It's time for another /Islam. Pepper your angus because

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>>473587

Here's good read number one. Blankenship goes into how Jihad and dhimmitude was one of main things driving the Ummayad economy. By making it hard for non-muslims to convert (thereby ensuring they had a steady revenue from the dhimmi tax) they unwittingly set the stage for their own demise.

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>>473630
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpLF4pO3QgQ

Many of Professor Blankenship's lectures are also available on youtube like this one about whether or not the Quran was edited.

I'm kind of drunk so I'm gonna confess, even as someone who hates muslim apologists and thinks islamophobia is a word only used by faggots and pussies, I really fuck with the best Islam has to offer and I wish more muslims were badass muslim philosophers like Al-kindi or mystics like the sufis.

there's something about a noble, dignified, god-fearing arabian/desert civilization that's always tickled my fancy. fucking get it together already you mooks

>>473704
You know man, people can say what they will about the Muslims, and I won't claim to be a loyal fan of the lot, but it's moments like these that make me see the wisdom of draconian proscriptions against the consumption of alcohol. Fucking scourge of the occident, the yeasty demon is. Makes men accept spiritual privation.

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Why is Islam so hood?

>>473704
Calling anyone who defends themselves an apologist is dumb. Muslims do bad things but overall I think our doctrine is superior. This thread is supposed to be about history though, not your drunk feelings.

>>473750
Oh is the mud rat mad we brought up terrorism in his hugbox thread.

Fucking faggot, maybe if you'd learn not to act so snooty and offended whenever someone mentions the fucking 50,000+ strong terrorist network that's killing and raping across Syria and Iraq in your holy book's name we wouldn't hate you goatfucking cunts so much

>>473750
same m8

>calling anyone who defends themselves an apologist is dumb. Nazis do bad things but overall I think our doctrine is superior.

>>473785
na tbqh I hated them before ISIS bro

>>473785
Idk if you've ever been in the us army (can't speak for other branches) but there's a huge sense of leading a holy war.

That being said, you hate Muslims so then why hate Muslims who kill other Muslims more? "I want to kill all Muslims especially those Muslims that kill Muslims they're the worst".

common man, cool it on the sauce and talk about the dark ages. What part of it tickles your fancy? You like late antiquity, atilla, Saxons, anything?

>>473896
the fact that you think I should be okay with ISIS because they kill members of this group I supposedly hate so much is top kek. I don't take any joy in hearing about normal muslims trying to raise a family being brutally murdered. Maybe the other muslims in power should get their shit together and fight the cancer in their religion than sit on their hands and write one or two editorials a year about how the muslim world should "rise up" to "combat discrimination" or whatever limpdick shit the liberal media wants them to pump out instead of dealing with the problem at the root

>>473587
Retard who knows little about Islam here. Is it possible that with the extremism lately there is potential for an eventual "reformation"? How much harder would it be for it to occur than with Christianity?

>>474458
Not an expert either here, but I feel that the relationship in modern Islam between religious authority, laypeople and the political powers is pretty dissimilar to that of Catholicism in the time of Luther. There's no monolithic Church authority to break off from, nor can I envision any temporal power willing to take on the necessary political burden.

Christian here. Can someone recommend me some entry-level books on Islamic theology?

Shia Islam is alright, but I do no care for Sunni Islam.

>>474458
The Reformation lead to Puritans and fundamentalists.

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>>473587
Oh shit, time to ask questions and forget to come back to read my answers. I'll do five this time.

>Do you think arabs already had an organized and institutionalized islam before they took land from Persia and Byzantium, or was islam heavily reformed and "invented" as an organized religion upon the arabs meeting capable and seasoned theologians in the cities they conquered, especially jews?
>Do you think the arab conquests were driven by religious fever and were "holy wars", or were they political imperialism, and only excused by religion, and had religion used to recruit soldiers and as propaganda?
>Do muslims like or hate mongols, considering the mongols both destroyed some of the most powerful muslim states, and they themselves founded some of the most powerful muslim states?
>Do modern muslims believe their scripture and myths the same way that creationist christians do, that god created the world 6000 years ago, everything was made in a day, boku haram, etc, or do they accept science and think of islam as only a cultural and moral codex, not a literal one?
>Do you as muslims drink alcohol and eat halal meats? As in, are you good, proper muslims, or just "muslim enough"? In that spirit, do you feel a reform of islam in order to fir in the 21th century is required?

>>474611
Idres Shah's trilogy of Nasrudin tales

>>474648
>theology
>Nasrudin tales
wut?

>>474668
If you ask me for buddhism you're getting Zen Flesh Zen Bones

>>474648
Isnt that like the medieval Zizek?

>>474638
>Do you think arabs already had an organized and institutionalized islam before they took land from Persia and Byzantium, or was islam heavily reformed and "invented" as an organized religion upon the arabs meeting capable and seasoned theologians in the cities they conquered, especially jews?
No, no one would have accepted an open change in the Quran as the majority went to great lengths to learn it by heart.

>Do you think the arab conquests were driven by religious fever and were "holy wars", or were they political imperialism, and only excused by religion, and had religion used to recruit soldiers and as propaganda?
Originally they were in self-defense, but after the Umayyads (crypto-Pagan warlords) took control, offensive wars were waged. They even killed Ali, Muhammad's daughter and his grandsons Hassan and Hussein.

>Do muslims like or hate mongols, considering the mongols both destroyed some of the most powerful muslim states, and they themselves founded some of the most powerful muslim states?
I personally think that the Mongolian and Turkic Empires of the time that claimed to be following Islam were mostly not genuine in their belief. They saw it as novel.

>Do modern muslims believe their scripture and myths the same way that creationist christians do, that god created the world 6000 years ago, everything was made in a day, boku haram, etc, or do they accept science and think of islam as only a cultural and moral codex, not a literal one?
There is nothing that stupid in the Quran, all the "myths" can be explained by science even though they're described in a flowery way. This is because the people of the time would not have had a clue what Muhammad was talking about.

>Do you as muslims drink alcohol and eat halal meats? As in, are you good, proper muslims, or just "muslim enough"?
I try to be. Alcohol and Pork are unhealthy.

>In that spirit, do you feel a reform of islam in order to fir in the 21th century is required?
No. It needs a return.

>>474638
>>474777
>organization & institution
The ulama we know of today was a natural response of the need of ummah. As the society grew, the need for a group of people specialized on interpreting and making religious ruling arise. Thus born the Ulama.

>>473704
you'll meet them in few branch of nahdlatul ulama.
It is indonesian sect.
it has few dark history but not all that bad

>>474638
>Do muslims like or hate mongols, considering the mongols both destroyed some of the most powerful muslim states, and they themselves founded some of the most powerful muslim states?

It depends which muslim do you ask. for the kind of muslim like me that could diferentiate religion as a spiritual stance,drugs/poisons and tool of conqueror&rebel. I have indifferent view about them.

>Do modern muslims believe their scripture and myths the same way that creationist christians do, that god created the world 6000 years ago, everything was made in a day, boku haram, etc, or do they accept science and think of islam as only a cultural and moral codex, not a literal one?

Quran is a creature,word of god in the past not god itself.and just conqueror and reel alike could quote and pick whichever suit their goals doesn't mean they could play a god.

Quran shouldn't be viewed as another ideological idolatry.

>Do you as muslims drink alcohol and eat halal meats? As in, are you good, proper muslims, or just "muslim enough"? In that spirit, do you feel a reform of islam in order to fir in the 21th century is required?

no pork,no pre marital sex,no drugs,no tobacco, no alcohol.
what must be reformed is a most of muslim mind, how they use their islam as a political tools

>>474638
>Do you think arabs already had an organized and institutionalized islam before they took land from Persia and Byzantium, or was islam heavily reformed and "invented" as an organized religion upon the arabs meeting capable and seasoned theologians in the cities they conquered, especially jews?
>Do you think the arab conquests were driven by religious fever and were "holy wars", or were they political imperialism, and only excused by religion, and had religion used to recruit soldiers and as propaganda?

It could be, yes

Islam - the one true religion!

>>475688
think again goatfucker, deus vult

>>475694
No! Allah hu ackbar!
Establish Caliphate! Bismillah! Inshaallah!

>>475688
only god knows the truth.islam is not the truth, islam is just a 'way' not the truth itself

>>475701
any states that using a god and hijacking religion is a thagut "fake god"
it must be defeated at any cost

>>475722
Ave Mars, Roman Paganism is the true religion.

>>473587
Were the Umayyads in Andalusia and their successors white?

I frequently have this argument with Christposters, I reckon they probably were much like your average Spaniard but some say they were Moorish invaders.

I can't understand how Sunnis justify disinheriting Ali and attacking his family.

I mean, he was born in the Kaaba.

>>473704
I'm a strident atheist who thinks Islam belongs in a museum with every other religion. But I must admit, Islam has the right idea about basically everything except globalism and god existing.

>>475743
As far as I know most Sunnis like Ali and recognize him as one of the rightly guided Caliphs. Anyone saying otherwise is probably just butthurt about the very existence of Shiites and venting their anger in the wrong way.

>>475733
If you say so for yourself, it's fine I don't dwell in other people belief

>>475743
what I sad is a 'sunni' is turned to be another sect.

a sunni, a real one is actually asectarian and apolitics

the problem is the term is hijacked right after the first four caliph

>>475759
>>475784
I agree that they don't hate Ali etc

I can understand not caring about Ali's family and the 12 Imams but as a non-Muslim reading about Islam, it looks really obvious to me that Ali was the supposed to be the first Caliph.

>>475752
in order to be 'aware' muslim, one must acknowledged that god doesn't exist in material world.
a faith is a spiritual stance taken by knowing that fact first.

admitting that there is actually two 'god'
the first is a god with a name, with concept, with manifestation that human could think about .this god is creature,information,a brain activity.

second one is the truest,it doesn't follow human mind,forever unknown, untouchable, unbound by any concept.

position of faith (the first) is actually shadow of he second, that human couldn't help to create it to point or address he second

>>475796
It is actually a good things, he become he fourth.
that means islam doesn't have an absolute stance of succession
it can't be hereditary rule, or clan superiority

>>475812
Yeah but Ali being the first Caliph doesn't guarantee hereditary rule.

That happened basically because there was no other choice and everyone was attacking his family.

It's entirely possible that Ali, as first Caliph, would have passed succession by vote or some kind of skill-testing question.

>>475824
because abu bakr, and omar already tied mohammad with political marriage.
with aisha and hafsa

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I don't understand how westerners can convert to Islam

it seems like a cultural sort of thing, as in you have to know or be able to partially speak arabic in order to practice the religion

>inb4 but islam stretches all around the world and encompasses numerous other cultures in africa and asia

what about al-Shabab?

sub saharan africans speaking arabic is a bit strange

honest question

>>476289
Had a cousin convert to Islam. He learned Arabic soon after converting. Keeps trying to get me to join but I like drinking and pork to much. I wouldn't want to join anyway. I think all religions suck.

