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Can we have a proper Holocaust thread where...
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Can we have a proper Holocaust thread where we provide and discuss the primary evidence?

Keep it polite and make serious points please.

Eichmann's confession.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK4nVaFvK10

Original documentary used in the Nuremberg trial.

https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Nuremberg-Trial-Film-Nazi-Concentration-Camps

Eyewitness testimony from a German engineer

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-engineer.htm
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Eyewitness testimonies for Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/ar/argaschambers.html
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Secondary source rather than primary but this databse of victims has been worked on for decades.

http://db.yadvashem.org/names/search.html?language=en
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Excerpts from Goebbel's diary.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goebbels-joseph/goebbels-1948-excerpts-01.html
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Information about Jan Karski an important Polish witness.

http://www.jankarski.net/en/about-jan-karski/jan-karski-life.html
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The Wanssee protocol - a discussion between high ranking Nazi officials on "the Jewish question".

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/wannsee.asp
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>>509405
Thank you for a proper thread.
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Heinrich Himmler makes a speech about the extermination of the Jews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a_cmbi3iIg
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>>509447

Thank you, anon.
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Testimony of Oskar Groening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVfFHJE0e1g
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Treblinka's ashes are mixed with sand and spread 237,000 square feet around the monuments. Human bones have been found in shallow excavations of the soil containing the sand/ash mixture.

Official Nazi SS records indicate exactly 750,000 were transported to Treblinka. As far as these records are concerned, Treblinka I and II are the same camp.

The camp was designed to kill starting with dehydration, sickness, starvation, injury, and hypothermia occuring on the train rides. Diabetics, small children, infants, and elderly were particularly susceptible to these methods.

Workers preformed janitorial work, cooking, laundry, digging, stoved fires, and logging (to keep the building warm). Those who worked with corpses extracted gold teeth and valubles while later on mashing bones. They worked while fed a starvation diet designed to kill. The sick were denied medical care. These workers were often replaced daily by necessity.

Those who fought or ran were shot and a selection of men, women, and children that were too young to work were gassed to incite fear.

Only late in Treblinka's run did large gassing operations and mass burning take place.

Someone did ask about Treblinka. Do they need sources?
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>>509468
Yes, please
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>>509468

Yes I would like sources, anon.
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>>509405

No we cannot, because nobody is intersted in the scholarly merits of the event. People are instead interested in pushing their narrative, regardless of facts.


All holocaust threads inevitably turn into shitflinging.
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In 1946 the British government set up an inquiry with the specific intent of discrediting Jewish immigration to Palestine and downplaying the Holocaust. It was headed by centre-right, non-Jewish, senior judges, civil servants and diplomats from America and the UK.

Its reluctant findings estimated the number of Jewish victims from the Holocaust at 5.7 million...

Germany - 195,000
Austria - 53,000
Czechoslovakia - 255,000
Denmark - 1,500
France - 140,000
Belgium - 57,000
Luxemburg - 3,000
Norway - 1,000
Holland - 120,000
Italy - 20,000
Yugoslavia - 64,000
Greece - 64,000
Bulgaria - 5,000
Romania - 530,000
Hungary - 200,000
Poland - 3,271,000
USSR - 1,050,000

Total Number Jews Killed - 5,721,500

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angcov.asp
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This source refutes the claim that is made by some Holocaust deniers that Red Cross documents support them.

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/international/red-cross/ftp.py?orgs/international/red-cross//300000-victims.response
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Raul Hilberg and Encyclopaedia Judaica, he consulted official Nazi documents in 1947 which indicated 750,000 by train. http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p133_Allen.html

Bones and the sand/ash mixture. http://m.livescience.com/44443-treblinka-archaeological-excavation.html

Let me get the others, stand by.
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The Stroop Report details the 'liquidation' of the Warsaw ghetto.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nowarsaw.html
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http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/zabecki.html This is accounts of those who lived in the town which regularly saw the trains along with brutal occurrances.

Most of what I know is from books and older publications that detail those who had access to Nazi records after the war.

How do you source books on 4chan because much of their techniques are from books as far as extermination methods.
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The Jäger Report is a tally sheet of actions by Einsatzkommando 3

The original.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110724012630/http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/jagerimages.html

The English translation.

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/DocJager.htm
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>>509605
Thanks, based anon
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>>509577
>How do you source books on 4chan because much of their techniques are from books as far as extermination methods.

With great diffculty, unfortunately. Unless you can persuade people to go to a library and read the book.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss
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>>509608

You're welcome, anon.
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Read The Hiding Place by Corrie Ten Boon, a 1971 publication, she survived a concentration camp. Her family hid the Jewish but got caught, most her family died. The book is very detailed about the lives of a concentration camp worker and the environment that spread death.

Do not confuse her with Misha Defonseca, a women who wrote a faked biography about being a holocaust survivor.
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This isn't the greatest source ever because I am not sure this guy's book is available online (except to purchase as an actual book).

It is useful as you will notice many Holocaust deniers like to make a big deal about there being a football team at Auschwitz, happily content to ignore the fact the football team was made up from the small allied POW camp at Auschwitz and ignore the fact the people from the football team arethemselves independent eyewitnesses to what happened there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2443817/Former-prisoner-war-96-remembers-playing-Auschwitz-football-league-return-Nazi-death-camp.html
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https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Bahr
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The International Tracing Service holds hundreds of thousands of pieces of paperwork relating to the Holocaust.

https://www.its-arolsen.org/en/archives/collections/index.html
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this shit is irrefutable, how do people still believe this didn't happen
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>this thread
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>>509468
>The camp was designed to kill starting with dehydration, sickness, starvation, injury, and hypothermia occuring on the train rides. Diabetics, small children, infants, and elderly were particularly susceptible to these methods.

This was not in the design. This was Irmfried Eberl just trying to stuff as many transports as he could into Treblinka regardless of actual capacity, and of course they died as a result.
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>>510043
people like to feel edgy
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>>509544
Eh, the document from 38? I think? I can't remeber what it used to say.
The one they use now is dumb, but the older one that I used to have went againts a major part of the holocaust narrative.
>>510043
>>510797
Because they catch wind of some inconsistencies that can be pointed out and get a little upset that they were not taught in school or they were never brought up without doing a little digging.
I used to be that way, and then I learned against the functionalism vs. Intentionalism debate.

I still think Hitler was a magnificent politian and had some viable complaints about jews in Germany.
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>>510804
>had some viable complaints about jews in Germany.
such as?
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>>510814
The average jew was middle class and above the average German.
They ran bars and smut shows in Germany and pried on the poorest citizens (they did this in America aswell with the blacks). They also were blamed for a series of mini crashes in the German economy that left people to off themselves.
And so on.
Well, here is a good interview with Ursula Haverbek, she brings up many factual and interesting points from the documentary book she is reading from. Unfortunately it's only available in German, but describes in great detail the German camps.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WPa_QeV9KDM
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>>510820
whether or not these accusations are true you really think they can justify institutionalized racism? If people are breaking the law then they should be arrested tried and imprisoned, regardless of race. If they aren't then what's the problem?
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>>510827
Jews are a race?
Or a religion?
Regardless, they don't belong in a German nation.
I personally am not an anti-semite, but they belong in their own country as it seems to be their greatest desire. Along with their history in Europe.
>>510825
>>>/pol/
Regardless of your "irony"
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>>510833
>Says a whole bunch of anti-semitic shit
>Gaiz! I'm not an anti-semite.
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>>510833
>they don't belong in a German nation
and why's that exactly? Because as far as I can tell they were german citizens.
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>>510844
nice, another trip for my filter
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>>510833
What if I told you that they fought for Germany in WWI at a higher rate than any other ethnic group?
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>>510838
How am I anti-Semitic?
I enjoy my jewish neighbors, as they are religious and devout people. But I don't hate them in any way.
I just don't think jews belong in a German nation.
>>510839
They intentionally seperated themselves from the German people, and have a poor history upon the people's of Europe.
I'm a state that is in Germany, sure they can be citizens. But in a German state, they cannot.
It would be in the interest of many people's for them to have their own nation.
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>>510852
Jews? Doubtful.
If you try and source the "200,000 jews!" Thing, it's half jews and quarter jews.
Regardles, jews do not belong in a German nation.
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>>510854
>>510839
A state that is in Germany*
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>>510854
>They intentionally seperated themselves from the German people
actually German jews in the interwar period were the most assimilated of all the european jewish communities.

Ironically all those who had intermarried and converted were still sent to the deathcamps
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>>510861
Well, there was quite a lot of incentive to do so isn't there?
While they assimilated, they never shed their identity I would presume.

They still seperated themselves from European** I mistyped, peoples intentionally and have a poor and abusive history.
Jews, Africans, Russians, do not belong in a German nation.
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>>510855
>Thing, it's half jews and quarter jews.
That's a distinction without a difference. They thought of themselves as Jews and so did Hitler's government for that matter.
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>>510870
I very much doubt that many of the people executed for having one jewish great grand parent thought of themselves as jews.
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>>510868
Nope! German Christians who had converted from Judaism were still treated as Jewish by the regime because they thought that these differences were more than a matter of faith.

Just like you.
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>>510870
The source is dubious at best and usually discarded during discussions.
They did not consider themselves jewish.
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>>510875
There is quite more of a difference than matter of faith regarding a jew.
They themselves believe it friend, I don't think they are a race, but certainly some ethnicity.
They even do genetic tests in Israel for admission.
>Oh noes a government doesn't want me in my somewhat harmful position
>let me hop skip jump and convert real quick
>but what to do about this curly hair
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I have nothing to add, but I'm enjoying this thread and feel like I've learned a bunch. Thanks OP!
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>>509499
I dont believe the entire kosher narrative but shit... Real non shit flinging discussions are good.
>>
not BASED OP, but I have read several decent books on the topic of Holocaust denial. Here are two that I recommend:

Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It? by multiple authors
http://www.amazon.com/Denying-History-Holocaust-Never-Happened/dp/0520260988/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1451979524&sr=1-1&keywords=denying+history
>Book is basically your Holocaust Denial 101 course.
>Tells how the holocaust denial movement started, who the key players and organizations are in the game.
>Tells what methods Holocaust deniers use to spin their web of lies and lure in the average /pol/tard
>Has a nice rebuttal section that explains why Holocaust deniers are wrong

Lying About Hitler by Richard Evans
http://www.amazon.com/Lying-About-Hitler-Richard-Evans/dp/0465021530
>Book is about one of the most known Holocaust deniers, David Irving and his lawsuit against an author who called bullshit on Irving's research.
>the book is written by the Historical expert on the topic appointed by the court.
>follows the trial of David Irving's lawsuit, along with showing how Irving and his fellow Holocaust denial "historians" arrive at their conclusions (i.e. purposeful mistranslated, cherrypicking outlying statistical numbers, using a single witness who claims x, and ignoring 15 other witnesses who claim y happened, and outright making shit up)

Both are excellent reads
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Only problem I have with holocaust revisionists is that they only focus on the Jew part. Nobody addresses homosexuals, gypsies, and the other undesirables that are said to have been killed.
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>>511139
They don't really have a bone to pick with those groups so why would they care about them?
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Pretty good video by a Jewish revisionist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYFpiCo1-g
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>>510876
So the Nuremberg laws enacted immediately as the nazis came to power are dubious?

Because that's the primary source for that. Now you're just getting lazy.
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>>511235
Your claim about
>Jews fought more out of any other group
Is not valid.
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>>509405
Does Action T4 count as part of the holocaust?
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>>511126
I was wondering where David Irving was going to show up

glad it wasn't a recommendation, there's hope for this board
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>>512391
He is actually a relatively good historian.
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>>512408

Are you talking about Irving or Rosen as a good historian?
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There should really be something in the sticky like this.

Not to stifle discussion of the Holocaust, but given the frequency with which poorly-sourced threads are posted "just asking questions" about the official narrative, it would be nice to have a readily available pile of sources to point then to without even leaving the board.

If, after that, they still have questions, then by all means they can make their threads.
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>this thread

Is everything /pol/ told me a lie, lads? They said it was the redpill of objective non-ideological undiscovered truth
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>>512456
>undiscovered

Undistorted*
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>>512456
Yes. Everything /pol/ told you was a lie, mate.

Mostly because holocaust denial on 4chan started out as a joke until retards caught wind and started taking it seriously.
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>>512451
This
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>>512443
Irving.
Despite his whole holocaust tantrum.
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>>512492

I'm not so sure. I had to read "The Destruction of Dresden" as part of something I once wrote up about the air war in general, and it's just bad. "Making shit up and then trying to ignore the letters of eyewitnesses who write you to say they never said what you quoted them in your book" level of bad.

I haven't comprehensively read through all of his stuff, but what I have hasn't exactly led me to conclude he's a good historian at all. At best, I'd say he's a good researcher, and even then, his obvious biases make me look at everything he "uncovers" with a lot of skepticism.
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>>511139
People also conveniently forget that "gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled, blacks" were a relatively insignificant fraction of the victims of the Holocaust while suspiciously leaving out the millions of Polish Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christian Slavs of various nationality, which comprised together only slightly less than the total amount of Jews killed.
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Mods please sticky this thread, I'm tired of the bait threads.
Otherwise, someone make a .txt of all this and mediafire it please. I would do it but I'm on a tablet.
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>>512636
There is this at least
https://desustorage.org/his/thread/509405/
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>>512708
Holocaust means the burning of something.

Those people are clearly not burned. It is
this historical naivety which has let the propaganda of the Holocaust to permeate unchecked.
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>>512724
So there was no holocaust because the semantics don't match up?

You realize that the Jews call it the Shoah, which means Catastrophe, right?
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>>512746
I don't suppose you have any evidence besides broad generalizations, do you?
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>>510882
please go back to /pol/
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>>512751
Bolshevik Revolution and the main financial instigators of WWII.
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>>512786
The Bolshevik Revolution was caused by German authorities that paid to ship and arm a sizable Russian Socialist minority that resided in exile in Germany, that, at the time, had the largest Socialist populace in Europe.

And, with WW2's "financial instigation," I think that the main financial motivation may have been Hitler's very short-sighted policy of taking out massive loans, and then forcing the exchange rates on his currency by invading countries and controlling the value of their currency.
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>>512786
>Bolshevik Revolution and the main financial instigators of WWII.
here we go again
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Here's a photo of generals Eisenhower and Patton at Ohrdruf. Patton wrote in his diary:

"When we began to approach with our troops, the Germans thought it expedient to remove the evidence of their crime. Therefore, they had some of the slaves exhume the bodies and place them on a mammoth griddle composed of 60-centimeter railway tracks laid on brick foundations. They poured pitch on the bodies and then built a fire of pinewood and coal under them. They were not very successful in their operations because there was a pile of human bones, skulls, charred torsos on or under the griddle which must have accounted for many hundreds. "

The attached photo is of the scene he described.

Of his visit, Eisenhower wrote to the Joint Chiefs of Staff:

"The visual evidence and the verbal testimony of starvation, cruelty and bestiality were so overpowering as to leave me a bit sick. In one room, where they were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said that he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to “propaganda.”"
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>>512817
The allies bombed the German infrastructure night and day.

