What's your favorite ancient troop? By ancient I mean before the use of gunpowder. Personally I like the varangian guard from the Byzantine empire. Those guys were badass. Pic related
Have you guys heard of the Sikh Nihangs? They fought against mass-converting Muslims in India. Their most famous battle is Chamkaur wherein 60 Nihangs faced more than 100,000+ Muslims, effectively killing themselves whilst taking out 100s of Muslims.
The same ones that were castrated?
If it were my choice I would want to be a longbowman. I wanted to do that so much that when I was a little kid I joined an archery club and was there for two years.
Landsknecht is a strong second, I want to look fabulous when I fight.
Jannisaries weren't castrated. Where does this meme come from, Game of Thrones?
>crossed swords with crusaders
>rekt the mognols
>Took over and ruled for centuries
> I mean I don't think those guys go to fight with those long ass hats
oh ,but they did
Never understood why everyone always loved the Janissaries.
For me its the Swiss pike/ halberd men. Fought to the last man, always charged first and asked questions later, and hardly ever wavered even in the face of gunfire.
Hello where are the infantry formations that I can break?
don't forget the Camel edition.
This, always liked cataphracts whether they be Parthian, Seleucid, Sassanid, or Roman. Though I prefer the latter due to being a byzaboo.
>got rekt by a bunch of peasant slingers at Sphacteria
>Spartan State immediately got knocked on their ass and confused what to do when a bunch of the survivors surrendered, who belonged to the top families
>literally too retarded to figure out that Hoplites alone can't win every battle and circumstance
Not all shock troops are created equal. In any case, heavy cav is at a severe disadvantage when facing trained infantry in a proper formation. Like their light cav cousins, they usually make brief contact before wheeling away, rather than plowing right into melee like some kind of Hollywood BS. It's not much different from the tactics of a much older kind of heavy cav, the chariots of Ramesses &c. In all three cases nobody gets into prolonged contact with enemy infantry until they have already broken.
The key here is
>When facing trained infantry
The fact is that during the time period that heavy cavalry were in wide use, trained infantry weren't really a thing. When militaries decided that mobs of rabble weren't good enough anymore, heavy cav began to fall out of favor.
>The fact is that during the time period that heavy cavalry were in wide use, trained infantry weren't really a thing.
I like and mostly agree with your point here. But I'd relate it as much to geography as to time. Heavy cav were in wide use for a very long time in the steppes, but for a lesser time on the North European plain, and they were laughably overrated in France. Opinions on this?
The wide usage of cavalry on the steppes and plains had to do alot with the environment. Nomadic tribes like those who are best known for their cavalry (Huns, Alans, Magyars) more or less relied on horses for everything. Therefore, utilizing cavalry instead of infantry is second nature and a "no-brainer".
France is a bit different though. When talking about cavalry in France, you have to remember that feudalism basically started in France. At its roots, feudalism is essentially a military system focused on supplying specific individuals (nobles) with the means to become heavy cavalry. Because feudalism was created and most heavily indoctrinated in France, cavalry stuck around for a while. After a while, the nobles began considering it their right to ride a horse into battle, which served to cement heavy cavalry even further. Finally, there are loads of battles where the French saw overwhelming success using heavy cavalry, and were therefore quick to dismiss its other failures and continue using the system.
Doesn't get any better than this. Cataphract camels are a close second, and I wish war giraffes had become a thing
Dacians. Specifically warriors who used the falx(i.e the little beauty eating through that poor legionary's shield like it was cardboard). Something you got to admire about a warrior culture that gave the Romans so much shit that it's the only recorded instance in which the legions where forced to make drastic alterations to their armor while on campaign.
Alright, Fags. The Spartans were the best forces in the Greek sphere until the sacred band, bar none. They fought where they were told and one where they fought and their reputation is justly deserved.
Now, as for the fag blaming it on slingers, those were a reaction to the Spartan way of war and the Spartan way of war was to interoperate with other greeks. Seriously, they were in Laconia and their navy consisted of twenty triremes when they were connected to the Greek homeland by what's basically a sandbar. That's insane.
Traditionally, they were the shield of Hellenic civilization. They would take the field with a combined Greek army to fight barbarians or the persians or whoever and when they did, they would provide elite heavy infantry that couldn't be matched.
