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Pre-Indo European Civilizations
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You are currently reading a thread in /his/ - History & Humanities

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There is evidence that European civilization may have been the first and most advanced at its time, more advanced than Sumeria

I'm sure you know most European (and also a good deal of Asian) civilizations come from a single culture, right? The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a people who lived (probably) on the steppes north of Caucasus (hence why we're called "caucasians") and, about five thousand years ago, spread into Anatolia and Eastern Europe; the Greeks and Romans, the Celtic, Germanic and Slavic tribes, all of those were just different migration waves, later developing into their own, unique cultures. Even the Proto-Indo-European language has been reconstructed, to a level of refinement that more recent, concrete evidence has come to corroborate the hypotheses (such as the laryngeal theory, proved true by Hittite studies

Evidently, there were people living in Europe before those guys came in. Perhaps the most prominent of those is the Minoan civilization of Crete, which predated (and actually highly infuenced) the oldest Greek settlements. Later, non-Indo-European cultures of the Aegean, such as the Etruscans, seem to be related to Minoans; but material evidence is so scarce (mainly due to Greek/Roman expansionism) that it's very hard to state anything conclusive.

However, the "lost civilization" I think you'll find more interesting is the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture of modern-day Moldova. Those guys were a very complex society, with their very distinct forms of art, architecture and pottery; they even had a system of symbols (refer to pic), used throughout millenia, though most researchers classify them as "proto-writing".

The two most intriguing points, though, are: one, they were building absurdly large settlements for their time (while the estimated population of Uruk in Sumeria was five thousand people around 4000 BC, the CP settlement of Dobrovody was twice that size); and two, (cont).
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>>551582
(cont), they had a most peculiar habit of deliberately setting those same settlements on fire every few decades. Although theories abound, no one quite knows WHY they did that.

Needless to say, they were eventually washed away by some Indo-European tribe, and all immaterial aspects of their culture are most likely lost to History.

So, what are /his/ thoughts on that? That Europe developed advanced civilizations independently of Mesopotamia and were somehow destroyed with all traces and most of its evidence vanishing
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>>551592
>So, what are /his/ thoughts on that? That Europe developed advanced civilizations independently of Mesopotamia and were somehow destroyed with all traces and most of its evidence vanishing

We wuz kings, snownigger edition. Seriously, if you can't prove it and have no evidence, how can you know? Proto-writing isn't writing, and I have a strange feeling your society isn't accepted by any mainstream archaeologists.
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>>551852
Not him but is accepted, it was a rather advanced culture for its time, why the fuck are you so mad?
He just stated facts.

This board sometimes is as stupid as pol but in the opposite way.
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>>551870
*but it is accepted
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>>551852
the may have surpassed Sumerian cities in size but agriculture started on the flood plains of the Tigris and Euphrates not the Danube
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>>551582
>I'm sure you know most European (and also a good deal of Asian) civilizations come from a single culture, right? The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a people who lived (probably) on the steppes north of Caucasus (hence why we're called "caucasians")
The term "caucasian" doesn't have anything to do with the Kurgan hypothesis. It was coined by Johann Friedrich Blumenbach who believed the "white" race originated in the Caucasus mountains.
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I just find it incredibly sad but interesting at the same time how little we know about the period before written records; if I remember reading correctly, Homo Sapiens lived in Europe 40 thousand years ago - just think how many generations of men lived and died here, leaving behind so much history, culture, language,...
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>>551886
Agriculture started more than 5,000 priore to those settlements, tard.
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>>551907
>I doubt jungle monkeys in their parasite invested habitats could even invent the wheel before moving and evolving into something else

did europeans invent the wheel or did they get it from another group?
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>>551915
Yeah, it's quite strange to think that our current records encompass such a tiny sliver of human history.
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>>551592
>So, what are /his/ thoughts on that?

