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Here is an Orthodox FAQ and reading list...
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

Thread replies: 261
Thread images: 12
Here is an Orthodox FAQ and reading list I put together, if you're interested: http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x

But, main topic: Freemasons, and why Catholics and Orthodox don't like them. The answer is simple: they are trying to water down all the world religions so everyone has the same, very liberal, faith (this isn't about something sinister, but because they want to end things like religious conflict and division). This causes them to infiltrate religions and cause all sorts of problems. We've had two Ecumenical Patriarchs who were Freemasons (maybe more that we don't know about): the first, Meletius IV, recognized Anglican orders, and was the guy who started the movement to revise the Julian Calendar, which was partially accomplished by his successor (don't get me wrong, the calendar had to be revised, because if it is then it will be all out of whack with the seasons eventually, but the revision should have been something the whole Church did together, even if that took another hundred years, and it shouldn't have been pushed through for Masonic reasons, which is to align with Roman Catholics and Protestants). The second Mason Patriarch we had was Athenagoras I, and he got very buddy buddy with the Pope and rescinding the anathemas and all sorts of things.

So, this one reason why we don't want Masons in our ranks, because they have an agenda and owe allegiance to their fraternity rather than the Church. Most staunch Catholics also dislike the heck out of Masons, and while both of us want reconciliation, they'd agree it shouldn't be done through watering down, but rather through affirming a shared tradition.
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>only nearby Assyrian Orthodox Church in my area is run by indians
Just fuck my culture up
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>>578109
The Jewish Orthodox Church was the first one.
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>>578071

I don't see it on the FAQ, so why do Christians insist that there are no discrepencies between the Gospels when even a cursory, casual reading of them reveals that there are?
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>>578222
Could you please name some discrepancies that are irreconcilable? I would be happy to add your question to the next version of the FAQ, but I don't really want to hunt down each and every discrepancy that gets read into the NT.
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>>578248

All four Gospels give four different accounts as to what Jesus's supposed last words on the cross were. John doesn't even have the crucifixion on the same day as the other three, putting Jesus's execution at the time of the bringing of the paschal lamb, wheras the other three have it the next day.
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>>578265
Not him but the Bible is an icon, not God's word verbatim. Some people get triggered by the fact there are discrepancies and textual variations but personally it doesnt bother me
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>>578071
No hostility here, Constantine, but on what authority do you speak on these topics? Are you a catechumen? Layman? Clergy
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>>578295
*?
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>>578071
Great.

Don't forget the bit about how Orthodox priests lead anti-gay marches that have erupted into violence against homosexuals, and how the Orthodox church is split along ethnic lines which are embroiled in politics and systemic corruption that serves to inflame ethnic tensions and support ethnic cleansing.

Also don't forget to include the bit about how services in a non-slavic language are almost non-existent worldwide and how the small pool of people eligible to symbolically head the church in Istanbul have almost been wiped out by the genocidal policy of the Turks and may not last more than another generation meaning that the church as it has existed for two thousand years may end and be vastly different in the near future.
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>>578265
John's last words are authoritative. The other authors were not close enough to Christ to hear what he said, so they list it as a "loud voice".

The confusion about the day Christ died comes from differences in reckoning the day. In ancient Judaism (an Orthodox Liturgical reckoning), the day starts and ends in the evening. So what we'd call Thursday Night, is Friday morning by ancient Jewish reckoning.
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>>578295
Lay. I can source any answer you are unsure of.
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>>578323
> Don't forget the bit about how Orthodox priests lead anti-gay marches that have erupted into violence against homosexuals,

You say that like it's a bad thing...
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>>578323
The Liturgy at my parish is Greek and English.
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>>578342

>John's last words are authoritative. The other authors were not close enough to Christ to hear what he said, so they list it as a "loud voice".

So then why are the other books allowed to present a false teaching?

>
The confusion about the day Christ died comes from differences in reckoning the day. In ancient Judaism (an Orthodox Liturgical reckoning), the day starts and ends in the evening. So what we'd call Thursday Night, is Friday morning by ancient Jewish reckoning.

Can't be. They all make reference to the paschal offering, which would be at the same time regardless of when you consider your day to start and end. John says that it was at the same time that the offerings were being made, whereas the Synoptics all claim that the last supper invovled eating the paschal offering, and the crucifixion was on the day after that.
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>>578071
If that were the case then why not also excommunicate communists and liberals who have done far more damage to the church than any mason has and who are literally athiesitic and opposed to the very existence of the church?

>owe allegiance to their fraternity rather than the Church

Not true.
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>>578365
I love how you ignored every point except for the liturgy one.
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>>578371
>So then why are the other books allowed to present a false teaching?
They wrote first, and you're not supposed to tamper with Gospels. If the Church started "editing" Gospels, who would know what the Apostles actually said, and what the Church added?

>whereas the Synoptics all claim that the last supper invovled eating the paschal offering
Paschal offering in the Christian sense (Christ's Body), not the old sense. The Mystical Supper used leavened bread.

The Synoptic Gospels say that by the old system, the Mystical Supper is during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is not the same as eating the old paschal offering (the Lamb).
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>>578357

*tip*
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>>578434

>They wrote first, and you're not supposed to tamper with Gospels. If the Church started "editing" Gospels, who would know what the Apostles actually said, and what the Church added?

So then why include them at all, if by your own admission they contain errors?

>Paschal offering in the Christian sense (Christ's Body), not the old sense. The Mystical Supper used leavened bread.

No, John's pretty clear that they were making the paschal offering in the literal, old, Jewish sense. John 18:28 makes it abundantly clear that the priests had yet to eat the passover when Jesus was brought before Pilate, the day after the last supper, which guys like Mark and Matthew are pretty explicit about containing eating the passover lamb.

There was leavened bread because in John's conception of things, that "Mystical Supper" wasn't on passover, whereas the synoptic gospels are equally insistent that it was.
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>>578414
Well, a lot of your post is buzzwords, but I'll give a little substance since you sincerely requested.

Patriarch Kirill is seen as the embodiment of Orthodox corruption in the West, but a lot of stuff about him is really wrong. For instance, he had the picture with that expensive watch on that was photoshopped: when they asked him about it, he said the watch was a gift (there's nothing wrong with that), and that he didn't know it was photobshopped, and he would discipline the person responsbile, but for some inexplicable reason, a bunch of Western sources said he denied having worn a watch. Then there's the dust in the apartment thing: the apartment was very expensive, and given to Kirill, it's where all the elites of Russia live; he didn't want to live there, so he gave it to his cousin (who was made out to be his lover by Western media). Now the guy above did so much damage to it that you couldn't even breathe going into the room, so his cousin sued the guy for $400,000. When Patriarch Kirill was asked about this, he said the guy should learn a lesson, but that his cousin could afford to repair the damage herself so all the money from the lawsuit was going to charity (not mentioned by Western media, and Kirill didn't toot about it a lot either because you're not supposed to do that with charity).

So you see, where you get your impressions might willfully be distorting the truth.
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>>578476
>So then why include them at all, if by your own admission they contain errors?
Because they're all of sound doctrine. Furthermore (as I mentioned in the FAQ), the Gospel of John was written and reserved for initiated Christians.

>John 18:28 makes it abundantly clear that the priests had yet to eat the passover when Jesus was brought before Pilate
Right, the Passover Lamb was slaughtered that day, and eaten that evening.