Then, riding on the heels of Persian wars, they went full retard and decided to be the next Delian league. Now the problem with this is that other other city-state's hoplites were no slouches either. Think back to the Athenian victory at Marathon. A battle that was won with brains, blood and bronze. Those Athenian and Theban infantry took weeks or monts to train.
Those Spartan Hoplites took twelve to twenty-four years to train. And they never relaxed their standards. Not once. Their solution was "Have more sons" but that only went so far.
So the Spartiate dwindled from thousands to a few hundred, attrited down to nothing over the course of decades of war. Because when one of them died, his replacement was years away. When a Theban died, his replacement was weeks away.
Cataphracts were actually pretty fucking well known for breaking trained infantry. Being able to do so is the reason that hellenes and romans adopted them.
There's a myriad of reasons they're not relaly comparable to other havy cavalry.
Early groups would have stupidly lomg lances that mmeant the front rank was implaed long before the horse was going to contact them.
Byzantine cathprachts had archers on the flanks ot shoot them in-meaning they'd shower the targeted section of the enemy force with arrows-along with men IN the wedge with bows, and often hurled maces at the enemy before impact.
Yes, maces. They also liked to hunt deer that way. They were also noted for being absolute terrors with said maces in the melee.
It's also worth noting that the menaulion was SPECIFICALLY used by byzantine infantry to kill heavily armored turks on armored horses who'd smashed into the infantry formations, or to screen the force from their charge entirely.
Regular pikes and spears could break or be turned aside by the horses armor.
Given that the gendarmes were able to charge THROUGH pike blocks more than once-I'd disagree.
>the shield of Hellenic civilization.
Hey remeber when they helped the horribly outnumbered athenian army at marathan an won one of the battles that is oft stated among th emost important in western history?
That's funny, because they didn't show up.
Remeber when persia came back, and the spartans nobly marched north to save all of greece?
That's because they wanted to build a fucking wall to save their portion of greece, and leave much of their civilization hanging out in the wind, including athens.
>Those Athenian and Theban infantry took weeks or monts to train.
You mean plateans?
>Those Spartan Hoplites took twelve to twenty-four years to train
Except both groups would begin learning to fight wars in early boyhood, and continue until they were too advanced in age to fight.
Other greeks practiced their skills less, but "weeks or months" is a retarded, bullshit number you just made the fuck up. A dead hoplite meant you were waiting for a new male citizen of equivalent or better wealth to come of age. This is true for EVERY greek city.
On top of this... 12 to 24 years?
First, no, sparta never fielded 12 year olds.
Second, no, no 23 year old was sitting in Sparta during a war because his training wasn't done.
Third, no, because the agoge-and all other spartan training-included plenty of philosophy, rhetoric, and other intellectual pursuits, as spartans, like all other greeks, believed that men who could think AND fight were better men, and better men get better results, at everything, because arete is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. Especially to hoplites. How the FUCK do you think they came by laconic humor? Stupid men are not capable of expressing complete ideas laconically, much less being funny. ESPECIALLY in writing.
Fourth, The spartan population was doing just fucking fine when they got crushed by a smaller force, led by a smarter tactician using better tactics at leuctra.
Fuck you. Fucking idiot.
Wow mate you are entirely too angry about his post.
He was responding to short meme tier posts. He countered to best of his ability, which to you then jumped on like a dragoon in ffxiv to tear apart to look the better.
Pro-tip: Nobody on 4chan knows who you are. Nobody cares how smart you are either.
I'm tearing it apart because it's fucking wrong. The premise of the post is wrong. The details are wrong.
And he's not responding to "meme" posts.
Sphacteria IS a direct result of spartan inflexibility, and this inflexibility cost them several other battles-far from a meme. There's not some special spartan way of war that the other anons were unaware of, and they sure as fuck didn't use other Greeks to effect a combined arms style of war like he's implying.
Almost everything he had to say is easily shown to be untrue with even a modicum of research.
Leonidas may have had an opinion that was different from most other spartans. Or he may have simply understood that he needed to act to keep athens from simply bowing out of the war before their city was lost-which is vital, because only they could keep the Persians from sailing around any walls on the isthmus of corinth.
Additionally, it wasn't a sacrifice initially. Had the hidden path around the greeks not been revealed, they could have held off the persians far, far longer than they did, and htis would have forced a retreat in due time.
