>>587413 Battle outcomes based on champion warfare are usually practiced by very ancient, small scale societies, who negotiate to limit violence by just having two best dudes duke it out.
Of course, it survived into early civilizations and even beyond, but by then it was a morale/socio-cultural thing and niggs didnt base whole battle outcomes around them. It also helped increase the fame and social standing of the warriors participating in the duel.
>>587909 Shields are actually very dynamic, it doesn't always have to work for protection, especially for parrying. And not everyone had full plate. It's plausible that if they were going with an arming sword, they'd bring a shield
>>587974 Far from it, just the fact it actually happened makes me happy. Though why a lance or poleaxe over a longsword? You get the blunt trauma if you half sword (?) it with the penetration of the blade.
As for horses, wasn't that suicide against bodkin arrows and longbowmen?
>>587980 A poleaxe has a lot more weight to it's swing and even if it failed to penetrate a helmet it could still stun a man with one or two blows, the top spike also had a reasonable chance to pierce the weaker parts such as the visor.
As for horses: no not really, every time cavalry met archers in an unprepared site the cavalry simply charged and wiped them from the field. Cavalry had significantly less succes against walls of wooden stakes, pot holes and ditches.
>>587855 >Supposedly Samurai did this kinda stuff before the Mongols turned up.
Its a part of samurai warfare that is often exaggerated, but challeges on the battlefield were not unheard of in japanese history. I read about a peasent rebellion in the mid 1800's the peasents had already driven off one suppression force when another shows up, and its leader., an expert swordsmen, broke through the formation and challenged the enemy leader to single combat, killing him with a stab.
"action, he gallantly advanced alone to meet the Japanese. He ran towards them till a bullet, one of the last remaining, struck him in the stomach; as he fell he stabbed himself with his sword sooner than fall into his enemy’s hands. Another Russian followed in shouting in defiance to the Japanese, and as he came on, a Japanese officer hurried to meet him. The two closed in an Homeric hand-to-hand in sight of the two armies and as they whirled their swords at each side rent the air with cheers. Now It seemed that the Russian was winning and the Russians thundered applause. Now again the Japanese had the upper hand, and hoarse ” Banzais ! ” rose from the Hiroshima infantry. Then the Russian went down before the skillful swordplay of his opponent, and a moment later he lay a corpse upon the hill. The Japanese officer ran calmly back to his line and took his place at the head of his men amidst a tumult of cheers, and almost at the same moment the long-looked-for ammunition arrived"
in the late sengoku there was also a heroic practice known as ichiban no yari, a warrior, and most likely his retainers would make an attempt to break through the enemy spear wall, creating a gap for the rest of the army. a warrior who succeeded in this, and survived, could make a name for himself.
>>588233 Not to my knowlege, There is one story about rapiers quoted on that website from the headmaster of the shindo yoshin ryu
“Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….”
That webpage gives a number of primary and secondary source quotes on encounters between Samurai and European soldiers and sailors, suffice to say the Japanese at least held their own
In single combat, a lance, poleaxe, spear or anything else is the last thing you want to rely on... Long arms were intended to be used in mass formations, where their defensive lackings can be corrected by densely packing them together. In single combat, as soon as that pole arm is blocked, side stepped, deflected, etc. there is no second attempt, and the guy wielding it gets cut down.
>>588311 >In single combat, as soon as that pole arm is blocked, side stepped, deflected, etc. there is no second attempt, and the guy wielding it gets cut down. Boy, I can sure tell you've got a lot of HEMA experience.
>>588328 No its not, someone who is trained in a polearm has alot of options agaist a sword. They have Superior reach, weight, and leverage on their side, and a hard wooden shaft is a weapon in and of itself.
It is not easy to simply get past the tip of a sharp weapon, and many guys will train for what to do when it happens, they have little shortage of effective options
>>588334 >>588339 http://www.medievalchronicles.com/medieval-weapons/halberd-weapon/ Literally the first source on google. "Moreover, the halberd footman had to be organised and stand close to each other so as to minimise the possibility of enemies coming at close quarters. Any defect in this organisation could easily diminish the efficacy of halberds."
The first caliphate and muhammad have an unit specially trained for single combat, these unit would kill the enemy commanders and break the morale of enemy army.they used it extensively during their expansion in arabia and then against the persians and byzantines
>>588357 >I cannot into reading comprehension The quote I literally just cited was directly about how close quarters is the bane of halberds. And no, you cant sidestep a sword the same way. If you deflect, side step, etc a typical bastard sword, its much easier to turn that swing around and come back for another hit. You cant really do that with a halberd, especially if the guy decides to move into your reach.
I said contact. A blade will fucking slice you if it so much as glances or runs past your skin, leave aside a full strike like what you describe. A wooden pole will leave you just fine short of a clean hit.
The level of danger when dealing with blades is far and above that when dealing with simple poles, and that's why you see poles used for contact practice.
>>588442 That's why I also posted the kendo vrs naginata match, they'll tell you the naginata usually wins. Hema guy was also trying to explain this to you from their end.
Yeah that school also does full contact stuff, and two kata were the primary means by which samurai trained. if you watch you see where the weapon breaks, and the teacher seizes the opportunity to catch the students elbow and throw him to the ground without missing a beat. that training is very intense.
>Formations favor polearms, but when those formations break you'll want your sidearm.
naginata's were often used in open formations rather than closed ones like pikemen.
those practice naginatas don't look like they weigh much.
Give two men a couple sticks and the one with the longest one will probably touch the other first. But stick a metal bit on the end of the long one and give the other guy a balanced sword with maybe a shield and ask them to kill or maim each other and the game changes.
Do you know of any period sources that mention this issue?
>>588587 I know which weapons were used in melee in japan on the early medievel battlefield via the works of Dr Karl Friday and Dr Thomas Conlan.
The only swords used as a primary weapon along side pole arms were massive nodachi that could be well over four feet in length and crushed as much as they cut, they were popular because they didn't break but they were also very expensive. They are quite a different weapon from the side arms worn around town.
There are of course accounts of duels, Bokuden killed a naginata user with a nodachi like the one I described,
>those practice naginatas don't look like they weigh much.
neither do the shinai which are considerably longer than most non battlefield katana. but yeah the naginata is a ko naginata, a stand in for a womens self defense polearm. a war naginata is such a heavy weapon that sparring safely with it would not be very easy, but when swung with force it can be virtually unblock able.
what I am saying though is talk to koryu, hema or kendo guys who play around with polearms and they will tell you the sword man does not have much of an advantage and getting inside is not easy
>>588724 a properly balanced polearm is way different than a sledge hammer. a heavy weapon can smash a sword or break the wrist of the man trying to block it with a lighter weapon. and with proper training the disadvantages are minimized
>>587855 >>588218 As I understand it, early Japanese warfare, like, before the Samurai class properly formed, involved two gangs/"armies" getting their armor and weapons together, meeting on the field of battle, laying the Dozens on each other, and then fighting.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at email@example.com with the post's information.