>There was leavened bread because in John's conception of things, that "Mystical Supper" wasn't on passover, whereas the synoptic gospels are equally insistent that it was.
It's a new covenant passover. Christians would already know this. Something else, for instance, that was written with Christians already knowing in mind about, is the Sabbath. Matthew 28:1 says in Greek that Christ's Resurrection was after the Sabbath, "As it was dawning on the First Sabbath" (it's not generally translated like this in English, but that is literally what it says in Greek). This is incoherent unless you were already a Christian and understood that Christ's Resurrection was the very first Sabbath of the New Covenant, and was right after the old Sabbath.
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>>578476
>There was leavened bread because in John's conception of things,
BTW, NONE of the Gospels use the word for unleavened bread at the Mystical Supper
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>>578523
>Right, the Passover Lamb was slaughtered that day, and eaten that evening.

I don't think I'm quite being clear.


All 4 gospels agree on the same general progression: Last supper, Getshemane, arrest, trial before Ciaphas, presentation before Pilate, Crucifixion.

John, in 18:28, is pretty clear that before the presentation before Pilate, the passover lamb hadn't been brought, ergo, it must be an earlier date than any of the other three, which all claim that the passover lamb was eaten during the Last Supper.

>>578553

>BTW, NONE of the Gospels use the word for unleavened bread at the Mystical Supper

Then they're claiming Jesus sinned, which is patently unthinkable. Not to mention Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12 and 14:17, and Luke 22:7 and 15 are all pretty clear that it was a passover meal.
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>>578357
>You say that like it's a bad thing...

Violence against peaceful individuals is always a bad thing.
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>>578477
That Patriarch and the corruption wasnt in that post, you are strawmanning
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>>578600
Well I can't really address your points because they are too vague. In the U.S., for instance, the Orthodox have national Churches, but they are very multi-ethnic in many places. My Church is Greek Orthodox but there are Ethiopian Orthodox who take communion there, as well as black converts to were baptized or received by the Greek Orthodox Church.. There's a whole Mexican family there that convert. The Antiochian Orthodox Church, in U.S., a third of their clergy are converts. The British Orthodox Church was founded by British Converts to the Coptic Church.
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>>578639
Whats vauge about Orthodox priests blessing government weapons and them being involved with anti gay violence?
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Genuine question: why/how does God love us despite all our sins?

How do you learn to love unconditionally?
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>>578676
Orthodox priests bless government weapons because that's part of ministering to soldiers. They bless pretty much everything: http://www.sadanduseless.com/2014/02/blessed-everything/

They aren't involved in anti-gay violence. Orthodox priests might lead rallies opposing gay marriage, but saying they are involved in violence against gays on any substantial level is a bit tenuous.
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>>578717
God's love isn't a verb, it is his very being.

As for loving truly unconditionally, it's close to impossible in a state of sin. Theosis is required. It's a constant struggle of failures day in and day out.
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>>578736
>Orthodox priests might lead rallies opposing gay marriage, but saying they are involved in violence against gays on any substantial level is a bit tenuous.

Getting old ladies to threaten gays with stinging nettles whilst holding improvised weapons and shouting slurs at homosexuals is hardly tenuous.
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>>578109
What's wrong with that?
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>>578323
oh god da poor homosexual babbies
dose evil churchmen

Russians do as Russians do. To blame Orthodoxy, a decentralized Christian group, as a whole for this is ridiculous.
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>>578222
We know. But it's been analyzed and explained since the time of Augustine.
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>>578762
Some old ladies beat up a gay guy with nettles?
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>>578814
No 16 people got beaten up (which the church who organized this didn't care about), however that was just an example of the absurdity of the East Orthodox
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>>578845
They were all gays?
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>>578853
There doesnt seem to be a source on nature of the injured, however the fact they were heavily outnumbered and there are tons of pictures of police having to hold the East Orthodox protesters back.
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>>578911
Though the video footage seems to show only gays who seemed to number a couple dozen compared to 20ish thousand getting roughed up
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>>578911
How do you know most of the protesters were Church-going Orthodox (70% of Russians identify as Orthodox and support the Church, but only 10% actually practice)? How do you know the priest was the one urging the violence? How bad were the injuries?
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>>578911
Who cares, that cancer can't be allowed to spread.

It's a stupid identity and a stupid movement. Honestly the protestors should be glad that they live in a Christian country and not a Muslim one because they all would have been butchered if they were.
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>>578926
>How do you know most of the protesters were Church-going Orthodox

Well it was orgainsed by an Orthodox priest and clergymen were involved in the demonstrations and didnt condemn or attempt to stem the violence

Media on both sides including the Russian times identifyed it as a protest by Orthodox. [though it did happen in georgia).

> How bad were the injuries?

16-28 injured and about 14-16 hospitalized.
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>>578926
>How do you know the priest was the one urging the violence?

The fact some of the preists were armed with improvised weapons, were yelling slurs and leading the mobs seems to indicate that.
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>>578964
Could you show me the pictures of the priests with weapons?
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>>578954
>Media on both sides including the Russian times identifyed it as a protest by Orthodox. [
I'm sure it was organized by the Orthodox Church, since it was a disruption of a gay parade. But there's plenty of not practicing religious people in Eastern Europe who don't like gays.
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>>578987
The best I can find is a video of a priest armed with a stool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L0rDK0LIyEI

At about the 30ish second mark.
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>>579000
Also here is a video of a preist attacking a bus with gays in it during the protest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvWQO27-fSc&feature=share
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>>578323
>Don't forget the bit about how Orthodox priests lead anti-gay marches that have erupted into violence against homosexuals
Link?
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>>579000
>>579005
It's the same priest in both videos. He used the stool on the bus, he threw it at the front bumper. While I don't condone hurting people, I don't really see anything wrong with throwing stools at the bumper of a bus that's being used for a gay parade.
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>>579012
https://www.rt.com/news/anti-gay-clashes-tbilisi-421/

Plus some of the videos in >>579000
>>579005
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>>579022
Is that how you rationalise the East Orthodox church's decision to coerce and intimidate homosexuals?

>I don't really see anything wrong with throwing stools at the bumper of a bus that's being used for a gay parade.

Because it incites people around you to violence, its escalating a tense situation.
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>>579033
>Is that how you rationalise the East Orthodox church's decision to coerce and intimidate homosexuals?

I should express this better. Do you think that corecion and intimidation like that are compatible with the East Orthodox conception of love that you ascribe to ?
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>>579033
While I don't see coercion or intimidation wrong in disrupting promoting sin, I don't subscribe to hurting people (Christ probably just brandished the scourge).

That said, you're right that in this context, it increased the possibility someone would be injured by violence, and was the wrong thing to do. Hopefully the priest mentioned it to his confessor.
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>>579042
I think it is an act of love considering the fact that LGBT shit in those countries is funded by George Soros types and the US state department with the sole desire to subvert and weaken the family values of the nation.
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>>579067
Its that kind of ends justifying the means thinking that allow all kinds of horrid ideologies to take root.
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>>579067
>i think violence is an act of love

and dropped
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Also according to the BBC reports it was the preists who got the police to remove the barricade so that the protestors could accost the gays.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p018zzpg
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Can anyone recommend me some Orthodox black metal?
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>>579114
Doing them harm is wrong, full stop, but I don't see anything wrong with accosting gays who are getting together and publicly promoting homosexuality. You let it go unchecked and it leads to guys parading around with toy phalli and leather thongs.
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>>579101
>>579092
A fucking stool on a windshield.

