so, what's the point of using this stuff and not using RAID

>>52528440
data retention.

>>52528440
Portability

>>52528474
What.
You can always move your backups to an external hdd. Nobody forces you to keep everything only in RAID array.
also
>2015
>tapes
Holy shit.

>>52528500
>2015
kek
>2016

>>52528440
Tapes are used to make backups of whole drives filesystems, not individual files. A lot of you are forgetting this

>>52528542
They're not forgetting anything because to forget something, you need to know it first.

RAID IS NOT A BACKUP

jesus christ how much more of an ignorant faggot do you have to be

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Who's using LTO streamers on /g/?
HP StorageWorks 920 LTO3 streamer reporting in.
>archiving anime and family photos was never this easy
I'm usually making 398GB VeraCrypt containers and putting stuff in it, then burning it into the 400GB RW cartridges and storing it in old ammunition boxes.

>25 years of data retention
>EMP protection
>reliable as fuck

because that tape is a cheap 6TB which you can shove your entire filesystem on, then literally chuck into a fireproof safe until you want to use it or overwrite it.

>>52528652
> cheap
Not really, especially if you take the drive's price into account

>>52528670
You just have to watch Craigslist and eBay, good deals pop up. I saw a 7 tape LTO-3 carousel for $50 on Craigslist last year, and got my LTO-4 drive for $12

>>52528694
>drive
you mean the cartridge or the streamer?
also avoid buying SCSI ones. SAS are much better.

>>52528652
A problem would be you'd need a drive greater in size than the one stored inside the tape.
Also you won't be able to make/use backups too quickly because it is very slow to write/read.

If your 5MB file has been corrupted, you will need to make an image of the previous backup of the filesystem from the tape which will take hours, then mount the image, and then finally obtain the 5MB file

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God damn I wish I had a couple
>unlimited backups
>Backuping random internet shit too

>>52528694
not in my country

>>52528694
They're pretty much expensive and rare in my shithole country, which cannot be said about HDDs.

>>52528707
streamer

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>>52528714
>picture

>>52528758
Well shit, you made a sweet ass deal, anon.

>>52528710
This
What are you all even thinking? Tapes are great for industrial drive backup but they'll be downright troublesome if you use them anywhere else

>>52528604
I manage Data Domains, HP Storeonces and a shitload of physical tapes reader.

Tapes are used because of their price and because you can store / move them anywhere you want.

I hate Networker, I hate Avamar even more and I hate to wait for the tapes to get loaded.

>>52528440
One of the latest LTO-7 drives costs over $5000 but a single cassette, which can hold up to 16 TBytes, costs less than 20$.

If you are running a data center that requires several PBytes of storage for backups and what not, you'll find that LTO backups are actually quite economic.

x1 4 TBytes HDD = $200
x1 16 TBytes LTO-7 = $20

For a 192TB archive you'd need either:

x12 16 TBytes LTO-7 = $240
+ LTO-7 drive one-time cost = $5000
Total = $5240

or

x48 4TBytes HDD = $9600.

LTO economic advantage is directly proportional to the quanity of data you need to archive. The more, the better.

>>52528790
Why?
It's a perfect technology to archive stuff. It's not only for backup use.

>>52528819
Are you retarded?
LTO7 is not released yet, You can only pre-purchase the cartridges.

>>52528819
lto-7 tapes are 6TB, not 16TB

>>52528825
Yeah I agree on that, it's great to archive stuff for long periods of time, but it can't replace storage media like external hard drives
A lot of people here seem to think tape drives are a replacement to external hard drives when they are not because of the I/O speeds

>>52528919
after hardware compression they're 15TB.

>>52528891
That doesn't affect the price in any way, if anything the price is going to drop after the official release.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AIUVYY2

>>52528945
compression isn't gauranteed, and you can compress data on hdd's as well

basically, advertising the value after an assumed compression ratio is pure marketing bullshit

good luck putting 15TB of anime on one

>>52528960
>anime
lmao
Companies don't usually store such cancerous shit in their backups.

