am from """""""""""""""Edinburgh"""""""""""""""""
>>
>>665623
I'm sorry, good sir, but I haven't the slightest clue what you mean.
>>
>>655570
Don't know about Scottish gaelic but in Irish it would be "long an rí/banríon" basically the king's/queen's ship. There's no equivalent term to "her majesty" as far as I'm aware, there isn't much of a courtly culture in Ireland.

long riada means royal ship and it's nicer sounding in Irish
>>
>>665634
>hello, I am """""""""""""Scottish.""""""""""""
>>
>>665359
>>665329
>>665308
>>665306
>>665212
Scots is Anglic, Germanic.

Not Celtic.
>>
>>666089
Linguistically, yes, culturally it's debatable. I'd say no.
>>
>>666095
The linguistics are the core of it.
It's not Celtic linguistically, and it's there because of Anglo-Saxon influence. It really isn't.
>>
>>666137
Yes, and then it evolved within a Celtic milieu. It is spoken by millions of Celtic people. That makes it culturally Celtic.

I mean you appreciate that culture can actually adapt and change over time, right?

You are also aware that "Celtic" as a linguistic term is also completely arbitrary, right?
>>
>>666163
But how are they Celtic if something as crucial as language isn't Celtic? Things like that matter, you're not Celtic just because, it involves things like language.

Also, Celtic languages are an actual branch in the Indo European family, it's concrete.

https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages
>>
>>666185
Yes, but there's way more to Celtic culture than just speaking a Celtic language, it's about sharing an identity with Celtic peoples of history.

Just to say that anyone who speaks English as their first language or is even a monolingual English speaker isn't Celtic is really just another attempt to marginalise that identity, massively important in this post-colonial era.

And I never claimed that Celtic languages didn't exist, I just pointed out the fact that "Celtic" as a linguistic term is quite arbitrary. If scholars were approaching it today, for example, they'd probably call it "Atlantic", rather than "Celtic".
>>
>>666163
Ethnicity is a social construct.
>>
>>666185
And especially when it comes to Scots. I mean it's in the name, SCOTS.

Scotland and the Scottish are Celtic, hence anything associated with that culture can be Celtic.
>>
>>666274
That doesn't mean it can't be real.
>>
>>666277
But Scottish culture has, certainly in the lowlands, become more Anglic than Celtic.
France isn't Celtic because it used to be Gaul, it's firmly Latin.
>>
>>666313
>France isn't Celtic because it used to be Gaul

I would disagree, and feel that's entirely your own opinion. Ultimately, Scots are Celtic because they've always been Celtic and because they choose to keep identifying as Celtic.

The "Lowlands are actually English" meme really need to die.
>>
>>666313
And even then, talking overall, Scottish culture is still way more Celtic than English.
>>
>>666337
When it comes down to it, there's tangible and strong things in culture like language, and then there's subjective and weak things like ones "feelings" about it.
>>
>>666339
This I accept, but how exactly?
>>
>>666350
No there isn't, because culture is voluntary.

The deciding factor in regards to culture and identity is precisely your feelings towards it, you cannot be a part of that culture if you refuse to take part in it.
>>
>>666337
There are honest, Gaelic-speaking highlanders that say that the lowlands are very Anglo. They were speaking in Gaelic on this very thread.
>>
>>666353
Well, because Scotland is still very different to England in terms of culture and character.

For instance, Scots aren't racist :^).
>>
>>666362
They're just bitter because Inverness is kinda shit.
>>
>>666361
Culture is, by definition, made up of things like language, religion, architecture, and so on. Not your attitudes towards it, and even if that were so, it's be only one of many things.

>>666370
>I speak for all whole kingdom
I'm getting the feeling you're Scottish. Can you say anything in Gaelic?
>>
>>666380
Our maybe Celts recognize that they aren't Celtic?
>>
>>666404
*or
>>
>>666399
>Culture is, by definition, made up of things like language, religion, architecture, and so on. Not your attitudes towards it, and even if that were so, it's be only one of many things

No, that is wrong, because culture and identity is voluntary thing. You have to choose to be a part of it. Do I have to keep explaining this to you?

And anyway, even if Scots don't speak Gaelic, they are still Scots and a massive part of that national identity is bound up in Celtic culture and history.