There was nothing inherently wrong with detaining the Jews who had declared war against the Germans.

America likewise detained Japs, Germans, and Italians.

Disease spread through camps in WWII, that is were most deaths occurred.
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>>510820
>They ran bars and smut shows

Those monsters. running their own businesses and not coercing people to come into them.
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>>512834

>The allies bombed the German infrastructure night and day.

Yes, they sent their bombers all the way to Poland where they didn't have fighter cover to blow up the farms and roads when they could have been attacking industrial targets in western Germany.

>There was nothing inherently wrong with detaining the Jews who had declared war against the Germans.

Ha!

>America likewise detained Japs, Germans, and Italians.

And let them out for things like going to college and even joining the army. Clearly, they were comparable institutions.

>Disease spread through camps in WWII, that is were most deaths occurred.

Which is why the Germans needed crematoria for their camps that could incinerate the entire population in a week to a month! Disease was just that bad!


By the way, I'm being sarcastic in my responses. I would expect ordinary people to get that, but you don't seem so bright.
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>>512834
>There was nothing inherently wrong with detaining the Jews who had declared war against the Germans.
>implying a whole people can declare war on someone

Collectivism is a mental illness.

>America did it too!

The same people that denounce the holocaust denounce that too, you fucking retard.
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>>512838
The Germans would never stoop so low as serving and imbibing beer on their own!
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>>510820
>The average jew was middle class and above the average German.


Unthinkable. An ethnic group with wealth disparity obviously deserves genocide!
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>>512834
>detaining the jews was okay because detaining the japs was okay

what if neither was okay? also the "jews declaring war on germans" meme is my favourite
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>>512834
>America likewise detained Japs, Germans, and Italians.

Yes, and we don't have constant threads denying that either.
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NO NAZI. Ever. Ever. Was a Holocaust denier.

This one, simple fact shows that everything the modern deniers try to claim is a silly contrivance. From 1945 onwards, thousands of Nazis were captured and hundreds tried for their part in the Holocaust and other crimes against humanity. They tried to pretend they were someone else, they tried to pretend they didn't know what was happening, they tried to pretend they didn't have as much to do with it as others, they tried to claim they were just following orders and they tried to justify it as "the kind of thing that happens in war." But what NOT ONE of them EVER did was DENY it happened.

Even men on trial for their lives, in the full knowledge they would be hanged if convicted, never stood up in the courtroom and shouted "This is all a lie! This is a fabrication! There were no gas chambers and no crematoria! I'M BEING FRAMED!!!!" On the contrary, they gave great detail as to precisely how they had helped build and helped run the mechanics of mass murder, some of them even seeming proud of how they had achieved something so complex and on such a vast scale.
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>>511139
As a Jew myself it's fucking ridiculous how often we forget about the other 5 million people who where killed along with us. And it's not just ignorance, some of the people in my community get outright offended when you mention the gyspy or Slav deaths because they say it minimizes the Jewish suffering. I mean I love my people and all but this form of victim complex just gets too extreme and only brings hate down on and frankly on matters like this I can see where they're coming from
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>>512456
Generally, yeah. The whole red pill thing is just teenagers trying to feel special and enlightened by having contrarian views and frankly I would take anything they say with a grain of salt
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>>515818
How are Jews an inferior race? Frankly they've been nothing but successful in the modern era
Also, while the Weimar Republic made a bunch of dumb decisions, it wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Its rulers lead it into economic trouble but it's nowhere near close the destruction the Nazi regime brought onto itself. Even if the Jews did somehow cause all the problems the WR had I don't think mustering millions of Jewish and Slavic peasants is an appropriate response. "An eye for an eye" is a fucking retarted school of thought anyway, even if the Jews were that bad at least put the specific ones on trial and punish them appropriately
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>>512456
Yes. /pol/ wants to feel special by having some sort of special 'counter knowledge' that gives you the feeling of expertise, without actually putting in the work.

Putting in the work, btw, is one of the easiest ways to tell holocaust denial is bullshit.

The holocaust provoke profound and considered reactions in the fields of theology, philosophy, international law, historiography, etc. etc.

I myself have used Christopher Browning's work on detailed study of the implementation of the holocaust, for statistical insight into other atrocities. He provided an overview of how people would conduct mass murder, statistically, based on a supposedly fictitious event, that then proved useful for studying actual events.

Meanwhile, the only bigger story than the Holocaust would be the Holocaust being a lie. It would be, without a doubt, the largest and most complex scheme in human history.

But Holocaust deniers have produced no great works of philosophy discussing the implications of this, the vast power of organization previously unimaginable, or the nature of evil in light of this. There's been no debates or research among them about how this conspiracy happened, or who was responsible for it. It's literally the biggest story in modern history, and they don't feel it's worth actually studying.

There's been no works of art exploring it, no autobiography about how they've been effected by it.

They have produced nothing. They tell the most astonishing tale in human history, and then they shrug and move on and don't care about it in the least, beyond braying like a jackass about 'muh holohoax.'
>>
Have /pol/ been dealt with the most severe of blows? Well they finally leave this board forever?
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>>516895

No. They'll just scream JIDF shilling.
>>
Why is freely discussing holocaust punished by law in many countries? What's the problem with discussing history and asking questions? Are there other historical events you can be punished for talking about?

It's actually the only thing that bothers me in the whole story.
I can tell "gravity doesn't exist" and spouting bullshit and be considered and idiot and go free.
I can tell "we were created by god 4000 years ago and this evolution bullshit is stupid" and be considered an idiot and go free.
Why if I tell "holocaust didn't happen" I'd be fined and have jail time?
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>>517195

>Why is freely discussing holocaust punished by law in many countries? What's the problem with discussing history and asking questions?

Because many countries don't have the same American (I'm assuming you're American, anyway) enshrining of free speech values. Causing offense, disturbing the public order are considered ills that suppression and censorship are perfectly valid tools to use.

>Are there other historical events you can be punished for talking about?

Sure there are, although which events varies by where you live.
>>
Why did allies lie at nuremberg trial with the lampshade, shrunken head and soap bars? Why was it shown as proof while it's been proved all of this was bullshit? Why did they need to invent proofs for a trial that happened a couple of years after the facts, with I'm sure a shitload of proofs, papers, orders, lists etc... from the camps.
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>>510043
The questing isn't whether it's happened, it's whether the narrative is entirely correct. Not even /pol/ denies that lots of Jewish people died as a direct result of the actions of the German government. They're holocaust revisionists, not "deniers".
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>>517223

I've seen people in /pol/ in all apparent seriousness, claim, among other things (Please note that not all claims were from the same posts or posters)

>Fewer than 100,000 people died in the holocaust.
>The deaths were for factors that were completely outside of the control of Nazi Germany, and were not intentional
>Most of the deaths were caused by Allied strategic bombing
>The Jewish population decline in Europe was due to immigration to Israel and the U.S.
>Hitler really intended to relocate the Jews away and it was only Britain's fault that he didn't.
>There were no gassings
>There were no cremations
>Most camp deaths were caused by fighting between the Jews and Slavs kept in the camps.
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>>517195
>Why is freely discussing holocaust punished by law in many countries?
It is not.
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>>517245
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
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>>517240
oh and lets not forget that they say these things while at the same time claiming that the holocaust was completely justified
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>>517261
Out of those countries, show me those "many" where freely discussing the holocaust is punished by law.
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>>517270
Did you even read it? All of theme except for about 5 explicitly punish people for "denial, minimalisation ,or trivialization" of the Holocaust, and the rest punish people for denying anything considered to be a war crime.
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>>517293
Oh I thought when you said you cannot have a free discussion you meant an actual discussion, which you certainly can, not retarded memespouting holocaust denial.
>>
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>>517317
>>
bamp
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>>512456

/pol/ is pretty much the stormfront containment board
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>>517337
No, you got rused son.
>>
>>518731
The only people who claim the holocaust happened on /pol/ ARE stormfags.
>H-H-Hitler killed all teh joos

The best way to disprove the tinfoilocaust is to tear into the claims themselves so I hope to make an autistic post cross referencing all the evidence you had to post to "BTFO you guys"
>>
>>509527
>In 1946
In 1946 the estimated death-toll of Majdanek was 1.5-1.7m people. Todays estimation is 78k. Just to show how much they were willing to inflate the numbers.
>>
Serious question: Just how big is a pile of three million dead people?
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>>517221
>Why did allies lie at nuremberg trial with the lampshade, shrunken head and soap bars?

As far as I am aware the soap bars and shrunken heads were shown at Nuremberg by one prosecutor, Thomas Dodd, as a minor point. This whole "The Allies" did it as though it was a collective decision by all the allied nations is silly. And so is the idea that this somehow refutes the entire Nuremberg trial, which had mountains of evidence behind the prosecution, or indeed the entire historical study of the Holocaust.

As far as I know (and I will be happily proved wrong by a source without the above point being incorrect) human lampshades were never shown in the Nuremberg trials at all and where a specific allegation made against one person, Isla Koch, in a separate trial.

The existence of soap made from Holocaust victims, or lampshades or a couple of shrunken heads from Buchanwald is still a matter of historical debate by the way is has not "been proven wrong" and even if they had been did this does not suddenly, by magic, overwhelm all of the other evidence and prove it wrong.
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>>519603

The estimates made in the post you replied to were from population figures. They did not come from adding together the death count from individual camps.
>>
>>509527
The number still stands and is slightly higher but the per country totals have been adjusted. For example, the new total for Denmark is 108 Jewish casualties.

This is due to the fact that the Danish Jewish community was exceptionally well integrated and they were evacuated to Sweden before the Nazis could get them.

Fun Fact: Physicist Nils Bohr was among them.
>>
>>519626
>by the way is has not "been proven wrong"
No offense, I dont give a rats ass if youre a history student or a historian but this is not how the legal system works. People are innocent until proven guilty. People dont have to prove that someone was wrongfully accused. Its the other way round. And considering the farce the allies pulled with Majdanek I have a hard time believing any of the so called evidence.

If youre willing to overestimate the amount of victims by 2000% and present that figure as evidence in front of a fucking court, then that should damage your credibility beyond recognition. It doesnt matter if the Nazis killed 50k or 50m, the act it self is what mattered. It was a despicable thing to do and they could have lead the investigation by simply pointing out the nature of the crimes.

But if a group of people is willing to blatantly lie then their evidence becomes worth less than dirt. And thats what the allies did: they lied. Because claiming that 1.5-1.7m people were killed (in Majdanek), while lacking any evidence to support this claim, is nothing but exactly that. A blatant lie.
>>
>>519679
In case you didn't notice, this came immediately on the heels of WWII. People were still picking up the pieces that your spiritual liege broke.
>>
>>519626
>which had mountains of evidence behind the prosecution
Care to give a few, please ?
>>
>>517195
>Why is freely discussing holocaust punished by law in many countries?

I don't think it is a good idea that any country interferes with freedom of speech, however since you are asking for the reason, the reason is that most of those countries have links with the Holocaust and are concerned that Holcaust denial is a tool of Neo-Nazis.

By the way, the two biggest English speaking Western countries, the UK and the US have no laws against Holcaust denial.

>It's actually the only thing that bothers me in the whole story.

This sort of thinking has no place in historical discussion at all. If France decided claiming 2+2=5 was silly and banned it, then it would not make 2+2=5.

The decisions of individual countries in reagrd to their laws has no relevance to the historical evidence.
>>
>>519692
What's with the attitude? He raises a good point. Why not just point at the crimes instead of inventing shit like shrunken heads and jew lampshades?
>>
>>519679

It is you who doesn't grasp how trials work or how the study of history works.

If someone is convicted of murder based on overwhelming evidence one piece of evidence being insubstantial does not negate all the other evidence.
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>>519692
What exactly is it youre saying? That blatantly lying is a stressful situation is justified? That knowingly publishing propaganda figures is justified?

You dont fucking say that X were killed when the actual amount was X/20. Because if the figures are this different, then you sure as hell cant claim that you missed a handful of clues. We arent talking about an overestimation of 50-100%. We are talking about an overestimation of TWO THOUSAND PERCENT.

Providing something like that as evidence is goddamn outrageous. If you provide something as evidence then you better make fucking sure that it sticks/is true.

>>519728
>one piece of evidence being insubstantial does not negate all the other evidence
Outstanding reading comprehension skills.
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>>519702

I suggest you look at the first dozen or so posts in the thread and start from there.
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>>519728
Fake evidence can be a reason for a trial to be lost on a technicality in most countries. If there were such overwhelming evidence, why the soap and lampshade?
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>>519737
>Outstanding reading comprehension skills.

?

Are you referring to you ranting and raving about lying with no evidence? Like I say neither the soap or the heads have been proven wrong. Nor is one prosectuor offering them as one minor piece of evidence something theat disproves the rest of the evidence.
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>>519752
>I say neither the soap or the heads have been proven wrong
They dont need to be proven wrong. They need to be proven to have actually existed.

>Nor is one prosectuor offering them as one minor piece of evidence something theat disproves the rest of the evidence
It still shows that a) evidence might have been faked b) evidence might have been created out of thin air (see Majdanek) c) there is a chance that this applies to all evidence.

I get that you dont have the slightest clue how legal investigations work but making forging evidence can kill your trial in almost any civilized nation. Which is just further proof that the Nuremberg trials werent actual trials. They were a circus show that were not handled like a legal process would.
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>>519763
>Testimonies aren't evidence,

Where did you get that idea from?

>I mean actual documents, orders, registers and all

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/docs_swi.php?DI=1&text=doc_anal

https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Nuremberg-Trial-Film-Nazi-Concentration-Camps

>>519774

>They dont need to be proven wrong.

Actually if you are making an accusation of lying rather than merely making a claim that one piece of evidence not being substantial enough proves all of the other evidence wrong then the burden of proof falls on you.

>It still shows that a) evidence might have been faked b) evidence might have been created out of thin air (see Majdanek) c) there is a chance that this applies to all evidence.

No it doesn't. And you simply asserting that to be the case does not make that the case.
>>
>>519814
>Actually if you are making an accusation of lying
Another example of your outstanding reading comprehension skills. You keep spouting that the "soap or the heads have been proven wrong". In reality they have to be proven to exist to be used as evidence in a trial.

I simply implied that lying about one thing drastically increases the probability of them lying about many other things. A liar cant be trusted. Because if he lied once then its pretty clear that there is an agenda that is supposed to be pushed.

If there wasnt then you wouldnt have an incentive to lie or present assumptions and half-truths as facts.

>No it doesn't
From a legal standpoint it does. But as I already pointed out, you dont have the slightest clue how a legal process usually works. Neither do you understand that a perpetrator is innocent until proven guilty. The point is that the Nuremberg trials might have been clattered with lies, as can be seen when looking at the outrageous overestimation of the victims. And dont you dare to say that an estimation of 1.7m dead people is 'a minor piece of a evidence'. The death count was the selling point of the entire trials.

