>>558736 Usually those are made by british folks. They have two options concerning the language: Have all actors speak a dead language and subtitle the movie, or; Speak normally and just tell the story.
>>558736 Shakespeare's Julius Caesar will never be forgotten as the foundation of the Anglo tradition of art on Roman themes. It will never be separated. Do you expect them to speak in Latin? We don't even know how to speak it anymore.
>>559049 in what timeframe? Pre-Umayyad Spain, when the Moors opened a door between their Spanish and Malian conquests, probably almost zero sub-saharans in Europe. From that point onward there were only negligible amounts and only in Moorish owned lands and nearby lands. They were an incredible rarity.
>a bunch of slovenly men fuck about >a badass power lesbian female warrior arrives >AHAHAHA A WOMAN SHE THINKS SHE CAN FIGHT LOOK AT HER HAHAHAHA >she kicks their ass, humiliating them and proving female supremacy
Literally every history-related fiction since Xena
>>559310 I don't think I phrased it that well. I don't mean when did Roman soldiers switch over to lorica segmentata, I meant when did that become the popular image for them? Like I said, older films seem have them all in leather armour and red capes - when did the popular image of Roman soldiers switch over to segmentata.
>>559272 That's true, and the woman is always an archer (?) which is dumb because women have weaker arms and so wouldn't be able to bend the bow nearly as much as a man meaning the force of her arrow and the distance it could travel would be much less.
>>558937 >>559039 >massive population decline >roman empire which produced 10000s of tons of lead, copper and iron a year and engaged in huge construction projects evaporates and Charlemagne's chuches are just brick boxes with numerous tiny arches >gap in historical records, things still happened even if they weren't written down but such a large number of people suddenly abandoning literacy to such an extent from Attila until Charlemagne is evidence The idea there was no dark age in northern europe is the meme.
>>559398 There certainly was, in the early middle ages like you said, until Charlemagne. The thing is these films usually portray high medieval period and depict it like something straight out of Mad Max.
>>559398 >>559403 The problem is that the average person can't differentiate between 400-750 AD and 1050-1400 AD, and just lump it all together under "medieval", which is seen as either a shitty Dark Age or a glorious Gothic civilization. It's all seen as one thing, instead of the reality that there was both a Dark Age after the fall of Rome and an amazing civilization after the 11th century.
>>559398 No one denies that things weren't quite as good as when the Romans were around, due to the obvious chaos of a collapsing Empire. The common myth that needs to end is of the European Dark Ages is that Religious Leaders suppressed science and technology, resulting in centuries of stagnation until the virtuous Enlightenment came about and DaVinci and Descartes and Richard Dawkins finally put the ebil Church in its place.
>>561242 Well, judging by Street grafity, some mosy certainly did, soldiers often wrote and read latin and a lot of richer city folk did, I'm not saying all plebs and slave knew fluent Latin. But it wasn't something reserved for kings and generals
I'm with you. Additionally, I feel that literature set in foreign countries should have all the dialogue in the native language. The prose can be in English of course. It's a simple matter to include translations for everything the characters say.
>>561022 Oddly enough the first Rome: Total War game actually did give the Romans American accents, and it's a British-made game. Haven't played the second one so I don't know if it continues the trend.
I noticed that in The Eagle, they made the Romans explicitly American with noticeable accents. Initially thought they were going for the imperialist trope, but the rest of the film is about how the Britons are barbarians and savages and the Roman hero is super cool awesome.
>>559377 It depends on how heavy the bow is and the draw weight though. Some are lighter and/ or more easily pulled than others. though if the arrows she is using are thick and pierce outer garments well enough, I guess you have a point.
>>566418 I didn't say they had to speak Italian with an accent(who the fuck would even know besides Italians?). They should speak English with whatever accent specific to the ethnicity they are or where the setting is( in this case either Italian or Spanish)
>>566414 >>566408 I don't think it's a good idea to not translate the entire novel. That's just dumb. Leave a few words I guess, in terms of expressions that can't be easily translated sensibly or non awkwardly in dialogue. But otherwise, why would you not. That's silly. The problem is only really with visual media.
I was being what I thought was obviously satirical, to point out the stupidity of your desire to have actors speak english with a foreign accent. If they're already speaking English, what's the point of having them put on an accent? What would it add? You've already translated it.