But also yea, sometimes violence is necessary. I'm not orthodox btw I'm Polish Catholic and I see no problem using violence to protect your people tbqh from a US State department / Soros funded astro-turfed movement.
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>>579133
http://deathtotheworld.com/
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>>579137
Yeah lets just ignore all the people hospitalised.
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>>579136
So its okay to scream death threats and destroy private property of gay people because if you dont the whole country will go like SanFransisco?
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>>579182
Are they using that private property to promote homosexuality as a group? Yes, destroying it is okay.

No, threatening to kill them is not okay.
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>>579187
>Are they using that private property to promote homosexuality as a group?

Does taking a bus or a van (note they didnt bring any posters of megaphones and the like) or bringing cameras or simply the clothes on your back count?

>Yes, destroying it is okay.

Its probably this kind of mindset which led to atheism and socialism in the East being so violent and destructive compared to the West.

>No, threatening to kill them is not okay.

Then what type of intimidation or coercion do you see as being legitimate?

Also by this reasoning is it likewise acceptable to coerce and destroy the property of atheists, muslims and protestants?
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>>578071
Consider Jesus never existing.
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>>579206
>Does taking a bus or a van (note they didnt bring any posters of megaphones and the like) or bringing cameras or simply the clothes on your back count?

Is it being used to promote homosexuality? Is it part of the demonstration? If yes, then I think damaging it is a fine way of saying, NO, WE DON'T TOLERATE THIS IN OUR COMMUNITY.

>Then what type of intimidation or coercion do you see as being legitimate?
The kind Christ used with the money changers.

>Also by this reasoning is it likewise acceptable to coerce and destroy the property of atheists, muslims and protestants?
Not unless their promotions lead to things like homosexual promotion does.
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>>579222
Noice trips.

Have you read the Atheist FAQ?
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Freemasons don't discuss politics and religion in their meeting. It's a brotherhood that basically serves as a club where people can make sincere friends and grow personally. The mysticism is there for the flavour.
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>>579248
No, I haven't read it.
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>>579247
I'm picturing a Muslim community in, say, Bosnia or Malaysia doing the same thing to people who try to promote Christianity in their community, and you getting really mad.
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>>579247
>Not unless their promotions lead to things like homosexual promotion does.

Why not? hasnt athiesm, protestantism, islam lead people into sins far greater than that of mere homosexuality?
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>>579272
Well at least take a look at it, since it addresses many of the atheist objections to Christianity.

>>579266
http://www.trueorthodoxy.org/non_christian_others_freemasonry_condemnations.shtml

>>579275
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you, and persecute you;
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>>579291
Gonna need a link.
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>>579280
There have been plenty of wicked Orthodox Christians. I'm more concerned about actively promoting sin, than painting people with broad brushstrokes.

Now, Wahhabi Islam, that's another story.
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>>579295
It's in the OP
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>>579275
You have to remember that for him what those christians were doing was out of love and goodness which is not the case for Muslims.
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>>579304
Justifying the evil acts of your priests by pushing off the blame to another religion seems cowardly.
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>>579304
>There have been plenty of wicked Orthodox Christians

Atheists literally turn people away from God en masses and persecute the faithful how is this not worse than sodomy? How are athiests and Muslims not actively promiting sin there.

> I'm more concerned about actively promoting sin, than painting people with broad brushstrokes.

Yet you are willing to lump every single mason
into one category despite the decentralised and diverse nature of them.
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Freemason reporting. I'm here to join this thread and subvert your beliefs in order to seek reconciliation between sects.
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>>579312
What could be a greater form of love than trying to lead people to Allah?
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>>579337
yeah but Allah is not love hence leading people to him out of love does not count
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>>579353
Well, personally, I love people, and I want them to experience eternal salvation through Allah.

You don't mind if I suicide bomb your gay little Christ thing do you?

It's for a greater good.
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>>579305
>http://pastebin.com/bN1ujq2x
It's rifled with errors. First off, we don't know who wrote the gospels. The Q source theory isn't backed up by any evidence, the much more accepted view is that Mark was written first and the others followed. The wording on the gospels doesn't even give rise to the 'disciples of Christ' writing the gospels, they're the gospels ACCORDING to etc meaning those people are the source not the writers. Secondly, people made up fake sources all the time in the ancient world.
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>>579315
What do you mean, where did I do that?

I said I wouldn't support disrupting Islamic gatherings, even for promoting their religion. But I made an exception for Wahhabi Islam.

>>579324
>Atheists literally turn people away from God
Quite the reverse. New atheism is loved by people who are already turned away from God fully, but to all others it is jarring and can actually turn them *toward* God.

>Yet you are willing to lump every single mason
Muslims, Jews and atheists don't infiltrate the Church to change it. None of them do that, they would see that as disrespectful. Masons do not have any such respect.
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>>579361
Is there any substantial reason to doubt the account of Papias of Hierapolis?
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>>579365
>Quite the reverse. New atheism is loved by people who are already turned away from God fully, but to all others it is jarring and can actually turn them *toward* God.

Thats the vocal minority, atheists are behind the exclusion of God from the education system and the introduction of abortion laws.

Likewise Muslims literally convert people.

>Muslims, Jews and atheists don't infiltrate the Church to change it.

Yeah they just grab political power then supress or destroy the church.

> Masons do not have any such respect.

Which modern masons are working towards the subversion and destruction of the church and why should all Masons receive the harshest sanction despite the majority of them literally doing no harm to the church.
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>>578323

>no liturgies in non-slavic languages

Romania and Greece are both heavily Orthodox and they do not speak Slavic languages. Sorry.

>Don't forget the bit about how Orthodox priests lead anti-gay marches that have erupted into violence against homosexuals, and how the Orthodox church is split along ethnic lines which are embroiled in politics and systemic corruption that serves to inflame ethnic tensions and support ethnic cleansing.

Humans sin.

>how the small pool of people eligible to symbolically head the church in Istanbul have almost been wiped out by the genocidal policy of the Turks and may not last more than another generation meaning that the church as it has existed for two thousand years may end and be vastly different in the near future.

Sadly true. But really the only thing worth worrying about in your whole post. Try to keep it more concise next time than post things you aren't for sure exist, it's an easy way to mislead people.
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>>579373
Seems like a mistranslation.
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>>579389
>Thats the vocal minority, atheists are behind the exclusion of God from the education system and the introduction of abortion laws.
The ones who overtly promote atheism are counter productive to this, though.

>Likewise Muslims literally convert people.
The more zealous they are about, the less friendly people feel toward Islam. If Muslims are being peaceful about that, they either are drowned out by the dangerous Muslims, or they actually triumph and make Islam ore peaceful; it's a win-win.

>Yeah they just grab political power then supress or destroy the church.
Satan has always been the ultimate lord of worldly power. I'd rather a hateful dictator start persecuting the Church, than to have a bunch of Masons running it. The Church has survived the worst of persecution, but the Spirit lives on. But if Masons started running things, they'd lead Christians into apostasy and shatter the integrity of the Church from within.

