Aerial warfare and WWII

>>547271

What's your thesis?


And please, the C-47 was the best plane.

>>547336
Aerial warfare in the Ardennes Offensive

The C-47 had its uses but Im still a P-51D fan. Growing up on Chuck Yeagers Air Combat simulator did it for me. Even got his autograph too!

>>547336
C-47? You mean P-47?

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>>547336
You misspelled P-47 lad.

>>547412

But, surely the most notable factor of airpower in the Ardennes offensive was its absence which enabled the offensive to take place at all. What exactly are you arguing?

>>547422
>>547435


No, I mean the Douglas C-47. The cargo plane. Logistics wins wars, and the Skytrain/Dakota was the best there was in WW2 at that role, combining a hell of a long range with a damn good carrying capacity.

They're still being used today. 2016. Can't say that about prop fighters, no matter how glamorous they might be.

>>547474
Thats a general misconception. All my research has shown that this was not the case. In many instances they were flying at average levels or slightly below average but that they were never absence from the air!

>Combined Arms research library documents reported that "During the entire Ardennes Eifel campaign reconnaissance missions were flown whenever weather permitted...During the period of 17-27 December 1944 over 2000 missions were flown on visual and photographic reconnaissance alone" - CARL 184

CARL again
> "Even on those days when over 1,000 sorties were flown it was not without great effort against cloud , fog, and snow that the aircraft were put into the air."

>>547500

And when you compare those numbers to say, September 17-27th 1944? How many recon missions were flown in the autumn?

>>547520
>>547500


Also, how many ground support or operational interdiction sorties were flown in Ardennes compared to say, the Cobra breakout or something else that would be on the Western Front in better weather?

>>547520
>>547525
CARL again with dates between 17 Dec and 27 December

> Patrols (both offensive and defensive)
>Total: 4622 total sorties
>Recon (both photo and visual)
>Total: 1907 total sorties

A large majority of the missions were flown in September- November 1944. It was because of the Offensive that the numbers were forced to keep constant against the weathers best efforts. Like i said, Very little changed in their flying despite the weather because the Germans forced them to react.

Dont have the Cobra numbers on hand but I do have a few others. Give me time to find them..

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>>547500
>Thats a general misconception. All my research has shown that this was not the case. In many instances they were flying at average levels or slightly below average but that they were never absence from the air!

Are you differentiating between recon, artillery spotters, and direct ground support?

I can't count how many personal quotes for memoirs I've read (American and German) that make a point to note the latter was indeed largely absent until December 23rd.

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>>547500
>Combined Arms research library documents

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll8/id/4157

>the second period covers the 19th to the 22nd inclusive when for four days fog closed over bases and the battle area and precluded almost all air operations;

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>>548193

>On the 20th, the weather was so bad that a total of only 29 sorties were flown by all the Allied Air Forces. Of these, only 9 were in the tactical area.

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>>547336
Thats not the Flying Fortress/Stratofortress.

>>548193
>>548257
Your still proving OP's point: He's arguing that air power was still there in the Ardennes.

>notable factor of airpower in the Ardennes offensive was its absence
>was its absence
>absence

OP provided facts that the aircraft were in fact still flying.

Both of those prove that aircraft were still flying. It even says so.
>almost all air operations
>only 9 were in the tactical area
These show that aircraft were still flying.

>>548016
Ive read a few too, but the air war over the Ardennes is largely unknown compared to the ground war.

>>548584

I don't think anyone meant "no airpower" to be literally all planes were grounded.

Rather, it's the same way that the weather ended the Battle of Britain, or the stuff in the winters in 1941-42 and 42-43 in Russia.

Yeah, you got planes flying, but too few, and too sporadically to make a meaningful impact.

>>548016
>direct ground support
>actually hitting its targets
>WW2

>>548596
Instead of thinking about it in terms of no air cover at all, its better to think of it as a desperate time that the ground forces are unsure whether or not they'll have air support or not

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>>548584
>He's arguing that air power was still there in the Ardennes.

I'm just providing the original source material and pointing out that the four day stretch of 19-22 Dec. saw a marked decline that "slightly below average" is a poor descriptor for.

And of course there was no complete absence of air power, what was absent was that air power's combat effectiveness.

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>>548584
>Ive read a few too, but the air war over the Ardennes is largely unknown compared to the ground war.

The same could be said of the artillery stand on Elsenborn Ridge, the only part of the American line not to give ground.

>>548607

The fighter bombers of the RAF and Ninth were capable. The Eigth's heavies stopped doing ground support after St.Lo., for good reason.

That report also says that as early as the 18th they were instrument (radar) bombing, so it's hard to imagine recon flights being all that fruitful.

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>>547271
Have you read Masters of the Air? It's being used as source material for the next 10-part HBO 'Band of Brothers' mini-series.

