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Have battles ever come down to single combat...
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Have battles ever come down to single combat and champion warfare? Is there any documented cases or is it all just legends and memes?
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>>587413
I know there has definitely been 1 on 1 dogfights, but flying in a plane isn't quite "muh honorable single combat"
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>>587413
Also examples of it would be cool if you guys know
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>>587425
Well that still counts, I was just thinking further back
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>>587413
There was a battle between the English and french that the commanders decided to settle with a melee between 100(?) knights. Can't remember the name though.
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During the Syrian Civil War Rebels and Hezbollah had a fist fight, around 50 men each, for control of a building during Zabadani ceasefire
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>>587763
>>587828
That's fucking sweet
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>>587413
Battle outcomes based on champion warfare are usually practiced by very ancient, small scale societies, who negotiate to limit violence by just having two best dudes duke it out.

Of course, it survived into early civilizations and even beyond, but by then it was a morale/socio-cultural thing and niggs didnt base whole battle outcomes around them. It also helped increase the fame and social standing of the warriors participating in the duel.
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>>587413
Supposedly Samurai did this kinda stuff before the Mongols turned up.

>>587763
Combat of thirty?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_of_the_Thirty

Kinda neat stuff and the epitome of hollywood chivalry really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_d%27armes
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>>587855
I know the Combat of Thirty page has a painting of the event but did some Knights on foot actually use shields or is that just the painting?

Its one of my favourite images in fiction and games but I'm told either NO Knights or plated soldiers used shields full stop or they were used but used infrequently. Which one is true?

Also plate armour is best!
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>>587845
Hard to find sources of it going down in Antiquity. Some Roman sources but not sure if they are legit or exaggerations.
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>>587909
Shields are actually very dynamic, it doesn't always have to work for protection, especially for parrying. And not everyone had full plate. It's plausible that if they were going with an arming sword, they'd bring a shield
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>>587909
Occasionally they are mentioned as being used in the era of plate. Not often though.
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>>587952
>>587956
My dream of shield bashing and parrying plated warriors is saved. Thank you anons for making my night.
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>>587966
I never said it was the most viable option though, better to go with a lance or poleaxe. Even better; get a horse.
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>>587974
Far from it, just the fact it actually happened makes me happy. Though why a lance or poleaxe over a longsword? You get the blunt trauma if you half sword (?) it with the penetration of the blade.

As for horses, wasn't that suicide against bodkin arrows and longbowmen?
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>>587413
>Have battles ever come down to single combat and champion warfare?

Isn't that how the arabs used to fight?

They would put forward champions to duel and the winners could break the opposing forces moral.
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>>587828
Ceasefire means ceaseFIRE you apostate faggot
THROW DOWN
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>>587980
A poleaxe has a lot more weight to it's swing and even if it failed to penetrate a helmet it could still stun a man with one or two blows, the top spike also had a reasonable chance to pierce the weaker parts such as the visor.

As for horses: no not really, every time cavalry met archers in an unprepared site the cavalry simply charged and wiped them from the field. Cavalry had significantly less succes against walls of wooden stakes, pot holes and ditches.
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>>588024
Yeah, but it didn't decide the winner, they did that before the battle. In any case, It was a great way to start blood feuds.
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The elephant duel with King Naresuan
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>>587855
>Supposedly Samurai did this kinda stuff before the Mongols turned up.

Its a part of samurai warfare that is often exaggerated, but challeges on the battlefield were not unheard of in japanese history. I read about a peasent rebellion in the mid 1800's the peasents had already driven off one suppression force when another shows up, and its leader., an expert swordsmen, broke through the formation and challenged the enemy leader to single combat, killing him with a stab.

>http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/

"action, he gallantly advanced alone to meet the Japanese. He ran towards them till a bullet, one of the last remaining, struck him in the stomach; as he fell he stabbed himself with his sword sooner than fall into his enemy’s hands. Another Russian followed in shouting in defiance to the Japanese, and as he came on, a Japanese officer hurried to meet him. The two closed in an Homeric hand-to-hand in sight of the two armies and as they whirled their swords at each side rent the air with cheers. Now It seemed that the Russian was winning and the Russians thundered applause. Now again the Japanese had the upper hand, and hoarse ” Banzais ! ” rose from the Hiroshima infantry. Then the Russian went down before the skillful swordplay of his opponent, and a moment later he lay a corpse upon the hill. The Japanese officer ran calmly back to his line and took his place at the head of his men amidst a tumult of cheers, and almost at the same moment the long-looked-for ammunition arrived"

in the late sengoku there was also a heroic practice known as ichiban no yari, a warrior, and most likely his retainers would make an attempt to break through the enemy spear wall, creating a gap for the rest of the army. a warrior who succeeded in this, and survived, could make a name for himself.
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>>588218
Didn't Portuguese sailors slaughter the shit out of Samurai in duels? So much so Rapiers were banned from Japan?
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>>588233
where did you read "rapier" or "portuguese" in there?
Also
>nitpicking
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>>588233
Not to my knowlege, There is one story about rapiers quoted on that website from the headmaster of the shindo yoshin ryu

“Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned
his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….”