It's not so much that the church was surpressing anything, it's that the sheer level of piety in mainstream intellectual life diverted capable people into unrewarding theological dead ends. Most of the great minds between 800 and 1400 AD were focussed on questions of theology that were ultimately meaningless, like discusssing 40k lore. If you disagree, what scientific discoveries in particular can you point to as being made in Europe in this period?
>>566727 >diverted capable people into unrewarding theological dead ends Holy shit you're a retard. These "capable people" only had access to knowledge and texts because of these "theological dead ends."
>>566713 But this isn't just in British productions of Shows this happens. Also the situation you paralleled with what I was saying is way higher on the scale of inconvenience if not out right a ridiculous waste of energy. What I mentioned is a pretty minor change.Also why not look for some good Italian actors or the like too(this is for non roman, and non British productions obviously) if they can look look for British ones. They do this specifically with characters in Asian settings so why not anything else?
>>566971 I mean...that's not that bad considering if we're talking about nobles (WHO ARE WELL EDUCATED) particularly in, but not limited to, the late medieval period. It's not far fetched for the characters to bilingual. Unless we're talking about peasants, then I got nothing.
>>567050 Well, yes that too but if the show/ movie is made by Britain or America you know who's language iss going to be the default out of convenience especially for the general audience. >>567052 Why should English noblemen in England(which anon specified) speak English with a french accent? As for Rihcard, my first point kind of stands and England LOVES to claim him so yeah there's that. Tbh though, there hasn't been that many Richard the Lion heart Movies to make that comparison.
Off the top of my head the instances of unabashed black africans in Europe I can think of are:
-4th century Constantine Arch or Column depicting Blemmye auxiliaries (From the Sudan region south of Egypt, east of the nile along the red sea)
-I have a reference in a wargaming book to 1184 King William II of Sicily's bodyguard included of a large number of "Moslem Negro slaves, with a captain of that race...sumptuously dressed and provided with agile horses". The source cited is an Ibn Jubair.
In the Muslim world they are far more prevalent but still a minority and entirely associated in a slave or military-slave context. The Tulunid dynasty of Egypt made use of some tens of thousands of black slaves possibly double the number of berbers or turks they used, the Fatimids relied increasingly on black slave infantry, the Berbers always had some novel corps of black slave warriors, the Andalusians had more sparse numbers of them but they were around, the Abbasids made enough use of black slaves in their plantations of southern Iraq they had a full blown insurrection in the famous "Zanji Rebellion".
This is a sketch of a 13th century Spanish manuscript showing a bunch of Moors - the European looking fellows are Andalusians, the Turbaned guys are Berbers, the kinky haired guy with the big nose is a black african. And that is usually what happens - you see a black cavalryman, a black slinger or black camp followers/servants but exceptionally rarely. Not like the popular notion of the moors being black, or even half of them being black, or even a quarter. 1/10th feels too generous even.
>>567334 This is true though, and it is why america won the revolution. The americans fought from cover and used camo while the british stood around like idiots while dieing of heat exhaustion in they're fancy red dresses
>>567037 Although, I read a story a while back about some Roman-era skeletons found in a grave, in southern England. They did tests on 'em, and few were Italian. Some were native Brits, but there were also a lot of people from North Africa, and what is today Syria/Jordan and Serbia. London in its first years was probably mostly a mish-mash of Roman colonials.
>>566375 With the exception of a couple of truly exceptional Asian martial arts movies, shows/movies with subtitles are rarely successful except as artsy award bait.
Since most movies are made by American studios, having the characters speak in British accents signals to the audience that they are foreign without the awkwardness of trying to write a script in a foreign language with subtitles.
>>569765 Yeknow, Inglorious Basterd, the movie I firstly recall when thinking of Nazis and cinema, does a pretty darn good job at humanizing zie Germans. Max and the rest of the gang in the pub scene. And the Officer who gets his head clubbed in. Even colonial Hanz Lander
>being too autistic to realize that there is only a handful of actors cut out to fit any given specific character and that it would take an enormous amount of time to properly learn an accent let alone a language, to a finite local and historical tee
>>569851 The are good actors for people of other European ethnicity besides BRITISH that could take and fit those parts. That is my point. They do this with Asia set films like The Last Samurai without all (or even most) of the dialogue having to be in subtitles. The even do this with Vikings. It doesn't even have to go straight to subtitles at all honestly( though it did a few times in vikings for contrast).