Sounds like bullshit
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>>551936
>Yeah I will not even bother to google it or do some research and call it bullshit just because

Honestly kill yourself
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>>551958
give me a link
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>>551922
Here's your daily dose of Sloveneposting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubljana_Marshes_Wheel
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>>551975
doesnt really answer the question t b h.

though this kinda does but at the same time doesnt
>The wooden wheel belonged to a prehistoric two-wheel cart – a pushcart. Similar wheels have been found in the hilly regions of Switzerland and southwest Germany, but the Ljubljana Marshes one is bigger and older.
>It shows that wooden wheels appeared almost simultaneously in Mesopotamia and Europe.[1]
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>>551986
Here's some more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel.

There really is no way of knowing. The chance of an artifact surviving for thousands of years is really low and then someone has to find it. And even then, the picture can never be complete enough for the whole story to be revealed.
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>>551907
Totally incorrect. Civilization as we know it started in the Near East. It then spread westward via Greece and Rome. Europeans were little more than barbarians in the time of Sumeria. No archaeologists argue against the Near East, only dumbasses on the internet.

Also, Europe is extremely homogeneous. There is no genetic group that has all of the achievements. If there was, it wouldn't be "white" people, anyhow. We have had very few blonde haired and blue eyed inventors, scientists, etc. of note. Most of them look like complete mixes, with a hefty dose of Mediterranean phenotypes.
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>>552350
Europe is extremely heterogeneous.*

Sorry
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reeks of Eurocentrism ITT
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>>552350
>Europe is extremely geenetically heterogeneous.*


please, fuck off.
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>>552358
>Mentioning ancient European cultures i Eurocentrism
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>>552396
What is this? Haplogroups? Even if it isn't, it really doesn't disprove my point. Look at how disparate countries group together reasonably close on the top right.
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>>552412
It's not haplogroup you retard, it's a PCA that shows genetics distance between ethnic groups all over the world.
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>>552412
It's not haplogroup , it's a PCA that shows genetic distance between ethnic groups all over the world.
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>>551958
the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. unless you can provide some evidence on snownigger version of "we wuz kings" theory i'll just have to assume it's complete bullshit
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>>552423
>>552425
Why doesn't it have units or even say what it is on the axis?

it just says "dimension 1 and 2"
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>>552423
>>552425
It wasn't marked. If you are going to post something you should clarify.

Anyhow, it is comparing Africans, Asians, and Europeans/Middle Easterners. It's no surprise they are isolated. You can tell they are dissimilar from phenotypes alone. Europe, as we know it, is an amalgamation of Mediterranean and European hunter gatherer genes. All of the cultural hubs have been multiethnic going back to the Near East and Greece. Race is not stable. It is well known that it behaves in a manner similar to linguistic interaction.
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>>551582
So you literally copied a thread from /x/.

>>17209869

Congratulations.
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>>551918
Oh right, I'm a tard because I said agriculture started on the Tigris and Euphrates when really it started on a tributary to the Tigris.

http://www.archeolog-home.com/pages/content/chogha-golan-iran-no-single-origin-for-agriculture-in-the-fertile-crescent.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan

You're a piece of shit, I bet when you have children and one of them accidentally spills milk or make some other human error you'll smack them. People like you ought to have your balls cut off to help calm you down.
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>>552440
I'm not OP but here it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

I don't see how mentioning the existence of a culture which is known and accepted by historians is equal to claim "WE WUZ KINGZ"
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>>552451
No, you're a retard for saying the Sumerians invented Agriculture while Sumerians didn't even exist in 10000 bc.
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>>552449
Fucking hell I mean

>>>/x/17209869
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>>552469
He probably posted it here and there, faggot.

>>552440
>muh snowniggers!!!1!!
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>>552498
I doubt it. The OP on /x/ sourced most of his information, and the debate was (surprisingly) much more decent than it's been here.
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>>551992
Neat. I've always found Vinča really compelling
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>>552498
>He probably posted it here and there, faggot.

If he knew it was historically supported, he wouldn't post it there, now would he? That's the place for unsubstantiated garbage—where this belongs, from the sounds of it.
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>>552533
I bet you believe we were all West African Negros many moons ago.
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>>552399
That's right you Nazi racist fuck, how dare you show an interest in anything that paints Europe in a positive light?! Fucking racist.
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>>551592
But these are all thousands of years after agriculture was developed in the middle east, pretty sure these cultures are just the first to experience the diffusion of agriculture into Europe.

