Who owns the internet? The usual answer is "nobody"

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>>52436867
Bill gate

>>52436867
The ISP

>>52436867
found the spoiled kid that things everything should be free

>>52436966

I do not think everything should be free

I am just wondering, if you had the equipment where would you have to go to be connected without a fee charged for the connection?

if no such places exists, how is the internet not owned by anyone?

I am not trying to be a fedora libertairan

i am just wondering how people can say nobody owns the internet, i may have just worded my OP badly sorry

>>52436890

if this is really beneath you could you please just tell me why

i may just not "get it", I am not new to computers but i am new to high level networking

i am asking as an honest question and would appreciate this information

I fully understand why you must pay to get the internet connected to your house, some poor guy has to run a wire to your house and connect to you a switch he owns, that is a service worth paying for and I get it, i also understand that what I am proposing would not be cost effective (buying your own equipment, renting space "near" the internet)

but could it be done and have the hookup for free?

in theory

>>52437024
Are you willing to risk your life by splicing a cable into your neighbors telephone lines?

A library

>>52437084

that's not what i am talking about and you know it

>>52437024

Understand what an ISP is and how they operate to give Internet to others. The key part to understand is peering agreements where ISPs have to negotiate with each other to connect with each other. All of these agreements are a big part of why the Internet works like it does in a decentralized manner.

You can not be getting free Internet without magically making the investments needed to be an ISP and to magically make agreements with other ISPs to connect to the Internet. Which is why no one can steal Internet in the traditional sense without piggybacking other people's Internet or hacking the ISP to enable your Internet line without cost. Good luck going unnoticed.

>>52437136

I library or starbucks or whatever still pays the ISP and they are giving you slow retail bandwidth as a courtesy

not like you could host a domain if you put a server in a library

>>52437190

if I understand what you are saying the "ISP"s are running cables for miles and miles say between cities then letting other ISPs use that bandwidth for free in exchange for using their cables for free

is that what you are saying?

basically i could never be "big enough" to have an agreement like that and thus a free internet hookup?

>>52437226

They don't share wires for bandwidth. They exchange traffic. Top level 1 companies are usually a big telecommunications company that has most of a country/continent wired. Smaller level 2, which is where ISPs are, buy transit and additionally, more infrastructure. But peering agreements exist there as well. It's all very complex to understand and very volatile, which is why Netflix ran into throttling issues with their service a while back.

>>52437226
replace free with charging and agreeing upon rates and traffic.

So a local business owner near me owned land that he put a cellphone tower on. He sells connection to and from that tower to Verizon and others. They each have different agreements and different towers have different agreements. All of them pay. All of them negotiate what type of traffic they are buying. Usually there are caps and priority. The tower is spitting out and in X and Y values. Verizon buys 70%, AT&T buys 20%, 10% goes to whoever.

Verizon could be unfilled, the 20% AT&T is using fills and users get slower service.

Repeat this for other towers and you have a mesh of things different telecoms own negotiating with each other constantly every step of the way for how much traffic they are allowed. Software defined networking and shit will find a way to use the unused traffic but there is a big amount of regulation and contract dealing with who gets what in what region.

Think of your text or cellphone call bouncing through these towers and lines to get from New York to LA.

This is why you end up with telecoms selling users/leases on infrastructure to other telecoms and suddenly some rural area turns into a duopoly where both sides have set agreements and use the same infrastructure.

When a new telecom shows up and offers something they usually be shit because they MUST negotiate with the telecoms who are already there to use their shit.

>>52437352

but would you not say due to these facts that the ISPs "own" the internet?

>>52436867
tier 1 ISP's

>>52436867

What you're looking for is called "Backbone" and you need to be an ISP to connect to it.

>>52437388

It is a decentralized ownership but yes, they essentially own it. The only thing stopping the Internet from being centralized is the fact that telecoms are not an international monopoly industry.

>>52437379

thank you for this, it sounds like the answer is "you can't hook up to the internet without using someone's else's hardware at some point and you have to negotiate deals with them"

>>52437395
>tier 1 ISP's

without getting into hair splitting, it seems like this must be the basic answer

people always say it's "free" though, perhaps it was that way at one time but no longer?

>>52437436

ok thank you, I still don't "get it" totally but I think you are sending me in the right direction to understand this complex arrangement

>>52437448
>people always say it's "free" though, perhaps it was that way at one time but no longer?
hardware, electricity, maintenance all cost money. They protocols are libre but that doesn't deter from the fact that it still costs money to provide the service. Somebody needs to pay for it and that becomes the end user

>>52437448

If you had this idea and started to invest in this idea around 1989-1990, your idea would work provided you could negotiate with other people like you and you had users on your infrastructure to connect to theirs.