>Can you say anything in Gaelic?
Óró sé do bheatha abhaile :^)

>>666404
No, because they aren't being serious.

They might call someone from Edinburgh a sassenach, but they'll still pick them over a proper sassenach.
>>
>>666432
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture
>the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time
you can identify as Celtic, but that doesn't make you Celtic. identity is subjective. but culture is objective. OP isn't about whether you think you're Celtic, but about whether you are culturally.
>>
>>666450
Culture can't be objective, it's a social construct.

And again, membership of a group and of a society is predicated on the choice of an individual to be a part of that group or society.
>>
>>666450
In short, if I think I am Celtic then that is the deciding factor in whether or not I am Celtic.

If I choose to be British, that makes me British, if I choose to be Scottish that makes me Scottish.
>>
>>666472
Beliefs, customs, arts, religion, and language are identifiable.
>>
>>666482
Yes, and the grouping of those institutions into a "culture" is a social construct.

I'm studying archaeology in the same institution as V. Gordon Childe taught, you're not going to win here by cherry picking definitions off internet dictionaries.
>>
>>666500
>Merriam-Webster isn't good enough
You aren't bringing substance to the table, merely claiming your title validates you. You say your identity is Celtic, which is wholly true. Culturally, the Scottish lowlands is very Anglic, identity won't change that.
>>
>>652894
Because Scots as a national identity originated from the Gaelic settlers and overlords of the former Pictish (also Celtic) lands.

Similarly the vast majority of Irish people speak English, but are recognized as Celtic because that's where the national identity spawned from.

>but even have their own Anglic language, Scots
Dialects aren't languages. The fact that it seems very disjointed and foreign to standard English speakers is similar to Ebonics, but that isn't a language either.
>>
>>666520
The debate is out on wether or not Scots is a dialect or separate language. For me, I think it has to do with intelligibility.
>>
>>666510
>Merriam-Webster isn't good enough

Merriam-Webster agrees with me.

>the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular SOCIETY, GROUP, place, or time

>You aren't bringing substance to the table, merely claiming your title validates you.

No, I'm trying to explain to you that a crucial element of culture is based upon membership of a society and social group, and that the deciding factor in membership of a society and a social group is to actually choose to interact with those groups socially.

If you don't like me making the same points again and again, I suggest you stop refusing the blatantly obvious.

But, even if we were to use your (incorrect) reasoning, the lowlands are still Celtic, just not linguistically.
>>
>>666520
Identity =/= culture.
See the whole recent thread above us.
>>
>>666520
>the Gaelic settlers and overlords of the former Pictish (also Celtic) lands

Actually, historians don't think that's what happened now.
>>
>>666539
Okay, I see one retard screaming about how culture is an objective truth and sensible person patently explaining why he's wrong.
>>
>>652912
>genocided

Nope. Nice Irishman historical revisionism. As usual the Irish on /his/ resort to black twitter we wuz kangz shit.

Literally WE WUZ INVENTORS
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/9953179/The-Picts-are-alive-and-well-and-living-in-Scotland.html>>652912
>>
>>666510
See, this is what happens when you're as xenophobic and pathetically lonely as the English are, you have to try and start rationalising how other people are actually also English.
>>
>>666547
>screaming
>cherry-picking
I know I'm winning this because I'm having things said about me that are observantly false, and no more actual actual points are coming my way.
>>
>>666559
>not addressing my points
>>
>>666570
Yeah, because you refuse to accept one very basic and very correct premise which makes it impossible to carry on the discussion.

Culture is voluntary, deal with it.
>>
>>666577
I already have, they're wrong.

There is no such thing as "objective culture".
>>
>>666578
>cultural is voluntary
It isn't. I've already proven what constitutes culture, and it isn't about how you feel about it. That's identity, not culture.
Bring up any actual points.
>>
>>666558
I wouldn't say that's Irish revisionism, I think it's taking Medieval chronical sources at face value, coupled with the Medieval inability to understand that culture is subjective and can change.

The only reason they could understand for a culture and a language dying out was if everyone who spoke that language and was born into that culture died out.
>>
>>666587
I did.

Culture is associated with groups, membership of a group is voluntary.

Identity is, therefore an essential aspect of culture.

And just because you keep saying that isn't an "actual" point won't make it true.
>>
>>666595
He downright said genocided...