>>476289
not rly, if there's a koran in english, it's possible for english speaking peeps to read it and use it as a source, if there's sahih books in english, pretty much you won't need arabic at all.

>>474611
the book of tawhid for mohammed bin abdelwahhab

>>476289

It's probably similar to people converting to buddhism, they're all like 'muh west', 'muh modern life', 'muh oppressive culture'

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first answer me following

why did they kill eachother over a pumice

what the fuck is beneath the kaaba

and why is every old arabic font round but the oldest is square pic related

>>476289
I don't understand how westerners can convert to Islam

it seems like a cultural sort of thing, as in you have to know or be able to partially speak arabic in order to practice the religion


//I don't know, I'm not westerner. but for me, to be a muslim you don't need to know arabic or holding arabic culture in high regard.

What you need to do is just to agree that god is exist, and the most appropriate name for this god is 'allah', and this allah in the past giving a lot of prophet to mankind, moses, jesus (maybe buddha out of cultural sphere) and the last is mohammad.
why he is the last?(most of muslim don't know or too much influenced by their teacher or propagandist)

because human doesn't need prophet anymore.quran should already give human insight of realism (in the same light like realism is not blatantly copy-pasting il principe).

so each human has initiative to make him/herself their own prophet

>>476727
political claims
ka'ba is empty

>>473587
we can't seriously discuss islam without discussing it's judaic influence, particularly the talmudic academies in babylonia

>>473789
Not a good comparison. The Nazis were objectively good for Europe, they precipitated a conflict that resulted in an almost complete annihilation of conventional warfare.

Muslims are objectively bad, they rape and chop heads off and that's about it.

Rather than call these threads /islam
I propose we call them /slam/

>>475722
>thagut
reminds me to Al Qaidah rethoric.

>>476289
Somalians are regarded as "honorary arabs," they're closer to Ethiopian & Arabs rather than the "sub-saharan african." Being that close to arab peninsula, sure they had much contact since early time.

>>473704
>there's something about a noble, dignified, god-fearing arabian/desert civilization that's always tickled my fancy

And this kind of faggot tourist babble is what encourages 3d gen immigrant kids to join jihadist groups. Stop praising certain qualities of a civilization if you don't really want to import them, you fucking romantic fag.

>>479589
>Equating praising the qualities of another civilization with wanting to import them
shiggy diggy doo

if Muhammad spread islam by the sword (and commanded his followers to do the same), why is it bad for ISIS to do so?

As a Westerner, I will say that Islam's doctrine is admirable to me on the following points:

>abhorrence of drunkenness
>role of women
>strict monotheism

However, the suppression of music and art I cannot help but find distasteful.

>>476289
What I'm curious about is why would a Christian convert to Islam, effectively going from a god who's your father and teacher first and foremost, to one who is more distant and will punish the fuck out of you if you drink alcohol, eat pork, or don't refuse core parts of your previous belief.

disgusting mongols ruined everything with siege of baghdat. islam would be way way more advanced and developed if mongols weren't cancerous piece of fucks

>>480114
It's been speculated that China might have gone through the beginnings of an Industrial Revolution in the 13th century had the Mongols not attacked.

It's pretty interesting how the Southern Song Empire was developing right before they got rekt.

>>476711
buddhism is a fuckton better than islam

>>480152

Nevertheless, westerners probably convert to islam for the same reasons, they want to 'try out' non-western ways of looking at the world

>>474777
>It needs a return.

A return to what?

Isn't this exactly what those wahhabist and salafist preachers talk about - 'a return' and yet look at those who follow that creed most closely - see how bloody and violent they are.

I think the idea of a 'pure and clean' Islam in the days of the prophet is mythologised and become a unhealthy goal to strive toward. Afterall, Islam is something that had a heavy social and political revolution going along with it than being 'just another religion' - and Islam has syncretised and changed between cultures and places throughout history. It;s literally ignoring or discarding centuries upon centuries of study and thought in interpreting the Qu'ran - and why? Is it all illegitimate? Was there not strife in the prophets time and in the immediate aftermath deciding upon his successor. Even the prophets own great-grandson(?) was killed as an infant. What too of the Riyadh wars where so much of the arabian peninsula rejected Islam upon the prophets death and those wars were made to bring them back in to the fold?

I really don't understand this talk about 'a return'.

>>480071
>and will punish the fuck out of you

Hell still exists in Christianity no?

>>479568
He's actually giving an explanation and you tell him to fuck off.

/pol/ everybody

>>473587
COOL CLOCK AHMED

>>473587
What's the relation between Islam and miracles? I've heard that when Muhamed was challenged on why he could not produce miracles, he answered he was there to spread the word of Allah, not to make miracles.
But I also heard of stories of him riding a flying horse to Jerusalem, and breaking the Moon in two or something.
Are those stories from the Quran, if not, where did they come from? And are they considered miracles?

>>480452
You don't automatically go to Hell if you're not a believer, or if you are a homosexual, and Jesus didn't prescribe death to people who twisted the real version of God.

>>473704
It feels like you stole all of the thoughts right out of my head.

>>481048
Quran 54.1 and 17.1. These are both considered miracles but technically they were god nudging Muhammad along, anything done by Muhammad miraculously is ultimately attributed to an act by god. Because from an Islamic perspective man has no power except what god allows. It's not really the same thing as Jesus who was himself god-like to an extent, it was more like a human receiving divine intervention at the proper times. This can go on in a long line of technicalities because Muslims get ultra autistic about god being one and above all, suggesting that something else has a power equal to god on its own implies something in some respect rivals or is a partner to god which implies paganism or polytheism which to Muslims is super ultra mega double heresy do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars.

>>473587
>Hey guise I was meditating in a cave when an angel appeared to me and told me some stuff he said was from god!!
>Oh rly Mohamed, gee, I totally believe you!

What the fuck is it with morons buying into this bullshit...

>>482793

>implying Mohamed wasn't visited by an alien

>>482805
>implying that Mohamed didn't just lie his ass off for power.....like every other religious piece of shit "leader"

>>482814

>implying all religions weren't seeded by ancient aliens for their own ulterior purposes
>implying miracles, angels, gods, and magic weren't just primitive humans interpreting aliens and their technology into their own cultural and linguistic context

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>>480031
>Islam
>suppressing music and art
Don't know shit desu

>>482827
I'd believe THAT bullshit before I'd believe "muh bibel! muh curan!"

>>480025
it isn't bad, ISIS is the purest form of Islam, when Islam was a badass religion of conquerors, its these "hurr religion of peace" retards that misrepresent Islam.

>>480071
If anything you're describing Christianity, which prevents anyone not baptized no matter how good their worldly actions from being saved. One of the most repeated ideas in the Qur'an is that God forgives easily and judges everyone individually and fairly whether believer or not.

>>480152
>guys, like, INTERDEPENDENT ORIGINATION LMAO whoa

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>>482876
>which prevents anyone not baptized no matter how good their worldly actions from being saved

>>481404
>You don't automatically go to Hell if you're not a believer
John 3:16
>or if you are a homosexual
Leviticus 18:22
>Jesus didn't prescribe death to people who twisted the real version of God.
Maybe not death since he couldn't harness the power for that, but he damned them
Matthew13: 41-42

>>482890
I agree, it's a silly idea not fitting of a God that is supposed to be omniscient and caring.

>>482906
thats why it isn't true.

>>482906
That is why icons are not made out of straw.

>>482920
>>482923
>You don't have to be cleansed of original sin to get to heaven
This is literally heresy. Enjoy hellfire.

>>482901
>>You don't automatically go to Hell if you're not a believer
>John 3:16

That just says those who do believe are automatically assured that they will not perish, it still doesn't prove that the opposite is automatic itself to perish.

>>482980
>16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
>whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life
Not perishing and having eternal life are very clearly dependent on believing in him. It's right there. But even if that's not good enough, it continues:
>17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
>18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

>>482996
And then they were silent.

>>474638
>Do you think arabs already had an organized and institutionalized islam before they took land from Persia and Byzantium, or was islam heavily reformed and "invented" as an organized religion upon the arabs meeting capable and seasoned theologians in the cities they conquered, especially jews?

The whole base was already there. The idea of establishing a worldwide nation, of a system of immutable and eternal laws of nature, of returning mankind to the path of righteousness, all that emerges with Muhammad. On the other hand, law, jurisprudence and philosophy have suffered strong influences from other cultures.

>Do you think the arab conquests were driven by religious fever and were "holy wars", or were they political imperialism, and only excused by religion, and had religion used to recruit soldiers and as propaganda?

Neither. I mean, a bit of political imperialism. Economic interests. Roman and Persian Empires had virtually ceased their trade by the Periplus of the Sea of Eritrea. And the Hejaz merchants depended on it. They lost customers, lost suppliers. And then they had an ideology that proposed to literally implode borders. The same insurmountable by the tariffs, the same suffocated by taxes. It was like putting two and two together.

>Do muslims like or hate mongols, considering the mongols both destroyed some of the most powerful muslim states, and they themselves founded some of the most powerful muslim states?

The Mongols were extremely destructive, incredibly lethal. The contemporaries saw as Magog. But the generations passed. The Turks were Islamized. Mongol generals were Islamized. Doves, even the Genghis Khan's grandson was reversed. In the end, a guy who claimed to be the "Khan of Khans" was sworn Caliph. Think of the Germanic barbarians.Invaded, trounced everything in its path, but in the end, were acculturated, and nobody cares about the fact that once they looted everything they could reach.

>>473921
Your government and you're brothers in arms literally support and secure the root of the cancer in Islam, Saudi Arabia. No KSA = 80 % of terrorism gone.
Rest can be easily dealt with with a mixture of PR and military/intelligence operations.

>>474458
I think its possible, but only if its attempted in the right way,if people try to shoe horn their agenda in the Reformation process or Saudi Arabia is allowed to participate in any meaningful way then its a doomed mission.

>>474638
>cont.
>>483130
>Do modern muslims believe their scripture and myths the same way that creationist christians do, that god created the world 6000 years ago, everything was made in a day, boku haram, etc, or do they accept science and think of islam as only a cultural and moral codex, not a literal one?

The Quran does not draw myths. Also - by express provision - it can not be interpreted literally in all cases. Which leaves plenty of room for speculation. In the past, one of the great philosophical discussions was whether the universe was uncreated and eternal, or if it was created and finite. Wondered a lot about the age of the earth, of humanity, and the nature of life. However, I know of no religious - Muslim or Christian - to consider their holy book as a mere "cultural and moral codex".

>Do you as muslims drink alcohol and eat halal meats? As in, are you good, proper muslims, or just "muslim enough"? In that spirit, do you feel a reform of islam in order to fir in the 21th century is required?

I do my best. Reforming Islam? That makes no sense, ever. It is for trying to reform Islam that the present situation settled.

>>473587
man just so u know i respect ur religion, i think islam is beautiful and strong at the same time, its a good practical religion

>>480464
I haven't been on /pol/ for more than a year though
His posting style is atrocious

>>483311
thanks sweden

>>484266
he's obviously not a native english speaker nigga, calm yourself

>>482996
bumping for Christians BTFO

>>484286
Neither am I.