As is, the only certainty is that SOMEONE had to stay behind and die, because if the entire army left, they'd just get run down.
european knights to be honest. A better version of the cataphract
Reading comprehension, motherfucker. Since this is apparently baby's first troll, I'll enlighten you.
The primary sources agree with me. Go back and read your Xenophon. In his description of the spartiate, if you do the math on the formations that he describes, the Spartiate during the Persian wars numbered just over 3,500. A few hundred Spartans. This is where I base my assessment of their faulty training pipeline. The Spartiate could prevail in a few high intensity battles, driving off raiding Thracians or whoever. They could not maintain their numbers over the course of the years of sustained combat that comprised the Peloponesian and Boeotian/Sacred wars.
>That's because they wanted to build a fucking wall to save their portion of greece, and leave much of their civilization hanging out in the wind, including athens
But they were at the battle of plataea. This is normal in Coalitional wars. No one wants to be the sacrificial lamb that hangs their ass out so that others can perform the final glorious push. The Spartans didn't do as much as they could, but they didn't sit the war out, either.
If you want a real clusterfuck, look at the French incursion into Northern England in concert with the Scots during the Hundred years war. It brings new meaning to the term "Passive Aggressive"
>You mean plateans?
No, I mean Athenians. Miltiades commanded an Athenian force against the Persians at Marathons. Go back and read my statement again: I said it was an Athenian victory.
>Except both groups would begin learning to fight wars in early boyhood, and continue until they were too advanced in age to fight.
Debatable. The Athenians seemed to be on the citizen levy model as per the rest of Greece. Athenian Hoplites might have trained hard but the Spartiate were soldiers and nothing else. The code of Lycurgus specifically forbids them from taking up a trade.
longbowman? i hope you know that being a longbowman probably was the most boring (but maybe also the safest) soldier to be. your work was basically to stand between hundreds of fellow longbowmans, draw and shoot until you got commanded to stop. those guys didn't even aim nor could count kills, it was quantity over quality.
One of the defining feature of long bowmen was their unusual willingness to get stuck in, and ability to handle it when they did.
They were well known for skill with both swords and pole arms, and the fact that they were dual-use is part of the reason that they ended up being valued mercenaries on the crossbow-happy continent.
>Can't into Horse archery
what? They beat the turks, who employed horse archers extensively, in several battles during the first crusade, and they beat other horse archer users in other crusades as well. The idea that horse archers > knights is retarded
>Only knows CHARDGE
What else would you have them do? Charges were the most efficient use of melee cavalry at any point. Any medieval army would be helpless against a well timed charge. They could also dismount and fight on foot if needed.
>The idea that horse archers > knights is retarded
>Implying I'm saying this.
Furthermore the Crusaders were desperate for light cavalry actually. Employing Turkic Mercenaries both Christian and Otherwise for this job.
>What else would you have them do? Charges were the most efficient use of melee cavalry at any point.
Precisely my point. As cavalry knights were one trick ponies. Meanwhile cataphracts can into charge and skirmishing.
You can't fight in Asia as cavalry just by having only "charge" as your entire repertoire.
>They can dismount and fight on foot
Any soldier worth their shit could do that.
>Video games are accurate
The bows in warband are far too accurate for the period. Also the fact that your opponents' attacks ignore collision detection with their allies is stupid.
If you're interested brytenwalda is a decent replication of late dark ages combat (spears, shields and throwing weapons all around), but everything else in that mod is reasonably full of wank.
Would I put Athenian hoplites up against any other force in the classical world? Yes I would.
As such, it took a short amount of time to get an Athenian into the field. Even a cherry Athenian had weeks of formal training under his belt before ever having to take the field.
>First, no, sparta never fielded 12 year olds.
>Second, no, no 23 year old was sitting in Sparta during a war because his training wasn't done.
READING. COMPREHENSION! A Spartan was in the Agoge for years. I didn't say that they were fielded at twelve, I said that they had a training pipeline that lasted years. Spartans that had completed the Agoge but had not joined a Sysitia were used as auxillary troops during normal operations but were not used as frontline troops during normal operations. It is most likely that those who hadn't been accepted into a communal mess were put on the lines from the Persian war onwards. This didn't change the fact that they had to survive that decade plus in the Agoge.