There is no evidence to suggest they were genocided nor was there any posted in this thread, nor will there ever be.

What he really meant was assimilated. And that's the term you lot are looking for too.

Celts still exist they have just been assimilated into anglic culture like the picts were to gaelic
>>
>>666583
Things that make up culture, religion, language, architecture, are indeed objective. There is Roman religion (Roman pantheon), architecture (their Style), and language (Latin). There is Celtic language (Celtic languages, such as Gaelic and Welsh), Celtic religion (Celtic paganism, such as Epona), and architecture. If feelings were all that mattered, I could claim to be Chinese abd by your definition I am.
>>
>>666605
I never said the Celts were dead.

I just said that the theory the Picts were killed off wasn't an Irish revisionism, it is very well established in the chronicals. For the record, the fact it is in the chronicals doesn't mean it's actually true.
>>
>>666623
>literally believing in century old propaganda
>>
>>666609
Yes, there are certain religions and languages and art styles associated with certain groups.

But, those groups are voluntary, subjective and a social construct.

Hence, the grouping of religion, languages and art associated with a certain group into a "culture" must, necessarily, also must be subjective and a social construct.

If you say you're Chinese that doesn't mean you FEEL Chinese.

But if you do FEEL Chinese you CHOOSE to interact socially with the Chinese group, and you will CHOOSE to interact with Chinese culture.

But, no matter how much you interact with another culture and another group you will not be part of that group or belong to that culture unless you CHOOSE to be a part, unless you FEEL like it.
>>
>>666627
What, that a chronical says that the Picts all died out?

But there is one, from about the 11th century.

Again, I DON'T THINK IT'S TELLING THE TRUTH.

Work on your reading comprehension, fucking hell.
>>
>>666680
t. triggered paddy
>>
>>666687
You're a moron.
>>
>>666687
I mean the story about the Picts being killed off comes from an English chronicle anyway.

A big part of the evidence that the Gaels didn't genocide the Picts comes from the Ulster Chronicle.
>>
>>666609
You know, it took me a while to realise, but you're literally arguing No True Scotsman.

No True Celt.
>>
>>666655
>Yes, there are certain religions and languages and art styles associated with certain groups.
This defines those groups. You don't become Celtic by deciding you are, you adopt Celtic culture, everything is associated with something, Scots language isn't Celtic, it's Anglic.
>>
>>666730
There are aspects associated with Celts that lowland Scots have, abd they were Celtic for it. They have aspects that are Anglic, and they are not Celtic in that specific regard.
>>
>>666536
It is intelligible, it just requires some getting used to.

This is why I put forward Ebonics as a an example, most Americans are already familar roughly with the ins and outs of African American vernacular so it doesn't seem quite as alien from regular English as it is. Being from Northern Ireland for similar reasons Scots isn't that unintelligeble, it just seems kind of like an archaic version of the local modern dialect similar to how Shakespeare is very different to modern English but perfectly understandable once you get into the flow of it.
>>
>>666542
Really, where'd you hear that?

Or are you that Welsh guy that hates Ireland for some reason?
>>
>>666771
I follow. this makes sense. it truly is right on the line, isn't it?
>>
>>666736
>This defines those groups. You don't become Celtic by deciding you are

You literally do.

And even then, the Gaelic language is only one very particular facet of Celtic culture, you can still be a Celt without speaking it.
>>
>>666775
I took a course on Medieval Scottish History at Edinburgh University last semester.

Check out Alex Woolf's From Pictland to Alba and Dauvit Broon's work.
>>
>>660117

Not the case.
>>
>>666736
Ooh, I get it now.

You're from Boston, and are just really insecure because you know you're not really Irish.
>>
>>667778
Well the Picts were a Celtic people, that's accepted but it is debated over whether the Gaels were actually Irish settlers or Scots who simply adopted Irish culture due to very close interaction.
>>
GOD DAMN IT

THE FOUNDATION OF ALL HUMAN BEHAVIOR IS ROOTED IN BIOLOGY

IF YOU CANT ACCEPT THIS AND ALL ITS IMPLICATIONS THAN YOU HAVE NO PLACE IN THE DISCUSSION OF THE HUMAN SITUATION
>>
>>667788
Yeah, but then people blow themselves up, what the fuck is going on there if it's all biology?
>>
>>667788
nice trip dubs, not really related to the thread though, and no one's denying that biology is a significant factor.
>>
>>667795

how could they blow themselves up if they didn't have bodies?

checkmate
>>
>>667787
>Scots who simply adopted Irish culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata

>Latin-language sources often referred to the inhabitants of Dál Riata as Scots (Scoti in Latin), a name originally used by Roman and Greek writers for the Irish who raided Roman Britain.
>>
>>667805
That literally proves nothing.