>which modern masons are working towards the subversion and destruction of the church
We don't know because we don't find out they're Masons until after their dead (obviously, since they'd immediately be excommunicated if we did) and the Masons themselves blatantly say they were Masons.
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>>579394
>But really the only thing worth worrying about in your whole post.
It's not really worth worrying about. If Constantinople ceases to be the Ecumenical Patriarchate for one reason or another, then Moscow would take over. And they are actually WAY more conservative, if anything it would insulate the Church from heresy even more.
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>>579408
>y promote atheism are counter productive to this, though.

Which is why I said athiests and not new athiests in my other posts.

>
The more zealous they are about, the less friendly people feel toward Islam. If Muslims are being peaceful about that, they either are drowned out by the dangerous Muslims, or they actually triumph and make Islam ore peaceful; it's a win-win.

So its cool to turn people away from God as long as it benifits the church in the long run eh.

>Satan has always been the ultimate lord of worldly power. I'd rather a hateful dictator start persecuting the Church, than to have a bunch of Masons running it. The Church has survived the worst of persecution, but the Spirit lives on. But if Masons started running things, they'd lead Christians into apostasy and shatter the integrity of the Church from within.

Is that your opinion or actual doctrine?

>We don't know because we don't find out they're Masons until after their dead (obviously, since they'd immediately be excommunicated if we did) and the Masons themselves blatantly say they were Masons.

The groups are pretty dam public and all their documents and "secrets" are online. Banning all masons based on the action of few hundreds of years ago seems to be rather hysterical approach. Masons havent been a political force for hundreds of years and even then it was limited to a couple of countries, rather than a systemic goal to overturn the church.

If liberals 200 years ago in the habbit of infiltrating the clergy would it be justifyable to excommunicate all democrats in these times?
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>>579416

It would be sad to see, really. One of the oldest religious communities on the planet being slowly wiped out.
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>>579444
>Which is why I said athiests and not new athiests in my other posts.
Well are talking about the active promoters of something, or just people who hold the belief? Because I thought this was a parallel to damaging property at a gay rally, not going to the houses of gay people and smashing their blenders.

>So its cool to turn people away from God as long as it benifits the church in the long run eh.
I don't think there are many Orthodox Christians converting to Islam.

>Is that your opinion or actual doctrine?
My opinion. It is better the Apostles were all persecuted, than all Judases.

>Masons havent been a political force for hundreds of years and even then it was limited to a couple of countries, rather than a systemic goal to overturn the church.
Are you denying that the two Patriarchs I cited were heavily influenced by their Masonry?

>If liberals 200 years ago in the habbit of infiltrating the clergy would it be justifyable to excommunicate all democrats in these times?
If democrats held their own religious services, and had the express intent of watering down ll religious differences, and held loyalty to their party above loyalty to the Church, absolutely.
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>>579453
It's sad, but that Patriarchate had been heavily influenced by the U.S. government and Masons for a long time, so it might be better in the long run.

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."
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>>578763
Saint Thomas Christians are a thing and should remain that way.
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>>579493
They're in communion with Anglicans, so no, they shouldn't.
>>
>>579466
Both, not all people promote thier goals through things as simple as rallies

>I don't think there are many Orthodox Christians converting to Islam.

So it doesnt matter if its happening to non eastern orthodox?

>My opinion. It is better the Apostles were all persecuted, than all Judases.

What is the doctrine on the matter?

>Are you denying that the two Patriarchs I cited were heavily influenced by their Masonry?

Ive googled them and come up with 1 Wikipedia page which is pretty scant. Can you provide evidence of these figures trying to overturn the East Orthodox Church due to their masonary?

>If democrats held their own religious services
Neither do Masons.

>had the express intent of watering down ll religious differences

Democrats tick this box, although its hard to pin this on the Masons who have orders specifically restricted to Christians and dont water down religious difference any more than a football club does.

>held loyalty to their party above loyalty to the Church, absolutely.

Its loyalty only exists to the extent of not revealing rituals which is pretty much a moot point at this stage. Hardly something to auto excommunicate about.
>>
>>579476
>It's sad, but that Patriarchate had been heavily influenced by the U.S. government and Masons for a long time, so it might be better in the long run.

Do you have some articles on that?
>>
>>579498
Are they really? Ew. I apologize.
>>
>>578071
What can you tell me about the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch?
>>
>>579174
Are you talking about the people who for beat by protestors or the priest?

I was talking about the priest. I honestly don't care about a few hospital injuries because I know how important those traditional values are to making a nation strong and I know that strong nations can better protect its people.

Honestly, fuck your small minded world-view.
>>
>>579524
>Both, not all people promote thier goals through things as simple as rallies
Rallies are more overt and can be responded to more overtly.

>So it doesnt matter if its happening to non eastern orthodox?
I don't see many Oriental Orthodox converting to Islam, and it seems highly unlikely given that they had to endure generations under Islam. The ones left associate Christianity very strongly with their identity, like the Copts.

>What is the doctrine on the matter?
Better to die than to give control of Christ's Body to Satan.

>>579524
>Ive googled them and come up with 1 Wikipedia page which is pretty scant. Can you provide evidence of these figures trying to overturn the East Orthodox Church due to their masonary?
I can give evidence they both went to America and became Patriarchs and got elected and transferred from there, one after being kicked out of Greece for his efforts. I can also say they both knew that Masonry was absolutely not okay in the religion, and therefore could not be sincere Orthodox...you won't get excommunicated for sodomy, but you will get excommunicated for Masonry, and they knew that.

>Democrats tick this box
They can't. They vote for the U.S. government policy, they don't vote for Church policy.

>Hardly something to auto excommunicate about.
Do you deny that Masons have worship?
>>
>>579546
The protestors who beat the people* or the (young - this is important desu) priest who threw the stool at the windshield.*
>>
>>579530
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Meletius_IV_(Metaxakis)_of_Constantinople

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenagoras_I_of_Constantinople

Read the whole articles.
>>
>>579553
>I don't see many Oriental Orthodox converting to Islam, and it seems highly unlikely given that they had to endure generations under Islam. The ones left associate Christianity very strongly with their identity, like the Copts.

So that yes then.

>Better to die than to give control of Christ's Body to Satan.

In your view during the height of the Catholic Churches power was it under the control of Satan?

>an give evidence they both went to America and became Patriarchs and got elected and transferred from there, one after being kicked out of Greece for his efforts. I can also say they both knew that Masonry was absolutely not okay in the religion, and therefore could not be sincere Orthodox...you won't get excommunicated for sodomy, but you will get excommunicated for Masonry, and they knew that.

I meant like actual sources like articles and the such.

>They can't. They vote for the U.S. government policy, they don't vote for Church policy.

Neither do the laity of the Masons.

>Do you deny that Masons have worship?

I do, unless you define worship in the sense that at the start people say single a prayer to their own God at the beginning of initiations which is something that isnt even done in all lodges.
>>
>>579566
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenagoras_I_of_Constantinople

How is ending the tit for tat excommunications proof of him being a Masonic agent acting to wreck the Church? The post vatican II Catholics likewise made simmilar acts. Nothing really changing dogma there.

>http://orthodoxwiki.org/Meletius_IV_(Metaxakis)_of_Constantinople

That article seems to show it was less a case of him doing that because he was a freemason but because he wanted to drum up political support from the UK.

