>>540740 "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship.They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." Flavius Josephus, Roman historian.
>>541125 His opposition to Roman imperial taxation was why he was crucified alongside two insurrectionists, a punishment specifically used for rebels. He obviously wasn't a by-the-book socialist but theres alot of overlap.
>>541133 Because Paul converts sometime around 35AD, and he was persecuting Christians before this date (if Jesus was born in 5 BC, He would've died in 30) so about a 5 years gap of Christians being killed for believing Jesus is their Messiah. (2000 years later, Jews should know by now He already came)
I think the "magic" claim comes from the Jews, I think the kind of "magic" Jesus did wasn't spell crafting and stuff, not pentagrams and summoning spirits, rather Jesus had an esoteric teaching that helped people advance to understanding God, and being able to have a relationship with God.
And this couldn't have been standard Orthodox teachings at first, He had to have been doing something.
>>541224 thank you. I have been meaning to read the bible with the intent to gain a deeper understating of the message conveyed by Jesus. often people say he has a beautiful message regardless of whether he existed or not.
>>541226 I really like Matthew and John, but each Gospel portrays Jesus in a slightly different way, so you are getting the authors insight into their rendition of Jesus. The story is passed down through what I believe to be disciplic succession, where if it wasn't written by an Apostle it was the Gospel handed down from an Apostles to a disciple who later recorded it.
I know He tells His apostles not to travel with anything they don't need, and preach the Gospel (in likeness of ascetic monks) if I could find the quote I would
>>541196 >Interpolation Something tell me heard another atheist about Josephus quote being incorrect and you went along it. This is just like what is written "...but they became futile in their speculations, and their...heart was darkened..." Here the interpolated quote: “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.” But the I post is the one which scholars generally accept, despite being a later text.
I think it's Tacitus who mentions Christians being persecuted in 64AD by Nero, not sure of the date of the document and some people refute it's authenticity but there is much evidence against it being real or fake... like Jesus (unless you believe in Him :)
And Paul is mentioned during as Saul when he kills Christians and Paul after His conversion
>>541234 This is the thing with many Christians, is that they believe in Jesus only after He appears to them. Some have the doctrine and church, others know Him by observing God throughout their daily routine. His "appearance" happens usually after implied trauma of something that is significant to you.
If you were Paul killing people, then Jesus comes to you, that is just one example.
>>541273 Even when I was a Christian, I always thought this was a weak arguement. People die for dumb shit all the time. All the other religious people did for their faith. In fact, people die for ideologies, the state, and even for no damn reason at all. Why is it so convincing that a handful of people stuck it for The Man and got crucified? Cause if we're going by that logix, Islam or Buddhist seem to have the most feverish following.
>>541298 >Paul doesn't physically meet Jesus, but if you believe in God, you believe Paul met Jesus in Spirit.
Like I say, we agree that Paul did not meet Jesus. He had a vision. And really this is all the proof that any non-believer needs, for god to actually announce itself. Apparently only a few people qualify for this privilege.
>The Gospels date anywhere from 60 to 100. You ask a Christian they'll give you the earliest date and you ask someone secular they'll give you an outrageous date.
60-100 is about right, one generation after the alleged death of Jesus, a few anonymous writers copied down oral traditions.
A few Roman writers noted that Christianity existed and what they believed.
>>541298 I always heard the argument that since the Scriptures were recorded so close to the actual event (for ancient text), that they must be consistent. But from my understanding, there is substantial evidence of the church "fixing" text over time and using the classic religious "just figurative brah". How do Christian defend that besides "guided by the Holy Sipirit"?
>>541295 About 30 years after Jesus dies, people are willing to die for Him.
Consider why people were persecuting them in the first place.
It makes sense that if Christians existed that Jesus existed before them. Physical evidence, not so much but if you apply the conditions of the story to history it isn't like it is unbelievable. About 30-40 years?
That's like they can't find out when someone was born, so they'll give you something like
>>541313 The problem with "the church" is that they are all fighting over who is more right than the other. So, where are the real Christians?
Personally I grew up in a church that lacked in the Holy Spirit, not that it wasn't there, but priests shouldn't have rivalries and the church shouldn't have been excited that Obama was elected president, and the list goes on.
The Holy Spirit is everywhere. I think God would be happier if you picked up Islam rather than be an athiest, even if Christianity is the Way, the Holy Spirit empowers us to start somewhere.
And that's just one idea of how the Holy Spirit works, you are gonna get different answers from different Christians about who wrote the Bible.
>tfw God wrote the Bible >mfw people tampered with it
People think it is a heresy to believe that the Bible was written by human hands. Inspired by the Holy Spirit of course, but people can have the worst of intentions and try and stop the Holy Spirit from flowing, you know?
Then explain how two Christians who are in dispute over gods intentions settle the matter.
If you think Christianity is the way, then no other religious belief can be a stepping stone towards it. You either think that the only important fact of life is that Jesus is the son of god, or you don't.
>>541335 Paul had spiritual practice too. His revelation came for a reason because he was killing people and it needed to stop. It isn't like he just wrote some letters, his vision had to have been strong and he had to have been spiritually adept in order to recieve the vision as well.
>>541338 Christ / Chrest, the sound of the vowels I and E could be interchangeable.