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>>476289
It's mainly so you can be a pirate and have sex slaves

>Around 1603, Ward was pressed into the Royal Navy, where he was placed in the Channel Fleet and served aboard a ship named the Lyon's Whelp. After two weeks he and a group of about 30 of his colleagues deserted and stole a small 25-ton barque from Portsmouth Harbour. Ward's comrades elected him captain, one of the earliest precedents for pirates choosing their own leader. They sailed to the Isle of Wight and captured another ship, the Violet, (which Ward promptly renamed Little John) a ship rumoured to be carrying the treasure of Roman Catholic refugees. However, the ship turned out to be empty of treasure, but the enterprising Ward used her to cunningly capture a much larger French ship.

>Ward and his men sailed to the Mediterranean where he was able to acquire a warship of thirty-two guns which was renamed The Gift[6] and began attacking merchantmen for the next two years. While at Salé, Morocco in 1605 several English and Dutch sailors, including Richard Bishop and Anthony Johnson, joined Ward's crew and the following year (August, 1606) Ward arranged with Cara Osman to use Tunis as a base of operations in exchange for which Osman would get first refusal of all goods. From this base, Jack Ward was easily able to capture several valuable merchant ships, including the 60 ton Reniera e Soderina.

>He accepted Islam along with his entire crew, changed his name to Yusuf Reis and married an Italian woman while he continued to send money to his English wife. In 1612 a play called A Christian Turn'd Turk was written about his conversion by the English dramatist Robert Daborne.

>Ward continued raiding Mediterranean shipping, eventually commanding a whole fleet of corsairs, and whose flagship was a Venetian sixty-gunner. He profited by his piracy, retiring to Tunis to live a life of opulent comfort until 1622, when at the age of 70 he reportedly died from the plague.

>>473587
What would be a good book/movie/whatever to introduce me to Islam, specifically the theological system. I know about No God but God but I've been told not to trust Aslan. Something traditional would be nice as long as it isn't 22 books fawning over God and the Emperor like the Christians.

>>486828
Ward was a pirate before he became a Muslim.

>>487126
Aslan's not bad, he's just intro-tier. Read a Qur'an with commentary like Yusuf Ali, Understanding the Qur'an: Themes and Style, and Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence. If you like stuff about Sufism dig into Alone with the Alone by Henry Corbin.

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>>478747
>Not a good comparison. The Nazis were objectively good for Europe

>>476289
>sub saharan africans speaking arabic is a bit strange

Somalis are not sub saharan africans, they're afro-asiatics. Also they've been in contact with the Arab world for centuries. In fact they're principal to one of the major Islamic jurisprudence schools of sunni islam, the hanafi school.

Would you care bringing forth any evidence whatsoever that a) the Israelites were in Egypt, as the Quran says, and that b) the Kaaba was built by abraham?

>>488738
>Somalis are not sub saharan africans
But they are?

>>473587
Islam is basically everything I am and I am catholic christian, the only thing I do is eating meat other than that I am a virgin, straight edge guy, and no, I dont look like a neckbeard

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>>488738
>Somalis are not sub saharan africans
but senpai

Question for anyone here, religious religious in some way (Muslim or Christian or otherwise).

Why do you believe in God? Particularly why do you only accept your version of God?

>>482996
> Not perishing and having eternal life are very clearly dependent on believing in him

Now about you prove that perishing is the same thing as Hell. Clearly nonbelievers do not go to heaven but kindly give proof that they are PUNISHED for nonbelief rather than simply dying like anything else.

>>480025
ISIS are very 'devout' Muslims who use a literal interpretation of Islam. However, Muslims who seek to evolve their religion to fit in with modern times view their interpretation as wrong. You can't really define Islam as having a single set of beliefs because there are so many sects.

>>490757
Personal experience.

>Particularly why do you only accept your version of God?
What other major religion says God is literally love?

>>490771
ISIS are extremely modernist. Modernist Wahhabism in general is, in the same way as Orthodox Judaism and Christian Puritanism are modernist--that is, it is a modernist reaction against modernism, and thus it driven by reaction against the present more than continuation of the past.

What is the best book of Islamic Apologetics and proof of theism in general?

How do Muslims deal with the objective error in the Koran when it lists Mary as being part of the trinity

>>490779
What do you mean by modernist here?

The thing that surprised me when reading the Quran is how boring, poorly structured and repetitive it was. The most pressing question of Islamic history is how such a poor tradition captivated so many for so long.

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>>490968

>>490851
I mean they autistic about their religion in a way that would befuddle their forerunners. Islam from back in the day prohibited iconography (generally), for instance, but they never went around just wrecking churches or synagogues (maybe converting them into mosques sometimes), just for having iconography such action would have appeared insane to them. Wahhabi is based more on reacting against modernism, which is something pre-modern ideologies were never about, because they didn't have modernism to react against.

>>490763
Christianity is Sophism: the religion

>>490834
The Qur'an never says that Mary is part of the Trinitarian formula.

>>491822
5:116

>>490773
>Personal experience.
Such as? Not that anon but I'm genuinely interested

>>490834
If I recall correctly there were Christian sects in Arabia at the time that included Mary in their worship.

>>476570
>Keeps trying to get me to join
Don't even consider, it is a pyramid scam.

>>494543
Such as?

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>>475688
All those mudshits that die from Russian bombs are in fact sacrifice to Rod, so eat shit Ahmed.

>>494722
fuck off, mushrik

>>494674
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Trinity
"The Qur'anic interpretation of trinitarian orthodoxy as belief in the Father, the Son, and the Virgin Mary, may owe less to a misunderstanding of the New Testament itself than to a recognition of the role accorded by local Christians (see Choloridians) to Mary as mother in a special sense."[12]

Word of advice: there are very few 'objective errors' in the world's main religions. Religious beliefs are extremely hard to prove or disprove.

>>497118
Choloridians still existed in the 7th century?

>>497144
Some scholars reject the interpretation according to which the Qur'an is said to assert that Mary was part of the Trinity, since the relevant statements can be seen as emphasizing the purely human nature of Mary to reinforce the Islamic belief in the purely human nature of Jesus, whilst also serving as a general restatement of the central Islamic doctrine of Tawhid, the pure oneness of God.

>>497156
Do you awlays talk in Wikipedia quotes?

>>497198
I was answering your question.

>>497202
Were you?

>>480434
Not him, but maybe a return to the religion's state before fundamentalist movements such as Wahhabism should be implemented. After all, many problems have arisen from Wahhabism, and imo pre-Wahhabist Islam seemed cash.

>>480434
You see,a lot of people talk about a much needed reformation of Islam, yet this has already taken place. Wahabism is a reformation of Islam, and not a good one I'll tell you that. The return would be to remove Wahabism and stop this shit with Sunni, Shia etc. and call everyone who believes in Allah muslim, and nothing else

>>480071
Eating and drinking haram things aren't things that you would be severely punished for in Islam. Heck on the opposite end praying doesn't give you much "good points" either. You don't need to even be Muslim. It's pretty hard to get into hell in Islam.

>>499388
You would have to ressurect the pedo warlord himself in order to attain that.

>>499388

>stop this shit with Sunni, Shia etc

That's not neccessarily a product of Wahhabism, there have always been sectarian tensions within Islam. What you're alluding to is takfirism, which *is* a product of Wahhabism.

>call everyone who believes in Allah muslim

You realise that includes Christians and Jews? Muhammad is what distinguishes Islam from the other Abrahamics, not God.

This thread went to shit at the first few posts.

>>500403
It's been alright.

>>500403
Did it?

>>500577
Meant after, and yes.

>>500910
Nah it didn't, it's p good imo.

Apologies for posting solely about the part of islam with the worst PR, but

>>490779
>ISIS theology is a reaction against the present rather than an attempted continuation of the past
Is ISIS wahhabist?

>>503780

>Is ISIS wahhabist?

Yes, absolutely. Rabid iconoclasm and takfirism (denouncing other Muslims as "not real Muslims - this is a very modern phenomenon) are the usual giveaways.

>>473587
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

>spending a thread on a faith based on destruction and death

>>473587
I've been enjoying the Broken Crescent mod, I heartily recommend it. Been reuniting the Muslim world as the Abbasid caliph.

>>503842
>denouncing other muslims as not real muslims
>modern pheonomenon.

Actually it's the revival of a very old Islamic sect. Look into the Kharjites, basically they pissed off so many other people they ended up getting themselves killed or losing members who initially joined.

>>497205
Do you only communicate in questions?

>>508308
Only when I'm asking questions.

>>474611
Quran

>>490834
Can I get a bump on this question especially the first question

Also can the anon in>>491822 respond to >>494432

>>503842
Thanks for your response.

It's interesting how little there is written about the theological similarity between ISIS and Saudi Arabia (in english at least), as far as I know the only two wahhabi states.

>>504805
>http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Asking a muslim "do you support making the sharia the law of your country" is a trick question really. There isn't a single Muslim who is devout in their faith who doesn't support sharia law in their country in some way, because the sharia encompasses every facet of social life. Even prayer and the poor tax is dictated by the sharia

For most Muslims, asking that question is like asking "do you believe your country should encourage charity to the poor, to the orphans and should promote family values and have laws against usury, murder and sexual licentiousness?"

It doesn't mean "do you think we should kill Christians, and stone homosexuals?" I'm sure there are some Muslims who feel that way, but to put it this way if you have two Muslims arguing about whether an "Islamic government" has the right to give Christians money or tax breaks to build a new church for their congregation or something of that kind of nature, even if one says no and the other says yes, chances are they are both saying yes and/or no on the basis of Shari'ite principles.

The problem is Western people's conception of shariah is solely that of the Wahabis, when even some of the most liberal, anti-Wahabi, modernist Muslims believe in such ideals based on their own understandings of the Shariah.

Again, the question is a trick question and tells one nothing about the actual political or social views of the people in those countries. Muslims have supported everything from monarchism to straight communism on the basis of the "shariah" before. And places like Iran give money to Christian and Jewish groups to maintain their religious centers on the basis of the Shariah while some other Muslim countries burn churches in the name of the shariah at the same time. People in the Sudan and in Lebanon are often worlds apart in how they interpret the Shariah.

>>513633
Doesn't shariah always mean having a special tax for Jews and Christians though?

>>513913

The point I was making was that whether or not a Muslim believes that is a necessary component of an Islamic society at all times is almost always based on their understanding of the shariah.

Even gay and transgender Muslims for heaven's sake believe in following "the shariah" or a society based on shariah law most of the time and would probably answer yes to the question on whether government should follow the shariah, which in their mind would include tolerance of their lifestyle.

