If Calvinists believed in predestination, then why would they

Predestined for dubs

There is no predestination.

God has foreknowledge, i.e He knows what's going to happen (hence the Bible telling us what will happen in the future end times).

But God does not 'actively' choose and rig the world. Everyone chooses to accept or reject salvation, it's free will.

God knows who will get saved and who won't, but He is not "choosing" as Calvinists claim.

Calvinism, just like Anglicanism, is basically Protestant Popery.

>take scripture
>systematize it like the Catholics did

>>563601

I don't get this, how can god not be responsible for peoples choices if he created the environment and conditions people make them in AND the people, knowing all the ramifications beforehand. Maybe it's just me being dull but I really can't see any scenario where a creature has any real choice in a system created by an omnipotent and omniscient creator.

>>563628
Think of it like this.

You're watching a sports game, and then video tape it. You then watch it with a friend.

You already know the outcome of the match, but you had no effect on it. You didn't cause the game to go how it went. You only knew because you had foreknowledge (you've seen it already).

God, before He made the universe, already knew exactly what would happen.

>>563581
You don't understand.

If they live like degenerates then clearly god predestined them to go to hell.
But if they live moral hard working lives then clearly god predestined them to heaven.

You still have a choice for all intents and purposes, it's just that god knew the answer before you did.

>>563641

The way you explain it it feels like god didn't have much of a choice on the way he created the universe. But isn't he the one who decided to create the universe in the way he did, knowing that it'd lead some people to be saved and some not? How does that leave room for choice?

Reminder that protestantism is glorified augistinianism and that the church solved all this shit by the year 1000.

>>563704
>all protestants are calvinists
Stop this meme.

Plenty of Christians who disagree with the predestination heresy.

>>563675
The way I see it, God saw numerous versions of reality or universes.

He looked at them all and chose 'this' one as the most optimal. Maybe all the others were much more brutal, evil, sinful realities.

Like reading a bunch of books, and God decided that this universe/history is the best book to open.

The end of human history will be in glorification of God, it will have a good ending.

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>>563590
It would seem that you were pre-destined to fail at spreading your heresy according to your own doctrine. :^)

God knew you before you were born.

God knows you better than you know yourself.

All your limbs, cells, atoms, the inside, outside, every conscious or sub-conscious thought, word and action. Every inch you move your body.

God sustains life - even the most hardcore of atheists God loves and gives an entire lifetime of a chance for repentance.

>>563724

I think you're placing limits on omnipotence with that interpretation, by definition it couldn't have been impossible for him to create a universe where all was well.

>>563729
>muh traditions
>muh creeds
>muh councils

Orthocucks.

God has pre-determined for me to have for free will.

How He does it of course is one of those great mysteries of that not get revealed itself to us.

>>563746
Says the one that adopted the Islamic influences of predetermination.

>>563745
Free will would result in us sinning and rebelling against God.

So I think every "book" or "alternate universe" would have us rebel against Him.

It's just a case of how bad it gets.

The plan of Jesus Christ was in formation ever since the creation of the universe.

God promised a saviour to Adam and Eve.

>>563792

Honestly that still sounds like placing limits on god's omnipotence. If he's truly omnipotent he could've created a universe where everyone both has free will and be saved (since it's apparently already happening I'm assuming this is not a contradictory statement).

>>563873
Actually it speaks volumes about us as His creation being rebellious to Him.

It shows God's perfect love to mankind (through our Lord Jesus Christ).

It shows God's perfect justice to mankind (through the judgments and hellfire).

God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful.

He lets Satan alive to allow man to choose. Do you want to live with your Heavenly Father or do you want to be a rebel with the devil?

>>563764
Muslims got it from Christians, not the other way around, you Tatar fuck.

>>563641
This is a shit example, as I'm not the creator and prime mover of every fucking atom involved in that sports game.

>>563900
I hate the whole "perfect justice" thing.
God isn't constrained to have to punish.
>>563907
Except Arabia was a spawning point of massive heresies, and it shows in Islamic theology.
They couldn't have gotten it from us.

>>563873
>If he's truly omnipotent he could've created a universe where everyone both has free will and be saved
That would defeat the purpose. Our success in existence is based on two variables - our actions, and our intentions in maneuvering our reality.

As a Muslim, I personally believe that only the most depraved people will be thrown into Hell, with many being put into purgatory (the wall between Jannah and Jahannam, "Al-Araf") for a time.

>>563955
Literally 5 seconds of googling would show you that people who believed in predestination existed centuries before Mohamed was even born.

>>563975

All the actions and intentions are brought forward because of the way god set up the universe and created everything while knowing the end result, how is this not predestination? How are people not being punished arbitrarily? How can free will exist when creatures are so terrifyingly dwarved by concepts like omnipotence and omniscience? I feel like noone really thought this through.