Between the wars, upon graduation from the Agoge, A Spartan had until the age of 31 to be accepted into a Sysitia upon a unanimous vote before he could be a full Spartiate or marry.
This is the true source of their staffing woes. There were plenty of ways to get kicked out of the Spartiate but only one way to get into it: Be born from Spartans, graduate the Agoge and marry into it. This was enshrined into their law (see: Code of Lycurgus)
As such, they were attrited to nothing by the time that they faced the sacred band.
The original image was by John White in the 1500s which he painted as a depiction of "the barbarians of caledonia" and is titled "the true picture of one pict".
The artist was just uneducated.
>Third, no, because the agoge-and all other spartan training-included plenty of philosophy, rhetoric, and other intellectual pursuits, as spartans, like all other greeks, believed that men who could think AND fight were better men, and better men get better results, at everything, because arete is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. Especially to hoplites. How the FUCK do you think they came by laconic humor? Stupid men are not capable of expressing complete ideas laconically, much less being funny. ESPECIALLY in writing.
I never disputed this, nor would I.
>Fourth, The spartan population was doing just fucking fine when they got crushed by a smaller force, led by a smarter tactician using better tactics at leuctra.
The population itself, the Spartiate not so much.Keep in mind that the majority of the population of Sparta was made of non-citizens and slaves. This combined with the freeing of the Helots made them unable to be what they had traditionally been.
>the shield of Hellenic civilization.
Now you're just taking me out of context. They were "Traditionally, the shield of Hellenic civilization"
The Spartans are credited with running the tyrants out of Greece but we only know this from secondary sources. Other than that, they did act to defend Greece and then they got greedy, started the Peloponesian wars and were shut down.
>interoperating with other greeks
I will again direct you to their anemic navy. For naval support, they depended upon their Thracian Allies. For military support they depended upon their client states in the hills outside Sparta.
Given the knowledge that you've already demonstrated, you should know this.
Oh, and fuck you for making me rewrite my seminar paper.
>infantry shock troops that fought on foot, with light arms and baggage, generally with a pair of short spears (azconas), a long knife (coltell) and sometimes a small round shield as the only defense. They had full beards and dressed poorly, only in a short gown (both in summer and winter); they wore a thick leather belt and leather sandals. In addition, they always used to carry a good piece of flint with them that they struck their weapons with before going into battle, which gave off enormous sparks, which, together with their terrible cries, terrorized their enemies. Endowed with great valor and ferocity, those from the Crown of Aragon entered into combat to the cry of "Rise Iron! Let's kill, let's kill", "for Saint George!" and "Aragon! Aragon!".
They fought as mercenaries far and wide, enough such that "Catalan" is a derogatory term in the Balkans.
Swiss Pikemen. They pretty much ended the age of heavy cavalry in Europe.
Even if that were true it wouldn't be the Swiss pikemen by themselves, but the coronelias (proto-tercios) introduced by the Great Captain during the Italian Wars, specifically at the Battle of Cerignola. Pikemen coupled with arquebusiers, artillery, and sword and bucklermen are what neutralised the gendarmes.
There is only one acceptable answer.
Except bows don't do shit to armor without repeated hits. Which are only going to happen if the archer cav has enough numbers to suppress the enemy and maintains formation.
Remember bows were never a direct cause of casualties outside of light infantry. But even a gambeson can protect against arrows enough to reduce their strikes to flesh wounds.
Then you just leave, it's not like they can do anything to your army, you can't reach them, so both parties just leave the field.
Alternatively you form a sphere of shields and question the Mongol's parentage while playing a game of cards.
No, no, and no again.
Byzantine manuals make it VERY fucking clear that the cataphracts tire out VERY easily, and they they absolutely cannot be running their horses about the field, at all.
Knights were fully able to act as light cavalry-fuck, their equipment actually matches that of many light cavalry, being maybe ~20lbs heavier at the outside.
They just didn't do so in pitched battles, because they were much, much better off waiting and launching decisive shock attacks-it's not for nothing that the Byzantines wrote of the charge of Frankish knights as unstoppable.
>Any soldier worth their shit could do that.
No, they really, really can't. Most cavalry perform spectacularly badly mounted, and VERY few would have performed as well as western knigths did at dorylaeum-their ability to withstand several HOURS of point blank shooting is the only reason the turks lost the battle.