This was essentially how the Internet started. But since we are past that era, this is no longer possible.

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mfw this thread

>>52437489
>>people always say it's "free" though, perhaps it was that way at one time but no longer?
>hardware, electricity, maintenance all cost money.

in theory if you were willing to provide your own hardware and electricity and maintain your own equeipent it sounds like you still could not hook up anywhere for free

>>52438801
>in theory if you were willing to provide your own hardware and electricity and maintain your own equeipent it sounds like you still could not hook up anywhere for free
welcome to life. Once /g/ leaves it's basement and gets cut off of mom, they'll find a harsh world

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>>52438872

i know what you are saying bro

if you read the thread what I am trying to find out is why people say all the time "nobody owns the internet" or "the internet is free" but if there is no place you can go to get hooked up for free if you bring your own server hardware... then do the people you must pay not own the internet?

If the answer was "here is how you do it but it would not be cost effective and you would have to do it at some data center or something, not at a residiental home location" that would be a fair enough answer to me

but "it's not possible" seems to make the statement:

"nobody owns the internet" = false

i am not some kind of basement fag demanding free internet, i am just trying to see what is going on

>>52438752
mfw this post

>>52438989
The protocols are open source. You can create your own internet if you want to. But the same as a chat application, it's only useful if there are others using it. You don't have to pay any license fees to use the software.

However, if you want o connect to people around the world, you'll need to lay down a shit load of hardware, which costs money. Somebody needs to fund it.

Who owns the internet? Literally nobody. People just provide routing and servers that happen to live on the internet.

If you want to find out who controls it, that would be the W3C

>>52436867
Probably Tim Berners-Lee if anyone. What with everything being a collection of hypertext documents.

>>52439036
>Who owns the internet? Literally nobody. People just provide routing and servers that happen to live on the internet.

not to beat a dead horse but where could i go provide a server that "lives on the internet" and not pay access fees

>nobody owns the roads
>but everytime you get on a road you have to pay Roads.inc $1
>but nobody *wink wink* "owns" the roads

>>52439098
by hosting a LAN and putting a server on there. But you would still have to pay for the hardware and the electricity.

>>52439098
Nowhere. To be on the Internet you need an address, which works like a mailbox in real life. You need to pay money to have a mailbox to mail shit from. And the mailman isn't working for free.

>>52439234

interesting, so is it kind of like there are only X number of IPs and they are all reserved and you have to rent one from someone who feels like renting one?

thank kind of makes senes

Op to do what you want you would have to make your own internet, spending millions(billions?) on infrastructure, hardware and licenses/permits, lay undersea cables and launch satellites. You don't have to pay to use your internet because you would own it.

>>52439578

so who owns the other internet that "nobody owns"?

OP: Read up on Autonomous Networks/Systems (in the context of Internet infrastructure) and on Border Gateway Protocol. Then read up on the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority, which is the top of the tree of "renting" IPs as described in these posts:
>>52439262
>>52439234

"No one owns the Internet" is better phrased as "_No one entity_ owns the internet in its entirety". At some level the internet is physical and logistical, and at that level, multiple someones own separate parts of the internet, with differing arrangements depending on their size, legal jurisdiction (country, etc.), and so forth.

>>52439629
nobody you cock. How hard is this to comprehend. People own the fucking hardware and charge the companies that want to use it. They in turn charge the end user for internet access. Then there is a consortium that manages IP address range assignment for different countries so that nobody freaks the fuck out.

End of story. Stop going in circles

>>52439674
>nobody you cock. How hard is this to comprehend.

kind of hard actually

>nobody owns the internet now give me 50 bucks or your cut off

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>>52439653
>"No one owns the Internet" is better phrased as "_No one entity_ owns the internet in its entirety".

ok that makes sense, thank you

i guess that general phrase was not specific enough

here is a photo of carrie fisher taking a cute nap between takes in the 1970s as thanks

>>52439767
why do you want to use other people's hardware and infrastructure for free?

>>52439790

I don't i want to provide my own

but google (and most websites) lets me use their hardware for free as long as i am hooked up

>>52439806
>but google (and most websites) lets me use their hardware for free as long as i am hooked up
they sell advertising to fund their shit. That's why you don't have to pay. They sell you to their clients who want to advertise directly to your needs.

>>52439806
>I don't i want to provide my own
then you need to pay your ISP to use their cables and hardware.