>>563975
How does it feel that the Vatican created your religion?

It's why Catholicism and Islam have so much in common.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0otULYzms

>>563764
>>563955
>>564009
Islam isn't predeterministic like you think it is. It's basically what >>563601 says.

God determined our world/universe for us, but he doesn't determine our actions. We can tap into a spiritual source called "Nūr" or "Light", but that's about it for God interfering apart from with Prophets.

We had no part in it, yes, but we have been given the chance to become close to Him.

>>563581
Because it was predestined they do so, checkmate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLoUq8vybzY

Allah = Satan, the fallen angel.

>>564046
They created a faith that has an explicit focus on refuting/destroying the idolatry of Prophet Jesus and his Mother Mary, and which disagrees on almost everything with them apart from predestination/freewill?

You Evangelists are absolutely mental.

And Islam has more in common with Orthodox Christianity than it does with Papism.

>>564071
Jesus HIMSELF said that He was God.

What's your answer to that, Mohammedan?

>>564096
Secondly, Mohammed's contact with an "angel" is questionable.

He mentioned getting choked or assaulted.
He ran to his wife for protection.

Sounds like a demon to me.
An evil spirit pretending to be Gabriel.

Islam is a false religion, get out of it.

>>564096
He never did. You're the heresy, and Islam is the return.

Anthropomorphic "gods" are pagan-tier. Saul of Tarsus and other men edited the Bible to fit the desires of pagan men they wished to convert.

I could go on, but I don't think you'll listen.

>>563746
Calvincucks are much worse. Traditions, Creeds and Councils are practically witness to the Truth alongside Scripture. This is why they all dependently coincide together as one. To alter the balance is to destroy this coincidence and create room for heresies, just like Protestantism.

And also, Islam is deterministic just like Calvinism,

http://www.islamweb.net/kidsen/Kids%20Corner%201,2/subjects/emanbelkadar.html

In fact, even before Islam, the Gnostics themselves believed in predestination in the Calvinist sense.

>>564047

It seems to me that predeterminism logically results from omnipotence and omniscience though.

>>564096
I don't recall that ever happening and I'm Catholic, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are separate beings combined into the Trinity after Jesus died

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>>563746

>>563900
>God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful.
>do you want to live as I tell you, or do you want to spend an eternity in sufference?
Sorry m9, but I'm not seeing either the mercy nor the justice here. I'm just seeing coercion through infinite violence.

>>563652

This. It's based that even if it's predestined, you can get a clue about if you're going to heaven or hell by how you act here. Have you been blessed with an industrious mind and virtuous body? Then chances are pretty big you're among his chosen ones.

>>563746
>muh sola scriptura based on council decided (aka tradition) canon
And you call other cucks? Top kek.

>>563581
>god created you knowing that you would misbehave and end up in eternal suffering
How is predestination not blasphemous as fuck? It pretty much implies that god is an arbitrary sadist.

>>564192
Dosen't Job sort of confirm God is a bit of a dick about this shit?
>Hey God, I bet if you fuck this guys life up he won't believe in you, signed Satan
>Watch this faggot. I'll kill his whole family and his liveliehood, signed God

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>>564180
What if I don't act badly to my peers and on the outside I'm an open-minded, rational, successful, and relatively unnarccistic person but I hide my horrible drug addiction from everyone?

Is my drug addiction an affront on God because even though all my life I have strives to not hurt others physically and emotionally, I am hurting myself as an outlet? Why do I view myself in such low regard? Why do I hate myself?

>>563652
No, there is no choice here, only a puppet acting out according to parameters God had set out prior to his act of Creation.

Satan's own rebellion against God himself, God planned out before Satan made him, same with how everything would end up.

>>564218
That's OT shit, it's like tier 2 canon. If Jesus (tier 1 canon) says something in contradiction, he wins out. So god is supposed to be good and kind.
Also if god is not good, why bother doing what he says. He might very well be lying about heaven, or be lying about us having to do what he say to get in, etc.

>>564115
Paul kept the teachings of Christ.

It was emperor Constantine, 300 years later, that mixed Christianity with Paganism and created the Roman Catholic Papal system.

>>564240
There is literally nothing in the NT contradicting Job.

>>564240
I'm a Catholic so don't give a shit about the OT but don't Protestants love that shit? They fucking obsess over Numbers and Genesis

>>564218
>forgetting that God restored Job and doubled his money, family and livestock

>>564240

Job is an exploration of the Problem of Evil. I can't remember Jesus ever putting together a very strong theodicy.

>>564255
>don't give a shit about the OT
The theological prowess of Catholics right here.

>>564265
>Just a prank bro: The Bible Experience

>>564265
Oh so it's perfectly ok if I fuck you up, as long as I pay you damages?