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Anyone know where I can find an english translation of Gunther Rall's memoirs (Mein Flugbook) that doesn't cost an arm and a leg? I keep seeing it referenced everywhere, but I can't seem to find the actual book.

>>548895
no i havent but it looks good

>>548843
The 9th and the RAF were very capable. Reading up on the 8th now and they seem just as capable too. though the "no flying due to snow" thing seems to apply more to them in the documents.

darn you captcha a tank can be a recreational vehicle

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>>549229
>no i havent but it looks good

It's the first Eighth air-force book I've read that touched on the history of bomber crews who ditched in Switzerland and the horrendous treatment of those who did their duty and tried to escape.

>Fifteen other American bombers landed safely or crash-landed in Switzerland that day. Some of them had been fired on by Swiss pilots and flak gunners. This was not unusual. By the end of the summer of 1944, over a thousand Americans would be in Swiss hands, held under military guard and forbidden from leaving the country for the duration of the war.

>In the last two years of the war, the “benevolent hosts” of the American airmen threw 187 of them into one of the most abhorrent prison compounds in Europe, a punishment camp run by a sadistic Nazi. One of these unfortunates was Daniel Culler. Culler was never told why he was sent to Straflager Wauwilermoos, or for how long. As he passed through the gates of the prison, his military guard whispered to him. “I’m sorry to bring you to this hellhole. Watch your every step. There are some awful men in here, and you are so young.”

>“What happened to me that night, and many more to follow, was the worst hell any person ever had to endure,” Culler wrote in his searing prison memoir. A group of Russian prisoners held him down, stuffed straw in his mouth, and sodomized him repeatedly. “Coming from a small farming community, I never heard of men doing to me what they did. I... hadn’t even been with a girl, except to hold her hand and give her a light kiss on her cheek or mouth. I was bleeding from all the openings of my body, and I prayed to God to take my life from me.”

>>549279

>He was raped again the next morning and forced to have oral sex with several of his assailants, who stuck sticks in his mouth to pry it open. After being knocked unconscious, he awoke to find blood running down his throat. Too weak to move, and with his hands tied behind his back, he was thrown into the waste ditch outside the barracks. “When I finally came to my senses, I crawled from the ditch and tried to wipe myself with straw. I noticed something was hanging from my rectum, and realizing it was skin from the inside, I tried to push it back in.”

>Within days Culler’s entire body was covered with boils from the lice and rats in the feces-contaminated straw. The rapes continued and became more violent. He began to vomit blood and an unknown yellow substance, and he developed chronic, bloody diarrhea.

>When Culler was finally taken from Wauwilermoos and given his day in court, he discovered that Swiss justice was a mockery. The military court proceeding was conducted entirely in German, and when it was over, Culler was handed an English translation of the transcript. He would be sent back to Wauwilermoos without medical treatment and for an unstated period of time. The transcript did not contain a single word of his oral testimony describing his rape and the conditions inside the prison. The final indignity was a bill Culler received for 18 francs—compensation for the court’s time and trouble.

>Back in prison, Culler was tormented by a loud ringing in his ears—the result of beatings suffered at the hands of the Russians. They had been transferred, but sitting alone in a corner of the barracks, wrapped in a thin blanket, Dan Culler felt he was losing his mind. “The last I remember at Wauwilermoos, I was acting like a madman, trying to stuff straw down my throat so I could not breathe.”

>>549279
>>549280
The historian and the primary source write with a pathetic appeal*1 for sympathy.

To be honest given other rapes during WWII: toughen the fuck up.

*1 This is a technical term. Look it up.

>>549303
>To be honest given other rapes during WWII: toughen the fuck up.

In neutral countries?

>>552185
>In neutral countries?
How does this change my mind? This is exactly the same as playing up the victim's masculinity and virginity.

>>552209

I'm just asking if any other rapes of interned service men occured in neutral countries,

I don't know any other rape aficionados.

>>552309
Well I'm pretty sure that people were raped in Persia, Iraq, Sweden, etc…

Rape's a popular human pass time, particularly for men in prison.

>>548895
>next 10-part HBO 'Band of Brothers' mini-series.

Any updates on this? I remember hearing about it almost 2 years ago, but nothing since

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>>552330

Three weeks ago Miller did an interview saying the scripts are finalized and they've yet to decide locations and cgi vs real planes. Probably won't be out until 2017/2018.

The budget is massive and he quoted Tom Hanks wanting to make it "the best war movie ever."

It should be better than The Pacific at least, they wont have to keep jumping to and from unrelated characters to tell the story.

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>>547271
Spoiler alert P-51 mustang < ME262
>jet engine
>yeah get butthurt nerds

>>552428
>breaks in 5 minutes
nice engine m8

>>552439
>source needed

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>>552428

Burned so much fuel it could only operate within twenty-five miles of their bases.