Asking more specific questions like "Do you believe that your government needs to have an official religion?" followed by "Do you believe an Islamic government should extend tolerance to people of other faiths? Which faiths? What representation would they have in said government? Would they need to pay a tax? How big is the tax supposed to be? To what extent should they be allowed to express their religious identity publicly?"etc. These are far more effective questions. For many Muslims, following the shariah does not pertain solely to external ritual habits or penal codes, but moreso to the following of religious and moral principles and where the external implementations of the law (like the idea of a dhimmi system) should be flexible. And for many too, the image in their minds of a shari'ite based society is that of a society not built on puritanical religious laws governing private life (which is something for the individual to handle) but more about social justice and equity. There are without a doubt, many Muslims whose understanding of the "shariah" is that of a puritanical set of indisputable religious penal codes which cannot be challenged under any rational/religious pretense, but the question mentioned doesn't help us identify them apart from the others. Both Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda believe in implementing the "shariah" but the two groups couldn't be further apart in their methods or interpretations or the lifestyles of their most devout members.

>>480025
Because to begin with Islam is lead by pious, and virtuous men, who ruled a caliphate that the majority of the conquered actually preferred. They were really good people for the most part, especially for their time, society, etc.

ISIS are faggots. The only thing they have in common is that they both call themselves muslims, and there is fighting involved.

It's like asking: "If Jesus called himself Christ why can't I"- actions must be judged in context.

>>514087
So basically you're saying I will always get taxed for being a Christian in a country governed by the Shariah?

>>514109
Are you saying all those people that got conquered by the Rashidun were asking dor it? Victim-blaming much?

>>514126

I'm saying that whether a Muslim supports a secular government without a tax or a non-secular government with a tax, whether a Muslim supports a small tax that is easy for you to pay in exchange for social services or an exorbitant tax meant to humiliate you and remind you you're inferior, it is always justified by appeal to the "shariah"

Even the most secular and religiously pluralist Muslim believes he's following the shariah.

What is a good version of the Quran to read?

>>514160
Aren't secular government and Shariah incompatible though?
Muslims can think whatever they want, that doesn't mean some of them aren't objectively wrong. But I get what you are saying.

>>514144

Well, lots of them were non-Chalcedonians, so they would have benefited from Islamic rule. That's part of the reason they expanded so incredibly quickly

>>514197
Traditional Sharia (preSaudi Arabia) is derived from consensus from scholars. In essence, a more liberal scholar or a more conservative scholar can make or annul a law based on their interpretation of the Sunnah and the Quran and convincing others that that is a more probable interpretation.

>>514241
So all we have to do is kill all conservative scholars? Will that make Islam OK again?

>>514249
Not really because some conservative scholars actually have a point. What would make Islam great again is money. The Middle East is poor right now and the only people with money are the fundamentalist Muslims. Money = Power. Power = Influence. Ergo; The fundamentalists call the shots.

>>514144
>Are you saying all those people that got conquered by the Rashidun were asking dor it? Victim-blaming much?

He's not victim blaming, he's stating a historical fact.

Many of the Christians and Zoroastrians the early Arab Muslims conquered did not oppose the conquest because they hated the previous orders that much more. The Muslims may have been infidels, but they didn't usually concern themselves with the inter-sectarian rivalries of the Christians and the early Muslim conquerors usually built their settlements away from the non-Muslim areas and kept to themselves. During the early Rashidun period, the Arabs mainly saw Islam as an Arab thing and so put little effort into converting the local populations, who normally converted for their own reasons, usually in hopes of receiving benefits for converting, and who eventually rebelled conquered more of the frontier when they didn't get it cause they weren't Arabs. But the areas the Muslims conquered remained mostly non-Muslim for at least 200 years more. Even Iberia was still mostly Christian after the Muslims conquered it.

The regions that fell to the Arab conquerors mainly fell because

A.) The Roman and Persian empires exhausted themselves fighting each other
B.) Political and religious rivalries did not encourage many people to band together to resist the conquerors, who didn't seem to care who was a Nestorian or a Melkite or a Monophysite.
&
C.) The Arab conquerors were more concerned with their own rivalries than converting others

The Arabs actually didn't want to convert the people they conquered because then they couldn't make as much money off of them, which is why they started treating Persian, African and Roman converts like second class citizens more than the non-Muslims.

>>514260
So what would whappen if Iran gets wealthy? Will that make things better? Or are Shi'as too irrelevant compared to Sunnis cuz of their sheer numbers?
Or will it make things even worse cuz fundamentalist Sunnis will become even more anti-Shi'ah and intolerant?

>>514281
>they started treating Persian, African and Roman converts like second class citizens more than the non-Muslims
Wasn't that only Umayyads though?

>>514315

>Wasn't that only Umayyads though?

It goes back to the second and third caliph. Under the second caliph, there was discrimination towards new converts vs old converts, which was used as a way of discriminating against non-Arabs.

The reason the Persians liked Ali too was because he opposed this and didn't favor Arabs over non-Arabs during his short term.

>>514365
Why are Sunnis calling them "rightly guided" then?!

Lets say i want 72 virgins. Can i shoot up a local police station or do i need to suicide bomb something.

>>514399

cause they're mistaken

Or to be more scholarly about it. Most of the foundations of Sunnism can be traced to the Abbasid period and it's not until much later that this idea emerges of the "four rightly guided caliphs".

In a lot of ways, the idea of the "rashidun period" is a case of Sunnis looking back on history from a period where things have apparently gone wrong. Especially during and after the Umayyad (whom many Sunnis would agree went astray), there were a lot of Muslims who started looking back at a period when things were "better" and some settled on this idea that the first four caliphs were all ideal Muslim rulers, being companions of the Prophet, and so held them up as the standard for later caliphs to follow. This was also a reaction against the very narrow and specific claims of the Shi'ites to authority, which was basically "if you're not descendant of Muhammad through Ali and Fatima (Muhammad's daughter), you can't lead"

The problem is that Sunni arguments for this idea of the four caliphs and that all the companions of Muhammad were righteous depend a lot on rationalizing the differences in how each caliph ran their administration or in trying to explain what appear to be obvious conflicts of interests and opinion between the companions. Shi'ites on the other hand differentiate between the companions a lot more and weigh their truth and piety on a scale of proximity to Ali, Fatima and their children. For many Sunnis today, all the companions are equally fallible/infallible, while Shi'ites believe most of the companions, including the caliphs before Ali, went astray by not swearing absolute devotion to the House of the Prophet.

>>514294
If Iran gets wealthy is becomes less a puppet of Russia and more an independent state in the ME, it'd probably follow course with Fatamid Egypt with it's Sunni/ Shia inhabitants living together with minor scuffles here and there but overall a stabilized region. Fundamentalist Sunni's will turn their attention away from the West, and more towards Iran. What would later on happen probably is the Twelver school of Islam and some of the major schools of Sunni thought (Shafi, Hanafi, and Maliki as Hanbali is basically Wahabiism prime) would coelesce on matters of jurisprudence but still disagree on the concept of a Caliph and his succession but because Shias dominate the political spectrum, and the Shia concept of the descendant of the Prophet returning to establish the new Caliphate is the only way to correctly establish a caliphate, the government would probably treat people like ISIS with extreme prejudice while turning a blind eye to other Sunnis. Honestly, the same could happen in reverse if a country like Egypt got rich as well because the precedent for reconcilling Sunni/Shia differences was established in 1950 when Al'Azhar recognized the Twelver school of Shia of Islam as a legitimate form of Isla (although due to the increasing presence of Wahabbism in Al'Azhar, they have since renounced that recognition as of late 2010s I believe).

>>473587
is it wrong to say that in many areas that have been islamicized, they were arabized as well?

like palestine, lebanon, etc

>>514574
Not really, whats funny though was that it was done by complete accident as the areas that were Islamized were done by people (The Abbasids) wanting to take away the concept of Arab-only Islam.

>>490773
Hinduism.

>>514587

It mostly has to do with language. Islam facilitated the spread of Arab language which acted as a vehicle for Arab culture. But the Hijazi Arabs hardly mixed with these populations at all. Even in Egypt, where people consider themselves Arab, only a small percentage of the gene pool has anything in common with people from peninsula. The average Egyptian looks the same way they did before the Arab conquest and possible even the same way they did during the time of Cleopatra. But they consider themselves Arab cause that's their language.

>>514587
so how did they get to the way they are, today?

also, this concerns north africa and the sudan etc

>>514645
>so how did they get to the way they are, today?

Islam.

And Arab Christianity

>>514638
[spoiler]Oh god, you just set another BLACK VS WHITE EGYPTIAN THEORY debate in motion.[/spoiler]

>>514655
so their religion spreading literally changed their main language? that sounds more like colonialism than anything else 2bh family

>>514670
>Be Chrisitan
>Be under Islamic Empire
>Suddenly allowed to be Muslim
>Convert so I don't have to be damn taxes.
>Have to go to office to take Shahada so the Gubment doesnt keep taxing me.
>Have to learn what the fuck I'm saying so I don't keep getting taxed.
>Better learn this chicken scratch then.
>Govenor keeps sending letters in chickenscratch to take my money.
>finally learn enough chickenscratch to reply "By the Prophet of Allah, I don't need to pay tax you fuckwit."
>finally don't have to pay taxes


So yeah, basically a really passive aggressive form of Colonialism.

>>514587
They still used Arabic as lingua franca and not Aramaic or Greek like it had been before them so the population shifted to being Arabophone.
Also the fact that you have to perform salah in Arabic etc must have contributed a lot too.

>>514670
>so their religion spreading literally changed their main language? that sounds more like colonialism than anything else 2bh family

The Qur'an was written/spoken in Arabic and the orthodox view was that it couldn't be translated (not well, anyway). For North Africans, Persians, Turks and others newly converted, some knowledge of Arabic was a must just to pray.

>>514698
>>514712

There's also a few other elements

Even as Arabs developed an interest in the cultures they conquered, they didn't really have a huge interest in learning other languages. So they hired Christians who knew their language to translate texts for them.

>be Ayyrab
>wanna read Aristotle
>don't wanna learn Greek
>hire Greek Orthodox scribe who learned Arabic from merchants to translate Physics for me
>read Physics
>any Christian who wants to talk Aristotle with me has to know Arabic.

Among the Christian communities, proficiency in Arabic and multiple languages (including Frank ie Latin) became a key to earning high paying jobs, not just in government, but also as scribes and translators and diplomats. Eventually too, it became fashionable for Christians to learn Arabic so they could discuss politics, philosophy and read and write poetry and become the best medieval rapper they could be. So, the monks started writing the Bible and liturgy in Arabic so Christians could understand them.

>>514638
Language is not identity. the idea that people living in egypt are arabs started when european metrics for determining identity were adopted with the creation of the nation state disease in the middle east. it is the europeans that claim that if you speak arabic you are an arab. this was never the way how the people in the middle east defined themselves. there are still original arabs in the mid east and they are proud of their heritage and do not like the fact that their identity has been hijacked by western models of thought and imposed on the peoples of the mid east.

also what is a langauge? the arabic spoken by the egyptian is nothing like the one spoken by a saudi or and iraqi. what is langauge. you can say that the word arabic is just another word for semite and that when they say that egyptians are speaking arabic they are just speaking a semitic language. what determines that two langauges are different and not just dialects of the same language. I mean what determimnes that aramaic or syriac or hebrew are not just different dialects of arabic. what i am trying to say is that arabic is as different from aramiac as egyptian or north african arabic is from syrain or iraqi arabic. yet they are called the same langauge. there is no cultural colonialism that came with islam. if anything, the euroeapn nation state disease is responsible for enforcing an arab identity on people simply because in the eyes of euroeapns these people spoke arabic and that europeans think that identity is defined by the language one speaks.

much of the discussion in this thread about how egyptiand or syrians became arab is ridiculous. different semitic languages were already widespread in the middle east, even before islam. calling these different languages or different dialcts of the same language is just semantics.

the original arabs even today maintain racial purity and would not consider anyone an arab just because they spoke the same language.