Something that makes a lot of sense when you realise this happened during the middle of the Greco-Turkish War and things were starting to go against the Greeks.
>>
>>579622
*Even your own article discusses this in its retirement section.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAxuDumN2hE
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>>579858
Thank you
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>>579636
This is from the guy who posted the video...
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>>579973
It's the guest that matters, not the posts of the person who posted the video.
>>
>>579498
>>579536
Only the Mar Thoma Syrian Church.
>>
>>579858
Good, idiots like you should hide Constantine so we don't have to constantly hear your inane kvetching.
>>
>>579985
Yea but he's also the host of the show.
>>
>>580023
What does any of this have to do with the validity of what's being discussed?
>>
>>578071
What a supreme misunderstanding of Masonry, and apparently church leaders. You seem to be blaming a group which would supports the religion you prefer, based on your ignorance.

>>579291
Those condemnations aren't necessarily founded.

>>579553
>Do you deny that Masons have worship?
Pretty much everyone who actually knows what they're talking about does.
>>
Freemasonry depending on the lodge is a cool concept. You start a movement. You form a corporate body. As more members are added so are the shares. No matter how rich everyone is everyone has equal share. No matter what bad a person or group has done within freemasonry. The freemasonry lodge cant get hurt but the people therein must get reprimanded if any bad has been committed and not the group itself but the individual. However everything discussed therein must stay there. And no one is allowed to use the copyrighted symbols unless they have right by having a share. It is the most freedom oriented crowd and equal rights party. They are involved in human rights and civic. It is a constitutional thing. Everyone, every people has its good and bad.
>>
>>580016
The Mar Thoma are cucks and cannot be considered as a "St Thomas" church. Same with the St Thomas Evangelical Church.

These two shouldn't be included in that list or if so, shown as deviations from the Nasranis.
>>
>Saying something, on 4chan, is bad because it hurts gays
Can't expect to get far
>>
>>579858
Thanks senpai

>>578071
Heretic pls go
>>
>>579622
Can you respond to this Constantine? It seems like you are mischaracterising the masons.
>>
>>581155
No argument from me there. The trip said that St. Thomas Christians were in communion with the Anglicans as if that was true of all them, it is only true of one minor schism that has assimilated to protestantism.
>>
>>578265
>All four Gospels give four different accounts
This is a typical Atheist quandary.

Four witnesses of a car accident will see different things. Had the accounts been exactly the same, you would have claimed that the bible was made up as a conspiracy by Titus.
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>>583781
>that guy that thinks Christianity was a conspiracy by Titus
>>
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Was John the Baptist the second coming of Elijah?

In Malachi, the return of Elijah is prophesied.
>“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
>Malachi 4:5-6

In Matthew 11, Jesus makes it sound like John the Baptist was the second coming of Elijah.
>Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
>Matthew 11:11-15

In Matthew 17, Jesus says that Elijah has already returned, and the disciples assume that it was John the Baptist who was the returned Elijah
>Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
>Matthew 17:11-13
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>>584180
The problem with all this is that in John 1, John the Baptist says that he isn't Elijah.
> Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.”
>They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”
>He said, “I am not.”
>“Are you the Prophet?”
>He answered, “No.”
>Finally they said, “Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
>John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”
>John 1:19-23

So what do the Christians of /his/ think?
Was John the Baptist Elijah?
Are we still waiting for Elijah?
Does Revelation say anything about Elijah?
>>
>>578323
Patriarchate survived under turks for about 500 years and counting. If Turks want to genocide orthodoxy, they are really doing a bad job since 1453.
>>
>>578109
>Assyrian Orthodox
>Indians
You mean Malankara or the Jacobite Syriac Church? Because the Assyrian Church is defined (and kept standing in all honesty) by Assyrian Nationalism.
>>
>>578071
Both Catholics and orthodox are stupid
>>
>>578401
Why would a communist (or most liberals for that matter) join a church in their first place? Someone has to be a member before you can excommunicate them.
>>
>>578585
Fag
>>
>>584222
The Greek community of Constantinople has been almost destroyed though
There's only a couple of thousands of Greeks living there
>>
>>584272
Both the "Assyrian" and "Syriac" churches have parishes worldwide, naturally some of these will include or be dominated by Indian communicants.
>>
>>584180
The coming of Elias is two things.

1. A metaphor for John the Baptist.

2. Elias's return proper, which will happen before the Second Coming of Christ, and Elias will be martyred

t. Orthodox
>>
>>584292
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

They want to improve their economic conditions whilst the church is tied to the existing dictatorship or status quo
>>
>>584427
The Church is tied to governments which protect her.
>>
>>584433
Its often a fairly abusive relationship unfortunatly
>>
>>584393
So we're still waiting for Elias/Elijah? Will he be martyred in the end times described in Revelation, or will he come and be martyred before then?
>>
>>584460
It certainly was with Russia, starting with Peter the Great. After the fall of the USSR, the relationship is more equal, though.

>>584483
End times, I believe.
>>
>>584487
When it comes to secular authority what is the best example of it in practice and what would be best system in the view of the church be?

Also bumping for a response on the freemason stuff
>>
>>584501
The Church thinks the best example system is everyone being very observant Christians, which would mean you didn't need a state.
>>
>>584511
Has there ever been a "golden age" of this?
>>
>>584519
Before the fall, sort of.
>>
>>584519
Early Utah.
Those weird Russian cults centered around some guy pretending to be Jesus. Maybe they've got the wrong religion according to the church but it seems to work out well.
>>
>>584542
Yeah but its kinda hard to use how two people acted in pefect abundance compared to billions in scarcity. Is there no other example or model?
>>
>>584563
There's enough food produced to feed the entire planet.
>>
Any Copts on here? Any recommended readings for someone considering conversion?
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U
>>
>>584573
Yeah but remember the fall created the need for things like medicine and the like which there isnt really enough for especially under current population densities - which makes it not only hard to produce but is alienating.
>>
>>584576
Why would you convert to the coptic church over the Eastern Orthodox?
>>
>>584585
Atheist petaling this stuff are doing a disservice, historians overwhelmingly support the idea of a historical Jesus, at the same time, they think he was an apocalyptic Jewish preacher who thought the would would soon end.

Why go against an academic consensus that is already in your favor?
>>
>>584633
Because some people actually care about truth.
>>
>>584648
Ok you and your few fringe historians have the truth while the academic consesus is full of crap.

maybe, but consider the system they used to conclude there was a historical Jesus (however different he was from how he was portrayed in the bible) is the same method we rely on to evaluate all historical events and persons without direct evidence.

You look like you just grasping at straws.
>>
>>584659
The system they used was conjecture.
>>
>>584659
He also covers the system they used in his book Proving History.
>>
>>584679
This is history, all of our conclusions are necessarily based on incomplete information. We deal in what is probable based on surviving accounts and evidence. and I personally do not find that videos case compelling.

If your not comfortable with that then history isn't for you.
>>
>>584695
You're the one who seems uncomfortable with something. You talk about systems when the system they used is grasping at straws too, that's the nature of the situation in Biblical studies.
>>
>>584542
The fall of what? Rome? Because still no.
>>
>>584722
The fall of man, I think he's talking about. Or the "fall" of "Lucifer" and his angels. One of the two.
>>
>>584733
... Oh. I was expecting a more... terrestrial example.
>>
>>584737
This is what you get when you enter a Christian thread, be more wary next time.
>>
>>584687
Like I said, i don't find his case very compelling. the research he sights certainly helps explain how quickly Christianity evolved.

