Japanese Empire Discussion (1930-1945)

>>608021

If America hadn't intervened in any way, the Japanese would probably have still been fighing a fruitless war in China. Russia was right out, and they still needed oil and empire, so they would have come into conflict with the British sooner or later, and probably the Americans due to the alliances at the time.

And Germany was given a higher priority, even if a vast amount of resources was given to naval warfare. The US already had a lot of ships though, so it's difficult to estimate what difference it would have made.

As far as the point of the embargo, the US were nominally allied with China, and nobody wanted the Japanese to carve their way through Asia. They were always a threat, in other words, and they were very clearly gunning for the top dog position, and weren't hesitant about conquering everyone else to do so. China wasn't a threat, Japan was. Remember there's any number of industrial interests out that way as well for the rest of the world, and Japan also endangered those, if you're being purely pragmatic about it.

>Holy
>Japanese
>Empire

>>608038

>East
>Asia
>Co
>Prosperity
>Sphere

>>608021
The Japanese oil embargo had little impact on the decision by the Japanese government to declare war, and sneak attack, the United States. By the oil embargo occurred, the Japanese government, ruled by the military class, already had their goals in mind, which included the eventually attack on the USA.


The focus of the Japanese was to establish itself as the ruler of Asia. Literally, that's what they wanted to be, and they made it clear numerous times, which is why FDR, 10 years before WW2, predicted the eventual attack on the USA's Philippine colonies. China, Korea, the Philippines, etc etc were to all be satellites to fuel the Japanese war empire.

Now, 50 years earlier, the USA defeated Spain, and won a handful of islands. The President, Theodore Roosevelt, greatly wanted to build the Navy.

What does that have to do with WW2?

The Japanese never intended to WIN the Pacific War with the USA. That's the important part. They wanted to grab the Philippines and then try to sue the USA for peace. The Japanese were to accomplish this by first destroying the navy located at Pearl Harbour, and then establishing themselves as naval superiors in the Pacific ---- the USA would be helpless and sue, or the so the Japanese thought.

The rest is history.

There you go

>>608032
>>608066

Thanks, I needed a better understanding on this subject. Makes sense, the Japanese thought they were too big to fail, and they did.

>>608070
That's exactly what they thought. The Japanese Empire did not appear overnight, and the attack on Pearl Harbor was not some retaliation by some economic embargo -- the Japanese would not be that stupid to get themselves into a war with the world's second best navy, leading economy, and fairly large air force.

Even the Japanese military elite joked that a conventional war with the USA is impossible -- traveling all the way to Washington DC through the continent is not possible.

A lot of the Japanese ruling class had been educated in the USA. Pearl Harbor attack happened on Sunday because the Japanese knew that Americans would be at church or hung over...now you see one reason why many Americans distrusted ethnic Japanese during the war

>>608066
>The Japanese never intended to WIN the Pacific War with the USA. That's the important part. They wanted to grab the Philippines and then try to sue the USA for peace. The Japanese were to accomplish this by first destroying the navy located at Pearl Harbour, and then establishing themselves as naval superiors in the Pacific ---- the USA would be helpless and sue, or the so the Japanese thought.
Why the fuck would they ever think that would be a good idea? Even if the US had a fraction of its war power before the war began, surely they should have known that the US would never yield to such an act

>>608077

What a major mistake, what if they had not attacked the USA or their territories out of fear? Then what?
Alternate history is confusing as there are so many variables to add.

>>608066

>The Japanese never intended to WIN the Pacific War with the USA. That's the important part. They wanted to grab the Philippines and then try to sue the USA for peace. The Japanese were to accomplish this by first destroying the navy located at Pearl Harbour, and then establishing themselves as naval superiors in the Pacific ---- the USA would be helpless and sue, or the so the Japanese thought.

I have never heard this before. Do you have a source?

>>608092
It would work on the British desu. Or even the modern Americans. They just did it at the wrong time

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>>608097
What?! How....what did they teach you in history class?


Robert Leckie's extremely thick and detailed novel, which served as the inspiration for Band of Brothers and The Pacific HBO miniseries

Samuel Eliot Morison, Harvard graduated and professor for 40 years, Pulitzer Prize winner, and, most importantly, ommissioned by President Franklin D. Roosevelt to write a history of United States naval operations in World War II, which was published in 15 volumes between 1947 and 1962

>>608092
>what if they had not attacked the USA or their territories out of fear?
Then I suppose the USA would have to find another way into the European War, and the war in the Pacific against the USA might not exist.

I don't know what would be Japan's fight then. They'd probably get really huge and powerful once they conquered China.

Japan actually devoted most of its manpower to China, instead of the USA

Russia would eventually declare war on the Japanese, maybe. One of the main reasons the Japanese were so cocky is that the Japanese were the first Asian nation to defeat a modern Europe nation

>>608083
They did not think Americans could fight. That was one reason. The other is that America had just gotten out of the Great Depression and might not want to waste too many resources. They also thought FDR was weak.

1. destroy American navy
2. create Naval superiority
3. ???
4. Profit

Doo littles raid happened and America still had air superiority, to the chagrin of the Japanese

>>608117
Commissioned*


Morison is like the Cicero or the Herodotus of the Pacific War. He's Caesar's official scribe.

The biggest mistake of the Japanese Empire is that they failed to see: If you kill American en mass you will piss them off so hard they will kick your shit in no matter the cost.

>>608129

Yeah, yeah, put your eagledick away, mr idealist.

>>608046
Western Pacific Unitary Exploitation Zone

>>608283
To some degree hes rigt. The militarists badly misread the american zeitgeist.

>>608353

True. I guess we'll add that to the list of things they utterly misread. I've seen some stuff on their naval design. Totally screwed the pooch on that one.

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>>608283

Radical elitism leads to arrogance, most of our enemies believed that they could not fall to the eagle, but they did. And all that attack us, or kill our citizens will pay.

>>608402

>he uses nationalism as a crutch for his faltering ego.

>>608425

You have no argument so you use ad-hominem to attack me.

And then, it's simply not true.