[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / biz / c / cgl / ck / cm / co / d / diy / e / fa / fit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mu / n / news / o / out / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vip /vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y ] [Search | Home]
4Archive logo
How do you reconcile religion with secular...
If images are not shown try to refresh the page. If you like this website, please disable any AdBlock software!

You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

Thread replies: 28
Thread images: 1
File: religion.jpg (260 KB, 1024x768) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
religion.jpg
260 KB, 1024x768
How do you reconcile religion with secular government? Do religions not purport to offer the ultimate path to social harmony? If so, how can one be truly faithful while supporting governance that is not explicitly religious?
>>
>>588709
That God is not present is manifest; religion is just a useful too to keep those who lack the brain power or the will to examine their lives in check. Its coexistence with secular governments is a kind of doublethink; just don't think about it too much and you have nothing to worry about
>>
>>588728
*flips menorah*
>>
>>588734
Let me further explain my point with an analogy. I am a gay man. For a long time I would fap to pictures of men, yet I would call myself straight in good conscience. It's not that I was trying to justify my desires to myself; it's just that I never made that mental leap because I never had a reason too. Similarly, many people live their lives full of contradictions they never notice because they have no reason to. The religious one is just one of these
>>
As far as Christianity goes, the Bible does address that one should abide by secular government (save for if it forces you to sin) on no uncertain terms.

And many Muslims are currently rallying to have their explicitly religious law replace/amend regional laws where a large amount of Muslims live.

Some other sects of religion or more moderate religious consider religion to be a way of illuminating truth or ensuring eternal life rather than something that should guide the laws of society.

Perhaps it would help if you were more specific, OP, because there are a lot of wildly differing belief systems that all get along differently with many, equally diverse secular laws
>>
>>588772
Well, specifically I am reading Qutb's Signposts Along the Road and In The Shadow of the Qu'ran, which proscribe the complete abolition of jahaliyya governments and social orders in favor of pure Islam. But it leads to the larger question of the incompatibility of religious and secular society
>>
>>588772
>Muslims are currently rallying to have their explicitly religious law replace/amend regional laws

Islamic law applies exclusively to Muslims. If you live in an Islamic country you're entitled to live under the laws of your own community as a Dhimmi but you're not allowed certain rights.

Before you say it's inhuman it makes sense from the point of view of the Muslims. It prevents them from becoming minorities and discriminated against. It's been an issue for muslims since the beginning of their community.
>>
>>588709
>How do you reconcile religion with secular government?
secular government who are not explicitly authoritative are about practice of hedonism


religions are the opposite of hedonism.


=>you cannot have the two together
>>
>>588709
You can only reconcile watered down versions of religion with secular government.
>>
ITT people who either never bothered to read or never bothered to understand what Christ meant when he said "Give unto Ceasar that which is Caesar's, and give unto God that which is God's."
>>
>>588709
Because religion follows the whim of whoever interprets it.
As such it is uniquely unsuited to providing a common basis for law and governance because any revolution by "heretics" is just as justified as the original government.
>>
>>588888
That Jesus was talking about Israel and this is an anti-Roman quote?
>>
>>588954
Follow the law of the land insofar as it does not contradict your moral compass.
>>
>>588961
What if the law is no longer decided by a monarch or the nobility but instead is decided by the people or the representatives they elect?
>>
>>588812
The rights they wamnt to deny me are fundamental and the fact they feel entitled fo deny me my rights makes them an oppressive enemy to destroy.

It's a tool for muslims to oppress non-muslims, nothing more than that.
See the Cologne rapes where muslims declare it's ok for them to rape non-muslims because their religious law says so and you're being oppressive if you want to punish them for this.
>>
>>588709
>Do religions not purport to offer the ultimate path to social harmony?

No.

People, men and women both, want to party, dance, and have fun without suffocating restrictions. Religion prohibits this because it's regulated by hypocrite pedophiles who think the masses should just be obedient sheeps and not to look out for themselves, even if just to have fun and make their life better. Cue social strife because people rebel since the religion imposed on them wants to kill something very dear to them. See the endless losing battle of the medieval Church against minstrels,trobadours and public dances which are dearly beloved to the European population.

People want to eat pork, it's fucking delicious and highly nutritious. Religion doesn't want people to eat pork because it's an arab piece of shit thought that comes from a geographical region where raising pigs wasn't such a good idea, but makes no sense in Europe where pigs give no problem at all and are part of the daily diet and farm life. Cue social strife because muslim shitstains won't take my delicious food from me.