That webpage gives a number of primary and secondary source quotes on encounters between Samurai and European soldiers and sailors, suffice to say the Japanese at least held their own
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>>588254
Just bringing up an anecdote I read about the Portuguese fighting in single combat with the Japanese, after you posted about the Japanese besting a Russian.

>>588257
Yeah this, sweet
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>>588037
Also, having a poleaxe isn't an either/or with a sword. Have Poleaxe, have sword on your waist.

>>587413
Native Irish warfare would have this pretty regularly, due to the small combat sizes.
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>>588254
>>nitpicking

Seriously? That's on topic with the thread. Weeb pls go.
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In single combat, a lance, poleaxe, spear or anything else is the last thing you want to rely on...
Long arms were intended to be used in mass formations, where their defensive lackings can be corrected by densely packing them together.
In single combat, as soon as that pole arm is blocked, side stepped, deflected, etc. there is no second attempt, and the guy wielding it gets cut down.
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>>588311
If their an idiot that doesnt know how to use a spear or poleaxe maybe
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>>588311
>In single combat, as soon as that pole arm is blocked, side stepped, deflected, etc. there is no second attempt, and the guy wielding it gets cut down.
Boy, I can sure tell you've got a lot of HEMA experience.
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>>588315
No, if they're anyone. You seem to forget that the majority of the poleaxe is harmless wood. Getting inside that when theres no one to protect your flanks is pretty simple.
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>>588328
>harmless wood.
Would you volunteer to be struck in the head by a quarterstaff, full force?

>Getting inside that when theres no one to protect your flanks is pretty simple.
I'm sure you've done it plenty of time m80.
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>>588328
No its not, someone who is trained in a polearm has alot of options agaist a sword. They have Superior reach, weight, and leverage on their side, and a hard wooden shaft is a weapon in and of itself.

It is not easy to simply get past the tip of a sharp weapon, and many guys will train for what to do when it happens, they have little shortage of effective options
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>>588311
>I'm a moron and everyone should know.
>t. anime_enthusiast1999
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>>588334
>>588339
http://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-weapons/halberd-weapon/
Literally the first source on google.
"Moreover, the halberd footman had to be organised and stand close to each other so as to minimise the possibility of enemies coming at close quarters. Any defect in this organisation could easily diminish the efficacy of halberds."
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>>588349
>I cannot into reading comprehension
Obviously a halberd is most effective when the other guy can't even swing at you.

That does not mean that the halberd is not effective one on one, that wood is harmless, or that it's easy or simple to completely sidestep a weapon.

Pro-Tip: You can sidestep a sword in exactly the same way you're talking about.
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The first caliphate and muhammad have an unit specially trained for single combat, these unit would kill the enemy commanders and break the morale of enemy army.they used it extensively during their expansion in arabia and then against the persians and byzantines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mubarizun
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>>588357
>I cannot into reading comprehension
The quote I literally just cited was directly about how close quarters is the bane of halberds.
And no, you cant sidestep a sword the same way. If you deflect, side step, etc a typical bastard sword, its much easier to turn that swing around and come back for another hit. You cant really do that with a halberd, especially if the guy decides to move into your reach.
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>>588368
You have a hema guy explaining to you this is not as simple as you think. but lets look at a similar weapon on the other side of the planet, the naginata

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKYNnPcs23s


starts at 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHa9KUSCn3s


as you can see dodging a polearm is not a simple matter, and even if you block or sidestep, they have options.
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>>587909
they sometimes used them but it was kinda defeating the purpose of plate
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>>588334

If I had to choose I'd rather take contact from a staff than a blade, yes.
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>>588428
a wooden staff could smash your skull, it could even knock you out with a steel helmet.
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>>588397

>katas

dropped

have you ever been in a full contact fight?

I did a stint in the SCA, and for sure sword and board has a distinct advantage 1 v 1 over the polearm.

Formations favor polearms, but when those formations break you'll want your sidearm.
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>>588435

I said contact. A blade will fucking slice you if it so much as glances or runs past your skin, leave aside a full strike like what you describe. A wooden pole will leave you just fine short of a clean hit.