Pointing out the Nazis crimes would have been sufficient. But no, they had to present fake evidence and made up figures. Knowing all of this I am not even surprised that there are nut jobs out there who deny the Holocausts existence and arent questioning the legitimacy of evidence like I am.
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>>519814
>Where did you get that idea from?
Because witnesses are unreliable, can lie, and have interests. If testimonies were evidence, I could just go to a court and testify that you're a rapist and have you jailed.

Also, I don't see any proof of the holocaust, gaz chamber and all in the links you gave. It's about castration by x-ray experimentations. The movie shows people who are very slim, it could be due to poor treatments of course, but it could be due to camps being less provided for because of war being lost and bombings, and typhus as often claimed by revisionists.
There got to be registers of prisoners sent to gaz chambers. How did they do to keep track of prisoners still alive? There got to be a real, tangible evidence other than an x ray experimentation and a movie that could be out of context.
Also, I don't see a evidence file group for camps/gaz chambers in the list on your list. Why is it?
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>>519870
>I simply implied that lying about one thing drastically increases the probability of them lying about many other things.

There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension skills.

You have not shown anyone to have lied and the burden of proof falls on you if you want to make a claim anyone has lied.

>>519897

>Because witnesses are unreliable, can lie, and have interests. If testimonies were evidence, I could just go to a court and testify that you're a rapist and have you jailed.

Oh dear. Witness testimonies are the backbone of pretty much every criminal case.
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>>519623
Can someone answer this please?
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>>519907
>>You have not shown anyone to have lied and the burden of proof falls on you if you want to make a claim anyone has lied.
And what exactly is it when you claim for 1.7m people to have died in a single death camp (at Majdanek) without any evidence to back it up? What is it if not a blatant lie?

If the actual death-count was 5% of that, then there is no way in hell that they had any evidence to back up their claim. They either rolled a pair of dice or threw a dart. But that estimation sure as hell wasnt based on real world evidence. So I ask you again: what is this if not a blatant lie to further your agenda?
>>
>>519928

Could you show me all the sources you are using for this so I can discuss them properly?
>>
>>512851
Only if they're non-white!

(Better watch out Asians)
>>
>>519907
>Witness testimonies are the backbone of pretty much every criminal case.
No they arent. They are what opens an investigation but not what makes it a case. A testimony is worthless unless you have actual evidence to back up your claim because its easier to fake than anything else.

>>519934
If you dont even know about the death camp of Majdanek then what the hell are you even arguing with me? Hell, the figures are even metioned on a website as liberal as Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdanek_concentration_camp#Death_toll
>The Soviets initially overestimated the number of deaths, claiming at the Nuremberg Trials in July 1944 that there were no fewer than 400,000 Jewish victims, and the official Soviet count was of 1.5 million victims of different nationalities,[24]

Youre a waste of my goddamn time.
>>
>>519943
> They are what opens an investigation but not what makes it a case

Are you seriously claiming no one has ever been convicted on the weight of eyewitness testimony alone?
>>
>>519943
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdanek_concentration_camp#Death_toll

There is nothing in this source that proves anyone lied or the Holcaust did not happen.
>>
>>519943
>No they arent. They are what opens an investigation but not what makes it a case

Sorry lad but you have no idea what you are talking about in the slightest.
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>>519968
>Are you seriously claiming no one has ever been convicted on the weight of eyewitness testimony alone?
I highly doubt that any judge from a civilized country has ever convicted someone because a group of people claimed for someone else to have done something without them being able to provide evidence for him to have committed said crime.

Why? Because a testimony doesnt become valuable just because 10 people claim for it to be true. Its still worthless because all of them could be lying. But I welcome you to prove me wrong and show me a few trials that convicted a person because of nothing but testimonies.

No evidence, no weapon, no motive etc. Just the testimonies.

>>519976
>There is nothing in this source that proves anyone lied
Refer to >>519928

If I claim that X people died, while in reality it has only been X/20, then what is it if not a lie? Because apparently I just presented evidence and an estimation without anything to back up either.

>or the Holcaust did not happen.
Jesus Christ you have some severe mental disorder.

>>519987
See above. Youre welcome to prove me wrong and provide examples of legal cases.
>>
The true causes of the holocaust made it completely justified: saving the germany economy. Its why jews were allowed to lave the country with no money.
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>>519999
>>>519976 (You)
>>There is nothing in this source that proves anyone lied
>Refer to >>519928

That is your own post. It is not a piece of evidence anyone lied it doesn't even have a citation.

Okay, let's rehash a bit here. The study of hisotry is based on looking at primary evidence and then assessing that primary evidence to come to a conclusion about what happened in the past.

It does not involve specualtion piled on argumentation piled on accusation piled on a claim if one piece of evidence is not solid enough every other piece of evidence is wrong.

It does not involve claiming thousands upon thousands of eyewitnesses are liars based on not understanding how criminal trials work.

It does not involve claiming because the Soviets made an overestimation of the death count at any given death camp every population study done, ever, ever, ever are all wrong.

Here is a small fraction of the primary evidence.

>>509405
>>509411
>>509417
>>509424
>>509437
>>509443
>>509454
>>509464
>>509527
>>509544
>>509605
>>509690
>>509704
>>
>>519570
I'm sure we'll be waiting forever.
>>
So serious question here, what are the numbers for jews deliberately killed by nazis for ideological purposes.

What's the story behind the 4 million number, and what's the story behind the 6 million number?
Just curious about the bias and research behind all of it, because obviously very few people research this stuff without an already clear image in their minds.
>>
>>520039
>I'm sure you're aware of the events transpiring in Oregon.
I am not since I am not American.

>solely on the 11 year later testimony of a family member who was thirteen years old at the time if the events in question
Which seems highly unlikely. This rather sounds like there was already evidence, or at least heavy indications that linked them to the crimes, and that his testimony ended up sealing the deal. In which case the testimony was a part of the investigation, not its backbone. Could you provide the transcript for further information regarding the trial because I am pretty sure that youre blatantly lying to support your claim.

A testimony alone is worthless for a very simple reason: human nature. If a testimony alone would be enough to send someone to jail, then there would be a lot more convicts. A testimony isnt evidence, it just adds to it and paints a bigger and more comprehensive picture.

>>520052
>That is your own post. It is not a piece of evidence anyone lied it doesn't even have a citation.
In 1945 the Allies claimed that 1.5m people died at Majdanek
In 2005 the estimated amount of victims is adjusted to 78k

How did they come up with the figure of 1.5m if todays estimation is 78k? And after you answered that question: How is presenting this figure at a trial not blatantly lying about evidence (the figure of 1.5m) since (apparently) they lacked anything to back it up. Unless the 1.422m remains suddenly vanished over the years.

I wont even bother to with the rest of your post because you keep evading the central point and even accused me of denying the Holocausts existence after me (specifically) pointing out that I all I do is question the legitimacy of the evidence and not the existence of the event itself. Get your shit together. English isnt a foreign language to you so you shouldnt have that much trouble comprehending simple English sentences.
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>>520089
>In 1945 the Allies claimed that 1.5m people died at Majdanek
>In 2005 the estimated amount of victims is adjusted to 78k
>How did they come up with the figure of 1.5m if todays estimation is 78k?

See >>509527
>>
>>520089

Not anyone you've responded to, but the general Soviet M.O. for calculating camp deaths was to look at the capacity of the crematoria, figure out how long the camp was in operation, work out the math for how many bodies could be incinerated, and then present that as the number killed.

It's the same way they came up with "Around 4 million" for Auschwitz.
>>
>>509527
Again, evading the central point.

This is the last time I will respond to you since you seem to suffer from some severe mental disability. WHERE did the EVIDENCE for 1.5 MILLION VICTIMS come from, when 60 years later said figure is ADJUST to 78 THOUSAND?

WHERE did the EVIDENCE for the REMAINING 1.422 MILLION VICTIMS come from? Because standing in front of a judge/court, claiming that 1.5m people died when I have NOTHING to back up that claim, is nothing but a lie to further an agenda. Its not proven to be correct. Its not a fact that you can backup with evidence. Its an estimation that might as well have been made up yet you present it like a fact at a trial.

>>520113
Thanks. So it was an estimation based on assumptions which then was presented in trial. If thats not blatantly lying to further an agenda then I dont know what is.
>>
>>520089
> This rather sounds like there was already evidence, or at least heavy indications that linked them to the crimes,

No more so than there is linking the Nazis to the Holocaust.

>There was undeniably a fire.
>The family never denied setting the fire only that the fire was set with malicious intent
>malicious intent was proven with the testimony of said family member

>The Jews were undeniably sent to camps where they died
>The Nazis never denied sending Jews to camps where they died
>malicious intent was proven through eyewitness testimony from countless inmates, and Nazi witnesses
>>
>>520126
I asked you to provide the transcript, not to green text. But I guess your inability to do so also proves me right.
>>
>>520132
Look it up yourself, you're the one claiming I'm misrepresenting the facts of the case.
>>
>>520121
>This is the last time I will respond to you since you seem to suffer from some severe mental disability. WHERE did the EVIDENCE for 1.5 MILLION VICTIMS come from, when 60 years later said figure is ADJUST to 78 THOUSAND?

Okay well let me put it another way.

I am not an expert on the Majdenek death camp. Neither are you at my guess.

Could you possibly provide some primary evidence and the secondary literature you have looked at that in order for me to properly assess the claims you are making that all of the sources given here....

>>509405
>>509411
>>509417
>>509424
>>509437
>>509443
>>509454
>>509464
>>509527
>>509544
>>509605
>>509690
>>509704

... are inaccurate based on squeaking and shrieking and squealing "why, why why, why why, why why".

I would be delighted if you could provide me some serious citations about the estimates made of the death count at Madjenek so we could have a good look at them and actually discuss them.
>>
My great grandfather died in Auschwitz so there is that.
>>
>>520160
Those guard towers will kill yah.
>>
>>520148
You are talking about two people whos 'crimes' have caused major damage to federal property. Even if they claim for it to have been an accident, thats potential evidence that can be used against them. It physically exists and it can be proven that the fire started on their land and made its way from there.

How the fuck is that case based on a testimony? Its based on physically existing evidence and the only thing the testimony does is paint a bigger picture and helps with the motive.
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>>520243
>did not warrant prosecution and dropped all the charges.

Did you miss that part of the sentence?

>The Hammonds later found out a boot print and a tire tracks were found near one of the many fires.
>No matching boots or tires were found in the Hammonds home or on their property.

Actually take the time to READ the facts don't just go off half-cocked.
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>>509411
>.The stoves were 1.10m high, 55cm wide and 55cm long
> The stove opening was oval, with a diameter of about 25cm

Fucking how?
Also, nice eywitnesses.
>>
>>520266
>Did you miss that part of the sentence?
No I didnt. Just because something doesnt warrent prosecution it doesnt mean that no evidence existed. You claimed that the entire process and conviction were based on a testimony. I have already proven you wrong in an earlier post so this is just adding to it.

>(n) During the trial proceedings, Federal Court Judge Michael Hogan did not allow time for certain testimonies and evidence into the trail which would exonerate the Hammonds. Federal prosecuting attorney, Frank Papagni, was given full access for six days. He had ample time to use any evidence or testimony that strengthened the demonization of the Hammonds.
>He had ample time to use any evidence or testimony
>>
>>520272
Are you kidding me?
>Just because something doesnt warrent prosecution it doesnt mean that no evidence existed.
>evidence doesn't warrant prosecution
>this some how means in your mind that the evidence was used to justify prosecution

>You claimed that the entire process and conviction were based on a testimony.
Wrong I claimed the CONVICTION was based on testimony.
There was never any doubt that the family set a fire and there was never any doubt that said fire spread to government land . What needed to be proven was INTENT. Intent was proven on the back of the eye-witness testimony not on physical evidence.
>>
>>520268
nice infographic disproving that entire website anon

you're such a redpilled freethinker :^)
>>
>>509424
>>509424
>Goebbels' """"""diary""""""
>written by typewriter, not by hand
>not even writen on the kind of paper used at the time
>'found' by the soviets during the cold war, the most honest people on earth :^)
>historically innacurate
>contradicts itself on some passages
>>
>>520268

That appears to be an "infographic" rather than refutation of eyewitness sources.
>>
>>520287
>evidence doesn't warrant prosecution
Most evidence requires interpretation. Stop talking about the legal process when you dont have the slightest clue what the fuck youre talking about. Not every piece of evidence is an arrow pointing to the defendant. Whether or not the evidence is enough for a sentence depends on the interpretation of the judge (or in case of your third world legal system a mentally handicapped jury).

>Wrong I claimed the CONVICTION was based on testimony.
Which is wrong again. It wasnt. It was based on evidence and the testimony added to it. Besides, I literally asked you to
>But I welcome you to prove me wrong and show me a few trials that convicted a person because of nothing but testimonies.
After you claimed
>Are you seriously claiming no one has ever been convicted on the weight of eyewitness testimony alone?

And that isnt the case here. The person was convicted because a testimony added to the evidence in the hands of the state. Without physical evidence you DONT HAVE A CASE, which means that its impossible to base a conviction on testimony alone you fucking mongrel.
>>
>>520306
>written by typewriter, not by hand
Is there some rule I'm unaware of that demands a diary be written by hand?
>>
>>520306

Oh I see.

You seem to be laboring under the assumption Goebbel's diary has been disproven as being a solid source based on a bit of greentexting.
>>
>>520320
It's difficult to attest its authenticity.

>>520321
Prove it's the real thing, then.
>>
>>520317

Ok, the guy who posted the Soviet M.O. for calculation again: Please stop drawing a line between "Testimony" on one hand and "Evidence" on the other.

Evidence:

>n. every type of proof legally presented at trial (allowed by the judge) which is intended to convince the judge and/or jury of alleged facts material to the case.


Testimony is a form of evidence. You might not think it's particularly trustworthy or weighty evidence, but it is in fact evidence if it's about information relevant to the case at hand.


http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=671


I don't know where you're from, but look up your country's rules of evidence. Bet you anything that most of it deals with how people testify at trials.
>>
>>520268
>no sources
>>
>muh eyewitnesses

How about these ones?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtlPlZGvgY0
>>
>>520346
>Testimony is a form of evidence. You might not think it's particularly trustworthy or weighty evidence, but
And in the trial they SPECIFICALLY presented EVIDENCE AND TESTIMONIES.

Not even gonna start on the fact that the destroyed land PHYSICALLY EXISTS, which means that the conviction wasnt solely based on TESTIMONIES. Why do you feel the need to tell me about the definition of English terms when you yourself lack the ability to comprehend basic English sentences?

He claimed that there are people who got convicted based on TESTIMONIES ALONE. I even quote that part in my last post. As a result I presented plenty of evidence that the case he chose as example does not fulfill this criterion. So unless he is able to provide legal evidence that there have been people who got convicted based on nothing but testimonies I stand to be corrected.

But I hardly doubt that such a case exists simply because testimonies alone are worthless.
>>
>>520317
You disingenuous faggot.