>>514698
there is too much projection of euroeapn history upon the middle east. the middles eastern cultures are nothing like europe. in europe feudal kings forced their identity on the population because they wanted the popultion to be loyal to them for ever and did not care about any values except what sutied their degenarate selves. in the middle east people only marry with certain tribes and form endogamous groups. because these people have certain values that they want to maintain and they do not want other people's values to touch their own. such people do not go around forcing their identity on others. in europe people are defined by lines drawn on maps by their feudal masters. but in the middle east people have always been defined by the endogamous group they belong to, regardless of what geographic area they occupy.

your entire scenario is far fetched and is only remotely possible in the main cities that were on the trading highways. the people living in the rural areas went on with their lives as normal. much of these people did not have tax collectors to worry about or laws of cities to follow.

>>514923
>I mean what determimnes that aramaic or syriac or hebrew are not just different dialects of arabic.
Probably the fact that they did not develop from Classical Arabic...

>what i am trying to say is that arabic is as different from aramiac as egyptian or north african arabic is from syrain or iraqi arabic
Source? I realize that dialects of Modern Arabic vary a lot but isn't what you said an exaggeration?

Also, you aren't a native Arabic speaker, are you?

>>515039

>Source? I realize that dialects of Modern Arabic vary a lot but isn't what you said an exaggeration?

He's right. If a Moroccan met an Iraqi they'd probably end up switching to English

>>515045
That's not what I asked. He said that the dialects are as different as Arabic and Aramaic or Arabic and Hebrew.

>>515058

Yeah I can confirm that's bullshit

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>>473587
So guys I heard there is actually more than one god.

>>515039
i am not a native arabic speaker but i know that aramiac was probably the closest to arabic of all semitic languages.

>Probably the fact that they did not develop from Classical Arabic...


you have missed my point. i was implying that you can use the word arabic to mean any semitic language. since the word semite is new and was not used in the past. since the semitic languages descend from the same general language they can also be called dialects of the same langauge.

there was a christian palestinian who did a very good job of speaking against the westernization of middle eastern identities. by that i mean calling everyone an arab just because they speak arabic.

>>514923
This might be a speculation on my part but I think most Arab speaking Muslims would regard themselves as Arabs even without the rize of nationalism simply because people want to be descended from conquerers and not the conquered.
Most people just want to be able to say WE WUZ X/Y/Z and nationalism kinda exploits that part of human nature

>>515105

Lots of Lebanese and Egyptians eschew Arab identity because of muh pheonicians and muh pharoahs respectively

so yes, you're right, but wrong

>>515082
>Townes Van Zandt

I automatically value your opinions higher now.

>>515105


Arab nationalism was something that was championed and kickstarted by Christians or those from Christian families as well as other religious minorities as a way to unite Arab speaking countries against the West.

>>515124

well you can't really blame them. those minorities would have been in deep shit if those states had turned to religion as a social cohesive

>>515124

That's not surprising since only nationalism can rival the hold of the islamic ummah. For a christian, nationalism is going to be preferable

>>515105
even if an arab muslims in the middle east regards himself as an arab that does not mean that he is claiming descent from the islamic arab invaders. most people of the middle east remember their history and the identity of their ancestors. you forget that the middle east is still a tribal society. maybe the people living in the city do not keep up with tribal traditions but the ones in the rural areas remember who they are. and the middle eastern historians have also written enough about the tribes of the people who were part of the early islamic armies. you keep trying to project european mentality on to the middle east.

the only people who would lie about their descent are those thoroughly westernized. these people have broken with their tribal traditions and do not keep up with their ancestral lineage. these are also the people claiming to be descended from pheonecians and shit. this is similar to how during nazi germany millions of germans accepted the fact that their ancestors were aryans and that swastika was their cultural symbol. did these germans hear the words aryans or swastika from their fathers of grand fathers or great grandfathers. why did they so easily accept a fake history about themselves that was never mentioned to them by their own ancestors. this is because it is what happens in westernized systems. the entire nazi ideology was about creating a german identity where there was none before. and defining that identity in geographic terms. the same thing has happened in pakistan and india where an entire false history has been constructed, initially written down by the english. the nation state is the greatest propagator of lies. it is established with lies, maintained with lies and further grows in power with lies.

>>515099
>i was implying that you can use the word arabic to mean any semitic language
You can also use the word French/Castillian etc to refer to any Romance language just because they all come from Latin - literally your logic

>since the word semite is new and was not used in the past
So are most names for language families/branches

>since the semitic languages descend from the same general language they can also be called dialects of the same language
Boundaries between dialects and spearate languages are indeed blurry but what you are saying is absurd desu

>>515144
what hold did the idea of islamic ummah have over the christian. islamic ummah is not a state or any physical entity with institutions. it is merely an idea. it is a way of looking at oneself and looking at other muslims. geographicly defined nationalism is a lie propped up by tyranny and lies.

>>515169
what i am trying to say is that if you insist on calling aramiac syriac hebrew and arabic different languages then you must also say that egypts morrocans speak different langauges from gulf arabs which speak different languages from levantines.

>>515136
>>515144

The thing is, even the Arab nationalist Christians saw Muhammad as something of an Arab forefather and tried to secularize him as a figure for all Arabs, not just Muslims.

But this goes back centuries when Christians began adoptingArabic language which was largely informed by the Qur'an. It was always hard for Arab Christians to justify their Arab cultural identity which they largely owed to Muhammad's historical influence. Even Arabic Bibles and Christian writings often use Qur'anic terminologies. Christians would justify their own Arab identity by claiming Muhammad was not quite correct in his beliefs but still "blessed" or honorable by Christian standards or by even portraying him as a Christian whose teachings were perverted by the Jews.

There had always been a bit of tension between those Christians who wanted to be part of the greater Arab culture alongside the Muslims and those Christians who preferred that they should remain socially isolated and only interact with the "infidels" when it was most necessary.

>>515174
The dialects aren't as different as the languages though so you don't really have to.
Although I agree that maybe it would make more sense.
One should also note that Arabic isn't the only language with dialects that aren't mutually intelligible, it just happens to be so that Arabic has much more speakers than most other languages. Maybe in some time they indeed will be regarded as different languages.

>>515151
lmao all the tribals in the middle east have is some oral """history""" full of myths and dubious information that goes mostly as far as a few centuries back.

if they knew what their ancestors identified as we wouldn't have discovered so many unknown ancient peoples lel, I think you are a bit romanticizing here bud

>>476289

>1700 years earlier
>I don't understand how any Roman would adopt Christianity.

>>482793
If he was faking it, why would he meditate in that cave for the majority of his life before telling everyone about his revelations? Why not do it as soon as possible, to take power?

>>515234
those myths generally rhyme with the truth. they only have to be checked against other myths from other tribes to get a better understanding of history. i never said that the people in the middle east remember what happened thousands of years ago. they only remember history that is relevant to them and what happened thousands of years ago stopped being relevant. and what ever is still relevant is explained well enough by myths.

>>515248
well guess what many people have ancestors that converted a thousand years ago or a bit less/more, most people would regard that as being very remote and irrelevant

also it's bullshit, tribal peoples change their identity just as easy (well maybe I'm exaggerating a bit but still) as non-tribal peoples, I mean just look at Central Asia, it used to be Iranic and then got Turkicized. Only nowadays can we deduce the non-Turkic origin of some tribes from their names as well as haploshits

>>515313
>well guess what many people have ancestors that converted a thousand years ago or a bit less/more, most people would regard that as being very remote and irrelevant

unless their ancestral history claims that they were part of the original islamic armies they would not claim it themsleves. it does not matter if they remember when they converted.

>also it's bullshit, tribal peoples change their identity just as easy (well maybe I'm exaggerating a bit but still) as non-tribal peoples, I mean just look at Central Asia, it used to be Iranic and then got Turkicized. Only nowadays can we deduce the non-Turkic origin of some tribes from their names as well as haploshits

i never said people do not change. i was pointing out the western style outright lying about their own ancestors when their ancestors have no memory of such history and there are no history books that identity their tribal names with said history. this behavior is only prevalent in the more westernized people of the middle east. i am not sure how you would think that people in central asia becoming turks is the same thing. it is not as if they are lying about being turks. once they became turks they claimed to be turks. that is how populations changes.

>>474458

If anything, it's the extremists with their puritanism, fundamentalism, insistence on returning the religion to its roots, rejection of the existing orthodoxy, and violent opposition to the more heterodox, spiritual traditions that are the closest to engaging in a Reformation.

I mean, Salafism and Wahhabism are widely recognised as reform movements. It's not like the religious doctrines of extremist groups like ISIS are accepted by the Muslim orthodoxy either.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that Reformation = liberalisation or an end to religious violence.

>>515433
>Don't make the mistake of thinking that Reformation = liberalisation or an end to religious violence.

Yeah, even in Christian Europe this wasn't the case. Do people think that Calvin's Geneva was some bastion of liberalism or something?

>>515342
are you actually basing this on some sources or are you just saying whatever you think people do in your part of the world and projecting that on Arabic speaking Muslims? I would actually like to read something on this topic (tribal societies, their identity etc)

The thing is no one in Central Asia thought they had Iranic ancestors before modern times, sure they became Turks but they still had no idea what was before that. Where was their tribal history?

Also I wasn't really saying that in the context of your post about Germany. But still, what you're doing is treating tribal histories as mostly truthful because they come from your ancestors. They only loosely draw on actual events, they are still prone to falsification and fabrication too, so I really don't see that much difference between your example of Nazi Germany and tribal histories, the difference is you get the latter from your ancestors but it doesn't guarantee that it isn't full of shit and actually happened.
They weren't necessarily outright lying in Germany either (or in any other nation state) just misinterpreting evidence because of wishful thinking (WE WUZ shit) as well as other reasons.

I don't really see much difference between nation state history/identity and tribal history/identity, both are full of lies. In the end, all identities are built on lies tb.h

>>514587
>>514574
>>514698
>>514790
>Even as Arabs developed an interest in the cultures they conquered, they didn't really have a huge interest in learning other languages. So they hired Christians who knew their language to translate texts for them.

What happened was that the extended households of the 7th and 8th century Arab ruling elite, their children and grandchildren, servants, slaves, non-Arab in-laws, client families, etc, had multiplied over the course of three generations. During this period the Arab state had been mostly populated by local non-Arab speaking professionals continuing previous administrative organization, but afterwards the growing elite population began to overtake these positions or create new ones based on their household ranks within a noble family.