>The roots of Cucuteni-Trypillian culture can be found in the Starčevo-Körös-Criș and Vinča cultures of the 6th to 5th millennia,[6] with additional influence from the Bug-Dniester culture (6500-5000 BC).[20] During the early period of its existence (in the 5th millennium BC), the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was also influenced by the Linear Pottery culture from the north, and by the Boian-Giulesti culture from the south.[6] Through colonization and acculturation from these other cultures, the formative Pre-Cucuteni/Trypillia A culture was established.

Also the nearby (Turkey) site of Çatalhöyük was older 7500-5700bc

>The population of the eastern mound has been estimated to be, at maximum, 10,000 people, but the population likely varied over the community’s history. An average population of between 5,000 to 7,000 is a reasonable estimate.
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>>552563
Not to mention these early European cultures were farming domesticated species from the middle east.
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>>552568
And?
OP never claimed the opposite
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>>552533
The funny part is that all I've seen here are silly quarrels about what civilization is "better".
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>>552568
That's probably what happened: the Near East already had farming by that point. They would be the cultural center of the world for millenniums.
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>>552581
There was no civilization in Europe. There is nothing to compare.
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>>552580
>That Europe developed advanced civilizations independently of Mesopotamia

I read this more as, independently of the Middle East.
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>>552588
So we are gonna ignore the existence of the Cucuteni culture because you can't accept facts?


>>552590
He never said that
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>>552607
>He never said that

Look at the end of the second post, which was a (cont) from the OP.
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>>552607
>So we are gonna ignore the existence of the Cucuteni culture because you can't accept facts?

It wasn't a civilization. Civilization is a big word. It was more like a leak of Near Eastern ingenuity. He's trying to paint this society as superior to Mesopotamia. There isn't an archaeologist alive who would agree with that.
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>>552619
He has a point. I don't know why it's outrageous to claim so. This whole civilization thing has its earliest roots in Anatolia.
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Oh jeez.

OP here, from the first thread on /x/. I definitely DIDN'T post this one. Also, I never uttered the following statements:

>There is evidence that European civilization may have been the first and most advanced at its time, more advanced than Sumeria

and

> That Europe developed advanced civilizations independently of Mesopotamia and were somehow destroyed with all traces and most of its evidence vanishing

The rest of it was copied literally from what I posted. The thread was never about how "advanced" those people were, but whatever. Have fun.

Also, here are some links the dude didn't feel like including:

http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/anthro/faculty/bankoff/burning_color.pdf

http://isaw.nyu.edu/exhibitions/oldeurope/introduction.html

http://www.chronikajournal.com/resources/Harper.pdf

http://www.livescience.com/28954-ancient-europeans-mysteriously-vanished.html
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>>552651
>This whole civilization thing has its earliest roots in Anatolia.

Source? I thought it was more where the rivers and the Persian Gulf converge. Isn't Ur considered the first known agricultural society?
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>>552658

Thanks anon, those links are interesting.
The developed independently triggers me.
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Fuck this senseless arguing, I just wanna know more about these guys and how they were crafting gold and copper in the 4500s BC.
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>>552668
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

>The Fertile Crescent of Western Asia, Egypt and the Indus Valley were sites of the earliest planned sowing and harvesting of crops which had previously been gathered in the wild.

Let me answer my own question: all the early agricultural societies were on major river basins.
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>>552668
> Isn't Ur considered the first known agricultural society

Try the Natufian culture

12,500 B.C. — 9,500 B.C.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture
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>>552681
It says some evidence. Most of their diet consisted of wild cereals. I don't think that counts as an agricultural society.

>>552677
What's this from? What excavation was this?
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>>552677
Are there any good resources for images of pre-historical grave finds?