>A testimony is worthless unless you have actual evidence to back up your claim because its easier to fake than anything else.
This was your original claim.

What evidence was there in this case other than the testimony of the eyewitness in question to support the claim that the Hammond family set a fire with the aim of maliciously burning down government property?

Let's not get distracted though from the ACTUAL topic of discussion. Since you now seem to acknowledge the validity of eyewitness testimony to buttress state evidence that does not directly support prosecution, do you still claim that the eyewitness testimony which led to convictions at Nuremberg was invalid and should not be considered evidence?
>>
>>520360
Just like the holocaust ',;^)
>>
>>520370
>Not even gonna start on the fact that the destroyed land PHYSICALLY EXISTS, which means that the conviction wasnt solely based on TESTIMONIES

So sort of like how the concentration camps PHYSICALLY EXIST and Nuremberg convictions weren't solely based on TESTIMONIES?
>>
>>520330

>tortured Germans and paid Slavs

Cite your citations for "tortured" and "paid" please.

Note your citations have to relate to specific witnesses and how they were "tortured" and "paid" rather than some bit of /pol/ tomfoolery.
>>
>>520382
>not knowing that the Nuremberg trials were a kangaroo court

When you read some of this shit it gets really apparent the true nature of that thing.

Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 1
Article 19
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/imtconst.asp#art19
>The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value.

Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 1
Article 21
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/imtconst.asp#art21
>The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.
>>
>>520370

No, they present evidence Testimony is a form of evidence. They are not separate things.

>Why do you feel the need to tell me about the definition of English terms when you yourself lack the ability to comprehend basic English sentences?

You misused a term of art, and especially when you're decrying people for not understanding how the legal process works, you should really get your verbiage right. Don't throw stones in that glass house of yours, or people might throw back.

> So unless he is able to provide legal evidence that there have been people who got convicted based on nothing but testimonies I stand to be corrected.

Wrong. I am not defending his claim that people have been convincted solely on eyewitness testimony. I am attacking your claim that "testimony" is not "evidence".

Please learn to read.
>>
>>520343
>It's difficult to attest its authenticity.
Not at all.
If the entries coincide with events from the subjects life then odds are it is authentic.

Especially when the diary in question is 29 volumes long.
>>
>>520407
It was printed in glass plates, not the original testable paper.
Tell me what proves it's authentic.
>>
>>520381
>Nuremberg convictions weren't solely based on TESTIMONIES?

Did you just claim that the prosecution case at the Nuremberg trials was purely based on eyewitness testimony using nothing more than your own anger that you got destroyed in the argument that eyewtness testimonies are evidence accepted in every land in the world?

They had entire rooms of paperwork evidence as well.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007271
>>
>>520381
What are you even aiming at? I neither doubted the existence of concentration camps, death camps or the Holocaust. I simply doubted the legitimacy of the evidence. And that claim has already been proven right by them claiming that 1.5m people died at Majdanek.

Also: I wasnt the guy who started the debate regarding testimonies, I simply added to it. But I guess its too hard to you to tell different posters apart. Which is funny since I even multi quoted on my post.

Point still stands, though. Testimonies alone are worthless. If physical evidence didnt exist people could have claimed to have been gassed an no one would have been convicted. Why? Because they wouldnt have been able to prove it. Since physical evidence existed they had a case, though. Again, the testimony wouldnt be the backbone of the conviction because it alone would mean nothing. Its the physical evidence that decides whether youre convicted or not. The physical evidence is what turns it into a trial, not someone accusing someone of having done something.

>>520397
>No, they present evidence Testimony is a form of evidence. They are not separate things.
Yet transcripts mention them as separate things which implies that there were a) testimonies and b) physically existing evidence or else there wouldnt be a point writing out both terms.

> I am attacking your claim that "testimony" is not "evidence".
Hilarious because you know exactly what I mean, yet still need me to type out 'physically existing evidence' or 'physical evidence' instead of simply saying evidence.
>>
>>520396

None of this is evidence relating to specific witnesses being "tortured" and "paid".

Try again please.
>>
>>520418
I'm sorry but didn't you originally claim that it was not even written on the kind of paper used at the time?

Now the diary was printed on glass plates?
Which is it?
Or is it both?
>>
>>520409
There's actually another image disproving a lot of these articles had no source of ever existing and that they were made by a bunch of neo nazis. Of course I seen it from lefty pol.
>>
>>520421
>Did you just claim that the prosecution case at the Nuremberg trials was purely based on eyewitness testimony

No I did not.
>>
>>520433
Post it, please.
>>
>>520426
>I neither doubted the existence of concentration camps, death camps or the Holocaust.
>I simply doubted the legitimacy of the evidence.
So you believe the Holocaust happened despite the fact that you by your own words doubt the legitimacy of the evidence?

>Testimonies alone are worthless
http://www.totalcriminaldefense.com/qa/is-eyewitness-testimony-sufficient-for-conviction/
What now?
>>
>>520426

>Hilarious because you know exactly what I mean, yet still need me to type out 'physically existing evidence' or 'physical evidence' instead of simply saying evidence.

So, I'm apparently supposed to read your mind and figure out what you meant on something other than what you typed? Especially when dealing with a matter of law, which can include such finely hair-splitting differences such as something being a "hearsay exception" vs "not being hearsay" (even though it's an out of court statement being offered to prove the veracity of something mentioned in the statement)


At the very least, get off your damn high horse with the lecturing of "how trials work".
>>
>>509443
They didn't talk about jewish extermination, though.
>>
>>520409

Last time I checked the scholarly estimate for Jewish deaths in the Holocaust was 5-6 million and and including non-Jews it is 10-11 million.

Are you sure you are suffering from aphophenia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
>>
>>520456
>So you believe the Holocaust happened despite the fact that you by your own words doubt the legitimacy of the evidence?
How stupid do you have to be to not tell these two apart?

>Doubting legitimacy
Allies claim that 1.5m people died at Majdanek
-> I doubt the legitimacy of this evidence.
-> Do I therefore doubt that no one died?
-> No I dont because I acknowledge that 78k died

Wow, that was easy. So now I doubted the legitimacy of the evidence yet still miraculously acknowledge the existence of the Holocaust and the war crimes committed by the Nazis.

>What now?
I dont know. I see a forum post. Doesnt look like evidence to me. Shall I create an account and post 'No'? Besides, most of these posts claim that
>Lots of convictions are based on eyewitness testimony.
Thats not the same as a conviction that is SOLELY based on testimony.

>>520461
>So, I'm apparently supposed to read your mind
No, youre supposed to add up two numbers and come to the conclusion that a person who split evidence and testimony means that evidence in this case stands for physically existing evidence. But it seems to be a common problem among Americans. Most of you are also too stupid to decipher simple on letter typos.
>>
>>520454

I'm not aware this testimony has been cited at any point in this thread. Could you point me to where it has been please rather than making the obvious fallacy that highlighting a small section of a newspaper article you have cherrypicked magically, by some piece of sorcery, means that thousands and thousands of eyewitness testimonies are wrong.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division
>>
>>520487
>http://www.totalcriminaldefense.com/qa/is-eyewitness-testimony-sufficient-for-conviction/


> Now, all that they are left with is eyewitness testimony.

>Yes, it is often enough for a conviction.

>Yes, the same as IF someone stole your purse, and you IDed him, but they/police did not find your purse.

>A conviction can enter against your husband based on eyewitness testimony. The prosecutor still has to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and his lawyer should attack the credibility of the witnesses by vigorous cross examination, and certainly make a motion to exclude witnesses, by having each testify outside the presence of the other witnesses.

>No, youre supposed to add up two numbers and come to the conclusion that a person who split evidence and testimony means that evidence in this case stands for physically existing evidence. But it seems to be a common problem among Americans. Most of you are also too stupid to decipher simple on letter typos.

The conclusion that you're a boorish, ignorant demagogue, intent on displaying a sense of superiority seems far more likely.
>>
>>520409
The majority of these refer to the roughly six million jews that lived in the Russian Empire, which is an objective number that just so happens to coincide roughly with the number of jews that died in the holocaust. Are you one of those retards who thinks the number 6 million was picked because it had mystical qualities? Go back to >>>/pol/ regardless.
>>
>>520498
I am still waiting for legal precedence. Not some crook forum posts made by a bunch of drop out attorneys who want to make money. Whats next? Youre going to advice me to get a diagnosis from an online doctor?
>>
>>520436

So what did you mean by this >>520381?
>>
>>520487
>I dont know. I see a forum post. Doesnt look like evidence to me. Shall I create an account and post 'No'?

you didn't actually LOOK at the link I provided did you?
That's not a forum. You can't create an account and say "no".
That is a website where people ask for legal advice from defense attorneys.

The woman asked
>Is eyewitness testimony sufficient for a conviction?
>The prosecution attempted to use DNA evidence to convict my husband but the results came back as inconclusive. Now, all that they are left with is eyewitness testimony.

All they have left is eyewitness testimony.
The attorneys on this website seem to believe that this is potentially sufficient evidence for a prosecutor to attain a conviction.

You on the other hand disagree.
Who should we believe, you or the attorneys?
>>
>>520512
Exactly what it says that the concentration camps exist as physical evidence and that the Nuremberg convictions weren't based solely on eyewitness testimonies.
>>
>>520515
>Those numbers fluctuate a lot

No they don't stormtard.

Kill yourself.
>>
>>520509
>>520498
>The states case is weaker without something else tying him to the crime but yes eye witness testimony in the past has been enough to convict someone depending on the jury. Get an experienced attorney. If this is an Eastern WA state case contact me. I travel throughout Eastern WA for all types of criminal offenses.
Top yey. Call me please

>Eyewitness testimony can convict someone, even though there are many scientific studies that show how unreliable and mistaken most eyewitness testimony actually is. You need a lawyer.

>Without knowing more facts one can not predict a specific outcome with any certainty. However, DNA evidence is not required to secure a conviction. People were convicted without any forensic evidence at all for many, many years. The prosecution must convince the fact finder, be it a jury or a judge in a bench proceeding, that there is relevant evidence which establishes beyond a reasonable doubt the elements of the charged crime exist and that the crime was committed by the accused.One way of doing so is with an eye witness to the event(s), provided the eye witness is deemed credible by the finder of fact.

Hey, at least I specified that the person should be convicted by a judge. So I can backpedal and ignore any decision made by a jury since its effectively them who would come up with the conclusion and not the properly educated legal worker.

>>520514
>Who should we believe, you or the attorneys?
Neither party since the attorneys have a conflict of interest see to quote above. They are literally trying to win over customers.

I admit that I mistook the website for a forum, my bad. Good for me that I asked for a) legal precedence and b) a person convicted by a judge (and not a jury).
>>
>>520515
>What about the Red Cross?

See here >>509544

There is not a shred of evidence the Red Cross as an organisation has ever backed Holocaust denial or ever claimed to have published evidence supporting Holocaust denial or has ever been an organisation that compiles stats on war crimes.

This is pure fantasy.
>>
>>520528
>They are literally trying to win over customers.
By providing poor legal advice?
That doesn't seem like sound business practices to me.
>>
>>520520

I suggest you read the post you replied to again.

There are thousands and thousands of eyewitnesses. Trying to imply all of them are liars based on a small number of didgy accounts is obvious idiocy.

I'm surprised you were so easily persuaded by this argument in the first place. Surely you are a bit too smart and cynical for that.
>>
>>520535
>nizkor

Really, m8?
>>
>>520536
>That doesn't seem like sound business practices to me.
And why is that? They are being paid either way. As long as they arent claiming that its a safe bet, the plaintiff cant even accuse them of lying. Where do you think all the prejudices regarding lawyers come from? Hell, its especially bad in the US because of how gigantic your country and how worthless a law degree from a non-Ivy league school is.
>>
>>520546
Really.
(*´∇`)┌θ(ノ>_<)ノ
>>
>>520546

I'm sorry mate. They are a reasonable source. That sort of thing doesn't work on /his/
>>
>>520560
>an extremely biased source is a reasonable one

Nice to see what are /his/' standards.
>>
>>520548
>They are being paid either way
Except they don't actually being paid if the person they give faulty legal advice to does their own research and comes to an opposite conclusion, because they never get hired in the first place.
>>
>>520556
>Those testimonies conflict with other testimonies.

By reading them and looking at the weight of historical evidence rather than cherry picking them based on ideology and suggesting a small number refute the rest.

I mean, that should be fairly obvious, right?
>>
>>520509

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1521417.html

>Moreover, the prejudice in this case is worsened because the only evidence of Rosario's guilt was the testimony of two stranger eyewitnesses. There is no question, in my opinion, that had the additional alibi witnesses who were presented in connection with Rosario's post-conviction motion testified at trial, there is a reasonable probability that the jury's verdict would have been different, satisfying the prejudice prong of the Strickland analysis


Don't forget, you claimed upthread that you did indeed know that there was no substantive difference between physical evidence and testimony, that they're both "evidence". If so, and the trier of fact is satisfied to its veracity, what possible theoretical basis could there be for not convicting solely based on testimony that either the judge or the jury believes is correct? Those are issues of weight, not admissibility; and a trier of fact has almost unlimited latitude to determine the value of any evidence legally presented before him.
>>
>>520567

I apologise for posting neo-Nazi websites. Would you care to post a single citation from the Red Cross or a netral historian that backs the claim the Red Cross is an orgnanisation that collects data about war crimes and backs Holocaust denial.
>>
>>520585

You seriously want to scratch every single piece of eyewitness testimony from the study of history?
>>
>>520593
>that hyperbole

Just when it's something as controversial as the holocaust.
>>
>>520548

Under the rules of the ABA, an attorney giving demonstrably incorrect advice has failed to meet their duty of competence and can be sanctioned, up to and including having their license to practice stripped from them.
>>
>>520588
This is direct from the horse's mouth.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/redcross.html
>>
>>520543
>Trying to imply all of them are liars based on a small number of didgy accounts is obvious idiocy
Uhem, not him but why exactly couldnt all of them lie to push an agenda? I think youre underestimating human nature.

Before you go there: I dont say that they are lying, I am simply asking you why youre so sure that they couldnt possibly do so. Truth always depends on where youre looking from. Racists for example hardly ever are racist because they chose to be. They were raised this way and for them its the normal way of thinking. The same way you believe in equality even though there being nothing that actually backs it up as being the optimal choice.

After all, its nothing but a mindset and we as society decide whats right or wrong. Nature dictates one law, and one law alone: survival of the fittest.

>>520569
Sounds like an assumption to me. And I am still waiting for legal precedence.

>>520576
>what possible theoretical basis could there be for not convicting solely based on testimony that either the judge or the jury believes is correct?
Human nature and the fact that a testimony can be faked on a whim. Thats why it shouldnt be reliable and just add to the trail, not be its basis and the reason for conviction.

>or the jury believes is correct
A bunch of normal people who arent even capable of objectively judging a situation and are specifically picked because they have certain prejudices. Hell, the entire picking process is a fucking farce. But that just my opinion.