>>52528440
Just use bluerays lol: The thread

>>52528960
Actually it's not unreasonable for most business applications. Your Chinese Cartoons won't compress that well, but text based databases compress extremely well. OSM data compresses really well too. That's why these are targeted for business users.

>>52529033
actually about this, how does hardware compression work? do you know any ebook or link I can check to learn something?

>>52529068
its like google doesnt exist.

>>52528581
>RAID IS NOT A BACKUP
He didn't say RAID was a backup. He said RAID-powered backup. These are two very different things.

>>52528581
learn to read you retarded nigger

>>52529083
kek right I just found a wiki:
https://wiki.zmanda.com/index.php/Hardware_compression

Tapes are superior for long term offline storage. Unlike hard drives, they don't become more likely to lose data when disconnected, and there are companies that will do secure off site tape storage in secure vaults for you.

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>>52528985
Anime will be more valuable than everything you accomplished in a lifetime.

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>>52529384
Your opinion will always be worthless to everyone.

>>52529376
boy can't wait to store all my 720p anime rips, arch linux rice configs and dark as my soul memefox css in an underground vault

>>52529401
but anon, one could argue the server in your basement IS an underground vault

>>52529401
>not having family
>not having friends
>not documenting your life, making pictures, movies
>not having valuable data made by you

>not wanting to secure your entire life in an underground vault

My problems with tapes are:
>expensive drives which can break after extended use
>not economical until you get to over 50tb.
>would likely need more than 1 tape to back everything up, so need some sort of loader system (more $$$$)

>>52529574
>not getting deprecated LTO 3/4/5 tape drives and infinite amount of cartridges from your company
Lol kid, better find a job in IT.

>>52529384
>anime
> /g/
>go back to /a/

>>52528500

Not everyone has the same simpleton needs as you where everything is stored on consumetrard WD Reds in a RAID array on some cheap meme server / gaymen PC
Protip, LTO is used for serious enterprise data warehousing

>>52528670
Tapes aren't made for people on welfare
Enterprise can afford the drive overhead because it makes sense to save on the storage medium itself

>>52529087
>RAID-powered backup

>>52529087
>>52529192

that's exactly what linus used as a 'backup'

>>52528819
>which can hold up to 16 TBytes, costs less than 20$
yeah no. Maybe LTO4-5 depending on whether they're new or used.

>>52529840
>>>/faggit/
Fuckoff to your anime free subreddit

>>52530540
I clearly said
>RAID powered backup servers
BACKUP SERVER you dipshit nigger faggot
GTFO

>>52528440
The company I work for has both. The tapes are in case of either a catastrophic failure like a fire, or in the case of needing to recover something from months ago, like an employee that stored his important mail in the deleted items folder. We enabled a monthly deletion policy and he complained about losing his stuff three months later.

We keep tape backups going back one year.

>>52528500

Actually tapes have some serious advantages when compared to disks, those tapes are not the same tapes you used when you were a kid. I am truly convinced that disks will be obsolete in the next 20 years and tapes will take their place. Tapes are the future.

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>>52530579
Well I supposed that if LTO-6 costs around $20-$30 now, LTO-7 should cost probably around the same after release. Even if it were to cost $40 a cartridge that's still quite cheap.

I just got an external LTO4 drive recently. Connected via PCIe SAS controller. I don't have much like some of you data hoarders on here (I have about 800G). But I do care about what I have.

I'm pretty old school and use tar and mt on linux. I use stenc to set the hardware encryption key. I do a full backup of all my aggregated shit once a week. I rotate between two tapes - and take one in to work every Monday to swap - this is my offsite.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/181560-sony-develops-tech-for-185tb-tapes-3700-times-more-storage-than-a-blu-ray-disc

>158tb tapes

>>52528500
>2015
dude

>>52530608
right but raid is for redundancy

>>52528604
That's a lot of pizza
>Using non-audited encryption
Ayy lmao

>>52530683
why not iperius backup + veracrypt?