>>541371 No some names crestus was in the city at that time. His group was diffrent from the Christian. And as before the Christians and jews would have been indistinguishable at this time. There is also a photo of the document with clear erasure marks.
>>541388 >Even if Jesus died in 26, Paul was still killing Christians and still received a revelation from Jesus around 35 AD maybe a couple years later
This proves the existence of Christians, not Jesus.
If god decided to give everyone the same revelation it gave Saul of Tarsus, then we might all believe too. All we really have to go on is that a man who knew what Christians believed wrote down what Christians believed. And a few decades later some anonymous authors wrote down oral accounts of the life of Jesus, and some Roman writers wrote down what Christians believed.
>>541412 >This proves the existence of Christians, not Jesus.
Christians don't exist without Jesus
>If god decided to give everyone the same revelation it gave Saul of Tarsus, then we might all believe too. "If" God gave the revelation to everyone but He doesn't because the Way of God isn't the same as the way of man.
We logically could say "well why doesn't God do this" but it is not up for humanity to decide what God should do, for we are inferior to God. And "God" is just a small word to describe what "God" actually is
>All we really have to go on is that a man who knew what Christians believed wrote down what Christians believed. Through application you can find out more.
>And a few decades later some anonymous authors wrote down oral accounts of the life of Jesus, and some Roman writers wrote down what Christians believed.
It is very likely the Apostles handed down their sermon and it wasn't written down until later
Jesus tells His apostles to preach the Gospel with only taking a robe and a stick (can't find quote rn, I know it's in one Gospel) and they start getting killed in 64 ish too.
Plus, all the Christians were getting killed as soon as Jesus died. Why write down His story when you're trying to save your life?
I don't follow? It's not possible to believe in the existence of someone who didn't exist? None of those who write about Jesus even claim to have met him.
>"If" God gave the revelation to everyone but He doesn't because the Way of God isn't the same as the way of man.
>We logically could say "well why doesn't God do this" but it is not up for humanity to decide what God should do, for we are inferior to God. And "God" is just a small word to describe what "God" actually is
So you don't have to answer these kind of questions, god has told you the answers aren't your business.
>Through application you can find out more.
>It is very likely the Apostles handed down their sermon and it wasn't written down until later
That's exactly what happened. They told their stories about Jesus, and over the next few centuries people picked which ones they liked best and made the bible.
>Plus, all the Christians were getting killed as soon as Jesus died. Why write down His story when you're trying to save your life?
How do you know this? Nobody wrote down anything about Jesus during his life or death. We have Paul from a decade later.
>>541465 No its nat a matter of have to. We can't. It is too unreliable known to be false in many instances and internally inconsistent. Just because people believe something lends no credence. We believe wring thongs all the time.
>>541461 Disciplic succession is how the Gospels were handed down of anything, but 50 (Paul) to 60-70 (Gospel dates) isn't really that big of a difference for someone to have faith Jesus existed.
Also, divine revelation to certain people who believe in God.
>So you don't have to answer these kind of questions, god has told you the answers aren't your business.
Nothing about what I said ever made this implied. Giving out decent answers here you know.
>That's exactly what happened. They told their stories about Jesus, and over the next few centuries people picked which ones they liked best and made the bible.
Giving us a good description of Jesus
>How do you know this? Nobody wrote down anything about Jesus during his life or death. We have Paul from a decade later.
Paul persecuted Christians before his conversion and Nero in 64 so it's just very likely historically. Divine revelation isn't a historical document, so it depends one what your spiritual state you are in, which to someone who doesn't believe in the nature of the soul, sounds ridiculous
>>541399 Not to be rude, but did you read someone else's debates and copy & paste them? It feels like Déjà vu. I had this discussion with someone on FJ with almost exact replies. >Jesus and James were fairly common names 1.) Citation, please. 2.) I didn't mention James. Oh, you old boy, you have been doing your homework, I see. Heh heh heh. 3.) Only one Jesus (or Jeshu) has been the attention of being called Christ or messiah, being crucified in favor of the Jews & Rome and known to miracles/sorcery towards one person. Here, just in case the thread ends before we could converse any farther. http://paxexsistovos.blogspot.com/2012/01/tacitus-suetonius-pliny-younger.html
>>541582 >That entire page is bald face...apologetic. Well, he does appear to shave. In that aspect; you're right. >Tacitus was recounting what they believed... It's still has credibility in why Christians were executed, what sets them apart from the common Roman citizen, it came from Judea, Pontius Pilate was involved and "the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time..." This also suggest Jews was attacking Christians, then later Christians manage to spread through out the Roman world...This quote not only reflects the gospel, but also the book of Acts and Romans. Let's face if this wasn't about the bible you won't disagree much about it.
>>541653 I question whether they were the still had not broken from judaism since tacitus seems to think they were just jews. There is also no evidence of Christians being kill for being Christians out side of christian sources. Romans really weren't in the habit of doing that for just religious reasons.
That is simply untrue the only reason this nonsense still has legs is because it is part of a religion. Normally this minor event would be filled away as dubious unverifiable sidestory .
>Jesus was a man >all men are mortal >jesus was mortal
Given how extraordinary the claim "Jesus was not mortal", to consider it true there must be very strong evidence to support it - stronger evidence than a 2000 tear old book written by a combination of Jesus' friends and people who never met him, and which is most likely at least partially metaphorical.
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