>>585356 They will never admit it. Just now there was a guy saying the holomodor was capitalism's fault in some thread out there. You have to understand that commies think they have a higher moral ground. Their entire personality is based on that. It's not easy to let this go.
>>585372 Communism isn't an ideology imposed as policy by a party, it is a social way of being amongst people. Marx hypothesises that it arises as a negation of the total alienation the worker experiences in the process of the production when he is outside himself and socialised as a collective worker: that communist relations will be this experience repurposed by self-control.
So there's actually a pretty easy test to determine if communism exists: 1) Was the society previously capitalist? 2) Has wage labour been abolished 3) Has the expansion of the value form, and the value form been abolished? 4) Do the people in society democratically control their behaviour as a collective?
You can then run this test over various societies, and even over sections. The Petrograd factory councils were tending to communise in 1917 and 1918, but this process retreated under the civil war with the Bolshevik party acting as a dictatorial state effectively reintroducing wages through rationing, and was halted by the introduction of the NEP.
Whether such a society is possible as the natural result of the conscious activity of the working class through its own organs or not is a political argument. But many of the features of communisation come forward in working class controlled social activity in history, such as the organisation of the Hungarian workers councils during October through December 1956.
Communists will never admit their system is shit because communism works very well for the people who promote it: left-wing intellectuals. They always end up becoming the ruling class of communist countries.
Another reason they will never admit that having communists ruling a country is shit is because they always cling to irrelevant and transitory periods as representative of "TRUE COMMUNISM" the "THE MAN" didn't allowed to flourish, see >>585390
>many of the features of communisation come forward in working class controlled social activity in history, such as the organisation of the Hungarian workers councils during October through December 1956.
Sure. Just like Catalonia under the CNT and Ukraine under Makhno were TRUE ANARCHO-COMMUNISM.
>>585390 So in all the cases you just specified communism is like a redistributive trade union.
The moment you need something outside of the communists' control you then have to trade for it.
And every single time, every single time an autocrat put themselves behind the wheel, ruining this communism that you blindly insist would exist.
The simple fact is communism is a dead letter. It is a confidence trick, much like organised religion, that puts power in to the hands of the snakes who push it. And they always forget their old alleigance to their ideals to rule over their flock with an iron fist, attacking every step of freedom as heresy, heterodoxy and so on.
Communism and the causes of communism must be annihilated.
>>585417 >communism is like a redistributive trade union. Trade unions rely on wage labour and "redistribution" of the value form requires capitalism.
>The moment you need something outside of the communists' control you then have to trade for it. >And every single time, every single time an autocrat put themselves behind the wheel, ruining this communism that you blindly insist would exist.
How many arrows did you trade for each deer?
The history of the repression of working class organisations by nomenklatura works nothing like that. Tito and Mao ran armed bands. Lenin seized the Tzarist bureaucracy intact. The Czech party launched a coup. The Red Army installed Rakosi.
>And they always forget their old alleigance to their ideals to rule over their flock with an iron fist, I'm pretty sure Durruti was shot through the heart. Nagy was arrested and executed.
Country with a socialist economy fails: it's the economy's fault Country with a capitalist economy fails: it's not the economy's fault
You can believe in capitalism without condoning anything bad that a capitalist nation has done, but if you don't, you're a cultist that needs to be forcefully reeducated and tried as an accessory to genocide
>>585404 >there are no people on /his/ who condemn both examples listed >omit that there were people in the Late Victorian Holocaust book thread doing precisely the above mentioned >guys I am le totally just as biased as you all are xDDD The greatest irony of all is that communists have approximately as workable and as intelligent a political theory as the anarcho-capitalists.
>>585554 >Huh. You have Tito on there. Don't you think it's funny how the country immediately fell upon itself and broke up the moment he died? Shouldn't that suggest something to you? By cherry picking that one example, you implicitly admit the rest are valid. >They were collapsing when oil hit it's peak prices a few years ago. This is not a new process. Decline is not collapse, even if his incompetence made it inevitable.
>>585586 Ho wasn't AS bad as people say he was. He actually wanted to be best buds with the US, but his fight for independence against France (and subsequent aid he got from China and the USSR) soured it.
If it weren't for the Fucking French wanting to keep Indochina, the Vietnam war wouldn't have been a thing. And furthermore, due to Vietnams historical animosity against China, they would have been pro west.
>>585586 Mao: laid the foundation for the nation that now makes all of our cheap shit Castro: later acknowledged his human rights violations, and Cuba now ranks high in HDI Ho Chi Minh: Ameriboo that only went commie because the West ignored his calls for independence that the reds happily listened to Pol Pot: covertly supported by the United States and was later toppled by another communist party that fared extremely better
Let's also just ignore how Chomsky is right about the US 99.9% of the time and made all of his predictions before Western involvement came to light
Mao: Chinese economy only reformed after his death. GDP immediately skyrockets as they begin to ape capitalism. Castro: HDI outside of Havanna GREATLY exaggerated. Ho: Was already a commie. Pol Pot: Khmer Rouge Brought to power by Mao's China, not the US.
>>585475 It's working right now. It raised the quality of life of the masses much more than communism ever did, without calling for bloody feuds. And it's more democratic than any long-standing communist government ever was.
For collectivist ideologies such as Communism and National Socialism to work, every individual must be conscious of their goals, and work together to achieve them. This is difficult for the average person to do.
Capitalism is just too easy in the age of computers, though if the prosperity ends abruptly we will definitely see a return to both above ideological frameworks, as well as Anarchism. Everyone capable will have to work together to pull their weight.
>>585720 that's just the exploitation of the third world that does that. it's not unique to capitalism. if communism was at all imperialist it would probably be successful as well, but that would defeat the point.
>>585721 No, I believe socioeconomic reforms will be made through democratic governments.
All the while they will have to juggle the economic sustainability of their reforms and their ideals of a fairer world. So it won't be a linear process.
And then, why would there be an "end" to human development, besides the extinction of humanity? This is the real world, not a narrative about the triumph of justice/freedom/goodthing over injustice/oppression/badthing.
>>585734 That's an oversimplification. The trade is far from equal, but even the developing nations have recently been seeing increases in some measures of "progress". They mostly lack the economic and political infrastructure to benefit more from their own natural resources and to invest their gains in the general population and industry.
I believe education and peace would do wonders in the long run, even if it meant our primary resources would be a bit more expensive.
>>585750 You believe the ruling class is an homogeneous group?
There are coalitions between groups that share interests, but from top to bottom, at each level, there are conflicts of interests, and your Marxist discourse, besides, falls in many of the pitfalls of so many economic models. Marx basically takes the perfectly rational, perfectly self-interested hypothetical man and merges it with it's group. Models that rely on this "homo economicus" have been demonstrated to hold little predictive and explanatory power.
>>585773 Marx: >The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible. >National centralization of the means of production will become the natural basis of a society composed of associations of free and equal producers consciously acting upon a common and rational plan. Sure sounds like central planning to me.
>>585586 Socialism of the 21st century was always Keynesian economics with a huge dose of "Socialist" populism.
It also doesn't help that Venezuela has always been a country where 99% of the state is corrupt as shit and it's insanely class stratified and has a PROVEN economic war being waged against it. (almost directly after the last election the PSUV got their asskicked shelves were suddenly stacked with expired goods that had been horded)
In terms of severe poverty reduction and recognition of indigenous and poor, Chavismo has been very successful despite the huge amount of corruption, it also has a very, very powerful grassroots which is good for any movement. I honestly think Chavismo would have been a lot more successful if it took place in somewhere that actually had somewhat functioning institutions for a "radical" social democracy.
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