>still quoting a fucking game
Steppe archers lost to direct assault by heavier cavalry more than once.
The avars, in particular, got trounced by byantines running them down with spears.
You're missing the bit where the agog was suspended numerous times for the express purposes of replenishing the spartan male population.
It was late as fuck where I was when I posted.
Accept my humble and meaningless apology for being a cunt.
I still disagree with some of what you said, but spoke far too generally for it to come across right.
The swiss were beaten so badly by the french that they entered into an eterneam neutriality with them.
The centerpiece of the french force was the gendarmes, and they had NO problem assaulting the swiss many, many times.
Heavy cavalry start going away when OTHER cavalry start using carbines.
You use strategic manuvering to pin them against elements of the terrain and then kill them.
Germans doing exactly this is the reason the magyars stopped raiding europe.
Steppe archers followed a cycles of
>everyone gets used to them
>new tribal group flees the steppes
Yeh, thats not true at all. The battle youre talking about (marignano) was a one sided victory in which France had a 2:1 manpower ratio and the advantage of cannon. The battle was won by those facts, not the 1700 cavalry the French brought.
The Swiss are great because they were incredibly prideful, disciplined and frankly awesome. Once again, the battle you cited started because the Swiss signed a peace treaty with the French, and but their troops decided fuck it, we can take them anyways.
There are far more examples of Swiss victories against forces of the time period than not, especially before the time of gunpowder (which is the period in question). Marignano was barely, if at all, within that time frame anyways.
The swiss were hemmed in and unable to simply go AROUND the black legion and neutralize the cannon specifically because their flanks were getting hammered by the gendarmes.
Regardless, the fact that it's "barely in the time period" and yet features a large force of heavy cavalry just proves the point-the swiss did NOT "end the age of heavy cavalry in europe."
>that';s not true
Eternal neutrality came after that battle.
>Byzantine manuals make it VERY fucking clear that the cataphracts tire out VERY easily, and they they absolutely cannot be running their horses about the field, at all.
>implying Byzantines were the only ones to use cataphracts.
>implying they're not the most RETARDED in using Cataphracts in the East
>Cataphracts soldiers can't fight on foot.
Its funny because the training of cataphracts heavily involved melee and fighting on foot, going by Persian/Chinese/Turkic examples.
Eternal neutrality against the French, yes. And the Germans. And the Italians, and Poles, and Native Americans and Japanese, because the Swiss never fought another offensive war again. It wasnt because they were scared of French cavalry, it was due to political circumstances.
The fact that there was a force of heavy cavalry present doesnt mean much at all. Heavy cav are very worthwhile when used correctly, such as they were to some degree at Marignano. The fact remains though that when the tilt towards infantry came about, heavy cavalry ceased to be the focus of an army. It really wasnt the focus at Marignano either, as the French army included cannon and over 10x as many infantry men as cavalry men, as well as 17000 landsknechts, who were nearly the Swiss' equals.
Heavy cavalry goes away due to pikemen such as the Swiss and those found in the Tercio. In fact, the use of cavalry really dropped off for quite a while until pistols came around, at which point cavalry saw a resurgence (even though pistol cavalry are utter shit and laughable).
Im not trying to say that the Swiss themselves completely ended the age of heavy cav in Europe (not the origional poster to this discussion). The use of infantry, such as the Swiss pikemen, is to blame for that. Im saying that cavalry certainly did not "have NO problem assaulting the Swiss". There are far more instances of cavalry being beaten horribly by the Swiss than not, because heavy cavalry alone cannot beat them.
>Cataphracts soldiers can't fight on foot.
Go ahead, point to where this is stated.
And please, feel free to contradict an empire that spent centuries using your pet warriors for actual war, and to ignore that a horse bearing a heavy man wiht multiple layers of armor, it' sown armor, a lance, sword, mace, and possibly more weapons might tire a little fucking fast if you try to make it dance like a steppe pony bearing an archer with his bow, arrows, clothes, and a dagger or sword.
>implying Byzantines were the only ones to use cataphracts.
Except that isn't implied anywhere but in your tiny little mind, anon. The Byzantines juts happen to be the ones who wrote a number of manuals involving the use of cataphracts for us to read.
And you're going to find few-if any-examples of catahpracts dismounting to fight outside of sieges, or ambushes in terrain where fighting mounted isn't practical.