There is in fact fragmentary accounts of Jesus and Christianity outside the epistles that predate the gospels.

Besides which the gospels while propaganda, do contain strong similarities and information about Jerusalem that strongly suggest an oral tradition originating in Judea .

I am searching through the video and I have yet to see the part where he addresses the scholarly consensus and refutes it.

It would certainly make it easier if Jesus could be shown to have likely never existed, but things are not that simple.
>>
>>584737
There will be after the restoration of all things.
>>
>>584501
>Also bumping for a response on the freemason stuff
Which stuff?
>>
>>584710
As an atheist myself, I am very uncomfortable when I see atheist endorsing these fringe theories, because it only makes us look stupid.
>>
>>584747
Indeed. But do you have any proof of it working on humans, then?
>>
>>584744
>There is in fact fragmentary accounts of Jesus and Christianity outside the epistles that predate the gospels
And what is that? Point me in their direction. Before the gospels would have to be 60AD, if you say Nero, I'll have to say that's more conjecture.
>>
>>584756
>do you have any proof of a system requiring you to not sin working with humans who are so helpless to sin they needed God to come down in human form to die for them
>>
>>584754
I assure you his work is sound. He has a peer reviewed book out.
>>
>>584771
Why is it secular historians widely accept that Buddha existed, but the existence of Jesus is contented so much?
>>
>>584762
Off the top[ of my head, There are fragments of early Christian prayers that predate the gospel account, I forget the name of the book that contains them.

It references Jesus and David as "God's sons" note that this seems to place Jesus and David on equal terms and is indicative of early Jewish Christianity
>>
>>584776
it is not widely debated by secular historians, being peer reviewed does not make it the academic consensus, which any historian of the period will tell you is that Jesus was a historical person.
>>
>>584779
I hope it's not the Ascension of Isiah or 1st Clement because he covers those too.
>>
>>584779
Jesus was always seen as the incarnation of the Wisdom of God. See the Wisdom of Solomon 7, and Proverbs 9.
>>
>>584787
Its not, its a prayer book describing prayers for early sacramental ceremonies
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>>584792
That still doesn't support historicity, you're not convinced by his arguments because you're not listening to them.
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You're in the club when this guy says your gf has a fat ass

He then says he didn't really say that your gf has a fat ass because your gf's ass doesn't actually exist and his comment was still trapped within the virtual of the primary causes of the universe

What do you do?

Bear in mind this nigga has 'Celtic eloquence' (t. Prudentius) and was reared on 'Irish porridge' (t. Synod of Valence, 849)
>>
>>584798
No, I dont find his arguments compelling, he does not in my opinon show why the consesus is wrong.

When I was a recovering Christian, it would have been very easy for me to cling to something like this, but it does not hold up. me makes a good case but he does not address the consensus in any meaningful way. The historical critical method suggests Jesus was a real person and I have seen nothing to change my mind
>>
>>584811
Read Proving History.
>>
>>584813
Why dont you cite some relevant passages from the book or give me a time stamp from the video, rather than ask me to read a book or watch a hour and a half lecture? Maybe if your citations are convincing I'll give it a another look.
>>
>>584818
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNd7u7CY2U0
Here's a talk on it.
>>
>>584821
>>584585
>some curly haired fop who has never published a work of peer-reviewed historiography
lmao
>>
>>584818
Just watch it when you have the time.
>>
>>584821
do you know what a citation or time stamp are?
>>
>>584770
Yea. That. You were saying there was some golden age, after all.
>>
>>584834
There sort of was, before the fall of man. But our relationship with the material was different then (see A6f of the atheist FAQ).
>>
>>584827
His book is peer reviewed, you dimwit,
>>584829
I'll tell you what, I'll watch the video tomorrow and timestamp the important parts for you.
>>
>>584748
The stuff about the Masons trying to inflitrate and ruin the Orthodox Church. There seems to be decent enough evidence that he is falsely attributing the actions of some partiarchs to them being Masons.

>>584776
Well Eurocentrism for one thing but significantly Buddhas existence or non existence has zero bearing on the truth of the Religion whilst Jesus being as described in the bible is the foundation of it.

Its for the same reason errors in the Koran are more serious than errors in the bible
>>
>>584901
>The stuff about the Masons trying to inflitrate and ruin the Orthodox Church. There seems to be decent enough evidence that he is falsely attributing the actions of some partiarchs to them being Masons
The mentor of the second Mason Patriarch was the first Mason Patriarch. They both went to America and were elected from there. The Second One actually traveled over to Constantinople on Airforce One (referred to as "Sacred Cow").
>>
>>584908
Well according the article thats because he was in exile due to what was happening in Turkey. Why should we attribute his push to reconcile with the Anglicans as a mason thing and not one to drum up Anglo support during the war against Turkey which was starting to turn against them and needed serious British support.
>>
>>584938
He was in exile because the King of Greece said GTFO

The Orthodox Church already had good relations with the CoE, he was pressuring Patriarchs outside of Constantinople and Greece to recognize Anglican orders.
>>
>>584957
>He was in exile because the King of Greece said GTFO

Yeah because the King was purging people linked to the Venizelos goverment all around. This effected priests as much as military men.

>The Orthodox Church already had good relations with the CoE, he was pressuring Patriarchs outside of Constantinople and Greece to recognize Anglican orders.

Yeah but the War took a disastrous turn after the Battle of Sakarya which literally happened a few months earlier and whilst he was doing this the Greeks were begging for more help from the Allies and even attempted to coerce the British into helping them by threatening to occupy Istanbul which failed rather nastily.

Anglo Greek relationships were literally at their lowest whilst he was trying to do all of this.
>>
I'm seriously thinking about convert into orthodox.

Actually I'm spiritist. I became a byzantiumboo cuz paracucks and /gsg/.

I sought for an orthodox greek church nearby but there is only of polish jurisdiction. It's the same thing?

What to do?
>>
>>584901
>There seems to be decent enough evidence that he is falsely attributing the actions of some partiarchs to them being Masons.
People always need something else to blame. Masons are just what the lazy people use.
>>
>>585093
Its kind of a complicated issue as given his faith he accepts all policies of the Orthodox clergy, which means he literally cannot disagree with their view on Freemasonary without contradicting his faith and his virtue of obedience and humility.
>>
>>585117
Zealots are fun.
>>
>>585023
The primary Orthodox Jurisdictions in America are the Antiochian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox. These "flavors" of Orthodoxy are not that different. For instance, I am Greek Orthodox and can go to Antiochian Orthodox Church and receive Communion. The doctrinal differences are non-existent because all Orthodox confess the same faith.
>>
>>585128
Only when they are in no position of influence or power.
>>
>>585164
But Im farily sure the Coptics wont let you
>>
>>584776
In modern scholarship it's actually the opposite. For instance we actually know which decades Jesus lived in, but historians are unwilling to make conclusive statements about when the Buddha lived or the events of his life.
>>
Regarding the other thread over Proverbs 8, the words in Proverbs 8 is a title, as expressed in Colossians 1:15. It's used as an equivalence to יָלַד , which is generally the maternal version of begot. Notice the Nicene Creed uses ποιηθέντα to mean "created", in contrast with begotten, so there is no confusion.
>>
>>585175
No, they will let him if he lives in Egypt, is married to a Coptic woman, or there isn't an Eastern Orthodox Church within driving distance. Several Ethiopian Orthodox receive communion at my Greek Orthodox parish. The Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches are very close to full communion, and each recognize each other as equally valid and the True Church, the main thing is wrapping up jurisdiction so we don't have two Patriarchs of Alexandria, etc.
>>
>>585199
Just adding on to my post in >>585011 would it be correct to say that because things like >>585117 you cannot consider such alternatives in good faith?
>>
>>585219
The guy was kicked out of Greece for working to foment a civil war, I don't think he really cared about Greco-Anglo relations.
>>
>>585229
And, let's not forget that right after he was exiled from Greece, he went to England to talk with the CoE about unifying the Churches.