>>52530783
>implying
I got like 12 native 400GB LTO3 tapes containing all pictures and movies made by my family since 2003.

What is the cheapest form of mass storage for simply amassing huge amounts of crap like video files?

I am not concerned with speed or anything like that, just capacity.

>>52530630
>Tapes are the future.
no, tapes are really good for extreme data capacity storage but that comes at performance price, they are too slow to write and read from. Very unlikely we'll ever see them outside backup applications.

>>52530709
>https://archive.is/mRvGA
>185TB
ftfy.

Can you imagine having a whole private tracker database stored on a single tape? the MAFIAA trolls will be so fucking butthurt it's gonna be funny. Based Sony.

>>52530838
>what is tape NAS
kek

>>52530838
But are they really too slow? I read the specs of LTO-7 and looks like they'll be running at 300 MBytes/s.

>>52528440
Welp, I haven't seen this shit before. What is it called and who is it for?

>>52530922
You ever see a VCR wind up?

>>52530957
LTO magnetic tape storage drives, it's up to it's 6th iteration, which is expensive af, but arguably the best way to store data in the long term.

>>52528440
>RAID powered
this is how I know you're a retard not even worth typing out a thoughtful response to

enjoy your wasted electricity and drive failure

>>52531032
What else do you prefer for critical systems?
By critical systems I mean servers used in business corporate environment, not your anime NAS in your parent's house.

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>>52530957
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open
http://mrbool.com/storing-the-backup-on-tape-part-1/23489

>>52528992
Nobody wants to sort data into and burn hundreds of discs.

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I'd rather have a 9-track open reel tape drive.

I already have the tape.

8" floppy for scale.

>>52528815

Have you had them go bad/unreadable yet?

Does the tape ever mess up like on a Audio Cassete/VHS?

How long are they "supposed" last?

And are you supposed to store them in a particular setting?

>>52531226
>Nine-track tapes commonly had densities of 800, 1600, and 6250 cpi, giving 22.5MB, 45MB and 175MB respectively on a standard 2,400 feet (730 m) tape.
>22.5MB, 45MB and 175MB

Are they making new tapes? because otherwise that's pretty bad.

>>52528440
They last longer than anything else on the market.

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>>52531283
Not sure if they still are, but there's probably plenty about. Just gotta find them for not-quite-so-ridiculous prices.

It's not even about practicality, I just enjoy playing with and learning about old tech.

>>52531351
I love old based tech too, they were probably the top that technology could offer at the time, I still regret giving away my old 8" floppy drive and disks...

currently using 2TB hard drives to back up my shit and then i unplug everything from it because i don't want it to keep spinning. in other words, my drives are only being used for 2-3 hours once a month to backup everything.

should i just get tapes for this type of backup method?

>>52531396
Aw, that's a shame. I only have the one 8" disk. No drive yet. I'm trying to source one, but I don't want to spend a ton on it, since in practice I won't be able to use it that much.

>>52531404
If you want to spent the money for the reader/writer sure go for it. In the long run depending on the amount of data its way cheaper.

>>52531508
where can i buy tape and the reader/writer in europe? what are some good brands to look for

i don't even know what "tape" translates to in my language

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advantages of tape:
>data written to tape is verified by reading it back using the read heads that are positioned just “behind” the write heads; this enables the drive to write a second copy of any data that fails to verify on its own.
>strong error correction algorithm is used that makes data recovery possible.
>LTO cartridge has no moving parts and so is more durable than a hard drive, uses no electricity itself
>15-30 year life cycle (actually being used repeatedly) of the LTO cartridge ensures a safe storage that is many years past that of a hard drive’s useful life-cycle.
>LTO tapes are extremely cheap. cost for a 6tb tape can cost around ~$20 - $30.
>2014 sony introduced 185tb tapes.
>easy to wipe the drive and keep private info secure be ensuring its lost.
>newest drives can achieve speeds of 400mb a second write. average is 160mb a second.