>unlimited latitude to determine the value
Then he should also be aware of reality.

You example seems conclusive and I stand corrected. However, I still find it funny that the However, I think its funny that this is the follow up paragraph to your quote
>I come to this conclusion, as I must, because there exists too much alibi evidence that was not presented to the jury, and too little evidence of guilt, to now have any confidence in the jury's verdict.
>>
>>520600

The Holcaust happening is about as controversial as the Vietnam War happening matey.
>>
>>520600
If the Holocaust is controversial then all historical events are controversial.
>>
>>520611
If it was as you say we wouldn't have this conversation.
>>
>>520610
>Sounds like an assumption to me.
That's because you're an idiot.

> And I am still waiting for legal precedence.
and your intellectually dishonest ass shall continue to wait.
>>
>>520617

Do you honestly think your views are some sort of a mainstream opinion?

>we have to discount hundreds of thousands of eyewitness testimonies for a proven historical event because me and my buddies on /pol/ claim it is controversial.
>this is the criteria for which historical evidence no longer is valid.

Kek.
>>
>>520503
>6 millions on Russia
>6 millions on Eastern Europe
>6 millions on Central Europe

Could you give me a source at least?
>>
>>520617
Just because some idiot somewhere holds a contrary opinion on something doesn't mean there's a controversy surrounding the topic in question.

There is no controversy that the world is round for instance yet that hasn't stopped people on the internet from making the claim that it is actually flat.
>>
>>520606

That doesn't say a damn thing about them collating data and you know it.
>>
>>509405
Absolutely based thread OP.
>>
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>>520630

>Where is the evidence?

Oh I see. You though this was /pol/ and not /his/ and failed to read the thread.

>>509405
>>509411
>>509417
>>509424
>>509437
>>509443
>>509454
>>509464
>>509527
>>509544
>>509552
>>509557
>>509577
>>509605
>>509635
>>509690
>>509700
>>509704
>>511126
>>519814
>>520421
>>
>>520664
Lad, I'm only one person.
I was trying to disprove each one of them but it's quite bothersome.
Won't do it this time because I don't have the patience necessary. But I already responded to some of them.
>>
>>520617
>this is what Stormfags actually believe

You're an embarrassment to civilized society.
>>
>>512525
>blacks

calling bullshit
>>
Leucther report /thread
>>
>>520872

How efficient are you being about placement? Are you trying to minimize the amount of empty space, or are you just throwing them in a hole?
>>
>>520898
I was thinking it would have to be simplistic, as I don't have any figures for dead body pile density. It's easier if the bodies were considered rectangles, but that might be too simplistic. I could also use an estimated volume of the average person in order to get a rough sum.
>>
>>520872
I'm shit at maths, so in case there is a mistake, my working was (found a site saying a human is 2ft x 2ft x 6ft, so 24 cubic ft) which is 0.679604 cubic metres, X 3000,000 = 2038812. so 0.002038812 of a cubic kilometre. and this is assuming everyone is 6ft.
>>
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>>520872
It depends

When you burn a body a lot of mass is lost. I can't estimate how much but extremely generally speaking when a body is completely burned to ashes you're left with about 5 pounds of ash, and it takes 10 well-burned humans to create, again roughly speaking, a cubic foot of ash.

3,000,000 burned to a crisp humans would make up about 300,000 cubic feet of ash AT THE LEAST.

pic related is an from an infographic about what 10 billion US pennies would look like. The cubic volume of the stacks of pennies shown is about 200,000 cubic feet. add half again to the image and that's what you can estimate 3 million (completely cremated) adults would look like.

[1/3]
>>
>>520872
>>520898
>>520918
It also depends on how we're storing them. Are we just piling them up like sand on a sand dune? Or do we have a certain container we're trying to fill? Depending on how small the footprint is, you may have to take into account the compression of those on the bottom of the pile.
>>
>>520940
Of course, if they weren't burned down to dust, the adult human body in it's natural form is about two and a half cubic feet, roughly speaking.

Which changes our 300,000 feet^3 to 7,500,000 feet^3

this image which happens to show every penny currently in circulation, measures in at just over 4,000,000 cubic feet, just so you can visualize what kind of mass we're talking about here

again i must say, gross generalization, but this image TWICE is just about what you'd expect 3000000 humans to look like if you could remove all of the empty space caused by clothes, spaces between limbs, etc.

[2/3]
>>
>>520937
You'd have to be pretty fat in order to be 2' x 2'. I'd say it's more like 1.5' x 1' x 6' area. That would mean you could fit three million bodies in an approximate 1500' x 3000' x 6' area, which is about 1/6th of a square mile. If they were all laid next to eachother, that would mean that you could cover an entire square mile with dead bodies!

>>520940
>>520960
That's a lot of pennies.
>>
>>520983
>You'd have to be pretty fat in order to be 2' x 2'

I figured having a comfy overestimation was ok, so that you could be confident that the real area would be smaller.
>>
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>>520444
>>520433
Okay, phew i'm the guy from a few hours ago.

I finally found it.
>>
>>521911

You seem to have forgotten where you are.

Simply declaring posts to be "shill" posts is only taken as a serious point on /pol/.
>>
>>521911
Yea yea yea.
>>
>>510820
>The average jew was middle class and above the average German.

This is bait or retardation, can't tell exactly.

They where jew elites but most of the population lived in pretty bad conditions.
>>
>>519936
>>512849
>can't do anything but meme
>>521417
>resorting to completely unsourced macro images
Kek. No worse than /pol/, /leftypol/.
>>
>>522180
Not him, but half the shit on that image is researchable. It took me 3 minutes on google.

Not only that, but you didn't even properly address the image itself.
>>
>>522230
I don't have to.
I'm not a holocaust denier (^:
As I said, it's no worse than what /pol/ does.
Even reading through a few of the portions it resorts to dastardly tier
>IT'S ALL NEO-NAZI STUFF
>>
>>522180
>>522236

>I'm not a Holcaust denier!
>I just joined the thread to shitpost
>and shitpost is what I'm gonna do
>>
>>522263

You may not have noticed but there is a heck of a lot more in this thread than one image macro.
>>
>>522267
And you might notice how I am talking specifically about the image macro.
>>
>>522273

Actually I noticed that you turned up in the thread to shitpost a bit and pointed it out.

Nice shitposting friend.
>>
>>520520
>"I did not know about the gas chambers."
>"I must truthfully state that in no camp have I ever seen anything that might have resembled gas chambers"
>telling us this means a positive claim "had no gas chambers...while there[sic] remained in Auschwitz."
Wow. Simply amazing.
>>
I'm pretty impressed with /his/. I avoided it because i thought it was going to be another /pol/ but this thread is pretty good.

I'm from argentina, a country full of nazi and jewish descendants living next to each other. I've read them debate a lot over this. It's pretty obvious negationists/revisionists are full of shit. Still fun to read them.
>>
>>520454
>>520515
>>520520
>>520556
>>520585
>>520661
FEED ME YOUR DELICIOUS INFOGRAPHICS /pol/

Only by posting them all can you once and for all disprove the holocaust
>>
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Did gypsies deserve it?
>>
>>525690
It's hard to say

On the one hand, I'm really against genocide.

On the other hand, Gypsies weren't doing themselves any favors by being nomadic bands of petty criminals.
>>
>>520585
When kids on an imageboard can deny something even Nazi's didnt deny
>>
>>520671
quick reminder this guy has answered one half of the evidence and then skipped a few and then answered the ones that were posted later

aka

hes le epic trolling us XDDD cause he cant argue against most the points
>>
>>525690
unfortunately, yes!
you have no idea ,mate.
>>
>>520470
"Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of WHICH ACTION DOUBTLESS A LARGE PORTION WILL BE ELIMINATED BY NATURAL CAUSES." (emphasis mine)

Read, dude. You're on /his/
>>
>unironically using the eyewitness testimonies
Guys please.
>>
>>527749

Outside the zany world of Holocaust deniers eyewitness testimony is perfectly valid, in fact it is the very basis of most of history.

Imagine studying the American War of Independence and completely disregarding all of the accounts of battles etc.
>>
>>527764
A lot of the eye witness testimonies for the holocaust are extremely suspect. Some even having obvious incorrect information like saying cyanide makes a person turn blue. Naturally, I'm suspicious of them. There are better ways to go about recording history, and they should really only be used if one has to.
>>
>>527778

I doubt you know anything about the study of history. There are thousands upon thousands upon of eyewitness accounts and any given one being suspect does not discredit any single other one.

Here have a letter from General Patton.

http://eisenhower.archives.gov/research/online_documents/holocaust/1945_04_15_Patton_to_DDE.pdf
>>
>>527786
There's a difference between General Patton and some random people put in front of a TV screen for ratings, friend.
>>
>>509405
How legitimate is this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJEE3thwmk
>>
>>527764
When witnesses claim that it only took 15-30 minutes to cremate a body, when modern cremation takes an hour with upgraded furnaces, I definitely would not trust them.
>>527786
>w-well just because some people are wrong doesn't mean they all are!
witness testimonies are extremely unreliable, for example a lot of nazis denied it, but you don't use them as a source so why use the ones that don't deny it? They could just as easily be lying
>>
>>527805

That's nice dear. I'm glad you are already accepting one of the eyewitnesses who inspected the camps as genuine, even of you somehow want to relegate all of the others, in some bizarre and retarded fashion into the category of "some random people put in front of a TV screen for ratings".

Have some photos, you people are fiond of saying shit like "show me da bodies" amirite?

http://eisenhower.archives.gov/research/audiovisual/images/holocaust.html
>>
>>527808

Would you mind providing the sources you are talking about so we can discuss them?
>>
more like

Holohoax
>>
>>527824
Why so pretentious and hostile? Did I hurt your feelings? Bad day at work? :^)
>>
>>527857

Would you like a nice report about Dachau?

http://eisenhower.archives.gov/research/online_documents/holocaust/Report_Dachau.pdf
>>
>>527883
No.
>>
>>527906

What about a nice piece of eyewitness testimony. I know you like that sort of thing.

http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%204033.pdf
>>
>>527919
Be honest. Does this one even sound legitimate to you?
>>
>>527808


When 1875 sources say it can be done in 45 minutes, and you have testimony of multiple cremations, it doesn't seem so hard.

https://ia902607.us.archive.org/11/items/cremationdead00eassgoog/cremationdead00eassgoog.pdf

(pages 124-126 of the pdf)
>>
>haha Jews are fucking scum. Let's finished what Hitler started and gas them all.
>THE NAZIS WERE GOOD BOYS THEY DINDU NUFFIN HERE'S ONE SECONDARY SOURCE THE HOLOCAUST IS JUST A ZOG LIE

Holocaust deniers are such retards.
>>
>>527931

It seems just fine to me. Did you have a problem with it?

http://www.ushmm.org/research/the-center-for-advanced-holocaust-studies/miles-lerman-center-for-the-study-of-jewish-resistance/medals-of-resistance-award/treblinka-death-camp-revolt
>>
>>527940

This appears to be about the history of cremation rather than the primary sources about the Holocaust you wanted us to discuss.
>>
>>527943
Yes.
>>
>>527962
>>527941
It's almost as if everyone isn't one person...
>>
>>527941
Not as retarded as jews though.

>hey stupid goy let me corrupt your media, swindle your money and debase your mores
>OY VEY WHY DO YOU HATE ME SO?
>>
>>527960

Here's your reply.
>>
>>527831
source of what? The cremation claim? One I can think of off the top of my head is a Dario Gabbai interview https://sfi.usc.edu/news/2015/10/10140-what-story-two-sonderkommando-interviews-usc-shoah-foundation-archive
>>
>>527959

Precisely. It has information as to what was possible to do with cremation all the way back in 1875, close to 70 years before the holocaust, and working with even more primitive technology.

Ergo, your statement up here,

>when modern cremation takes an hour with upgraded furnaces, I definitely would not trust them.

Is enormously misleading. Modern cremation takes so long not because we don't have the technology to burn bodies faster, but because of a whole host of health and safety regulations, mostly involving stuff so that the funeral home doesn't lose ashes, and has a nice urn they can put them in for the grieving family.

If you just wanted to reduce as many bodies to ash as quickly as possible, you can go a lot faster. Therefore, your point that the cremation claims cannot be true because of comparisons to modern cremation practices are nonsense.
>>
>>527974
Thanks, m8.
>>
>>527976

And he is talking about having to pulverise the remians after they are taken from the ovens, so clearly not talking about turning them into the fine ash that you are talking about with ritual cremation.
>>
>>527979

You are replying to the wrong person, I am not one of the /pol/acks but good post none the less.
>>
>>527988
>it takes 30-40 minutes with superior furnaces to get from crumpling remains to fine ash
somehow I don't believe that
>>
>>509405
the holocaust was a bunch of holograms
>>
>>525739
Just post your bullshit on /pol/ then.
Let's see how you tread outside of your safe space.
>>
>>527941
/pol/'s thought is that Hitler didn't gas them, but he should.
>>
>>528023
See:
>>527968
>>
>>528001

>turning them into fine ash

That is the opposite of what I just said and what was said in the interview.

I just pointed out there is a big difference between putting a body in an industrial oven for 30 mins and then smashing up what remains and chucking it in a truck, which is what the Sonderkommando said in the interview and trying to compare that with spending hours burning bones completely down to fine ash for neat presentation in an urn for relatives, which is what you are trying to compare it to.
>>
>>528045
I was implying that the extra 30-40 minutes in modern cremations was spent going from crumpling remains to fine ash.
It's my fault though, I forgot you kiddies were a little slow :^)
>>
>>528054

Obviously flesh is going to go pretty quickly. It is the bones that take a long time to get into ash.
>>
>>528062
I won't pretend I'm very educated on the matter, but it just seems very unlikely that if they're already at the point that you can just crush them into ashes, it would take another 30-40 minutes without.
>>
Tbh I want to see an order from Hitler commanding the execution of the holocaust.
Otherwise, intentionalism is bunk.
>>
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>>528078

He didn't say "just crush them into ashes" he said "pulverise them" which in normally use of English would mean a fairly crude smashing process.

The photos don't seem to show that the bodies were being turned into fine ash.
>>
>>528082

The intentionalism vs functionalism debate is a different one and is perfectly reasonable, so long as you are not deliberately trying to twist functionalism into Holcaust denial for ideological purposes.
>>
>>528163

Actually no, but it wouldn't make the slightest difference to the validity of the content of my posts if I was.

There is nothing wrong with being Jewish and calling someone a Jew because you think that is an insult and magically discredits their post is disgusting behaviour and doesn't count as a credible argument on /his/

I think the board you are looking for is /pol/
>>
>>528082

>leave a paper trail

i seriosuly doubt he was that stupid
>>
>>509405
Funny how all the denial posts are getting deleted. I guess only one narrative is politically acceptable.
>>
>>528290
No, the shitposting is getting deleted. The few holocaust denial posts that aren't shitposting (including the infographics) haven't been deleted.
>>
>>528290

80% of the posts getting deleted aren't even holocaust-denying, they just have a very slight hint that the poster might hold that belief
If only they started also doing that for anyone from reddit this board would get ten times better
>>
>>528290

Only the ones relating to stupid shit like calling people "shills" or "Jews".