Their burials interest me, but I'd prefer images with text rathere than solely text.
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>>552690
Yea thats the point though, it would be a transition to agriculture, and this culture seems to be the earliest example of transition from hunter gatherers to agriculture.
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>>552696
It happened completely independently in the Americas and Papua new guinea much later.
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>>552677
That amazing desu
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>>552702
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>>552399
not him but fuck off, if some african american made a thread like this claiming that some there was some ancient african civilization that developed independently and was more advanced than Sumer you'd be screaming about afrocentrism and trying to pick apart every little claim
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>>552691
>>552690

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_Necropolis

Oldest gold treasure in the world.They were getting filthy rich mining salt and built some of the first stone fortresses.
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>>552723
It was more or less as advanced as Sumer at the time (4500 bc) since Sumerians were not all that advanced back then.
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>>552677
Those teeth look amazing for that time period.
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>ctrl-f "dogger"
>"Ys"
>"hyperborea"
>nothing

Do you even ancient arrryans?

But seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if Ys was actually part of Doggerland that managed to stay above land before getting sunk in an earthquake or something.
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>>551582
>Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of. And unto this, Conan, destined to wear the jeweled crown of Aquilonia upon a troubled brow. It is I, his chronicler, who alone can tell thee of his saga. Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!

BUM BUM BUMBUM BUMBUM BUMBUM
bwaaaaah
BWAAAAAAH
BWAAAAAAAH
BWAAAAAH BWAAAH BUH BUH BWAAH
BUH BWAAAH
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>>552740
This is /x/

Or at best retarded speculation about hunter gatherer cultures which existed in areas later inundated at the end end of the ice age.
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>>552350
>>552440
>>552533
>>552554
>>552557
>>552588
>>552723
Fucking /pol/ go home

Another good thread ruined by these faggots.
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>>552723
If they provided archaeological evidence that has been thoroughly verified, then no we wouldn't.
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>>552677
Is there any explanation for the golden penis cap thing?
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>>552677
Please tell me that's not a gold penis cap.
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>>552757
Go away.
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>>552768
sheath
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>>552772
Oh thank God I was worried there for a second.
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>>552677
Did they bury him naked or did his clothes rot away?
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>>552725
This is still very close to the crossroads of the Near East. There is absolutely no evidence these people were "white" in the way you are thinking. Blonde hair and blue eyes were not considered a good thing in Mesopotamia—or Rome for that matter. It was the sign of the barbarian to them. They basically saw whites as you see Mexicans.
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>>552847
No one said they were "whites"
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>>552847
The anon you're replying to never claimed that they were white. Even so, you're still wrong. Roman aristocracy frequently bleached their hair blond – it is true that classical descriptions of peoples like the Thracians and Gauls made mention of fair or ruddy hair, but that's hardly equating the trait to barbarism. Sumerian statues have been found depicting priests with eyes of lapis lazuli, so the statement that blue eyes in ancient Mesopotamia were categorically viewed as bad is clearly false.

Considering that the oldest individual with demonstrably blue eyes was dated to 5000 BC in Spain (some distance from the presumed Black Sea locus of the trait), I would be rather surprised if there were not blue-eyed individuals living in such a Black Sea settlement some 500 years later.

Of course, what they looked like doesn't fucking matter, and you know that. Stop trying to pointlessly stir shit up.

>They basically saw whites as you see Mexicans.
Nice strawman, asshole.

>>552730
>I misread this chain of comments and thought it was referring to the Varna. My bad. A bit hypocritical on my part, considering my response to the above anon. Have the unrelated musings anyway.

Sumer as such didn't even exist during this time. The parallel period in Mesopotamia would be the Ubaid, and they wouldn't enter into their urbanizing period until 4500, so roughly contemporaneous with the Varna site.

I haven't been able to find any information on the actual agricultural practices of the Varna culture, but it was a variant of Gumelnita-Karanovo, which succeeded the Starcevo culture. Considering that it was the successor to a joint hunter/gather-agricultural society, it's only reasonable to assume they were at least partial agriculturalists. I'd wager that the Ubaid were a great deal ahead of them, though, having recently developed a system of mass irrigation which would fuel the rise of the later city-states.
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