disadvantages of tape:
>susceptible to strong magnetic fields. pass-by of a bulk eraser will render the cartridge unusable.
>tapes have to be stored in mid 60's to low 70's, no high humidity but also not overally dry.
>no random access
>the reader itself is expensive. more so than the cost of mechanical and ssd's.
>since its tape, to start reading, you have to "rewind" and "fast forward" so reading is "slow"

debatable / neutral views of tape:
>when dealing with many hundreds of terabytes of data that the value of LTO over hard drives is seen. 150TB of data to store. That would require 100 1.5TB external hard drives, at a cost of around $75 each, or $7,500. The same amount of data stored using LTO would incur one drive at about $1,300 and then 100 cartridges at about $25 each, or $2,500, bringing the grand total to $3,800.

>>52530983
VCR isn't the same thing as enterprise auto loader

>>52531521
Search for LTO (Linear tape open). From there you can find the shit you need.

>>52531521
Use google translate, or just search for tape. It's a pretty universal word, though I'm sure the frenchies found it necessary to invent their own word for it.

Can I install Gentoo on a tape?

>>52530834
Its like you havent been here this whole thread

i really want to get this but idk where to find it

there's not that many reviews of LTO-6 on youtube but let me get this straight

the reader/writer is linked to your USB port and you put in the tape and you treat it like an external storage device and thats it?

>>52531676
yes but it would work like shit because it can't random access

>>52532060

You can get iSAS and Network drives as well as good old SAS

>>52528519
Oh, like he's the only person that hasn't adjusted to having to write a different year number yet. You're just letting your autism show here.

>>52528891
>LTO7 is not released yet

Then what is this:
https://www.tape4backup.com/lto-7-external-tape-drives.php

It's even cheaper than I thought.

>>52532060
Once I saw a cheap read-only 3,5" SATA drive, but I forgot the brand name, it costed like $300, though I doubt it can read LTO-7 tapes since they were just released. All writers I saw so far were external so yes USB 3.0, eSATA or SAS probably.

>>52530922
i bet that's the rate before compression, and the drive itself only does ~120

>>52531555
>>LTO cartridge has no moving parts and so is more durable than a hard drive, uses no electricity itself
that's stretching it, you could also argue a dvd has no moving parts, therefore is durable

the tape moves, just not on its own, the drive could potentially eat/warp/break the tape, it's not solid-state/non-mechanical

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>>52533687
actually it's the opposite, see pic, that's probably because there's a limit at which the rotor can spin inside the drive, so on compressed data which takes less space than uncompressed the reading speed increases.

how does encryption work on tape?

>>52533834
alright, cool
gotta be cautious of those marketing ploys

i'd fully expect them to advertise it as "750MB/s!*"

>>52533848
the same way it works on anything else

>>52533848
>encryption
oh I read wrong before, never mind.. I've no idea how it works, it's probably proprietary, it supports AES 256 from what I read.

>>52528440
tape is better for archiving shit, raid server is better for up to date backups that are quickly accessible

>>52531103
What kind of stupid fucking question is that? Tapes and RAIDS perform entirely different functions. Nobody is advocating the use of tapes in applications where speed is critical, and when it comes to long-term, safe archival storage, no shitty mechanical solution running long and hard 24 hours a day will come close to the reliability of tapes.

>>52533947
>buy two hard drives
>back up
>unplug
>put it on a shelf
vs
>buy $2000 equipment to store data on tape

you tell me which one is the best solution

>>52531283
Beats the shit out of a 3 MB RK05 disk pack.

>>52533970
what if 2 hard drives isn't enough space?

>>52534024
both you and me know you'll never have more than 20 tb

>>52534033
>tfw getting close to my 19th TB of crap

>>52534057
which hard drives?