People, women especially, want to let down their hair and attract valuable people's attention. People love music and dancing and fashion and romance and books and comics and videogames of all kind (yes even delicious lewd ones) and sex and sexuality and theatre and opera and ballet and humor and philosophy and larp and dungeons & dragons and everything that makes life good and fun and pleasant to live. Cue social strife because religion wants to curb social mobility and all one's enjoyment of life.

Tl;dr religion doesn't lead to social harmony at all because it wants to deprive people of what makes life worth living. Unless by "social harmony" you mean the social harmony of a graveyard.
>>
>>589075
One thing I forgot:

Women to want to work to secure their own lives, when they don't have an outright passion and vocation such as artists that drives them. Religion wants them to stay in the kitchen. Cue social strife because staying in the kitchen doesn't lead to social and life fulfillment and improvement, doesn't let you accumulate and contribute wealth to improve your station or even prevent falling into poverty, doesn't give you freedom and safety from an oppressive and abusive man and no sane woman accepts this.
>>
>>588749
>I am a gay man
stopped reading there
>>
In Christianity atleast, caesaropapism is heresy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesaropapism

And combining ecclesiastical power with military power is also illegal:

Apostolic Canon 83:
If a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, shall serve in the army, and wish to retain both the Roman magistracy and the priestly office, let him be deposed; for the things of Cæsar belong to Cæsar, and those of God to God.
>>588981
>What if the law is no longer decided by a monarch or the nobility but instead is decided by the people or the representatives they elect?
Does it matter?
"Caesar" was even then possibly a confederation of states, a city-state ruled by merchant families, or outright democracy in Greece.
It's the principle that matters.
>>
>>588812
The difference is that while Judaism has the Jews as God's chosen people (so it is very exclusive) and Christianity has everyone being equal but Christians tolerate non-Christians (and it is apolitical, and non-believers can be saved too anyway), Islam claims that 1. non-believers who were warned WILL go to Hell and 2. everyone should have been one community under God's rules but it is human wickedness that created different interpretations and cultures. Not saying Islam does not tolerate non-Muslims but the ideal end goal would be for every country to be Muslim, culturally and politically.

>>588709
Stupid question - each religion has its own teachings on that.
>>
>>589176
Rude
>>
>>588709
>Do religions not purport to offer the ultimate path to social harmony?
Depends of the religion. That's definitely Islam's claim. Christianity and Buddhism are much more about spiritual harmony (hell, Christianity relies on the fact that, effectively, social harmony is not possible anyway).

>>589075
>
Tl;dr religion doesn't lead to social harmony at all because it wants to deprive people of what makes life worth living. Unless by "social harmony" you mean the social harmony of a graveyard.
*tips sombrero*
>>
>>589909
The Koran actually admits Jews WERE the chosen people.
>>
>>589970
I didn't mean to say the contrary. Koran is basically Christianity DX: Political Ritualistic Edition: Muhammad's Cut, ft. God who is the one true version of God with everything in the Tanakh or Bible contradicting Islam having been added by wicked people actually
>>
>>588790
Doesn't that position seem a bit extreme?
>>
>>589075

Just because you find them disagreeable does not mean that the original question:

>Do religions not purport to offer the ultimate path to social harmony?

Is wrong. Yes actually, they do purport to offer the ultimate path to social harmony but even the interpretation and practice is something to be cautious and wary off.

All you've spouted are your own inane objections and rants which have nothing to do with what OP asked.

I hope getting that off your chest made you feel better but it was entirely pointless and irrelevant to the thread.
>>
>>589005
Less than 1% of sharia law is penal codes, which a lot of muslims ignore anyway. The vast majority of it is dull shit like food and banking. Private muslim courts in the west don't have extrajudicial power whatsoever and their populations are also generally much smaller than people believe.
>>
>>589176
omg ur so blunt and outspoken hahaha :D leftist sheeple better watch out this man is off the rails!
Thread replies: 28
Thread images: 1
Thread DB ID: 458136



[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / biz / c / cgl / ck / cm / co / d / diy / e / fa / fit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mu / n / news / o / out / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vip /vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Home]

[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / biz / c / cgl / ck / cm / co / d / diy / e / fa / fit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mu / n / news / o / out / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vip /vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Home]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at [email protected] with the post's information.