>>564270
>Giving a shit about outdated books Jesus literally ignored whilst preaching
And Protestants have the nerve to pretend they aren't Jews

>>564231
Depends entirely if you'll overcome it or not. It's either a punishment or a rite of passage you're meant to overcome.

>>564253
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

Even more salt on the Calvinist wound

>>563641
But in your example it would only be the same if I also made every single one of the players and everything about them, and the universe itself, and the laws of the game and the laws of physics as well, and set all of it in motion

>>564273
>>564271
God created you so he can do whatever he wants with you

Like how is this even a debate?

You owe your life to God

>>564284
>wikipedia

Catholics using Atheist sources, even more proof that you're both spawns of the devil.

>>564292
God only created the circumstances in which I existed, not the actual human being called me. Why the fuck would he grant any measure of personal agency otherwise you protestant dipshit?

>>564292
>your parents created you so they can do whatever they want to you
>even if they tie you up and leave you in a basement as a rape toy you should be grateful!

Actually that is infinitely kinder than what your god is meant to do to people, ie damnation.

>>564303
The whole NPP was founded by a Lutheran scholar for crying out loud.

Here, the radiance of Protcuck theology.

>>564304
God created Adam which is the original and superior human.

>stronger
>smarter
>bigger
>lived to be almost 1000 years old

God created the human anatomy you retard. Your limbs, cells, atoms, organs, everything. God designed the way you look like.

God knows your mentality and thoughts, you're like a child to Him.

A rebellious child (atheists) or a loving child (believers).

>>564274
>Jesus literally ignored

Matthew 5:18 you illiterate Cuckolic

>>564275
So in the end from a human standpoint it is up to me? God knows what will happen and if I will overcome or succumb to it, but as a human observer to this world I do possess free will yes?

If an omniscient entity created the world I think that line of thought makes sense.

>>564320
>God created the human anatomy you retard. Your limbs, cells, atoms, organs, everything. God designed the way you look like
I highly doubt God hand crafts every fucking human being, guys so slack he's omnipotent and has a break day on the 7th. Jokes aside genetics is a real thing so he obviously planned ahead and stopped caring after after Adam, Eve and debated canon Lilith
>>564329
>For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Yep, and what am I taking away from this? That the covenant exists? The thing Jesus said had one true rule which was love thy neighbour? The commandment that sort of makes all the others pointless anyway?

>>564364
That the law still exists you dumb fuck and you're quite the retard for "not giving a shit about OT" when Jesus clearly does give a shit.

>>564364

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well"

Psalm 139:13

>>564375
Jesus retcons the fuck out of it, why would I give a shit about Jewish crap when Jesus tells me what's up? Read the fucking Torah if you love that garbage, it's literally the same thing
>>564382
Psalms is a nice book, but Jesus is the true word of God

>>564403
Jesus doesn't retcon anything, he merely affirms what's written in the OT and explicitly instructs you to keep following it.

>>564426
>Jesus doesn't retcon anything
>Old Testament
>Rape your enemies wives, salt their fields, kill their babies
>New Testament
>Turn the other cheek
Exact. Same. Thing. Fuck off to your temple Isaiah Goldstein

>>564463
>le Jesus is a hippie meme

Matthew 10:34

>>564472
>Reading shit literally
How to know when you spot a protestant, he's the sword cutting the lies not a super Batman Jewstomper you fucking moron

>>564489
No, "literally" would mean he'd hand you a literal, physical sword. He's saying he's gonna bring conflict and war.

>>564489
You forgot your fedora atheist faggot

>>564489
>allegoricalism

By your logic, you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

Take scripture literally unless it states otherwise, i.e the parables of Jesus.

The Bible defines itself, stop putting your own sinful interpretations on it.

>>564498
He's saying his revelation is going to fuck shit up
>>564505
Fuck off faggot, if I was fedora I'd deny God even existed, this meme has gone too far
>>564506
>If Jesus says sword he means a literal sword
>Figurative language is a lie
Fucking kill yourself, I bet you really think God physically fucked Mary and got her pregnant by that logic

>>564506

Matthew 10:34 is so vague no one has a clue what it means. You can make up dozens of explanations. Since the ones that onvolve Jesus telling you to kill people go against literally everything else he said though we can rule out that.

>>564519
>He's saying his revelation is going to fuck shit up

And it will be bloody.

>>564463
>kill their babies

Guess how I know you're an atheist?

>>564292
>god loves me
>god treats me like shit
Either you're wrong, or you're a blasphemer here buddy. Pick your poison.

>>564519
>Fucking kill yourself, I bet you really think God physically fucked Mary and got her pregnant by that logic

Of course I don't think that. A Roman soldier named Panthera had sex with her, but then God turned the child into God.

>>564529

I'm Orthodox.

>>564506
>By your logic, you can make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.
Isn't that pretty much the fouding belief of protestantism?