Look at the "Scythians", the Greeks could never agree where they actually were.

And even then, what if the adoption of Gaelic culture by the Scots simply took place prior to regular Roman contact with Scotland?
>>
The Welsh are the only true celts remaining
The Irish should be definitely considered Anglo. Only thing that makes them different from the British is Catholicism. 99% of them can't even speak their own fucking language. They speak English natively but butcher it so bad it's laughable
>>
>>667881
The Welsh are English cucks.
>>
>>667881
true
>>
>>667881
I can speak my own language, thank you. There is a huge movement of people re-learning Gaeilge.

1916-2016 will be remembered as the years of the Sinn Féin revolutions.

TÁL
>>
>>668299
how much of a difference is there between Irish and Scottish Gaelic?
>>
>>668327
They were the same language less than a thousand years ago.

Closer to each other than Dutch and German are.
>>
>>652894

Because they were kilts? They're Kiltic.
>>
>>667781
I'm not some Mick from New England. I'm an American Southerner with family here since 1766 and an Anglo surname.

Nice try in any case, you're not bringing up anything valid, good ad hominem.
>>
>>667771
>You literally do.
Of a Celt takes on culture that isn't Celtic, his culture just became less Celtic, not that the new cultural factors stopped being what they once were abd became Celtic. French culture is overwhelmingly Latin, it's not all Celtic just because they were once Gauls.

>And even then, the Gaelic language is only one very particular facet of Celtic culture, you can still be a Celt without speaking it.
Certainly, no doubt Scotland is still Celtic. Things like the Kilt is Celtic, as it is Celtic in origin. The Scots language is Germanic in origin, as it is Anglic.
>>
The real question is what supposedly makes modern Scots celts?

Have they been watching too much Braveheart or something?
>>
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>>668421
>Scots language
>>
>>654466
>unironically supporting a French catholic puppet when there's a manly dutch alternative who established Britain as the main antagonist of France, thus paving the way for the dominant position of Great Britain in the 19th century


Wew lad
>>
>>669117
>France is bad now
France is our greatest ally and we would be better off had we not spent 1000 years trying to cuck them.

The Dutch on the other hand are faggots.
>>
>>654340
Are you implying ethnicities don't exist?
>>
>>669167
The genes associated with ethnic groups vastly predate the existence of those ethnic groups
>>
Being Scottish is literally a social construct.

I have a classmate raised in Scotland but born to Shona parents.

He's literally more Scottish than an anon born to Scottish parents but raised anywhere but Scotland.

/thread
>>
>>669795
Being English is literally a social construct.

I have a classmate raised in England but born to Indian parents.

He's literally more English than an anon born to English parents but raised anywhere but England.

/thread
>>
>>669800
This is true.
>>
>>669866

lol no
>>
>>669921
I'm afraid it is. It's 2016, how can you still be so in the dark?
>>
>>669924

it's literally 1066 already

how can you question the right of the Anglo-Saxon nobility to self determination?
>>
>>669940
Are you calling me a bastard?
>>
>>668327
In the beginning of this thread I was talking to a scottish islander and understood him well. As far as I can tell he understood me well too.

>>668299
not this anon btw, there are three or four Irish speakers on /his/, and about 10 shitposters who make jokes through google translate.
>>
>>669795
Being any ethnicity is a social construct
>>
>>659310
> Many areas of the new world have primarily native populations. From mexico to venezuela peru to bolivia . In fact, its only the anglophone colonies where natives are not a major component of the population.
Out of those places only Bolivia and perhaps parts of Central America have a majority Amerindian population. In all the other countries the brown people you see are rape babies from a few Conquistadors and the remaining Amerindian women after almost all the Amerindian men died off.
>>
>>652894
The English are overwhelmingly Celtic genetically, so ties to Northumbria don't matter.
>>
>>652894
Well, if I'm remembering my history of the British Isles right, Irish raiders often set up in villages they razed on the coasts of Modern day Scotland. They called them Scotti which meant Raider, but yeah technically Scots unless pure scott are Irish.
>>
>>672342
It was called Dal Riata. The land that they took and basically made their kingdom
>>
>>672255
Genetics don't give a fuck about your culture.
>>
>>672255
Not really.
>>
>>673543
Yes really. The Anglo-Saxons did not wipe out the existing gene pool.