This includes among Byzantines battles, and they WOULD dismount cavalry if they had no other infantry.
>Go ahead, point to where this is stated.
When you said "No, they really, really can't." to my comment that any soldier worth shit can do that (fight on foot).
>And please, feel free to contradict an empire that spent centuries using your pet warriors for actual war,
Again, that notion that they were the only one!
First and foremost I am biased.
It be best to mention Punjabi warriors, about as ancient as the Janissary. Notable for uniting a banner under one ethnicity containing Sikhs, Hindus' and Muslims - against theocratic armies with small incentive to maintain the native populations around where Pakistan is now.
They weren't say, ruthless, rather fiercely accommodating.
And ofcourse the British fuck shit up and take advantage of the whole situation, thus financing the biggest colonial operation in history next to Genghis Khan's nutsack.
>Again, that notion that they were the only one!
Only. In. your. head.
I never stated or implied this.
But please, feel free to find me the parthian and saka writings on the subject, so we can see what they had to say.
The comment youre referring to I believe was him stating that "any solider worth shit can fight on foot" was false.
As for your second part, youre misreading again. He never said that the byzantines were the only cataphracti users. He said that those are the ones that we know the most about, so of course were going to use them as the basis. The Byzantines were the best at using them, and they documented their use the best, so therefore their notes on the uses of cataphracti are the best available to use.
>This, always liked cataphracts whether they be Parthian, Seleucid, Sassanid, or Roman. Though I prefer the latter due to being a byzaboo.
For one thing: Cataphracts have bows. All of them.
For another: Skirmishing doesnt just mean light cavalry doing hit and run shit. It usually involves all of them. The heavy cunts included. Who, by the way, leaves their lances and other weapons to their attendants back in camp. Along with the spare horse.
Finally, the only time *Asian* Cataphracts ever charge is during the final act of a typical Eastern battle. Which usually follows after shitloads of skirmishing.
Hence the invention of the cataphract by steppe people to begin with. The Persians and the Chinese responded to the early dominance of steppe nomads by having shitloads of infantry archers make life miserable for them. All that armor wasn't for melee initially but was a way for steppe nobility to keep safe while plinking away return fire.
You know, during skirmishing.
>For one thing: Cataphracts have bows.
>All of them.
No. In fact, there's plenty of sources indicating otherwsie-Again, the byzantiens explciitng mention some men having them in the center of a wedge, while the exterior men lack them. They still don't "skirmish" with these bows.
The cataphracts at carrahe aren't mentioned as having bows at all, relying on their supporting cavalry to do the shooting.
Given how impossilbe it owuld be to transport a kontos and use a bow at the same time, this is not surprising.
Ah, I see now.
You're retarded, and don't actually know what skirmishing is.
Here's a secret:
Using a missile weapon doesn't make you a skirmisher, nor does it mean you are skirmishing.
Firing from an organized formation in a static or rarely changing position isn't skirmishing, either, which excludes byzantine cataphracts with bows-they either sat inside the wedge, or looped out in front of the heaviest men, shot, and withdrew
Furthermore, the image you posted isn't a fucking skirmishing tactic, it's a feigned attack. They're not the same thing, and they do NOT require the horses to do more than trot for a short time.
Having a bow does not equate to being skilled in its use or even using it.
Regardless, the key problem being neglected here is weight. A horse carrying a fully armored man along with weapons and the like, no matter how much weight is shoved on an attendant, is going to be slower and far more encumbered than one carrying a horse archer. Heavy cavalry simply cannot keep up with light cavalry.
The way to beat light cavalry is, as said before, to use the heavy cavalry to corner the light using surrounding terrain. Heavy cavalry typically cannot defeat its light archer counterpart on flat terrain. This is a fact.
See, this is your problem: you base shit you know on Byzantines. Only one people. One
Of all the people who used Cataphracts. The Entire continent of Asia. One. The Byzantines.
Meanwhile I'm talking of *most* of the people who used Cataphracts: Asians like the Persians and Central Asian Nomads. Lets throw in the Altaics for a good measure.
So by all means, tell me I am wrong based on Byzantine tactics. Were done here.
This post just proves how annoying spartanfags are. You fucks are just like the weebs who claim samuria were the best thing ever
Yes, parthians are Byzantines too.
