Which one of them fucked Rome hardest?

>>587470
Marius saved Rome more than once, he could afford a few major fuckups

>>587470
why didn't the Romans have noses?

>>587470
Ovid

>>587515
Noses are for barbarians

>>587515

Barbarian Butthurt.

>>587470
Marius
He was the one who cucked Roman Democracy for the Next Century
Sulla and Caesar wouldn't have been able to do what they did without Marius's Military Reforms

>>587567
There would be no rome for them to ruin without marius reforms

>>587470
>You will never have the talent to turn a slab of stone into an accurate likeness of a person

Sculpting is such a tremendous art

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>>587587

Both were necesarry for rome in one way or another

>>587587
To be fair it isn't raw talent that makes a sculptor. Most of these guys were training since they were like 8 with a single minded dedication a child of today couldn't even dream about thanks to all of our various distractions. People just don't dedicate their lives to art anymore. Not many people anyway.

>>587660
I selfdestructively drink myself senseless every day and have been deeply introspective and angsty since i was 8. I am dedicated as a writer

>>587470
I believe Marius was the first to have a proscription/purge drive, wasn't he?

Regardless of the ultimate good of his military reforms (also, don't forget Rufus' involvement in this), I'd say Marius did more harm than good. Marius created Sulla, after all, or at least created the circumstances that drove Sulla to back the optimates in such a brutal way.

>>587660
All people with who are good at such things need to train and work at it, but the innate 'talent' still needs to be there. You can teach every to cook, but some people will still have a better grasp at it.

>>587567
>>587570
I heard the whole descent of the republic started with the unlawful assassination of the gracchus brothers.

>>587948
I'd tend to agree with this, in the sense that the Gracchi brothers had seemingly succeeded in winning great popularity by going against political convention (ie: Tiberius, proposing bills to the people without going to the Senate first, Gaius setting up a whole bunch of public works and public funding - using the revenue from the province of Asia, whereas the use of provincial income had been the Senate's prerogative). So they proved that the tribunate of the plebs, which had been a minor office since the ol' days of the patrician-plebeian struggles, could be re-tooled as a means of 'shortcutting' one's political career. This didn't fail to escape the attention of later amibitious Romans; nor did the fact that murder had been used as a political weapon, against the Gracchi, and had not been condemned. On the other hand this kind of leads to a teleological reasoning: 'The Gracchi were violently disposed with, so Marius was inclined to use violence for his own purposes, which made it easier for Sulla to lead his legions against the Republic, which inspired Caesar/Pompey to do the same...', but was each of these men 'forced' to resort to force for their own purposes?

>>587688
What purge are you talking about?
And again, Rome COULD NOT, EVER have won against the germans without marius reforms

>>587515
widespread syphilis.

>>587515
Do you actually have a nose? lmao, barbarian

>>587470
did you make this photo OP? Youre from munich?

Couldn't Marius just give monies to the state to raise legions the same way but by state's power, instead of creating his own private armies?

>>587515
Too rough coke in that time.

>>590127
Marius armies were funded by the state, the "problem" was that they were paid for, rather than conscription armies of the higher rung of society

>>587515
Becuz da white man want 2 hide that we wuz Romans is shit

>>588987
Are you serious? As soon as Sulla left for Pontus, after the first Civil War in which he killed Rufus and sent Marius with his tail between his legs to Numidia, Marius came back, took control of the city with a band of slaves and robbers, and started a city wide massacre of those who had ever been opposed to him, and their sons.

Marcus Licinius Crassus would have been dead if his father hadn't forced him to flee, and many important men and consulars died to the hoots of Marius's gang. First proscription massacre in Rome, heads on spears in front of the Senate house.

>>590127
>>590137
The problem was that, after service, they had no form of income and would quickly revert to their previous state (landless, penniless, without weapons or armor either), but as huge supporters of Marius. This is because he promised them land, and the only reason they wouldn't be able to get that land is because of the Senate not allowing it to be given. Empty land, free of tenants or farms, just waiting to be plowed.

So those men supported Marius and, if things came to a head, he could just rearm them and march them against the Senate's armies. Which happened after he died, Cinna and Carbo and to a degree Sertorius having the support of Marius's veterans, against Sulla's veterans from the Social War and Pontic War.

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>>587603

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>>587587

>you will never sculpt marble with such expertise that in places it is thin enough to be translucent

>>587948
The fall of the republic started at the end of the second pubic war.

Rome was sending thousands upon thousands of its citizens off to die only to find out that when they returned most of the land had been taken by a few wealthy families.

And with expansion in Spain, Africa, and Greece there was an abundance of slaves for whom those wealthy land owners could buy cheap labor, removing The lower class citizens from the working force.

Without a strong foreign power to turn their attention to, Romans very quickly focused that aggression inwards and decided to acquire personal gain at whatever cost, including the republic.

That's what set the stage for Caesar and Augustus. If the senators had just given a shit from the start none of it would have happened.

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>>591566
>the second pubic war.

>>591602
Kek didn't even spot the mistake.

I wonder if there ever has been a pubic war.

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>>590929
>Are you serious? As soon as Sulla left for Pontus, after the first Civil War in which he killed Rufus and sent Marius with his tail between his legs to Numidia, Marius came back, took control of the city with a band of slaves and robbers, and started a city wide massacre of those who had ever been opposed to him, and their sons.
>Marcus Licinius Crassus would have been dead if his father hadn't forced him to flee, and many important men and consulars died to the hoots of Marius's gang. First proscription massacre in Rome, heads on spears in front of the Senate house.
That's unfair, marius was senile after the second stroke, it couldn't be helped

>>591686
>>>What purge are you talking about?
>>I explain what purge it is.
>That's unfair.

How is it unfair? It's just the truth. If he was senile, his handlers sure could've stopped it.

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>>591813
shut the FUCK up you stupid fucking nerd LOL
don't ever fucking reply to me ever again

>>587470
actually the guys who murdered Marcus Livius Drusus and kicked off the Social War fucked Rome the hardest.

>>591819
:^)

>>591813
I was being mostly facetious.
The memelord that responded to you isn't me

>>591918
Oh, I see. I did assume that the memelord was just some random faggot.

In any case, Marius and Rufus apologists will never cease to amaze me.