http://youtu.be/uhopt9vzmjc
>>
>>652894
Scots descended from Irish people. Celtic.
>>
>>652894
We aren't. In fact, if you consider language as the best objective measure of ethnicity, Scots are the purest anglo-saxons on the British Isles. Seriously, compare common Scots words with similar words in Danish and Swedish, then compare them to words in English. Reason for this being that the anglos in the Kingdom of Alba didn't get their shit cucked by the French in 1066. Over the next few centuries they wrested control of the Kingdom from the Gaels (reformation has a big part in this as the lowlanders become calvinist zealots while the highlanders remained catholic for the most part). The Scots didn't even regard the Gaels as kinsmen, referring to them as "Erse" (Irish) and actively suppressing their culture (see Statues if Iona among other things).

The modern day celtic memery can be traced to the huge (seriously, HUGE) influx of Irish immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, that essentially resurrected the old Scots Protestant/Gaelic Cathoic divide.

Before the fenian hordes turned up, Scots were ardent defenders of the Protestant faith and easily the most enthusiastic proponents of the British Empire.
>>
>>669090
If England hadn't been conquered in 1066 we'd all be speaking a language much closer to Scots.
>>
It's literally this simple:

Scots - Anglo-Saxons that weren't cucked by the French

Scottish Gaels - Irish inhabiting Scotland, cucked to near extinction by the Scots

Only reason any gives a shit about the Gaels is because there are over a million extremely butthurt Catholic Irish diaspora in Scotland today.

Pic related, fans of Celtic Football Club. Entirely comprised of Catholic Irish diaspora. You will never catch them flying a Scottish flag. If one of them dares to, it will be outnumbered 10 to 1 by the Irish tricolour. Only when the sun sets in the east will you see a Union Flag in within 40 feet of a celtic supporter.
>>
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>>674196
forgot the picture lmao
>>
>>674127
>>674196
What about Scots clan culture? Isn't that Gaelic?
And what about Braveheart?

My entire view of Scotland is changing.
>>
>>674218
>What about Scots clan culture? Isn't that Gaelic?
Only partially. Many of the Highland Clans were scotticised by the 15th century or earlier. A good chunk of them accepted protestantism with little to no coercion. Epicentre of Catholic Gaelic resistance was in the traditional Gaelic heartlands of the Western Isles, led by the Clan MacDonald. Early modern Scottish history is littered with recurring conflicts between the powerful Lords of the Isles (Gaelic) and the Monarchy of Scotland (Scots). Many of the Gaelic clans were forced to submit to Scots hegemony by the beginning of the 17th century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Iona). Some of them held out, which led to incidents of extreme violence such as this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe.

Ultimately the Gaels were suppressed and placated. Vast majority of them converted to Protestantism, only remote areas of the Western Isles maintained catholic communities. Until of course the Great Famine happened and roughly a million Catholic Irish mendicants turned up on our doorstep.

>And what about Braveheart?
Bears a very loose resemblance to Scottish History. The period it is based on was pre-reformation. Kings of Scotland at that time were bilingual and two groups co-existed in relative harmony.
>>
>>666520
>comparing scots to ebonics
Are you out of your fucking mind son?

Scots is what we would all be speaking right now if it wasn't for the norman conquest
>>
>>665622

It used to be an offshoot style language, like Dutch to German, or Afrikaans to Dutch.

Read some burns and it's almost unintelligible. But cultural osmosis and an effort by the various kings and prime ministers to bring the languages together made it more of an accent or a dialect than a distinct language.
>>
>>674218
>My entire view of Scotland is changing.
You really shouldn't let yourself be swayed so easily. If he's using terms like "fenian hordes" you can be relatively certain he's lying.
>>
>>665622
Scots is a language that has become bastardized for various reasons

Proper Scots is a closer to old Anglic than modern English is
>>
>>674372
Substantiate your accusation then. Where did I lie?
Thread replies: 262
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