And only horses with Byzantines on them suffer from weight related issues when covered in iron that prevent them from moving like unarmored horses.
Oh, and the definition of "skirmish" only applies to Byzantines.
And they clearly used their imported style of eastern cavalry totally different from everybody else.
And there are so many excellent sources you can post to back your claims.
I'd love to see your source for EVERY cataphract carrying bows.
Or for said men even semi-regularly being deliberately dismounted outside of a siege, ambush, or other situation where horses were rendered useless or near useless.
Also, those neo-assyrians? The ones with armor, on armored horses?
Ignore that they initially didn't use bows at all. They don't count.
Also, disregard the Hellenes, who considered horse archers and cataphracts distinctly different forces, and they they UNIVERSALLY used them as an assault fore, not to skirmish.
Fuck how horses work
In magic anon-land, the power of ASIANS invalidates these things, and those fuckers can use their magic powers to loose a bow and skirmish with all the fleetness of an unencumbered steppe pony despite bearing more than twice the load.
Oh, and ignore that the cataphracts at Tigranocerta got fucked specifically because they couldn't respond effectively to roman movements. Because they were too fucking heavy. The exact opposite of what you see out of skirmishers.
>Train from 5 to ride horses
>Become proficient in shooting arrows from any possible angle
>Rape your way across the middle east and all the way to Europe with little resistance
This is so cliche but Ive never wanted to be anything but ive only ever wanted to be a ninja or a samurai since I was a kid
I think Africans were just too damned lazy or stupid to domesticate anything.
Last two posts that you quoted. I was actually just trying to give a reason as to why the Spartiate failed. Do I still hold that they were the best trained troops in the Greek sphere? Yes I do.
With that level of training and conditioning, a motherfucker is going to come marching out the other end. That being said, they were over trained and resource intensive. They were good but they weren't that much better and if anything, they're a case study in diminishing returns.
It's also particularly annoying that they suck all of the air out of the room for the other Greek martial cultures. The Thebans and Lesbians in particular need some love.
I've always liked loosely organized raiders, so folks like
Norse (don't hate, not memeing)
Macedonian Shock cavalry are
>B A S E D
they had reds from ochre, yellow from sulfur, blood and chalk along with greens from plant pigments. its a myth that they were only coloured blue from woad in fact ochre was more prevalent.
>its a myth that they were only coloured blue from woad
Archeologists testing it have actually concluded that it's basically impossible to use woad as body paint at all. It's a fabric dye, it doesn't work for skin.
The Goths were pretty awesome. I like the Ostrogoths a bit more since they seemed to develop better cavalry, but Visigoths are cool too.
> question the Mongol's parentage while playing a game of cards.
You think the mongols used only horse archers and cavalry when their empire got big?
They didn't. There is a museum here and their armors are in display. This one is an example.
I don't remember, even though that armor is something else the displayed janissary armor is very similar to it, I remember it having a chainmail and a similar helmet. You can go and see yourself, for museum info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_Military_Museum
Horses and Elephants are pack animals. Pack animals follow the alpha animal, which makes them easier to domesticate. Just convince them that you are the alpha animal.
Zebras and giraffes are herd animals. Herd animals tend to do their own thing. Even when trained, they'll do their own thing if they want to, like a cat.
Zebras, giraffes and even cows can be rode, but they're unpredictable due to their nature. They're not suited to domestication for transportation.
Not one mention of anything /pol/ related yet here comes the redditor
>muh pol labeling
>i r cognizent ergo i will label potential refuters first before they refute my idiocy
They wore armor, including armored helmets during the 15th and early 16th centuries, but after gunpowder weapons became their primary armament they started wearing their goofy parade costume into combat instead of armor
It's almost like you have to create an artificial environment using pens and continued pedigree breeding across generations to change an animal's nature......
Something native Africans never thought to try.....ever.....
I'll tell you a little story about two villages, one called Hiz and the other called Pol. Hiz was full of people who loved to talk and Pol was full of people who loved to shit in their bathtubs and roll around in it all day. Sometimes, people from Pol would go into Hiz and try to join in the conversations. But the people from Hiz would smell the shit clinging to the filthy Pol-ites' diseased bodies and would reject them. "Fuck off, /pol/tard!" they'd cry. No matter what the hapless Pol-ite did or said, the only response was "Fuck off, /pol/tard!"