Oh, and he was kicked out of the Holy Land before that

>Meletius was evicted from the Holy Land by Patriarch Damianus, along with the then-administrator Chrysostomos, later Archbishop of Athens, in 1908 for "activity against the Holy Sepulchre." Meletius Metaxakis was then elected Metropolitan of Kition in Cyprus in 1910.
>>
>>585229
That didnt really answer my question about your openness to alternatives.

>The guy was kicked out of Greece for working to foment a civil war,

He was kicked for not backing the King and the continued and expanded invasion of Turkey.

>I don't think he really cared about Greco-Anglo relations.

What grounds do you have to base that on? The explanation seems more credible than your conclusion which ignores all context and based solely on the fact he was a Mason at some stage of his life.

Its no different than those people who make antisemtic arguments and conspiracies
>>
>>585248
He was trying to bring down the king in the middle of a war with Turkey. It's pretty clear winning wars against the Turks wasn't a major concern for him.
>>
>>585236
>Oh, and he was kicked out of the Holy Land before that

Do you have any more info on that and was he Mason when he was doing this? It was before his trip to the US which you linked to his corruption.

>And, let's not forget that right after he was exiled from Greece, he went to England to talk with the CoE about unifying the Churches.

Actually it was after he was sent to bring canonical order among the Orthodox congregations in the US.
>>
>>585267
The Masonic lodge he was a member of is in Greece.

I link America to his corruption because Freemasonry is basically the state church of America.
>>
>>585259
>He was trying to bring down the king in the middle of a war with Turkey.

Which part of the wiki page or source are you referring to here?

>It's pretty clear winning wars against the Turks wasn't a major concern for him.

It isnt unless you are referring to a new source.

Im also still quite curious about >>585117 and your ability to consider alternatives in good faith.

Would it be correct to say that nothing could change your view on the legitmacy of the Orthodox ruling on Masonry?
>>
>>585270
>The Masonic lodge he was a member of is in Greece.

All they state is that he was a member it doesnt say anything about when he was one or for how long nor does it have anything about his position in it.

>I link America to his corruption because Freemasonry is basically the state church of America.

Which is why its significant that this incident took place before he went to the US.

Also its a bit rich to call the masons a church.
>>
>>585273
>Which part of the wiki page or source are you referring to here?
I'm referring to his support of liberalization.


>Would it be correct to say that nothing could change your view on the legitmacy of the Orthodox ruling on Masonry?
If the Masons ceased to have their own alters and prayer and basically be a religion.
>>
>>585276
>All they state is that he was a member it doesnt say anything about when he was one or for how long nor does it have anything about his position in it.
If he became a Mason after being kicked out, that would be all the more incriminating. But I seriously doubt it, to become a Mason, you have to be invited, and it's going to be someone you know very, very well.
>>
>>585283
>I'm referring to his support of liberalization.

How does having liberal sympathies translate into trying to overthrow the king in the middle of war or create a civil war

>If the Masons ceased to have their own alters and prayer and basically be a religion.

By your definition Congress would become a church then as it uses opening prayers as well. What research have you actually done into masonry that uses primary sources?
>>
>>585276
>Also its a bit rich to call the masons a church.
But that's exactly what they are. They're just very liberal when it comes to other religions (so are Unitarians and Quakers, for instance).
>>
>>585286
>If he became a Mason after being kicked out, that would be all the more incriminating.

Yeah but the issue is you are basing all your claims on the mere fact that they list him as being a member on the website with nothing more said.

>you have to be invited, and it's going to be someone you know very, very well.

You truly know nothing of the Masons. They are literally forbidden from doing that. Its one of their core tenants through history.

You can only become one by seeking them out and asking to become one.
>>
>>585298
>But that's exactly what they are

Are you sure you actually understand the Masons?
>>
>>585292
>How does having liberal sympathies translate into trying to overthrow the king in the middle of war or create a civil war
He must have had very significant sympathies with those trying to depose the king, it's not like he was randomly selected to take the old Archbishop of Athens' place as soon as the king was deposed. He was shooed in for a reason.

>By your definition Congress would become a church then as it uses opening prayers as well.
Congress has vestments and an alter?
>>
>>585300
>Yeah but the issue is you are basing all your claims on the mere fact that they list him as being a member on the website with nothing more said.
He was the personal mentor of the next Masonic Patriarch, who also was elected from America, and was sent over to the Ecumenical See in Airforce One.

>You can only become one by seeking them out and asking to become one.
So you're saying he was seeking them out after he was a bishop, and *then* rose to great power? Because that doesn't look very good at all.
>>
>A Church of England report into compatibility of Freemasonry and the Church[16] reached conclusions of objection based on six points. One of these points was Knight's interpretation of Jahbulon; "JAHBULON, the name of description of God which appears in all the rituals is blasphemous because it is an amalgam of pagan deities. In effect, use of the term is taking God's name in vain." The interpretation of the word as discussed by Knight led certain churches to include it in their justification for objections to Freemasonry. These churches state that, conjoined with a number of other aspects of Freemasonry, it demonstrates that Freemasonry is incompatible with their religious philosophies.[17][18][19][20]

http://www.equip.org/article/anglican-synod-concludes-freemasonry-is-heretical/
>>
>>585307
>He must have had very significant sympathies with those trying to depose the king, it's not like he was randomly selected to take the old Archbishop of Athens' place as soon as the king was deposed. He was shooed in for a reason.

Sympathies =/= subversion and trying to overthrow the king and start a civil war.

>Congress has vestments and an alter?

Where they keep the cermonial mace before the raised podium of the speaker.

>He was the personal mentor of the next Masonic Patriarch, who also was elected from America, and was sent over to the Ecumenical See in Airforce One.

Once again all you have is mere assocaition. Like those people who talk of Zionist subervsion or cultural marxism.

>So you're saying he was seeking them out after he was a bishop, and *then* rose to great power?

Im saying you have a fundamental misunderstanding of Masonary if you think they only gain members through solicitation.

Thats akin to saying Christians Worship Mary or Saints.

>Because that doesn't look very good at all.

You dont even know when he became a mason or his involvement. Its like me saying Trumps policies are a result of Presbyterianism because he was a member of one of their churches
>>
>>578071
In the Atheist FAQ you made a mistake. In A6 you refer readers to the Orthodox conception of hell in A7, then do the same in A7 but instead referring them to A6
>>
>>585270
>The Masonic lodge he was a member of is in Greece.
Source? Membership records are usually easy to get a hold of.
>I link America to his corruption because Freemasonry is basically the state church of America.
U fukin wot, m8?