>>52534033
oh, i'm sure i will

infact, i would right now if i had the money, i'm still using the 8TB worth of disks i bought back in 2010

>>52533879
kek honestly, if it could fully cap USB 2.0 I'd be happy with that, I'm streaming stuff from an external HDD in an enclosure connected through USB 2.0 and it works fine even with 1080p high bit rate files.

>>52534068
Various. I've got a 1 TB Hitachi, 2 Seagate 3Tbs (I know, I know, I keep an eye on the SMART scores), a 4 TB HGST, a 5 TB Toshiba, and a 1/2 TB Crucial SSD.

Cheapest way to store HD animu?
External HDs are too expensive
Living on a third world country with shitty internet isn't easy

>>52534112
your Toshiba is MD04ACA500 right? is it any good

>>52534156
It's a drive. It hasn't shit the bed yet. It's faster than IDE. Honestly, my bar is set pretty low for my 'storage' drives ever since I got my SSD. I just put whatever needs to load fast on my SSD.

>>52533970
So we're back to your basic home use case that you're incapable of seeing beyond now that you've realized the truth isn't on your side? Guess I shouldn't expect much more from the average narrow-minded Redditor that browses this board nowadays.

If all you want to do is back up a single system for a short term to withstand a single failure, then yes you use exactly that method or a set of drives in RAID 1 or similar.

If you have a bunch of data, very valuable data you want to last for a very long time in a very safe place or be able to cheaply back up very frequently and have the option to revert back to multiple configurations if needed? You don't want to use something so vulnerable as a hard disk to do that.

>>52528440
It stores way more data and lasts much longer

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>>52534118
>External HDs are too expensive
ikr they're utterly useless, you can get a nice 2TB internal HDD for like $60-70 and for another $20-25 you can find a USB 3.0 external enclosure. At least you can use the HDD as you want, internal or portable/external, rather than just external.

>>52534273
such a terrible way to use your hard drive, USB seriously fucks up the platters

>>52528714

fuck fuck
how do i wake up??? please help me

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>>52534295
it does? no problems for me till now tbqh, I used it like that for about 2 years already and I connected it to the UPS only recently, there were many times when outages happened and the drive stopped during a file transfer too but except the file being incomplete, there were no other problems.

>>52534103
same, in most cases

the seek time is probably a bigger issue, how long would it take to seek to a particular file?

like, it'd be fine for storing lots of large media files if it didn't take too long to seek to any particular one (say more than a few minutes)

>>52534273
I won't touch externals again because my first one had a minor failure and fixing it was a hassle

>>52534420
usb has no effect whatsoever on the life of a hdd

>>52534417
did seagate step up their game or how did you make yours survive with an enclosure for so long

is it deltaco enclosure?

>>52534438
it does... PSU powering up hard drives is more reliable than relying on the electrical circuit in enclosures

>>52534435
that's why he suggested an "internal" hdd + an enclosure

if you're concerned about usb still, then try eSATA (which is literally just sata but with a different connector that is safer to hotplug)

>>52534472
recommend a good enclosure

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>>52534445
>is it deltaco enclosure?
KEK... it's just piece of plastic actually, paid 20 yurobucks from a local store, the USB 2.0 version of this in pic.

>>52534497
i honestly haven't used a bad one

when you use enclosures, does it get treated like internal or external?

Arent these more ment for Complete failure of a computer or network of computers?
A.K.A. if the building burns down.
>>52528652
>Backup Comp or Network
>Throw in fireproof safe
>Building burns down
>All comp are dead
>Not completely fucked, just mostly fucked

>>52534580
it doesn't look any different than my other 3 internals when I open the computer folder.

>>52534631
im only asking because if you encrypt it with let's say truecrypt, it'll automatically detect it as an external or internal

yours is encrypted right

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>TFW when the omega of storage is discontinued and never advanced to the same amount of storable data.
Not Optimal for entire drive backups, but better longevity for the critical files you couldn't afford to lose, cheaper and smaller means you can have a matching pair.