>>559282 >>559299 This. Mexico is a huge country and has a ridiculous number of small mini-climates because of altitude variation. Some cities are highly developed. >pic related: The place i took this picture in looks more like an african savanna
>>568207 I suppose the first time someone used this meme, and was being serious not joking, they were simply expressing annoyance at the lack of musical diversity. Vietnam movies almost all feature a bit of protest music from that era.
Most of these sorts of 'complaints' are total exaggerations meant simply to bait autistic people (into asking for examples or correcting the song title), or to get other people replying to get reaction images.
Though some movies have bucked this trend. If you guys haven't seen The Eagle, you really should. English is abstracted as Latin but they used American actors for Latin native-speakers and British actors for the Romano-British. The seens where they head up into pict country are in a legit p-celtic language. It's basically a Roman Apocalypse Now. The further north they get from Hadrian's Wall, the crazier shit gets.
>>568207 Because every single piece of Vietnam media has it. Its as if Fortunate Son, Flight of the Valkryries, and Paint It Black were the only songs in existence in the 60s. We get it, we know what years Vietnam took place in.
>>566442 >Why are medieval movies and stuff always in north europe, anyway?
Because northern Europeans are the people that hold the most power and they'll show off their history before they show off anyone else's. I'm extremely bored with medieval northern Europe and I think it's extremely overrates
>>567157 The point is in movies English noblemen speak English without accent while French noblemen speak English with a French accent. While in reality they would have just spoken French to each other, which was the native language of both sides, and neither of them would have a foreign accent. There is literally no reason to portray English and French noblemen differently, either give them both French accents or neither (I'd tend towards neither since in real life they were speaking their own language and thus didn't sound like retards).
>>558736 They shouldn't be speaking English at all, but it's entertainment. What do you want? the whole cast to speak in forced faked Italian accents? Retarded. Also, British accents are the default English accent because they spawned the language and way more pleasant than American ones.
>>568066 m8 stop this meme, the remains of Roman auxiliaries found in Britain were mostly Gauls, they did find a few distant foreigners, mostly peoples from around the black sea(thought to be from modern day Ukraine) and only a single cohort of people that came from Syria. It really didn't make much sense to have colonists or auxiliaries stationed in Britannia from such far places. Why there was even a cohort composed of some Syrians is still confusing the fuck out of people.
>>576543 But there was such a small percentile of Syrian auxiliaries in Britannia, it wasn't for fear of those Syrians being too close to Rome and richer provinces and betraying the empire either. Most likely they were esteemed veterans, even then it's still confusing why Syrian auxiliaries would be stationed in Britannia at that time. Even the 'Ukrainians' is quite weird. The modus operandi of Roman stationment would usually place Gauls, or other Germanics in Britannia due to proximity and familiarity.
>>559421 I think that's a major issue with poltards and others who think X age was brilliant They only consider the top 1% who had the time and education to write and automatically assume that since they can read and write they would have been in the same level as that top percent In a way that's what happened in the dark ages - you had greater literacy but it was a single class the priests They had issues anyway as dark age Christianity was no way like even medieval Christianity - cf French making up the idea they were descended from Jesus They read the Roman writers and assumed things were better then because those writers were insulated from the harsher realities of life Also dark age is shit concept as Islam was advancing learning in many ways - rejecting the Greek pure hypothesis and actually experimenting and observing So the monks felt Europe was backwards and dark compared to that
>>566959 Villagers in general have relatively nice teeth, even way back, while City dwellers had noticeably worse teeth. City dwellers lives longer than villagers, so it is believed to be due to the diets.
>>575766 >If you guys haven't seen The Eagle, you really should The Eagle was actually pretty boring and the whole accent thing was weird. They would have done much better using upper class English accents and lower class English accents.
The reason American TV uses British accents for historical drama is because they usually take place in Europe so they use what Americans consider to be the 'European' accent for English.
Also, lets face it, British English just sounds better.
Bullshit, when will this meme end. Most of former Western Rome was still prosperous, with urban civilization persisting after the fall of the Empire, it's only later with Islamic conquests cutting off access to gold and trade that the Dark Ages set in.
>>579144 I actually pointed it out as an example of how to do it right. It gets the idea across that these people are from two different cultures, one of which imposed itself upon the other, and as such there is a difference in how they speak.
>>579186 maybe it was just because The Eagle was a bad movie, but I didn't think it worked. Don't get me wrong, I get what they were trying to do and can see why it seemed like a good idea on paper. But the American accents in the historical setting just felt weird.