I know it is hard when you have to make a serious argument based on evidence.
>>
>>528326

What self-pitying bullshit. Any reading of the thread can see that is not the case.
>>
>>528367

Oops, sorry anon, this >>528367 was meant for this >>528339
>>
>>528372
Why was this post deleted? >>527962
>>
>>528398

What was the content?

A fascinating primary source with a serious rebuttal.

I can't remember what that post said, exactly, but I was in thread at the time and if I am correct it was some greentext rant about Jews.
>>
>>528398
as the guy who made the post, I made it making fun of this shitpost >>527941 so I'm not sure why it was deleted but not the other one, bit of a bias if you ask me
>>
>>528425
It was just a reply to >>527941 on the same lines
>>
>>528367
It's more that holocaust deniers seem to shitfling a lot more than anyone else. If you can't remain calm, back up your points and explain them then you should expect to have your post removed
>>
>>528447

I agree, see >>528372
>>
>>528442

Neither of you should be shitposting. You should have ignored or reported the other post.

This is NOT /pol/ with dates.
>>
>>528256
>most beurocratic nation is history
>conduct the mass murder of millions
>without any paper trail
>conveniently here is a copy of the wanasse conference
Oy vey
>>
>>528623

You may have missed these....

>>509557
>>509605
>>509704

...while you busy trying to discredit a legitimate source with a bit of silly greentext and saying "oy vey".
>>
Here's a pastebin of all OP's links
http://pastebin.com/20njpHDd
>>
>>528643
Which one of these has to do with the camps though?

The only documentation that I'm aware of from any of the camps are the Aushwitz death certificates which are pretty much what you would expect from a concentration camp.

There are some samples on the bottom of the page

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p265_Weber.html
>>
>>528731

OP here, thanks, dude. Please could you remove the IHR and the live science link, they are not from me and are a bit dodgy.

The Sturdy-Colls report quoted in live science is not that awesome and the IHR link is something from a Holocaust denial website.
>>
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>>528045
> just pointed out there is a big difference between putting a body in an industrial oven for 30 mins

>industrial oven

Who the hell are you kidding? There were no industrial ovens, they're normal cheep looking peices of crap, all the camps had them. There was nothing industrial about them even at the time period
>>
>>528788
>The Sturdy-Colls

That's been exposed as a hoax. I mean the sheer dishonesty of that person and her documentary catapulted me so much to the revisionist side I don't think nothing will be able to convince me now
>>
>>528792

It has not been exposed as a "hoax" anywhere but in the minds of nutty Holocaust deniers, but is not solid enough and if I learned one thing about discussing this issue is that Holcaust deniers have the mindset that if one piece of evidence is not substantial enough they can declare it a "lie" that discredits "the narrative" because they have no idea what the study of history involves.
>>
>>528788
Ah no worries, I jsut saw that this thread was on its way to its death bed so I thought I best gather it all together
http://pastebin.com/6UR4syjk
>>
>>528784
>pretty much what you would expect from a concentration camp.

Lovely. "Pretty much what you would expect from a concentration camp" eh? As if a concentration camp is a normal thing that often happens.

>http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p265_Weber.htm

The vast majority of Auschwitz inmates were gassed on arrival without being registered.

http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/about-the-available-data/death-records/sterbebucher
>>
>>528838

Thanks, anon. I have the sources saved but your thinking is better, a widely available collection is good.
>>
>>528623
Please refer to this.
>>528082
>>
believing in the official version of the holocaust is indicative of severe naïveté and of a conception of the world in which governments and secret services don't manipulate information (b/c izz wrong and nobdy would evrrr do it rite???)

considering as reliable confessions of men whose families were held in custody by the soviets, and who where themselves prisoners of the USSR, is totally idiotic (because communist russia had such high respect of human rights and prisoners, and would definitively never torture or execute innocents in order to extort false confessions, r-right?)

the same must be said of presumed documents, both in text and photographic (because KGB and CIA, the two greatest intelligence/clandestine operations agencies in the world would never forge false proof in order to obtain a goal, amirite?)

also to trust the testimony of people (jews and other interned in labour camps) who very likely hated the nazis (for the simple reason that they were hated back, considered inferior, discriminated, imprisoned in labour camps, et cetera) and are to this day paid for what was supposedly done to them (german reparations to the jews anyone?), is foolish to a point that I can't emphasize enough with words

moreover, to forget the fact that both the soviets and the allied needed a scapegoat, such a terrible sin to distort the attention from their own many warcrimes during wwii, makes the whole thing alike to the release of a man suspected of murder, who has both reason and means, on the basis that he is the judge in his own trial (vae victis).

in conclusion let me add that refusing to acknowledge that WWII was a ideological war, started with the sole intent of destroying fascism is either motivated by absolute hypocrisy or absolutely historical ignorance
>>
>>528643
Sorry, I misquoted.
You seemed to miss the entire point of the post
Jew.
>>528851
>>
>>528840
>The vast majority of Auschwitz inmates were gassed on arrival without being registered.
>http://auschwitz.org/en/museum/about-the-available-data/death-records/sterbebucher
Your link makes that claim, it does not substantiate it.
>>
>>528819
Yes it has. Watch her documentary, any sane person will call bullshit.

In that documentary, she goes in the local cemetary around Treblinka and digs near clearly marked graveyards, finds one boddy and claims she found the gass chamber.

She also claims that an old logo of an old german company was the star of david made to fool the Jews. Also claims that a single tile proves the existence of the gass chambers.

The entire thing is a mess.

http://newobserveronline.com/smithsonian-red-faced-after-treblinka-star-of-david-tiles-shown-to-be-not-jewish-at-all/
>>
>>528875

You don't seem to understand, anon.

You seem like a more intelligent person than the average pol/ack/ that is prepared to argue based on posting "oy vey" or whatever. So I would urge you to listen.

The historical evidence for the Holocaust is overwhelming, take a look at what has been posted in this thread, and that is just a fraction of what is available because it is the stuff easily available on line as a link rather than the voluminous evidence available if you go and start looking at some history books.

What you are making is a fallacy fallacy i.e. the claim that if one person makes a bad argument the opposite is true. A bit like if we were discussing whether Big Macs are a healthy food and I said Big Macs were unhealthy because they have lettuce in them and you coming to the conclusion that Big Macs were therefore healthy because lettuce is healthy and I made a shit argument.

Sturdy-Colls was some twenty-something archaeology student that made not a terribly solid documentary, it does not make what she did a "hoax" or the Holocaust some sort of conspiracy.
>>
>>528914
Stepping in here for a moment, he isn't disputing the totality of the holocaust, he is saying that the research they did was a farce.
>>
>>528914
I've seen a lot of it, and I'm not convinced. A lot of nonsensical, contradictory, mind boggling stuff, very little logistics. Revionist books or even amateur youtube documentaries compiled from various sources make a lot more sense than propaganda trials in Israel.

Pretty much what he said
>>528857

And no it's not an innocent little documentary, it's deception and dishonesty at the highest level. They couldn't prove anything in Treblinka because nothing happened in Treblinka , there was never 875k people burried there that were dug out
>>
>>528914
Are you saying her teams research is well and viable?
Because it isn't.
You're very dodgy with anything you word, and annoyingly paranoid with
>MUH /POL/!!! ;;;;__;;;;
>>
>>528933

He said >>528792 >
That's been exposed as a hoax. I mean the sheer dishonesty of that person and her documentary catapulted me so much to the revisionist side I don't think nothing will be able to convince me now

>>528937

Dude, amateur Youtube documentaries, really! C'mon man.

>>528939

You don't appear to have read a word I said. I would suggest you read it again.
>>
>>528790

This isn't a source, it is rhetoric. I suggest you learn the difference.
>>
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Six million j000ws???
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/9906771/Nazis-may-have-killed-up-to-20m-claims-shocking-new-Holocaust-study.html

Stop being an anti-semite anon.
>>
>>528986

That Telegraph article doesn't have a single link to the study they are on about, without us even beginning to discuss the figures.

Could you be a little less childish?

Where's the study so as /his/torians we can have a look at it?
>>
>>528968
Well it is a hoax.

She claims she has found evidence of mass graves, and definitive proof of the gass chamber. None of which is true, and the only evendence you really need is the documentary made based on her research, there is literally a camera following her around.

She did not find mass graves she found two bodies in a clearly marked christian graveyard.

She did not prove the gass chambers exist, she found a floor tile.
>>
>>529037

Okay. I disagree, but let's say I agree with every word of your post, extrapolating from that, what do you think that proves?

Reminder, before you answer, that this entire discussion comes from me telling another anon to remove her study from the comprehensive list of sources proving the Holocaust that have been posted in this thread becasue I thought it was not very good.

Second reminder, before you answer that compostion / division fallacies and fallacy fallacies are indeed fallacies and not something a rational person bases an argument on.
>>
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Other holocaust thread was deleted so i'll post my answer here.

>>529055
>Not really. That is a fallacy: an appeal to authority.
You don't seem to understand how academia/scientific consensus works.

>The correct way to deal with contrarian claims is to disprove them, not shout them down.
To disprove contrarian claims, they have to provide some kind of falsifiable proof. What would i disproof if they didn't? Didn't you say they don't have the burden of proof?

>All right, could you please provide me a written nazi document discussing the homicidal gas chambers? I honestly don't know if any exists, just curious.
Nazis were not retarded, the holocaust is discussed with euphemisms such as final solution like pic related.
On the other hand, could you provide me with documentation explicitly ordering genocides in the cases of the soviets, mao, 70's latin america, armenia, etc? Or any other genocide? Have genocides never happened?

>That is false, the revisionist stance is that homicidal gas chambers weren't used to exterminate jews. Revisionists obviously don't deny that jews suffered greatly, were deported to concentration camps where millions died.
There's a ton of different revisionist positions. Some revisionists, for example, would argue that jews didn't "suffer greatly" but rather had pools, entertainment, and lived a comfortable life in concentration camps.
I'm not misrepresenting the opposition, most revisionists/negationists do ultimately end up in some sort of solipsism of rejecting any evidence. There's examples in the threads up right now if you want some.
>>
>>529077
It proves that Treblinka was just a transit camp, not the biggest mass grave in the world, exactly like the strong arguments this book makes.

This thing had aerial technology, a lot of budget and the only thing they could do is dig in the local cemetery to find an old body. You cannot claim there were 875,000 bodies burried in a small location and not have the physical evidence to prove it.

As it is now,it's just fairytales by half a dozen "eyewitnesses" with huge holes in their stories
>>
>>529139
Kek,
>Nazis used euphemisms
>but in other documents that were more available they didn't
That doesn't really line up m8.
Also, none of us can read German.
>>
>>529149
It was a while back but I spent a lot of time looking trough it.

I'm not sure what the word is in english, but all the major evidence of the holocaust,I mean the really big stuff is just conjecture. It's people seeing what they want to see and interpreting it the same way.

The best analogy i can see is the holocaust museum I've been too has piles of shoes in it. It's old piles of shoes, kinda looks tragic. And that's one of the main evidence of the holocaust, what a pile of shoes means I don't know. Majdanek for example had a shoe workshop, but in this case this pile of shoes means genocide.
>>
>>529170
>And that's one of the main evidence of the holocaust
Jesus christ /pol/, get your shit together.
>>
>>529177
Have you ever been to Aushwitz? The museum has some black and white photos, cans of pesticide and old piles of shoes.

Also the gass chamber they show off to tourists is a pretty much a propaganda showcase made by the soviets, they built a fake chimney that's connected to nothing
>>
>>529146
How come there are train records of people arriving to treblinka and never leaving? Not to mention all the testimonial evidence.
>>
>>529146

Would you mind telling me what the strong arguments this book makes and the sources it uses rather than just posting the cover.
>>
>>529184
Completely irrelevant and inane post.
>>
>>529213
>Not to mention all the testimonial evidence.

What testiomonial evidence? The treblinka account is based on several eyewitnesses that are refferenced again and again, and they all tell lies and stories with holes you can drive a truck trough. This is one of the key eyewitnesses in Treblinka, listen to the insane shit he spews without breaking a sweat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCkRDQpTg2c

>How come there are train records of people arriving to treblinka and never leaving?

Many documents related to the camps were only recovered after the soviet archives were oppened and many were lost forever. There are plenty of testionies in Spielbergs shoah fouondation interviews of people being transited trough Treblinka.
>>
>>529248

Would you mind telling me who you think they are and why their evidence is irrelevant?
>>
>>529227
I read this seven years ago, but as far as I remember it's mostly technical stuff like documents and maps,testimonies.
>>
>>529248
>Many documents related to the camps were only recovered after the soviet archives were oppened and many were lost forever. There are plenty of testionies in Spielbergs shoah fouondation interviews of people being transited trough Treblinka.

So why aren't you posting them?

Transit to where?
>>
>>529258

Well thanks for that astonishly good explanation of the argument, backed by sources.
>>
>>529257
Yankel Wernick is the main one, Abrham Bomba posted in the video, and there were three more I think.

There's this ridicilous claim around that only 7 or 8 people survived Treblinka, but in the shoah foundation interviews a lot of people claim they were transported trough treblinka II along with hundreds of people
>>
>>529263
There's a compilation in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlFCvQttOv8
>>
>>529283

So where did they go?
>>
>>529296

>a compilation?

For fuck's sake.

Where did they go?
>>
>>529298
Other camps where there was work to be done? Prisoners were moved all the time where they were needed or had skills to put to use.
>>
>>529307
>they picked 500 young men, they put us back on the cars in the morning we came back from Treblinka back to Lublin
>>
>>529248
>What testiomonial evidence?
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/aktion-reinhard/treblinka/

>Many documents related to the camps were only recovered after the soviet archives were oppened and many were lost forever. There are plenty of testionies in Spielbergs shoah fouondation interviews of people being transited trough Treblinka.
I don't know anon. Documentation is very consistent in the case of treblinka, both among documents and in regards to testimonies. In any case, you'll have a hard time explaining where the fuck the million people that, according to you, passed through treblinka ended up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6fle_Telegram
https://web.archive.org/web/20061008222717/http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/zabecki.html
etc.
>>
>>529312
>>529319

And where did they end up?

Reminder >>509527

What they went from transit camp to transit camp and by magic disappeared at some point into Magicland to frolick with pink dinosaurs?

Some me the evidence!
>>
>>529326

This isn't anything, it's an extremely dishonest blog. Where are all the testimonies you're the one who brought them up.
>>
>>529337
How dishonest can you be though? The shoah foundations testimonies are made in the 90s they ended up exactly where they said they ended up. They ended up in Lublin or Majdanek. You didn't even watch the testiomies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlFCvQttOv8

I mean jesus fuck
>>
>>529345
If you click the links the "dishonest blog" provides you'll find testimonies. Given that they are transcripts without input from the website, i don't see how it could possibly be dishonest.
>>
>>529350
I really don't see what your point is. Is your whole argument that because some people passed through treblinka no one was killed there?
>>
>>529350

So the Nazis created a number of camps for no reason to transport people from place to place for no reason and there is no evidence where millions of them ended up?