>>52528714
The text should be in French for me. /

>>52534658
oh no I didn't encrypt it yet because I've installed TC only a few months ago, it will probably take ages considering that it's USB 2.0 and almost full so I'll leave that for when it's totally full, I'll make a clone when I get a 4TB HDD and encrypt this 2TB which I'll keep as backup. My only encrypted drive now is the 120GB SSD for OS and installed software so I don't know how the external will react once encrypted.

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>>52534445
I almost forgot, I use an automatic defragger (o&o defrag pro), it might be one of the reasons it survived so well till now.

>>52528819
This comparison is shit and you've fallen for the tape marketing BS. An LTO 7 tape is not 16TB and I love how you say 'up to'. With that reasoning my 250GB SSD can hold UP TO a petabyte or more! (Given the file being compressed is all zeroes.)

Anyway, if you redo your comparison with ACTUAL tape capacity and actual LTO 7 tape prices you'll see 192TB is similarly priced for both LTO7 and HDD, and even just loading/unloading 32 individual tapes is a hassle, where each hard drive has it's own read/write hardware and can be left running/accessible 24/7.

>>52535076
Sure, but imagine the power usage

>>52534331
Try drinking some bleach

>>52535076
Well yes but even if instead of 15TB let's say tapes were limited to 8TB at best, it would still be cheaper in the long run, a 8TB HDD costs from $250 while a LTO-7 tape will cost less than $150 when it debuts mainstream, probably this year and it will be much cheaper the year after as well (see how cheap the LTO-6 is already now after only 3 years), I doubt the HDD prices will drop any more than 10-15% in a year.

>>52535292
I don't think you fully understand my point. Tapes are limited to 6TB, in exactly the same way that 4TB hard drives are limited to 4TB. Both of them can be used with compressed data given your data is actually compressible (so if your archive is compressed video or compressed images you're out of luck for further compression).

Anyway, yeah there's a break even point and yeah tapes have a few advantages. I'm just saying 192TB is probably a low number for breaking even with tape.

>>52535464
I thought that tapes used some sort of different more efficient compression? otherwise why would they say exactly 15 TB and not more or less? there must be some reason why they say that, some compression method that's unique to tape technology or something like that.

>>52535605
>why would they say exactly 15 TB
That's what their shyster marketing department has agreed on.
>some compression method that's unique to tape technology or something like that.
nope

>>52535605
"...if you are going to write pre-compressed data
(for example multimedia data type such as mpg, jpg, mp3, etc.) this ratio will be very poor and in some compression algorithms may cause the written data to tape to be larger than the original data."

http://blog.open-e.com/a-few-words-about-hardware-compression-in-a-backup-with-tape-drives/

>>52535605
that just take common enterprise data as examples
they're not using anything magical, it's the same type of algorithms used in things like 7z/rar/zip/etc (lzma/lz4/lzo/etc)

common enterprise data meaning things like text/office documents, databases, and the like, which tend to be very compressible

>>52535615
>>52535640
I see, that's quite disappointing honestly.

>>52528440
>not using both

>>52529538

>spending money on your write-only filesystem
>implying you will EVER look at more than 1 % of those photos again

>>52534057

>20TB on his write-only filesystem
>data hoarding
>probably NEET

seek professional help

>>52530822
>containing all pictures and movies made by my family since 2003
>all pictures and movies made by my family since 2003
>pictures & movies by family since 2003
uhh.. wut?
anon are the children in your family being exploited?
You should get them and yourself some (allot) of help. Its not right!

>>52533269
>quantum
lmao

>>52537809
Well, if that was supposed to be funny then think again.
And yes, seek help.

>>52528566
Beautifully crafted.

>>52528935
No one's ducking saying that idiot.

>>52528451

/thread