>>579250 >token black and strong female characters out of nowhere because muh empowering I was starting to think I was the only one who'd noticed this. Not just that there are token blacks and strong female characters everywhere, but that the obsession with ideology really is starting to feel like the old Soviet films that tried to make EVERYTHING about class struggle.
>>579751 outing myself as a fucking neckbeard, but one good example of a show with strong women who aren't just strong because womyn power is Battlestar Galactica. i wish more films took that track, where they don't make a big fucking deal out of it, they just show competent but flawed women alongside competent but flawed men.
for /his/ related productions, Deadwood has a balanced depiction of power and gender without making a political statement out of it.
>>579805 makes you realise that the Galactica reboot is over a decade old at this point. If it was made today you wouldn't just have President Laura Roslin, you'd have Strong Female President Laura Roslin. Starbuck wouldn't be the best pilot, she's be the best female pilot, and Six would never shut up about how she was the one who got the keys to the colonial defence system while all the male cylons were being useless.
>>576471 No, not if they didn't have too but they sure as hell didn't speak English with British accents cause well, they're FRENCH! You're moving the goal post, btw. There is obviously an idiotic and ridiculous bias to use British accents and British people in general to represent all of Europe. This stands even when the production isn't British.
>>576485 It depends on the time period though. French wasn't always the native language for every nobleman. True, they probably should just speak french but the problem is with English speaking audiences not wanting to read subtitles. I guess the best thing at that point would just make everyone speak English with no accent (besides English).
>>566191 The answer to his question was given above. However, what you said (nevermind the fact that it does not answer his question) is wrong.
The first remains of segmentata we know of date back to the Battle of Teutoborg (9AD). More generally speaking, it became widespread around 40 AD (see the Corbridge discoveries) and went through some alterations in the following decades. However, it never became a totally predominant type of armor, as hamata and squamata were more efficient (although more pricey). Then, from the late 2nd century onwards, the "classic" gear strated to fall into disuse, hamata and heavier helmets becoming the norm, prefiguring early middle ages armor.
>>558937 >>559039 Believing that the whole middle ages were a dark age is retarded. However, there was a real dark age in western Europe before the carolingian renaissance.
Just quoting Gregory of Tours' Historia Francorum:
>With liberal culture on the wane, or rather perishing in the Gallic cities there were many deeds being done both good and evil: the heathen were raging fiercely; kings were growing more cruel; the church. attacked by heretics, was defended by Catholics [...]. No grammarian skilled in the dialectic art could be found to describe these matters either in prose or verse; and many were lamenting and saying: "Woe to our day, since the pursuit of letters has perished from among us and no one can be found among the people who can set forth the deeds of the present on the written page." [...] I [have undertaken] to commemorate the past, order that it may come to the knowledge of the future[...] although my speech is rude, I have been unable to be silent as to the struggles between the wicked and the upright; and I have been especially encouraged because, to my surprise, it has often been said by men of our day, that few understand the learned words of the rhetorician
>>566395 >almost always in port cities in the southern parts of Europe. lol what was Flanders Also people did traveled arround long distances since the roman era, its just that most of Europe got all reclusive and shit for centuries because Mediterranean Sea was no longer under their control and coastal raids were common, so there was no more trading.
>>581429 What other accent would they use? They spoke French without accent in real life, yes? So why would they suddenly speak with an accent making them sound like complete retards when it's translated into English?
If you want accuracy have it in subtitled French. Historical people speaking their own language with an accent is not realistic at all.
>>559377 What weapon would a woman preferably use, though? I agree that there is an overrepresentation of female archers, but what historical, non-gundpowder weapon doesn't get better with more strength?
I'm only coming up with crossbow, so unless you want every woman to use that...
>>583605 crossbows are slow, and can actually use quite a bit of force to re-set the bowstring after being shot.
Spears are pretty easy and efficient weapons, quite underrated IMO. They don't require as much training as effective sword-use does, and they keep cunts from getting to close to you, and if the haft is sturdy enough aren't as easily chopped off like in the movies. If you've got enough spear-m8s around you, their protective effect increases. A whack or thrust from a heavy spear will ruin your day, and even short jabbing spears will make you think twice. Of course, heavy armor can make them moot... but even a heavily armoured knight isn't just going to wade into a sea of spikes.
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