And the people of Pol were sad. They brought their problem to the smartest man in all of Pol and asked his advice. He got his biggest bathtub, filled it with the foulest shit he could find and sat in it for a week, stewing. Everyone in Pol grew more and more tense the more he pondered. They knew he was very clever and wise - some folks said he could read without moving his lips, though most were skeptical about talk of such feats - but could he crack this nut?
Finally, the smartest man in all of Pol emerged from his bathtub of shit and announced that he had found a solution. Everyone gathered around to hear his wisdom.
"What we will do," he told them, "is this: Whenever they say 'Fuck off, /pol/tard!' we will-" he paused, furrowing his brows for a moment in intense concentration, as though he had lost grip of his momentous idea. Then he started. "Yes!" he cried. "We will... uh... yes! We'll tell them we aren't from Pol!"
Silence greeted this extrusion. A young man in the crowd put his hand up.
"But... we ARE from Pol," he said, bewildered.
"Yes," said the wise man, "but, and it's very complicated and tricky, I know, BUT, what we do is, we... TELL them that we're not. And then they'll have to talk to us!"
The young man put his hand up again.
"But... we ARE from Pol," he said again.
The wise man sighed and began to speak once more.
It took several months of classes and speeches and diagrams and tutorials, but after much effort, most of the people of Pol were fairly sure that they could manage to say that they weren't from Pol. And so a contingent was dispatched to Hiz, in high spirits at the prospect of their inevitable success.
As soon as they entered Hiz, the people there began to yell at them "Fuck off, /pol/tards!"
The Pol-ites nudged and winked and grinned at one another. "We're not from Pol!" they cried.
But the people of Hiz responded: "Of course you're from Pol, you fucking /pol/tards, we can smell the shit all over you! Fuck off, /pol/tards!"
They went home, as dejected as they were mystified.
They did. Here's the thing about Zebras: Like everything else on that continent, they are mean as shit. Zebras kill more zoo keepers than any other animal and if you put two of them together in a breeding pen, they'll just kick each other to death if they don't want to be around each other. They can't be selectively bred and so cannot be domesticated.
Meanwhile in Russia....drunken slavs trained bears to ride bicycles and in Canada they had success domesticating fucking Moose.
Africa has 0 excuses. Go back to Jared Diamond porn you NatGeotard
>implying it isn't
>implying credit isn't necessary for an economy to grow
>implying usury bans aren't a primary reason that the Arab world stagnated while the west, with a bunch of Jews to handle the moneylending, succeeded
>implying the global economy hasn't increased by several factors of ten now that banking is a legal, commonplace service
Eugenics might be a good solution after all.
>Meanwhile in Russia....drunken slavs trained bears to ride bicycles and in Canada they had success domesticating fucking Moose.
That's not domestication. That's taming. A tame animal can break it's conditioning and turn on it's handler far more easily than one that's been domesticated across the generations.
As for domesticating the moose? A zebra is not a moose. Additionally, they don't need excuses. They domesticated donkeys which actually puts them one higher than Europeans.
So say it with me now...
>WE DOMESTICATED AUROCHS AND SHIT!
You do realize that at this point Russian circus's have trained bears for so long that they are considered 'fully tamed' right?
>a zebra is not a Moose
A zebra can't flip a fucking compact car when it gets angry. Canadians domesticated them, and furthermore snow tribes domesticated fucking reindeer.
You WUZ NOT KINGS
>The North African aurochs (Bos primigenius africanus) once lived in the woodland and shrubland of North Africa. It descended from aurochs populations migrating from the Middle East. The North African aurochs was morphologically very similar to the Eurasian subspecies, so that this taxon may exist only in a biogeographic sense. However, there is evidence that it was genetically distinct from the Eurasian subspecies. Depictions indicate that North African aurochs may have had a light saddle marking on its back. This subspecies may have been extinct prior to the Middle Ages
The oldest evidence of Aurochs declares India as their country of origin. Then there was one subspecies that migrated to Africa and died out. I guess that explains why we never see Kentucky Fried Beef.
War elephants will always be my fav but a shout-out to Poland is needed.
>tfw will never know the satisfaction of throwing pila right before the charge
>tfw will never hear centurion switch me in and out of the front
>tfw will never die for the emperor