This new class spoke Arabic, the language of their households, and as it continued to grow it formed around its edges a mercantile and bureaucratic middle class which also spoke Arabic. In order to integrate into this new economic and administrative world the non-Muslim middle classes and old blood aristocrats Arabized.

Tax evasion was not an incentive, especially when early governors not only tried to restrict such conversion attempts but maintained tax burdens regardless of religion on non-Arabs. At the same time, non-Muslim tribute and tax collection was handled by proxy through their own community leadership, usually religious and educated. Plus, there was never any consistent rule on Muslims avoiding taxes, and despite religious and guild resistance Muslim rulers regularly passed, repealed, and passed again various non-Islamic taxes for any conceivable, taxable scenario and usually in disregard of religious affiliation. Conversion was mostly a result of political and social pressures from a more intolerant Muslim prince or a Muslim mob taking the opportunity to advance themselves at their non-Muslim neighbors' expense, as happened during anarchic periods.

>>515459
>I don't really see much difference between nation state history/identity and tribal history/identity, both are full of lies. In the end, all identities are built on lies tb.h

tribal history maybe myth but those myths are generally based on themes of the past that were true. i am talking about identity of peoples. whatever identity people remember themselves to be. the central asian that no longer remember their iranic ancestory simply stopped caring about it centruries ago. that is why they did not pass that knowledge down to future generations. that part of their history simply became irrelevant. but what they know about their current identity, customs and culture is true, unless they were taught some bull shit in westernized schools under the soviet system.

also if some members of a tribe invents lies about their history, it would be about a time that no one remembers and therefore irrelevant to them.

most of the populations in the mid east have the same way of remembering their ancestors as the afghans and pakistanis. this is because the populations of the mideast and afghan and pak come from the same cradle of the caucuses. they are therefore very similar in their behavior. i can recognize them to be the same as us in this regard based on what i have read about arabs and their love of history.

>>515497
>Conversion was mostly a result of political and social pressures from a more intolerant Muslim prince or a Muslim mob taking the opportunity to advance themselves at their non-Muslim neighbors' expense, as happened during anarchic periods.

I think most non-Muslims converted because they liked the religion for one reason or another because when non-Arab Muslim converts found their conversions didn't guarantee them any special privilege, they didn't really eschew the faith as much as attempt to challenge the claims of other Muslim rulers on the basis of Muslim principles or converted to sects of Islam that challenged said rulers' authority. Many Nubian slaves converted to Kharijism. Meanwhile, Persians became more and more attracted to emerging Sufism and Shi'ism that seemed to mesh well with their Zoroastrian or Manichaean heritage.

>>478700
>/I don't know, I'm not westerner. but for me, to be a muslim you don't need to know arabic or holding arabic culture in high regard.
most western muslims barely speak english.
allah, ummah,takfir, salaam, maghrib... can you stop using arabic words or phrases to say hi and use the same language you were born with?

>>515527
Yes, I would have clarified that the conversions I meant were those of 10th and 12th century Spain and 13th and 15th century Middle East, but I ran out of characters.

Most conversions outside the households of the ruling Arabs during the 7th and 8th century were indeed more spiritual, and sometimes syncretic and especially heterodox as part of a growing resistance to Umayyad political domination, which is why a large number of revolts in this period were not only raised and led by non-Arab Muslim converts, but were also joined by their non-Arab kin.

>>482901
>>or if you are a homosexual
>Leviticus 18:22
says nothing if homosexuals will end up in hell

>>515508
well as far as I undertsand people who say that they descend from Phoenicians do care about identities that were forgotten by their more recent ancestors, for them everything Arabic is associated with alien invaders and they have good reasons to think the way they do. what they want is to return to their "actual roots" and I don't see anything inherently bad in that

If their ancestors could change their identity (often involuntarily), deem some of their history irrelevant etc then why can't they do the same? just because some number of ancestors down the line carried their current identity? after all, identities change and why can't they revert to the one that they think is the original/native?

>>490834
>>494432
>>510904
>Mary is part of trinity in quran
Allahuma, which translation you use?

>And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

In this ayah Allah asked Jesus wether he told his follower to deify and worship him and his mother. Ofcourse Jesus answer that he did not tell something which is not his right.

learn to reading comprehension.

>>515625
nice taqiyya

>>515619
those claiming phoenician heritage have no evidence or reason or logic to claim it. this is not a case of people's culture changing organically from the grass roots. it is a case of centralized lie imposed from westernized elites. this is the same as people saying that the copts are real ancient Egyptians. in both cases it was the Europeans that invented histories of these peoples with evidence or reason to think so.

the creation of the state of israel and the jewish identity is also an example of this pehnomemnon. the descendents of people from the caucasus and europeans whose ancestors converted to judaism began claiming to be real hebrews only about 150 years ago with the coming on zionism. they even resurrected the hebrew language by taking a lot of pointers from arabic. such a thing is only possible when people abandon egalitarian tribal behavior and adopt feudalistic modern cultures. the fathers of zionism even invented history that contradicted what is written in the talmud. i do not think that all jews fall for that zionist written history, even if they are zionist jews. this is because when identities and histories are invented like this they have no connection to peoples cultures. i suggest reading books by Shlomo Sand on this subject. i believe one of his books is called how and when the jewish people were invented.

>>515641
you know nothing about islam. the catholic worship of marry and saints is a sign of shirk. shirk is associating anyone with the attributes of the creator other than the creator. according to islam the worship of mary by the catholics is thinking of her as a god. this is why many muslims, not just wahabbis, detest the worship of shrines by other muslims. asking some dead person to give you blessings is thinking they share some of the powers of the creator.

>>490834
>>494432

This is pure conjecture. The Arabic word for the "trinity" is never even used in the Quran. Not even once. Even the verse that says "say not: three. desist" doesn't even use the word Arabic speaking Christians normally use to refer to the trinity, which implies that the Muslim objection was not so much to the "trinity" as much as an understanding of the "trinity" that implied three gods. A Modalist or Emanationist interpretation of the trinity might even be more acceptable to Muslim theology, and evidence suggest many Muslims believed in some of holy triad or another which was intended to respect God's singular personhood.

One of the biggest Christian controversies just before Muhammad's arrival was the debate whether Mary was Theotokos or Christokos (God-bearer or Christ-bearer) which itself concerned the very nature of the relationship between the Son of God and the man Jesus Christ. Those who objected to Theotokos put forward that it practically elevated Mary too highly to that position which may be considered virtual godhood or at least the term gave such an impression.

5:116 is more likely addressing the Theotokos/Christokos controversy by siding with the Nestorian objections or addressing fringe pagan/Christian elements that actually elevated Mary to the status of a goddess, which is mentioned in the Christian heresiographies.

>>515641
Taqiyya isn't an actual concept in Islam. It is only found in Shia scripts. Nothing to do with the major body of Islam (Sunni)

>>515685
>this is why many muslims, not just wahabbis, detest the worship of shrines by other muslims

The veneration of saints and the pilgrimage to shrines to seek their blessings has been practiced by probably most Muslims throughout history. The Muslims who objected to it like Ibn Taymiyyah were widely reviled. But even Ibn Taymiyyah's views were mostly directed at Sufi practices, not so much the visiting of say Muhammad's tomb.

>>515694

Wrong. Taqiyya exists among the Sunnis too. They just had less need for it because they were almost always the ones in power, rather than being the ones oppressed. Sunnis in Iran after the Safavid takeover practiced taqiyya and posed as Shi'a to avoid retaliation by the Qizilbash propagandists and the mob.

>>515711
Taqiyya in Sunni is only permitted if the individual feared for their life. It is not a green light of deception.

>>515731

>Taqiyya in Sunni is only permitted if the individual feared for their life.

Yeah, it's the same in Shi'ism. The difference is that Shi'a more often had to fear for their lives at the hands of the Sunnis.

>>515711
the veneration of saints is shirk. there is no doubt about it. people go to these shrines to ask for blessings for more children or whatever. these people are not really muslims. it is all dependent on culture. it is all about race.

taqiya is a delusion that exists only in the minds of the western scum. specially the evangelical christians. lying to your oppressor when you know you might be killed for telling the truth is another way of war against the oppressor. that does not mean that a muslims is told to lie to propagate his religion.

>>515745

t. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

>>515734
I'm responding to the idiotic belief that Taqiyya is the green light for Muslims lying to propogate their religion

>>515669
your kinda tinfoilish desu
literally the negative /pol/ stereotype: the mooselimb

also
>le khazar theory
into le bin

>>515745
>the veneration of saints is shirk.

no it isn't. It's justified by almost every traditional Muslim scholar to some degree or another.

>>515688
why would Allah address some fringe group that we aren't even sure existed in the 7th century Arabia

>>514559
>if Iran gets wealthy is becomes less a puppet of Russia
Lol wat? Sunni under the influence of propaganda detected.

>>515688
>evidence suggest many Muslims believed in some of holy triad or another which was intended to respect God's singular personhood.
elaborate please

>>515764
there were turkish tribes that converted to judaism. that is undeniable. no matter how much you pretend to deny the existence of khazars you cannot erase the existence of pashtun tribes who were jews. when the ancestors of the pashtuns first began invading they were called huna by my people. they are the descendetns of the white/iranic huns or hepthalites of history. about a thousand years ago my people began to call them turushkas, meaning turks. these pashtuns had many tribes that followed the jewish religion. some of these tribes still remmeber that tehy use tobe jews. and some even practice some jewish customs despite being muslims. there was even a fiefdom of jewish huns/turks in southern india more than a thousand years ago. you can deny the existence of turkified caucasian jews all you want but you cannot wipe out the history of what happened in south asia not can you wipe the memory of these pashtun khan/hun tribes.

>>515771
islam has no church. it does not matter what some scholar thinks. it is not as if it is allah who gave that scholar his diploma. asking a dead man in a shrine for something is pretending he is capable of giving it to you. that is thinking of him as something like a god.

>>515748
i am not that western agent who was bred in the jails of iraq run by american forces.

>>515839
cont.

many askenazi jewish words like kagan, cohen are really turkish kaghan and khan. there are even jews in europe named khan. like domminique strauss khan from france. the cohens and the kagans are titles of old jewish priestly class. in turkish they are titles for the leaders. it makes sense, since among the jews the priests were the leaders. there are many other words in ashkenazim that is turkish in origin. i dont remember them right now but Shlomo Sand goes into them a little bit in one of his books.

>>515839
>you cannot wipe out the history of what happened in south asia not can you wipe the memory of these pashtun khan/hun tribes.
it was real in their minds

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So is the House of Saud a Jewish clan or what? Is that why they support Wahhabism so much, to tear Islam apart?

I've seen some things here and there that suggest this and it sounds extremely plausible; especially considering their relationship with big Rothschild oil conglomerates and the fact that Israel sees them as a 100% non-threat.