The level of danger when dealing with blades is far and above that when dealing with simple poles, and that's why you see poles used for contact practice.
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>>588442
That's why I also posted the kendo vrs naginata match, they'll tell you the naginata usually wins. Hema guy was also trying to explain this to you from their end.

Also

>dropped.

Yeah that school also does full contact stuff, and two kata were the primary means by which samurai trained. if you watch you see where the weapon breaks, and the teacher seizes the opportunity to catch the students elbow and throw him to the ground without missing a beat. that training is very intense.

>Formations favor polearms, but when those formations break you'll want your sidearm.

naginata's were often used in open formations rather than closed ones like pikemen.
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>>588465
>I also posted the kendo vrs naginata match

you posted one match between fighters of differing skill.

I might as well post a 5 year old with a pike going against a grown man with a sword and evil on his side.

>Hema guy

who?

>open formations rather than closed ones

What do you mean by this? Formations designed for rapid movement rather than ones designed for sedentation, like a skirmish line against a shield wall?
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>>587909
>did some Knights on foot actually use shields

Do you know what's really useful for stopping missiles, arrows, boiling oil, etc?

A fucking shield.

but this is about single combat so just forget it I guess.
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>>588526
Open means there is wide spaces between them, often different guys would carry different weapons or even be mounted on horses.

>you posted one match between fighters of differing skill.

the people who demo at the kyoto taikai tend to all be high level practioners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X6wb0FC6Fg

here is a video of two people who both have hanshi or master teacher status
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFIDuDWJvWY

like I said the naginata almost always wins these matches
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>>588575
>my mistake on the last video, that seems to be a training session
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>>588575

those practice naginatas don't look like they weigh much.

Give two men a couple sticks and the one with the longest one will probably touch the other first. But stick a metal bit on the end of the long one and give the other guy a balanced sword with maybe a shield and ask them to kill or maim each other and the game changes.

Do you know of any period sources that mention this issue?
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What happened to this thread
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>>588587
I know which weapons were used in melee in japan on the early medievel battlefield via the works of Dr Karl Friday and Dr Thomas Conlan.

The only swords used as a primary weapon along side pole arms were massive nodachi that could be well over four feet in length and crushed as much as they cut, they were popular because they didn't break but they were also very expensive. They are quite a different weapon from the side arms worn around town.


There are of course accounts of duels, Bokuden killed a naginata user with a nodachi like the one I described,

>those practice naginatas don't look like they weigh much.

neither do the shinai which are considerably longer than most non battlefield katana. but yeah the naginata is a ko naginata, a stand in for a womens self defense polearm. a war naginata is such a heavy weapon that sparring safely with it would not be very easy, but when swung with force it can be virtually unblock able.

what I am saying though is talk to koryu, hema or kendo guys who play around with polearms and they will tell you the sword man does not have much of an advantage and getting inside is not easy
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>>588622

polearmfags decided to emigrate their cancer from /tg/
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>>588633
>getting inside is not easy

granted, but it's way easier than getting inside a sword.
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>>588688
>granted, but it's way easier than getting inside a sword

of course it is, but that is made up for by a polearms superior reach. weight and leverage. The guy who has to get inside is usually at a disadvantage
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>>588680
>talking about weapons and duels without discussing the practical weapon handling.
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>>588713
>superior weight

I disagree, a heavier weapon is actually a disadvantage 1 v 1. Or else the sledgehammer would be the best dueling weapon yet conceived.
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>>588721

who are you quoting?

or are you just a salty refugee from the board that never gets anything done, /quest/?
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>>588724
a properly balanced polearm is way different than a sledge hammer. a heavy weapon can smash a sword or break the wrist of the man trying to block it with a lighter weapon. and with proper training the disadvantages are minimized
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>>588741
>a properly balanced polearm

The Grecian Dory with it's butt spike comes to mind.

Those Greeks sure loved their butt spikes.

>a heavy weapon can smash a sword

not really, though a sledge could

>trying to block it with a lighter weapon

or a shield maybe?
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>>588773

>not really, though a sledge could
unlikely to shatter, damaged or knocked out of the hand is more likely, even more likely the block will collapse

>Those Greeks sure loved their butt spikes.

the naginata at least always had a but spike the served to both counter balance and was also used to stab people
shield and sword is a whole different ball game.
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>>587855
>>588218
As I understand it, early Japanese warfare, like, before the Samurai class properly formed, involved two gangs/"armies" getting their armor and weapons together, meeting on the field of battle, laying the Dozens on each other, and then fighting.
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>>588798
Those accounts are now held to be rather romanticized, might have happened some times, just as likely they would come in the middle of the night and burn your mansion to the ground
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>>588680
Fuck
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