>>585286
>to become a Mason, you have to be invited
Complete opposite. You strictly cannot be invited, you have to ask to join of your own free will, and favourable opinion preconceived of the institution.

>>585298
That makes no sense.

>>585316
Ignorant fools there. Much wiser members of the same church refute their baseless claims regularly.
>>
>>585316
Is cherry picking something that is only wrong when non Orthodox do it?

It was a modern creation used in small independent sub groups/chapters - ie not the actual masons themselves. Likewise its not even used in Anglo by those specific ones anymore.
>>
>>585381
>The synod revealed that its five non-Mason committee members found a “number of very fundamental reasons to question the compatibility of Freemasons with Christianity.”
Translation:
>They didn't know what they were talking about, or had any idea of the nuances or big picture, but they were sure it was something wrong.
>>
>>585357
the three Hebrew letters literally read BAL
>>
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>>585410
>>
Constantine given some of the fundamental mistakes you have about the Masons (especially their recruitment) do you think it might be worth investigating the matter further and from a broader selection of sources?

Can the Church not be wrong in their strict and dogmatic judgment of the Freemasons?

>>585410
Royal Arch chapters =/= Masonry
>>
Is Constantine still awake
>>
>>585437
He always goes quiet in matters like that, I saw a similar thing awhile back when people questioned his support for Assad or when Zorastraianism was brought up.
>>
>>585410
Indeed they do. Perhaps you should brush up on Chaldean if you don't know what that means, though.

>>585436
>Royal Arch chapters =/= Masonry
Well, no. HRA is the Ne Plus Ultra of Craft Freemasonry.
>>
>>585273
>Would it be correct to say that nothing could change your view on the legitmacy of the Orthodox ruling on Masonry?
How exactly is their ruling not "legitimate"? It's their church, they make it up, they say you cannot be a Mason and be part of the church, how can that not be a "legitimate" ruling? How exactly are masons entitled to be part of their church? especially when their manuals explicitly say they want to unionize all faiths?
>>
>>585447
>especially when their manuals explicitly say they want to unionize all faiths?
Source?
>>
>>585445
matters like what? I was just asking because I wanted to chat with him
>>
>>585446
what's the significance of the word when written in Hebrew on a masonic symbol for God?
>>
>>585451
The link he posted here
>>579291
>>
>>585467
No no, source from the "manuals" (ceremonials?) stating that.

>>585463
My apologies, it's Assyrian, not Chaldean. And it means Lord or Powerful. But you have to look at it individually, and together with the rest.
And what do you mean, "Masonic symbol for God"?
>>
>>585483
in Hebrew, it means husband or a slave's owner. otherwise applied it means the pagan god

a triangle, sometimes with an eye in it, is a masonic symbol for God
>>
>>585496
Well no, in Hebrew "Beth" means "House", or words to that effect.
>otherwise applied it means the pagan god
Are you thinking of Baal? Which again, you have to look at the word itself, and what it derives from.
>a triangle, sometimes with an eye in it, is a masonic symbol for God
No, not really. It's a Christian symbol for God, absolutely. But to say it's a Masonic symbol is a bit disingenuous.
>>
>>585483
It quotes a Mason manual and a Mason journal.
>>
>>585447
>How exactly is their ruling not "legitimate"? It's their church, they make it up, they say you cannot be a Mason and be part of the church, how can that not be a "legitimate" ruling?

They are free to ban masons as a mater of faith legitimately but its illegitimate when they ban based on a specific criteria which masons do not fulfill.

Hence a government can create any type of road speed laws, however it becomes illigetimate when they fine you despite you being within the bounds of those laws.

>>585467
When it comes to unionising all faiths I think its a tad tenous to use the French as a source given their divergence from the mainsteam in that they even have athiest and women lodges.

Not to mention that site also includes sources which seem to see them as a Jewish consipracy.
>>
>>585511
It misquotes it though, those terms in the parenthesis are a hostile addition.
>>
>>585511
I'm only seeing a third party French magazine. Where's the "manual"?
>>
>>585510
BAL is the same word as Baal. The former is a transliteration, the latter is a translation. It's the difference between YHWH and Yahweh.

"Beth" is just one letter. The letters are Beth, Aleph and Lamedh
>>
>>585496
>a triangle, sometimes with an eye in it, is a masonic symbol for God

It predates the Mason use of it is thoroughly christian representing the trinity and providence.
>>
>>585527
Hes refering to Pikes Morals and Dogma particulary this quote

"Masonry, around whose altars the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahmin, the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one God who is above all the Baalim, must needs leave it to each of its Initiates to look for the foundation of his faith and hope to the written scriptures of his own religion. For itself it finds those truths definite enough, which are written by the finger of God upon the heart of man and on the pages of the book of nature. Views of religion and duty, wrought out by the meditations of the studious, confirmed by the allegiance of the good and wise, stamped as sterling by the response they find in every uncorrupted mind, commend themselves to Masons of every creed, and may well be accepted by all."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/md15.htm
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>>585533
what is your point? Christians don't write "Baal" on the triangle
>>
>>585528
>BAL is the same word as Baal.
Kinda. Bul, when used, is just the word Lord/Powerful. Which is why it leads into their word for God, as Baal.
The main point being, that simply saying Bul doesn't equate to referencing the Phoenician deity.
>>
>>585538
I thought that might have been it, but i wasn't sure, since it doesn't speak for unionising churches so much as just everybody getting along as individuals.
Laymen really seem to have trouble with Pike, but always so keen on using him.
>>
>>585540
Hebrews didn't use the word "Baal" to refer to God
>>
>>585548
Indeed not. Your point?
>>
>>585546
At least they only added the words [is that religion], ive seen people create whole chapters about world war 3 and plots to use islam to destroy europe
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>>585555
if they wanted to use an appropriate Hebrew word, there's Adonai. BAL as god in hebrew always means the pagan god
>>
>>585585
>always
Ya'll don't know much about Hebrew, eh?
But regardless, it isn't in Hebrew. It's Assyrian. Otherwise, the character there is Beth.
And the Hebrew word there is a different one to Adonai, but is indeed one of the 72 names, though it too has other meaning.
>>
>>585602
it is in Hebrew, those letters are Hebrew

it wasn't one of the names used in the Bible, the "priests of Baal" are always of the pagan deity.
>>
>>585631
>those letters are Hebrew
Yes, but it's spelling an Assyrian word, to be studied on it's own, and then compared to the other two letters.
>it wasn't one of the names used in the Bible
No, the other ones are. Good Lord man, just read the ritual. Scottish or Australian, preferably, since the English neutered theirs for no good reason, and the Yanks are useless.
>>
>>584829
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNd7u7CY2U0
35:36-49:11
>>
>>586997
I actually agree with him to a point on the criterion of embarrassment, though I would not call the criterion entirely useless. That said its not s important since there is very little consensus on which stories in the gospels have a basis in reality.

I do disagree with his reading of the baptism of Jesus, I think its far more likely the bits about Jesus's superiority were added to justify this bit that does not fit the Christian narrative. I actually consider the Gospel of Mark very embarrassing to modern Christians, nor do I think it in its unaltered from really looks like a full myth, in that it ended abruptly with no answers.

I mean he is certainly well informed, but alot of his stuff depends on his own personal reading of the texts in question. The whole reason we rely on the historical consensus is it makes these personal quarks less likely to matter
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