This is ridiculous anon.
>>
>>529384
Nice add hominem , how unexpected.

How about you read something about what you are trying to discuss. Treblinka I was a very minor concentration camps, it was used for gathering granite, in fact poles still gather grantie there today.

Treblinka II is alleged extermination camp while in fact it was a transit camp. Based on 5-6 eyewitness testiomonies (which are very inconsistent and full of lies) holocaust promotoers claim that 875,000 people were burried there at a few mass graves in a tiny location. Then they were dug out and made to vanish without a trace. Carolyn sturdy colls couldn't find jack shit f these remains with the latest technology and she had to resort to digging in a nearby christian cemetary to find one body, this is all captured in her documentary movie
>>
>>529410
Not him but you didn't answer the question. Train records, intercepted telegrams, and testimonies from both prisoners and train workers consistently point to a million jews being sent to treblinka. Where did they end up?
>>
>>529410

You clearly don't know what ad hom is, I haven't even insulted you, let alone made a claim based on purely insulting you.

5-6 millions Jews disappeared, fact.

Your argument is that for some reason the Nazis created a bunch of transit camps merely to transit Jews from camp to camp and are strangely silent on where they ended up. What to Moon?

Your argument is ridiculous, anon.
>>
>>529436
> Train records, intercepted telegrams, and testimonies from both prisoners and train workers consistently point to a million jews being sent to treblinka.

Citation needed

>Where did they end up?

again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlFCvQttOv8

Transited to other camps or stayed in Treblinka I.

They sure as hell weren't in a 875.000 mass grave to be vanished without a trace
>>
>>529439
Again nothing but dishonesty and straw man arguments. Now 5-6 million jews disappeared and it's not about Treblinka alone right? Lets just ignore the fact that there is zero physical evidence of 800 THOUSAND mass grave, that couldn't be found,lets ignore that, lets just straw men the argument and repeat ourselves. They got sent wherever they were needed, they had Treblinka I which was a concentration camp and Treblinka II which was a transit camp, they re-organized the prisoners and based on their skills or requirements they sent them all over occupied territory to work. German efficency works that way.
>>
>>529446
>Citation needed
see >>529326
Glad to know nazis were just moving prisoners from camp to camp until they magically dissappeared though.
>>
>>529446
>>529460

>they re-organized the prisoners and based on their skills or requirements they sent them all over occupied territory to work.

>They sure as hell weren't in a 875.000 mass grave to be vanished without a trace

So where were they all at the end of the war. All of those missing millions of Jews?

The population report has been provided, show me the warm bodies.
>>
>>529463
nice strawman again

Nikzor is not a source, where are those train records
>>
>>529469

Riight so now you lost this argument and now we're back to the entire holocaust story right, lets just go around and around. I can only suffer bullshit for one part today, I've had enough of this dishonest shit. Post about treblinka
>>
>>529469
So what is more probable, that the nazis can dig out 900k corpses and make them vanish without a trace, or join sovet/american propaganda effort can change a few numbers or come up witt a few documents? There are many debates over world almanacs or encyclopedia britanica number of jews not adding up with the holocuast, and then there's the issues of an entire country of Jews out of nowhere appearing in the middle east
>>
>>529474

>back to the whole Holcaust story

The evidence has been provided, claiming it is a 'story' is just childish.

>>529483

What's more credible? Ashes and bones are harder to account for than millions of live people that you can't account for?

>>529470

In the minds of people who have provided a couple of Youtube clips as the sum total of their evidence that the Nazis decided it would be fun to move a busnch of Jews around from transit camp to transit camp and then the Jews magicked themselves off to Happyland to play with Peter Pan when the war was done.
>>
>>529496
>that the Nazis decided it would be fun to move a busnch of Jews around from transit camp to transit camp and then the Jews magicked themselves off to Happyland to play with Peter Pan when the war was done.

fallacies fallacies, strawmen, strawmen.

>What's more credible? Ashes and bones are harder to account for than millions of live people that you can't account for?

There is a 0% chance nazis can make a mass grave of 875,000 disappear without a trace so an archeologists equiped with modern technology can't locate them. Everything about treblinka is a sham
>>
>>529496
and read up on transit camps from "official sources"..you fucking moron

http://www.theholocaustexplained.org/ks3/the-camps/types-of-camps/transit-camps/#.VpBXgvkrK70
>>
>>529470
I don't give a fuck about what sources you like or don't like, if nizkor triggers you you can look up the exact same testimonies on different websites, the names are there. If you're going to ignore evidence that refutes you based on shit like this everything is tautologically impossible to prove and there's no point in discussing.

>>529483
No genocide death toll is estimated by corpses found, dumbass, that would have a clear bias towards a lower number.
For example, there's new mass graves from dictatorships from 40 years ago discovered in latin america, and a ton of other ones will probably never be found.
Can you provide evidence of corpses for the total death toll of any other genocide? Are revisionists/negationists aware that if other genocides were help up to the standards they apply to the holocaust we would conclude that none existed? The holocaust is one of the best documented historical events, it's time to stop being edgy anon.
>>
>>529502
>fallacies fallacies, strawmen, strawmen.

> a small bit of satire is a strawman

Oh dear, you really need to work on your understanding of logical fallacies.

>There is a 0% chance nazis can make a mass grave of 875,000 disappear without a trace so an archeologists equiped with modern technology can't locate them.

Please we are talking about a student archaeologist who didn't even do any serious digging and a couple of sidekicks on £15,000 a year.

This does not explain where all the Jews went, no matter how hard you squeal about it.
>>
>>529510

And where did they all go?

To Pixieland to frolick with some pink Zebras?
>>
>>529521
I don't see any documents of what you claim in the link you provided so post it more specifically
>>
>>529525
Kek.
I think he is broken guys.
>>
>>529525
How the fuck do I know where they went. I just know without any doubt that Treblinka II was a transit camp and there isn't and there never was a mass grave of 875,000 and even saying that number of mass grave is fucking ridiculous and reeks of old soviet propaganda. And to say that they dug those people out and made them vanish without a trace is absurd.
>>
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>>529556
>>529567

>he's broken
>why should I prove my silly little claim all the death camps were transit camps

I've never seen people as full of utter shit as you are.

In 1946 the British government set up an inquiry with the specific intent of discrediting Jewish immigration to Palestine and downplaying the Holocaust. It was headed by centre-right, non-Jewish, senior judges, civil servants and diplomats from America and the UK.

Its reluctant findings estimated the number of Jewish victims from the Holocaust at 5.7 million...

Germany - 195,000
Austria - 53,000
Czechoslovakia - 255,000
Denmark - 1,500
France - 140,000
Belgium - 57,000
Luxemburg - 3,000
Norway - 1,000
Holland - 120,000
Italy - 20,000
Yugoslavia - 64,000
Greece - 64,000
Bulgaria - 5,000
Romania - 530,000
Hungary - 200,000
Poland - 3,271,000
USSR - 1,050,000

Total Number Jews Killed - 5,721,500
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/angcov.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_Committee_of_Inquiry ….. to make clear to shitposters the Wikipedia source is to show the background to the inquiry, not because this source is only from Wikipedia.


These figures were ENTIRELY from population statistics.

Playing games with your understanding of the numbers that could be killed in gas chambers doesn't qualify as criticism (it isn’t based on that).

Claiming it is a Jewish source doesn't qualify as criticism (because it isn't).

Fucking around with photos doesn't qualify as criticism.

Playing games with numbers killed in individual death camps doesn't qualify as criticism (it isn't based on that).

Claiming the tens of thousands of eyewitnesses from survivors, Germans and non-Germans, are false based on nit-picking their accounts or claiming torture was involved doesn't count as criticism (it is not based on eyewitness accounts).
>>
>>529532
Are you retarded? What specifically do you not find?

>>529567
I'm still waiting for you to provide link to the corpses for the total death toll of any other genocide.
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>>529611
How is this any more valid than the Nuremberg trials? Nuremberg trials they convicted people of 4 million at Aushwitz, 1.5 million at Majdanek, that's 5 more million than what they claim the death toll in these camps is today. These is just another document by a joint propaganda effort. They're trading millions of lives they have no idea what happened to them, these people were never documented, just widly inflated numbers in claimed mass graves of nearly a million which is never proven to actually exist.

>About 1,500,000 persons were exterminated in Maidanek and about 4,000,000 persons were exterminated in Auschwitz, among whom were citizens of Poland, the U.S.S.R., the United States of America, Great Britain, Czechoslovakia, France, and other countries.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/count3.asp

>>529621
>Are you retarded? What specifically do you not find?

>Train records, intercepted telegrams, and testimonies from both prisoners and train workers
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>>529654

A little hint. When you are discussing historical evidene you need to discuss each piece as a separate piece of evidence.

Your argument about the faulty Soviet methodology for to total death count Auschwitz or Madjenek doens't even disprove that they were death camos, let alone anything else given as evidence at the Nuremberg trials, let alone my source.

Welcome to the study of history, bitch.

Oh wait, did some little /pol/ crybaby think simply calling eveything they don't like "the narrative" and sort of mashing their arguments together into one incoherent whole was valid?

Top, fucking, kek.
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>>529682
>at the actual trials American/ Soviet/ British prosection and judges can present false evidence, propaganda, torture witnesses, cook up evidence, inflate numbers 2000%, make up 5 million people that died
>but this study a year later was totally honest and in line with reality,even tho there are contradictions with the world almanac and encyclopedia britanica
>>
>>529654
This is the last time i feed you with the same links. For the train records look up the Ząbecki report and the link with the german crimes in poland article (there's even a nice timeline in wikipedia with the train record for every individual day), for the intercepted telegram look the Höfle Telegram link, for the testimonies look up the Ząbecki interview, the nizkor links, and the testimonies from the trials, plus other testimonies if you search a little bit instead of asking to be spoonfed.
I sometimes think that revisionists believe so much bullshit because of a mix of receptiveness to fast/cheap information (infographics, memes, one liners, click bait) and an inability to google basic shit.

While we are at it, regarding your response to the link above, the soviet estimated death toll in Auschwitz was never taken into account by western historians.
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>>529611
Where does he claim all death camps were transit camps?
Also
>>>/leftypol/ with your shitty copypasta
It's a post war analysis filling the gaps. It's hardly the tell all be all.
You're no worse than any holocaust denier.
>>
>>529695
0 actual links

ZERO
>>
>>529709
They are the links above you fucking retarded piece of shit, if you don't like those links just google for two seconds. Fuckin ell you are annoying.
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>>529693

>World Almanac and Encyclopaedia Britannia

You must be retarded. Tell me all about the studies these organisations conducted.

>toture witnesses

Sure.

>inflate numbers

Total number claimed of approx 6 million was based on German witnesses. Guess, what, it's still 6 million today.

You live in a fantasy land and you still haven't laid a glove on my my source just started whining about how attacking one source. by some sort of magic, like flying in the sky with the snowman, discredits another source.

Weeeee let's fly to the Moon on a magic carpet!
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>>529715
Only thing you posted is Nikzor and there's nothing of the sort on that link
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>>529726
>Total number claimed of approx 6 million was based on German witnesses. Guess, what, it's still 6 million today.


Ok,what german witnesses? Give me the exact numbers. Where did all this people die? Where did the 6 million die plus the 5 more million goyim, or 11 more million goyim. Give me camp by camp numbers.
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>>529708

I have fuck all idea what 'leftypol' is, some /pol/ meme?

And calling a valid historical source 'copypasta' is never, ever, ever, ever, ever going to make it stop being a historical source.
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>>529741
What your posting is literally computer pasta filled in with absolute unsubstantiated bullshit
>With slightly right of center judges
Unsubstantiated
>disproves that there was a large jewish immigration to Palestine and US
And
>this post proves it all
It's /pol/ tier copy pasta.
>>
>>529737

Wilhelm Hoettl testified that Eichmann and Himmler had told him six million.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Testimony-Abroad/Wilhelm_Hoettl-07.html
>>
>>529763

>unsustantiated.

The source is there, retard.
>>
>>529764
>this man said that these man said
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>>529767
I've read the thing twice.
It's not "center right judges" they are not "non-jewish" (as some of the providers and reviewers were and used Jewish reosurces) and it doesn't prove that trablenka was a death camp.
All this population analysis shows is that "people are here this year before the war, and gone here after the war. Wow. People die in war.
Amazing!"
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>>529777
>trablenka
You really don't know what the fuck you are talking about, do you?
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>>529777

I seriously doubt you have just read the entire report and it is a population study done as part of trying to discredit the Holcaust because the Brits wanted to stop further Jewish migration to Palestine, read it sucker, the people heading ti are all named, you can look them up at as well.
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>>529795
>ignore the rest of the post
>implying you know any more than the average bear
I do know quite a bit, and am not a denier by any counts, but revisionist have damming points and it doesn't help when narrative setters lie.
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>>529768

Yes dear, a high ranking Nazi reported on discussions he had with other high ranking Nazis, putting it in such a childish little way isn't going to make it vanish.
>>
>>529799
I have read the entire thing twice before.
It is not a end all be all, and it doesn't prove the systematic mass murder of 6 million jews happened.
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>>529805
>after harsh interrogation
Read what they did to hess.
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>>529803
>ignore the rest of the post
I'm not the one you are discussing with, just thought your post was retardedly hilarious.
>>
>>529812

I see, could you provide me a link to the source that says Hoettl was tortured or are you playing one thing proves another game again.
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>>529820
Here you go friend.
Maybe you should get a trip as well?
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>>529806

>people die in war

Even given the horrors of WW2, pretty much 3 million Polish Jews don't just vanish.
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>>529841
Jews tended to be partizans and resistance fighters, especially polish jews.
It would make sense they died.
The holocaust itself isn't a uniquely or majorly a Jewish suffering anyway, it's a polish one.
>>
>>529855

>it would make sense they died

Not really, there was only about 3 million of them to start with.
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>>529823
His torture was admitted by one of his torturers in a book in 1983, read the part about Bernard Clarke

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p389_Faurisson.html

Hoess also admitted to killing 3 million people and now the claim in 1 million (this is the maximum inumber can they come up with if the ovens worked 24 hours a day or something) So even by his confession you can see that he's not legitimate
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>>529861
Sorry the definitive proof of genocide of 6 million aren't some number on a paper. Give the ammount war attrocity propaganda and post war propaganda statistics can easily be cooked, the criterum for who is jew and who is not can easily change. If you read some authors there are 12 million jews in the world today, if you read others there are 20
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>>529866

I've just been checking on Hoess and the evidence he was tortured seems pretty flimsy, the only evidence for it appears to be this Clarke book, and I said the evidence Hoettl was tortured.

Proving one person was when he was captured (not that you have satisfactorily done that) does not simply magickly prove that anyone else you want to claim was tortured was you know.