>>515900

I suspect their support of Wahhabism has everything to do with it propping up their regime, and nothing to do with religious scruples

>>515764
>le Khazar theory
Kek Khazars were 100% real. This is the problem with /his/: not being about to see who's Israeli

>>515891
>many askenazi jewish words like kagan, cohen are really turkish kaghan and khan.
Cognates of that word are attested in other Semitic languages though including Arabic.

>domminique strauss khan
It's Kahn though :^) Germanized Cohen.

Seems like nonsense

>>515930
Yea but then why did the wahabbis destroy Muhammad's treasures and the grave sites of major Muslim figures? They did some pretty anti-Islamic stuff t.bh

>>515940
Shalom

>>515934
I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli though.
Khazars were real but did they convert en masse to Judaism? And are the Ashkenazim descended mainly from them? I don't think so.

>>515895
why would these tribes make up a story about descending from jews? it makes no sense. if they made up a story about descending from some arab one might say they did that because they converted. where do you think the jews of india come from. there is a jewish population still living in india. and the fact jewish invasion of india and establishement of a small kingdom is even recorded in their history. it is only the western scum that has a penchant for lying and inventing histories. people who actually care about their values and traditions do not invent such lies about the identity of their ancestors.

>>515946
Do you want me to post a photo of my foreskin or something?

>>515950
Same reason why many dynasties claimed to descend from David, Solomon etc. Monotheistic cred

>>515771
>justified by every traditional muslim scholar
Which scholar? It's okay to remember their deeds, but never okay to ask blessing from the dead.

>inb4 wahhabi
Show me the opinion of four imam (Hanafi, Malik, Shafi'i, or ibn Hambal).

Where can I learn everything about that cute loli Aisha?

>>515950
>is only the western scum that has a penchant for lying and inventing histories
This is just silly.

>>515789

I said it might have been addressing them because much of the Qur'an addresses paganism in general, and the Arab pagans weren't opposed to taking Biblical figures like Abraham and others as actual gods in their cluster of a pantheon according to Muslim histories. A lot of the Qur'an is addressing paganism more than anything else.

But it's more likely that it's addressing any and all forms of what it considers "deification" in 5:116, which in this case would include the controversy among the Nestorians, Jacobite and Melkite Christians most represented in its audiences which was the controversy of Mary's actualy status. The Muslims would be more inclined towards calling Mary the Mother of Christ as opposed to the Mother of God in the sense of Christokos vs Theotokos and would agree with the Nestorian argument that this amounted to deification of Mary from a logical standpoint. However, more indirectly, it may also be addressing pagan traditions of taking Biblical saints and prophets as gods or demi-gods.

>>515900
some of white/iranic huns also invaded deep into arabia and even took over yemen for a while. it is likely that there were some jewish tribes among them aswell.

BTW, to the faggot who thinks there were no caucasians converting to judaism. it is even reorded by arab historians that were sent to the caucasus that many tribes of turks were converting to judaism. the arabs simply called all huns turks.

i have always suspected that the house of saud were descendant of huns. since they were mostly nomadic raiders before the establishment of saudi arabia. they use to loot pious muslim caravans who had travelled thousands of miles for pilgrimage to mecca. many times these muslims would bring their life savings with them to spend of the journey for a once in a lifetime event. and they would get robbed by the future defenders of the two holy mosques. it is the ultimate irony. it is possible that house of saud were jewish huns/turks before their conversion to islam. and that somehow they still remember in their tribal history and have kept that as part of their identity despite converting. but this is all speculation.

>>515977
Can you address this >>515834 please

>>515945
>>515945
because the wahabis are faggots, literally and figuratively. they should be eradicated because i suspect something is very wrong with their blood line.

>>515959
>Same reason why many dynasties claimed to descend from David, Solomon etc. Monotheistic cred

for that they would have invented a story about descending from some muslims arab. but these tribes are pretty adamant that their ancestors were jews.

>>515979
Since when are Khazars "Caucasians"?

>>515989
Not him, but isn't there a Holy Spirit/Ghost in Islam?

>>516000
Not really, in this case they claim to both have avoided Jahiliyyah and follow the Seal of the Prophets.

>>516003
Holy spirit (الروح القدس) is Gabriel, not God.

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>>515834
>>515989

The triad of "Allah-Muhammad-Ali" or "Haqq-Muhammad-Ali" is found among the Alevi tradition of Turkey and greater Anatolia where Allah, Muhammad and Ali are seen as being a "unity" in some sense along the lines of emanationism and Sufi ideas of annihilation/subsistence in the Divinity. The idea is that Muhammad-Ali are the per-eminent reflections of God's attributes, and so occupy a special position among all the emanations of God which emanate from them.

And many of the Alawites of Syria/Latakia believe in a triad of "manaa-ism-bab" or "meaning-name-gate" when it comes to understanding the divinity, "meaning" being God in his personhood, ism being the name, usually associated with Muhammad as the exoteric manifestation and Ali, usually the transcendent Ali is meant here, as the manaa.

And in Sufism (including that of a Sunni variety) and Shi'ite mysticism in general, the pre-existent nature or "light" of Muhammad tends to take on a role similar to the transcendent Son or Divine Logos in Christian theology, although they would say the Light of Muhammad is created and sustained by God's mercy and not co-eternal with God and would not use terms like "Son" or "Father" to describe the relationship.

A Muslim of a more Sufi or Shi'ite leaning might be more willing to accept a kind of "trinity" provided such a trinity either understood the triad as a triad of manifestations of the one divine essence (God in his personhood) or saw the two latter parts of the trinity as being absolutely dependent on the first third and acting not as co-eternal "persons" but as the two chief emanations, and of course if it avoided too much confusing anthropomorphic imagery. Such triads have developed in Muslim circles which bear similarities to Christian ideas, but are more steeped in distinctly Quranic idiom and Muslim "unitarianism"

Do Muslims celebrate the birth of Jesus in any capacity?

Yes, I know you don't believe he was anything more than a holy prophet, but with the reverence you have towards him (for example one of the minarets in that big mosque in Damascus is named after him), is there an actual day you guys believe he was born on?

>>516044
Ah, I see, I thought you were talking about regular Sunnis too. The branches you mentioned (and the Sufis) are often accused of syncretism, aren't they?

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>>516018
i cant explain this to a westerner. but tribal people who converted to islam from paganism would not invent any false non-islamic lineage over time. they would remember their ancestors from at least the time of their conversion. and the jahaliya was in arabia not all over the world. how do you expalin their customs which are exactly like the jewish customs that they have been practicing since longer than they can remember. where would they pick up those customs. and what about the history of people in the caucasus converting to judaism recorded by the arabs or the history of jewish invaders recorded by the indians, who came as the same time as the turk/hun invaders.

here are a couple of videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbW2QMX7JxI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD8P4kb_FGE

i dont think i can convince you of this by just telling you how improbable it is that the so many pashtun tribes would just invent a false history of being jewish converts. i will try to find some pictures on the internet of afghans practicing their ancient traditions which are similar to jewish one and have nothing to do with islam. also the word afghan is the correct name for pashtuns. pashtuns are also called pathans.

>>516002
there were people in the Caucasus who ended up being ruled by turks. these turks were converts to judaism. over time this whole or majority of the confederation of tribes ruled by turks became turks and jews. these people invaded many lands as the turks tend to do. some of their descendants were most likely called khazars. these people also probably had some mongoloid elements. since all turkish speaking populations have them. even pashtuns who do not speak turkish have entire tribes of mongoloid or mongoloid caucosoid hybrid people. since the pashtuns are descendants of people from the caucasus who came under the rulership of turks from time to time.

>>515963
http://correctislamicfaith.com/visitingofgraves.htm
http://www.questionsonislam.com/question/what-does-islam-say-about-visiting-graves-what-are-appropriate-manners-visiting-graves-isla

>>516054

Most Sufis are Sunni Muslims in law and creed. Sufis aren't a separate sect. But Sufis are found most prominently among the Sunnis and would object to being called anything but "Ahlul Sunnah"

>The branches you mentioned (and the Sufis) are often accused of syncretism, aren't they?

Islam itself is actually a pretty "syncretic" religion when you consider it often claims the figures of other religions to be Muslim sages or prophets.

Such a religion is bound to produce those who attempt to show continuity between their religion and previous faiths on the deeper philosophical level, especially when they have to translate Quranic ideas into other languages so others can understand them. Iranian Muslims, both Sunni and Shi'a, often translated Muslim ideas into Zoroastrian terms. Muslims in China explained Islam in Confucian, Taoist and Buddhist language when debating with their countrymen. And many Muslim in India still express Muslim ideas in Hindu religious language. Turkish Islam always retained some elements of both Eastern Orthodoxy and Turkish shamanism. A religion that claims itself to be truly universal is bound to be a little "syncretic" by nature, especially as it spreads to new social and religious environments

>>516099
I mentioned Jahiliyyah after you suggested that making up Arab heritage would have been more beneficial for them.

Your whole argument rests on the premise of some sort of tribal honesty when it comes to recording and transmitting oral history. Tribalshits invent history all the time, I don't give a fuck what some sandniggers claim. The only custom mentioned was that candle shit which could have been just borrowed from actual Jews in order to show their authenticity, tribalshits are lying vermin.

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>>476727

>Kufic script

Understand the fact that the Arabic script is derived mostly from the Nabatean scripts from Jordan/southern Levant, which are in turn derived from the ancient Aramaic script (see the Syriac scripts also; they share many traits with the Arabic script). The characters were originally rudimentary in composition (circles, curves, triangles, sharp angles so on); this was due to the fact that monumental Arabic inscriptions were originally chiseled into stone. When the Quran began to be written down, many changes were made in the previously simple layout of the alphabet. Letters became standardized in form, and dots were added to the "squiggles". However, the art of Islamic calligraphy was not very developed in that time (excerpts of the Quran were written on palm fronds and other odds and ends), so the familiar geometric forms such as those adopted in other parts of the peninsula were used. Only when the qalam (pen) and ink began to be used on true paper by the master calligraphers was the other dominant "round" fonts developed from their distinct balance of thick and thin line only possible by a broad-tipped, non-fixed applicator. Since mosaic was known to the Arabs from the Romans and others, Kufic (especially the square maze-looking version of it) was easier to translate into a bitmap-like structure like mosaic (look up Kufic tiling).

>>516128
there's no evidence of mass conversion of Khazars to Judaism, afaik there are no traces of Turkic in Yiddish,
also why don't the Ashkenazim have any Mongoloid features then if these "Turks" converted to Judaism?

>>516149
>>516149
a tribal pashtun will lie to you because he recognizes a parasite but he will not lie to his own about their own history. that stuff is sacred to them. the pashtuns do not even know why they practice those customs. you are suggeting that these people converted to islam and then decided to find jews to teach them jewish customs ? that is retarded.

how do you convince someone that he was a jew when he knows that his ancestors were not. there is no central authority with institutions of police to enforce a certain narative on the entire tribe. they tribes are egalitarian. this is the part that your western mind cannot grasp. if they had nothing to do with jews then someone telling then that their ancestors used to be jews and that they should start certain traditions because they are jewish and practiced by their ancestors, he would be laughed out or killed if he insisted. it is possible to invent your fake history when you have a hierarchical society and the only value you hold is worship of the powerful. but even then playing at being someone else is not that easy. you seem to be angry at the fact that I am pointing out that the jews of israel are not the real descendants of hebrews. even if you ignore the pashtuns there is plenty of evidence for turkish jews existing. but this thread is not about that.

here is a book i recommend

http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewish-People-Shlomo-Sand/dp/1844676234/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452064689&sr=1-1&keywords=shlomo+sand

it is written by Shlomo Sand. I believe you might find some PDF copies of it on the internet , if you search on google.