>>564529
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
And that's all fine and dandy but pretending Babies don't die in the Bible is fucking juvenile

>>564535

Jesus Christ. I can't believe some fedora is calling me a blasphemer.

>>564547

It doesn't say that in the Bible you fucking idiot. Atheists made that up because they are Communists that want to eact babies themselves.

>I eat babies

Stalin

>>564547
Exactly, and an actual Christian would know this is not a commandment, yet it often appears in atheist "critiques" posing as one.

>>564536
What's your opinion on the Infant Gospel? Personally I find it a very realistic and sympathetic book about a kid who has powers and doesn't know what the fuck he's doing

>>564543

No the founding belief od Protestantism is that God is God and the founding belief of Catholicism is that the Pope is God, even though he is really a demon, and that you have to pay the Pope/demon money to get into Heaven.

>>564553
>It doesn't say that in the Bible you fucking idiot
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea%2013:16&version=NIV
Yep, sure dosen't
>>564555
Look man, when Protestants literally value the OT over the New in church sermons I have to ask questions

>>564567
Get back to the point and stop dodging that shit. You think Hosea 13:16 is a commandment? You won't weasel out of this one, fedoralord.

>>564574
When the fuck did I say it was a commandment? I said Jesus Retconned the OT, that statement was never exclusive to the commandments. My only statement on those was Jesus cut to the heart of it and basically said if you love your neighbour you won't murder him, steal from him or covet his ass

>>564574

It's the Lord speaking, unless you are looking for some ridiculously pedantic argument about the meaning of the word commandment it is clear you are jibber-jabbering nonsense.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea+13&version=NIV

>>564589
No you retarded drug addict, you specifically implied God tells, or otherwise, COMMANDS them to kill babies, while it's pretty clear he's only saying what will happen to them if they dare disobeying his commandments.

Moreover, if you think NT God is any "different", then he's actually more "cruel", since eternal fucking punishment in hell is way heavier than being bashed against a rock.

>>564598
>if you play in traffic, you will die
>if you see someone play in traffic, you are obliged to go and kill him

You don't see the difference?

>>564616
>Hell is real
Hell is being without God shitface, all the fire and brimstone is poetic window dressing to the death of the soul. I'm sorry you can't read subtext or figurative language but I guess Protestantism does that to people

>>564635
>all the fire and brimstone is poetic window dressing
[citation needed] you liberal cuckold

>>564616
>>564631

I can't believe how much of a pedantic little fuccboi you are being, there is so much of this shit in the OT, it is unreal, which you would know if you had read it.

>40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Joshu 10:40

That one clear enough for you, fuccboi?

>>564646
>I love Hell, it fuels my white guilt complex
I'm sorry you literally can't read books mate

>>564562
Nope. The founding belief of Protestantism is to put words into God's mouth.

Historic Christianity in contrast has the belief that the original teachings be it in oral, preaching or written form has been handed down to the Church. The Church's duty is to guard this from threats.

>>564684
>just because something exists it means I have to like it

Specific quote. Now.

>>564687
If you can't fathom the symbolism in Revelations what the fuck am I meant to point you towards?

>>564562
>Protestant actually believe this

The highest positions a Pope claims is Vicar of Christ, which is essentially claiming to be God's head servant.

>>564589
>>564616
Guys, guys.

Jesus did say he upheld the Law but the laws he preached openly contradict parts of the OT.

However, the ancient Hebrews believed the Law was laid down at the beginning and man came to discover it. New interpretations of the written law are OK, because the Law is discovered by man not invented, so the written law at any given time may not be 100% accurate. Rabbinical tradition actually puts a lot of emphasis on reflection and discussion of holy texts.

Jesus, being closer to God than any of the OT prophets, would be closer to the Law. As in, the real Law.

Scripture isn't meant to be perfect because it isn't said to be a direct message from God, like Muslims believe the Quran to be.

Rather, the Bible is several messages by different men, who were divinely inspired.

These would be closer to God, and to the real Law (absolute morality), than the laws of some random king or lawmaker.

I've been working on this for some time. What do you guys think?

>>564699
So you admit you have nothing to back your MUH SYMBOLIC HELL shit with? Thought as much.

>>564701
>Vicar of Christ
Guess what Antichrist means?

Popes are literally antichrists.

>>564717
Yeah man, also God literally fucked Mary, the universe was literally made in 7 days and God literally killed Jobs family to win a bet with Satan.
Fucking top yourself

>>564728
1. No
2. Yes
3. No

>>564730
Top yourself

>>564728
Yes
No
Yes

>top yourself

Is that even English?

ITT Calvinists and Protestkeks showing how stupid they are

ITT Catholics going to hell for their blasphemy

>>564292
>God created you so he can do whatever he wants with you
>assuming to know God's impetus

>>563581
They're predetermined to formulate such a code. U dumb m8?