You guys still aren't grasping how evidence works are you?
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>>529866

Considering the June 43 Bauleitung report gives 4,756 a day, you can get to the 1.1 million attributed to Auschwitz in under a year, which is far less than the camp was around for.
>>
>>529855
Tens of thousands of historians spent their lifes studying the holocaust and compiling evidence. If only they knew they would be refuted by anon they wouldn't have wasted their time. "Jews tended to be partizans", "It would make sense they died.". Such strong rethoric, the evidence was too overwhelming for them.
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>>529877

Have you got proof of faulty methodology or are you simply dissembling?
>>
>>529879
It's not flimsy unless Clarke was lying. And if for some reason he was lying what's the reason that Hoess would admit to killing 3 million, 2 million more than the estimate?

>>529880
most obvious case of cooked evidence
>>
>>529884
This is from wikipedia, I read about a better one but I'm too lazy to look for it now

>Demographer Sergio DellaPergola proposes an "extended" Jewish population, including people identifying as partly Jewish and non-Jews with Jewish parents, that numbers 17.2 million globally. His "enlarged" Jewish population figure further includes non-Jewish members of Jewish households and totals 20.1 million. Finally, the total number of people who hold or are eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return — defined as anyone with at least one Jewish grandparent, and who does not actively profess any other religion — is estimated at around 22.9 million, of which 6.4 million are currently living in Israel
>>
>>529905
>It's not flimsy unless Clarke was lying.

Or mistaken.

This seems to be another thing you can't get your heads round. Some guy could have made a mistake in a book he wrote, decades after Hoess's capture, or he could be basing it on a tall story some else embellished without any need to go off on the deep end of ranting and raving about hoaxs and lies etc etc.
>>
>>529905

>most obvious case of cooked evidence

Good old circular reasoning. You know it's impossible, therefore all the evidence contrary to your opinion is fake!
>>
>>529909

That's not about the Anglo-American Inquiry.
>>
>>529917
You can go on about this all you want, the fact of the matter is that he overshot by 2 million of todays estimates and this is the only image of Hoess in captivity. Hoess is not the only prisoner who has been tortured

>>529925
Well no then, but considering the americans and the brits not only didn'thave objections to the nuremberg propaganda sham, they participated in it gleefily I'm not gonna take this as definitive evidence.
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>>529948
For people still clinging that the nuremberg trials were legitimate even though they overshot 2000% in Majdanek, here' the kind of stuff that made it in htere
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp


>this is from a report of the Polish Government, which shows that the Camp Sobibur was founded during the first and second liquidation of the Jewish ghetto. But the extermination on a large scale in this camp really started at the beginning of 1943. In this same report, in the last paragraph on Page 136 of the document book, we may read that Camp Belsen was founded in 1940; but it was in 1942 that the special electrical appliances were built in for mass extermination of people. Under the pretext that the people were being led to the
bath-house, the doomed were undressed and then driven to the building where the floor was electrified in a special way; there they were killed.
>>
>>529970
Well just read article 19 and article 21.
The trial was literally just a farce.
>>
>>529970
For people still clinging to overshot numbers, those were never taken into account by western historians and are therefore irrelevant.
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>>529970
Also this guy was used as evidence at the Nuremberg, he was a soviet propagandist/fiction writer
>>
>>529984
>everything that doesn't support my view is irrelevant and wrong, everything that does is fact and can never be disputed
>>
>>529984
The 4 million number was never really disputed until early 90s when the entire revionism movement kicked in. It was displayed on the plaque and it was often cited by American newspapers/publications
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>>529992
Nice projection. Refuting numbers that were never taken into account by historians is completely irrelevant in a thread were people are defending historian's account of the holocaust. If, on the other hand, your aim is to prove soviets were propagandists, i think we can all agree.
>>
>>530016
>The 4 million number was never really disputed until early 90s when the entire revionism movement kicked in. It was displayed on the plaque and it was often cited by American newspapers/publications
Once again, negationists/revisionists are prove too retarded for basic googling.
>Shortly following the camp's liberation, the Soviet government stated that four million people had been killed on the site, a figure now regarded as greatly exaggerated.[156] While under interrogation, Höss said that Adolf Eichmann told him that two and a half million Jews had been killed in gas chambers and about half a million more had died of other causes.[157] Later he wrote, "I regard the figure of two and a half million as far too high. Even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive possibilities".[158] Gerald Reitlinger's 1953 book The Final Solution estimated the number killed to be 800,000 to 900,000,[159] and Raul Hilberg's 1961 work The Destruction of the European Jews estimated the number killed to be a maximum of 1,000,000 Jewish victims.[160]
Hilberg is probably the most important holocaust historian.
>>
>>530024
American prosecutors and judges were part of this farce, it's the british that tortured Hoess, Americans got other witnesses. Americans came up with even more ridicilous propaganda than the soviets bringing in shrunken head of what were obviously blacks from south america and telling people the germans mass produced them from jews
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>>529905
>most obvious case of cooked evidence

It goes without question that the Soviets and Allies inflated the crimes of Nazi Germany for propaganda purposes.

However there is no question that the final solution for the Jewish problem was a systematic extermination of Jews in German controlled territory. The exact numbers of dead and how they died are up for debate but that debate does not change the fact the Holocaust happened.
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>>530039
I don't give a fuck, anon. Historians were studying history and politicians were doing politics. See >>530033.
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>>530033
There are dozens of different estimates from 60 years, and each one was in publicaiton or a school book in one form of another, but the one that's on the plaque today was obviosly always the right one ok, just like the one above him was always the right one when it said 1.5 million on the plaque, and some other will always be the right one if they have to make another revision
>>
>>530049
It did not tho.They were just concentration camps for labor.It was not systematic, there were no mechanisms for mass extermination. Most jews died outside the camps, and the best estimate is just under a million
>>
>>530064
No, anon, the plaque was always seen as soviet propaganda by mainstream historians, and i didn't quote random estimates, i quoted the most important holocaust historian that was part of a scientific consensus.

Pretending that a soviet plaque is more important than the consensus from historians after you've been proven wrong is retarded and intellectually dishonest. Just say that you were wrong when saying that "the 4 million number was never really disputed until early 90s" and we can move on, no big deal.
>>
>>530049
How do you explain Treblinka?

Or the final solution?
>>
>>530081
Directed at >>530067
>>
>>530083
>treblinka

Discussed to death in this thread, the notion that there was a 850,000 mass grave as claimed by witnesses that was dug out and vansihed without a trace, so modern day archeologists can't find evidence, is probably the biggest soviet propaganda of them all

>Or the final solution?

It's more propaganda, it specifically talks about deportations and expulsions which is what was happening
>>
>>530102
>Discussed to death in this thread

http://www.livescience.com/44443-treblinka-archaeological-excavation.html

From Himmler in 1943

"In front of you here, I want to refer explicitly to a very serious matter...I mean here...the annihilation of the Jewish people... Most of you will know what it means when 100 corpses lie side by side, or 500 or 1,000... This page of glory in our history has never been written and will never be written... We had the moral right, we were obligated to our people to kill this people which wanted to kill us."
>>
>>530156
I'm new to the discussion, but wasn't the original intention mass deportation?
And then because of the war turned into extermination?
>>
>>530156
this doesn't have anything to do with treblinka you're just throwing shit and seeing what sticks

that is one sentence from a three hour speech himler made to the SS , and like "the final solution" or any "gotcha" evidence of the holocuaust is pure conjecture, of people seing what they want to see, and it relies on mistranslation of the German word Ausrottung. Read this artricle for more info

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches

This is another speech by Himler which also mentions Ausrottung

"The Jewish question in Europe has completely changed. The Führer once said in a Reichstag speech: If Jewry triggers an international war, for example, to exterminate(Ausrottung) the Aryan people, then it won’t be the Aryans who will be exterminated, but Jewry. The Jews have been resettled outside Germany, they are living here, in the east, and are working on our roads, railways etc. This is a consistent process, but is conducted without cruelty."
>>
>>530175
The most revered historian here seems to be Hilberg and he had this to say about it , unless he changed his mind in the proces


But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They [these measures] were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.
Let us note again those final words: “an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy”[5].
On January 16, 1985 Hilberg confirmed those words and that explanation at Ernst Zündel’s trial in Toronto. He did so under oath during his cross-examination by Zündel’s barrister, Douglas Christie, whom I was assisting[6].
That same year the “revised and definitive” edition of his book appeared. In it, he did not use the expression “consensus-mind reading” but wrote:[7]
In the final analysis, the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of laws and commands as it was a matter of spirit, of shared comprehension, of consonance and synchronization.
>>
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>>530191
So basically pic related?
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>>530183
Ausrottung is also interpreted as "uproot" or to expell.
Not exterminate.
>>
>>530208
Yep. It's a single line from a 1300 pages monstruous research book. Commentated by neonazis.
>>
>>530191
But if this is true, then how does the final solution fit into his theory?
>>
>>530191
>But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They [these measures] were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus-mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.
Could you provide a link to the original text with that quote? Searching the phrase only leads to neonazi pages.
>>
>>530175
That's one theory. I doubt we will ever know how exactly they came to their final solution.

>>530183
Treblinka was an extermination camp. How is that not relevant in a discussion about the reality of the holocaust? I think it's existence is an excellent example of proof of a deliberate policy to exterminate Jews from europe. Certainly it blows a hole in the idea being espoused here that the Nazis just wanted the jews for labor and they then died of happenstance of war.

The posen speeches are recorded historical evidence that the final solution was in fact real and party policy. There is no magical length of speech where some of it just doesn't count anymore. Nor does what he said earlier in the war have any bearing on what actually happened later.
>>
>>530252
>trablenka was an extermination camp
But they couldn't find the supposed 850,000 dead and buried...
>>
>>530252
The Posen speeches are based around one word, and the translation is wholly unclear.
>>530214
>>
>>530252
> I think it's existence is an excellent example of proof of a deliberate policy to exterminate Jews from europe.

You haven't done any research at all about the holocaust or the discussion of the revisionism. Ever been to Treblinka II? It's just an empty lot with some symbolic rocks.They can tell you anything they want happened there because there isn't a single remainig tile

No the existence of the other concentration camps is only proof of the existence of the concentration camps, hard labor.The existence of gass chambers is extremely questionable, in Majdanek they claim random rooms scattered trough the camp functioned as gass chamber, in Aushwitz it was the rooms marked on the map as cold storage(body cellars below the crematoria). Nothing about the design, documentation or layout of the camps suggested murder, rather industrial labor

And out of context mistranslated sentence in a three hour unrelated speech isn't proof of anythigng
>>
>>530245
Raul Hilberg speaking on 22 February 22, 1983 at New York's Lincoln Center Avery Fisher Hall:
>>
>>530296
Again, could you provide a link? Searching the phrase doesn't provide the full text and only leads to neonazi pages.
>>
>>530271
See
>>530049
And
>>530156

>>530277
Lost in translation defense? Lets look at some more lines then.

"I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up."
>>
>>530312
Ausrottung during the time period was used much more with "uproot" or expell, and it is only a secondary word for extermination today even.
>>
>>530284
>They can tell you anything they want happened there because there isn't a single remainig tile

Go back and read this

>>530156

You are demanding proof nobody could deliver without standing you in the camp at 1943. There is no reasonable doubt that the overall goal was to exterminate the Jews. The means, methods, burial locations, exact building layout, and original intention are all up for debate but the core fact remains. Arguing all these minor details thinking that it grants you some kind of victory over the overall reality is absurd.

>>530320
Yes it was all a big misunderstanding. There was also no mass extermination in eastern europe I suppose?
>>
>>530342
>never mind the camps are logisticially uneqiped for mass murder and genociding millions by pesticide and car fuel is impossible
>this purposely mistranslated small part of an unrelated speech is all the proof I need

No. This is as much evidence as goebbles diary,Hitler using Ausrottung in a parlament speech, or the "final solution" which also talks about deportation of jews. This is incredibly weak and all these "gotcha" evidences are conjecture
>>
>>530342
>There was also no mass extermination in eastern europe I suppose?

No.There was war on a huge scale which always takes great civilian toll, and there were concentration/labor camps which were filled mostly with Jews as Germany saw them as their enemy. (America put all their japanese citizens in camps too).Hard to say how many Jews died in these circumstances but a good estimate is less than a million
>>
>>530349
>>never mind the camps are logisticially uneqiped for mass murder and genociding millions by pesticide and car fuel is impossible

I agree with you on the millions as I have said earlier the numbers were likely hugely inflated by the allies and soviets as a propaganda technique. Everything else is nonsense.

>>530356
So the Einsatzgruppen also simply did not exist?
>>
>>530342
Anon, they've been presented with all kinds of documentary and testimonial evidence proving that jews were being sent into treblinka and not coming out. No evidence will convince people that don't want to be convinced, you are wasting your time.
>>
>>530369
I know they won't concede.

This is more of a public shaming of retardation at this point and I am growing tired of it.
>>
>>530342
The mistranslation of Ausrottung is a big one.
Your snide, inaccurate comments which blow other people's arguments into a strawman don't dismiss them.
Learn to fucking discuss a topic, jew.
>>
>>530367
>enstiazgruppen
Literally "anti-partizan" force.
Their operations in Egypt were fantastic.
>>
>>530424
>Anti-partizans


The Jager report lists 137,346 Jews liquidated by December 1st, 1941 in Lithuania.

Which had a pre-war Jewish population of 220,000. Are you seriously of the opinion that some 62% of the entire Jewish population were partisans (and caught, and killed) a mere 5 months after the war started? That the resistance was so widespread that it took in women and children to oppose the Germans?
>>
>>530446
Of course, just like counter revolutionaries my friend ;)
>>
>>530421
>The mistranslation of Ausrottung is a big one.

So you know it's a mistranslation how exactly?

>Your snide, inaccurate comments which blow other people's arguments into a strawman don't dismiss them.

Where's the inaccuracy? Where's the strawman? Your entire argument rests on denying all evidence and supplanting it with an completely fabricated reality which you provide zero evidence to back up.

>Learn to fucking discuss a topic, jew.

Not jewish, not even close, but your feeble attempt at character assassination pretty much ends the debate with you looking like the ridiculous fool that you are.
>>
>>530183
>Literally, in full seriousness, using metapedia as a source
>>
>>530461
>i know i am wrong and instead of being honest about it i'll reply with unrelated nonsense
embarrassing
>>
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>>530183
>metapedia
Thread replies: 477
Thread images: 34
Thread DB ID: 380194



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[Boards: 3 / a / aco / adv / an / asp / b / biz / c / cgl / ck / cm / co / d / diy / e / fa / fit / g / gd / gif / h / hc / his / hm / hr / i / ic / int / jp / k / lgbt / lit / m / mlp / mu / n / news / o / out / p / po / pol / qa / qst / r / r9k / s / s4s / sci / soc / sp / t / tg / toy / trash / trv / tv / u / v / vg / vip /vp / vr / w / wg / wsg / wsr / x / y] [Search | Home]

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