>>516175
why dont the pashtuns have mongoloid features if they were called turks for much of their history. the middle east was overrun by what the arabs called turks. why dont we see more people with mongoloid features in the middle east. the greek historians spoke of hepthalites. these were people from the caucasus and central asia who started calling themselves huns. did these people suddenly become mongoloid ? not according to greeks. so it appears that the name hun or turk does not always imply mongoloid blood. it does not even imply that the speakers speak the turkish langauge. such is the case with pashtuns who do not speak a turkish language. all that is required is that rulers spoke turkish and created a fedaration of tribes like attila the hun did.

>>516187
that's not retarded, that's what a really smart deceiver would do
pls, tribalshits suck the dick of their chief/elders and would go along with almost anything a senior would say, I am really sceptical about their sincerity when it comes to their oral history

>>516206
>tribalshits suck the dick of their chief/elders and would go along with almost anything a senior would say

that maybe true for slave race tribes in europe. maybe that is why you came under feudal control and then created nation states. but even that process took centuries of oppression. there are no tribal chiefs among the pashtuns and the tribal elders are elders because they are not the kind looking to get their dick sucked. if they show any inclination towards arrogance or selfishness they would no longer be respected elders. there is no institution called tribal elders that is protected by police or armies. a tribal elders power comes from his persuasive personality. if he says something that people disagree with he will lose that power.

anyway, lets not talk about whether the pashtuns lied about being jews in this thread. i would much rather talk about the subject matter.

>>516197
There are actually a bit more people with Mongoloid features in Turkey and Azerbaijan than in the rest of the Middle East
Anyway, the scenarios of invading Turks and Khazar converts are still incomparable. In the first scenario Turks are vastly outnumbered by indigenious people while in the other case of Khazars convert to Judaism and eventually become what we know as several millions of European Jews (80 million Turks in the invader scenario). I think they should be exhibiting more Mongoloid tendencies tb.h

And your claim about pashtuns and turks... Pls provide a source that they were called "huns/turks". And btw Khazars did speak Turkic and modern ex-nomadic people in that area (Nogais, Kazakhs) are Mongoloid

>>516239
No, actually that's how they behave themselves in the tribal societies of the Middle East (Eastern Turkey, Iraq) that I have read about

>>516239
I do not know that much about the khazars. the turks that converted to judaism in the caucasus had no mongolid in them or it was very minimal. it is also possible that only the ruling elite converted.

as for pashtuns being called turks there is a lot of evidence. every other pashtun has the word khan in his name. it is a turkish word which mean leader or ruler. the delhi sultanate are were called turks but we know the names of their tribes and they were pashtuns tribes. also the invasion of huna and then turushka is recorded in old punjabi history books. and only a few centuries ago the punjabis were calling people of peshawar turks. peshawar had been majority pashtun for almost a thousand years. there is plenty of evidence that pashtuns are the iranic huns mentioned by the greeks. they were people with Aryan language and religion but started calling themselves huns around the time after Attila's death and disintegration of his tribal hunni confedaration. the hun confedaration led by Attila was not majority hun either but they all began calling themselves that. the arabs also called the pashtuns turks in their history books. the arab caliphate in baghdad sent their armies twice to afghanistan to fight the turks there. these turks were already fighting the people of the indus valley and the arabs even formed an alliance with the indus valley people against these turks. pashtuns do have some mongoloid tribes among them. but majority of pashtuns are fully Caucasoid.

my original point is lost in all this. it was that the jews of europe were not the original descendants of the hebrews from the middle east.

>>516261
whatever you have read about is more of that shit that i keep reading about in western books. it seems like either the westerners cannot understand how free people live or they end up finding some tribes that give too much power to their leaders. this is why there are different endogamous groups in the middle east. not all of them are as freedom loving. there may be tribes that have slavishness in their nature. but i know about the pashtuns.

>>516261
it sounds like whatever you read we the result of inability of some european to comprehend the middle eastern values and nature of free people. Although there are slavish tribes in the middle east, much of what i have read in the west has been tinted by the western bias to the religion of progressivism based on the myth of human progress. the westerner is more than enthusiastic to show how inferior being in a tribe really is and how they have progressed so far in their nation state disease.

>>515641
>liar!!!
That is not an argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya#Sunni_Islam_view

>>516283
>my original point is lost in all this. it was that the jews of europe were not the original descendants of the hebrews from the middle east.
they are, as well as descendants of converts

>>516293
>>516307
Nah, it was written by a man from those places who had to emigrate to Europe in adulthood. And I think you are romanticizing and idealizing tribalshits too much.

If Islam forbids idol worship, then why do they pray to that black cube? Check and mate.

>>516746
>they are, as well as descendants of converts
the original descendants of hebrews are still living in palestine and they are muslims and christians. they never left. the romans never exiled all of them.

>Nah, it was written by a man from those places who had to emigrate to Europe in adulthood. And I think you are romanticizing and idealizing tribalshits too much.

he could be from one of those tribes that have a slavish nature. plenty of people from slave races in the mid east go to europe and start saying shit about their own people to confirm european bias. at the same time they completely ignore what europe has done and continues to do to the mid east. also one has to remember that this is the age of centralized currency brought about by the great enlightenment of the west. in this age if a person has power or money they will soon have both and they may try to use it manipulate people. this is the age of the con man. all con men flourish in this age and all honest men die slow agonizing deaths after living the life of misery. these are truly the dark ages of humanity.

>>516854
no one worships the black cube. even when the stone marker was gone for years, people still continued to come to mecca and practice their rituals. it is the black stone that marks the spot. the black cube is just a room. the muslims have even destroyed it themselves a few times. none of them stopped people from pilgrimage to mecca. it is only a marker for location.

>>473587
Anyone have any links to audiobooks or podcasts on this era? I've been wanting to learn about it for a long time, but I've been too busy lately.

>>517087
Of course the cube isn't important! What is important is that the Meccan tribes didn't lose piligrim shekels after joining Muhammad, denouncing politheism and having the idols destroyed!

File: image.jpg (273KB, 544x722px) Image search: [Google]

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>>516175
Turkicized Iranians who became Jews, possibly.

Anyway, pic related is Irene of Khazaria, a Khazar princess who was married to a Byzantine Emperor.

File: image.jpg (40KB, 411x599px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 411x599px

>>517299
Compare to

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61KB, 620x310px

>>517299
Compare

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30KB, 533x300px

>>517299
Compare.

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56KB, 640x360px

>>517299
Compare. This is Debbie Wasserman-Schulz, head of the US Democratic Party

>>517306
qt 22/7

>>517301
Bar Refaeli, Jewish pornstar / whore

>>517306
Israeli IDF propaganda girl

>>517314
Barbara Walter, Jewish US news presenter

>>517077
>Europe has done
Stop blaming Europe. I hate when ME or Asiatics blame "Europe" or "the West" you know that Europe has had a tragic history of fighting this world order and has succumbed to it and serves it because it is forced too. You think Europeans (even European elites) wanted to see Gaddafi fall and see a ocean of migrants flood through Libya? No! It was Jewish Sarkozy and NATO (read: US) forces who dealt the death blow to Gaddafi. Same with Saddam, same with ISIS.

It's the Anglo-Zionists (not "Europe" or "the West"). And even then the Anglo plebs in Britain don't support it.

>>517299
Nobility (especially a single daughter of the khagan) is hardly representative of how most people looked, she may have been mixed as fuck.

File: Saudi_soldiers,_Mecca,_1979.jpg (101KB, 752x439px) Image search: [Google]

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>>517087
>>517176

Interesting incident in this note:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_seizure

tl;dr pissed-off Saudi extremist claimed his brother-in-law was the Mahdi, took over the Masjid al-Haram; Saudi officials avoided direct assault due to religious consideration, were repelled when they tried to raid the mosque. The Saudi government defeated them by sending French commandos (who reportedly converted to Islam briefly before entering the city) and Pakistani commandos.

it was the precedent for fiercer crackdowns by the Saudi religious police

>>517553
Combined with the descriptors of contemporaneous and nearby steppe nomads such as Cumans and Kipchaks, we can see that said phenotype was and is prominent among the gene pool in question.

>>515845
Jesus, your Salafi influence is so clear.

>>516049
Not really. As a western Muslim with some friends who are Eastern Orthodox, I tend to just celebrate the 25th as well as any day the Orthodox Christians name because, to me, it's not a spiritual thing, I just like getting/giving gifts.

>>517784
Christmas is a festive event with strong pagan and, more recently, Christian influence. Even if the majority of people today don't know or care about that, isn't it still considered association if you give such an event any consideration in your life as a Muslim?

>>517809

There's literally nothing wrong with celebrating Jesus' birth as it has no connotations of subscribing to the definitive Christian belief that he was the son of God

>>517823
Even if you ignore the Christian theological side of it and just consider the fact it celebrates Jesus' birth, what about the pagan influence too?

>>517838
If you aren't worshipping pagan gods, then it's not pagan.

>"B-but the evergreen tree was a symbol used by pagans and the winter solstice was a pagan holiday!!11!"
It's not pagan if you don't worship pagan gods or spirits.

>>517838

What about it?

I'm not a Muslim but I'm fine with Islam, except for two things.
>you can beat your wife if she acts up
>no alcohol, what the fuck

>>517726
Even if that's true, what makes you think the Jews you posted acquired these features from Khazars and not from Slavs and Germans?

Btw who do you think are the descendands of the Cumans and Kipchaks then? Like I said modern ex-nomadic people from that area have heavy Mongoloid admixture

>>517809
>>517838
>le christmas is pagan maymay
upboated

>>517876
Who are you quoting?

>>517909
The Quran, dummy

>>517922
Which translation?

>>517876
http://submission.org/friday_no_such_thing_as_wife_beating_in_quran.html

Bit of a long introduction on this page but it gets to the point at the bottom,i suggest you read the misconceptions tab since that is probably what interests you the most,Also im not saying wife beating is not allowed but it is simply supposed to be a last resort if everything else fails,most people dont really beat their wives unless its a extremely serious matter though it is not as common as people make it sound.

>>517933
That one something whatever edition

Seriously though, the "no alcohol" policy in Islam is terrifying, and Quran 4:34 is pretty hard to justify from a liberal point of view honestly.

>>517946
It's obviously not common - most people wouldn't beat their wife even if they were allowed to, and the Quran has too many verses about peace, tolerance and charity to just ignore - but the fact it even authorizes it under some circumstance still makes Islam stand out.