>>52439871

read the thread

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>>52439806
>but google (and most websites) lets me use their hardware for free as long as i am hooked up
Wow. I can't even. Do you really not understand the difference between these three things:
1. A website, Google, that provides a service (which isn't free, trust me, I pay them lots of money to advertise to you).
2. A company which owns physical infrastructure (long distance lines, backbones, sometimes last-mile local lines).
3. ISPs and other service companies that utilize that infrastructure to connect you to #1 across #2.

No single one of them "owns" the internet, but neither are they letting you do anything for free.

>>52436966
everything should be free.
at least basics like food and rent. especially since most things are automated these days.

>>52439913
I've been trying to get these points across to this guy for a while now.

>>52436867
To create your own internet you need to become a tier 1 service provider.

Good luck.

>>52439947
wow thx pal im not op tho but i can tell that maybe with a lil bit of explanation this is the info we've been lookin for good lookin out

>>52439947
I got beaten

>>52439972
Also to add on to this. Being a tier 1 provider requires a lot of money, however it allows you to create an autonomous BGP system to connect to other tier 1 providers.

>>52437448
>thank you for this, it sounds like the answer is "you can't hook up to the internet without using someone's else's hardware at some point and you have to negotiate deals with them"
Yeah, that's exactly it.

>people always say it's "free" though, perhaps it was that way at one time but no longer?
It has never been free. The tier 1 ISPs interconnect to each other without money changing hands, everyone else pays them directly or indirectly for access.

If you want to become a true equal, you need to start your own tier 1 ISP, and negotiate deals and connect with every other tier 1 ISP. This deal will become free once you are big enough that they need you as much as you need them; that is, when the money they pay YOU for access to YOUR network is equal to the amount YOU pay THEM for access to THEIR network.

There is nothing actually free in the system. Rather, there are parties that are equally important, and thus pay each other the same amount for access, for a grand total of zero between them. If you become one of those, then you'll be a true independent part of the internet.

>>52439926
>especially since most things are automated these days.
You say that like there are zero human actors involved in "automation" and there's some happy, benevolent group of machines whirring away, provided with free electricity to "automate" things that you then get to take for granted.

Could it be instead that the taking of such things for granted is instead what blinds you to the significant human undertaking that you callously disregard as "automation".

So some utility-providing task is automated. Ask "Automated by whom?" Who did the work to set up that automation, and who does the work to maintain it? Who pays for the electricity and physical housing for the machines to happily automate in peace and security?

You examples in particular, Rent and Food, are two of the least automated aspects of a person's daily life. My landlady would kill for someone to "automate" her job for a cut of my rent, even if it meant she made a little less each month. It's an incredibly manual world. Food is much the same. For every article on a news website breathlessly touting how "New food startup builds robot makes perfect burgers in 15 seconds!" you still have dozens upon dozens of ingredients produced in factories which utilize some amount of human labor, sourcing from farms which definitely utilize human labor.

>>52439947

OP here, neato

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>>52439996

>tfw you will never be a tier 1 provider

why even live

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Who lays these cables /g/?

Governments?

>>52440200
Mostly.

>>52440200
Private contractors hired by governments.

>>52440200
Linus, why do you think he's such an avid diver?

>>52440200
mostly get financed by gouverments
but outsourced into the private sector


why do we have a spellchecker on dis board?
>inb4 tinfoil more

>>52440093
what's your graphic even saying? it sucks to get married?! or is it a jab at people who complain about taxes?

>>52440307
Idk but its not even relevant to 90% of america, who earn less than a quarter of that

>>52436867

u simply cant op

the internet is made out of huge clusters of servers
which are connected through main server(called backbone)

to make said connection you need access to such a backbone which means this mainserver structure needs to grant you access. for this you usually pay moneyz(a fuckton)

then is there the isp which provides a mapping from your computer through these backbone structure.


so to do such thing as you explained, you need:
-connections/affrmation to/from a backbone
-connections/affrmaton to/from an isp

do you have trillions?(cause usually thats what it takes)

but it aint impossible:
just infect enough computers which map to each other in a decentralized manner
look into:
tor network
mesh network

>>52436867
USA, most of the 13 DNS are on their soil.

the internet isn't an actual thing. It's just switches and wires. when you pay for internet, you're paying someone to forward your data.

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>>52440307

it's from a wall street journal article showing how much the Obama tax increase would rape and ruin the country

but since only very rich people were going to have to pay a little more they had to make all the single moms making $300,000 look like they were going to be come destitute because of mean ol Obama

they were universally mocked for being out of touch because of it

>>52440200

that's some expensive cablin right dere

>>52440200

>tfw live in Antarctica and no cablez

>>52440093

those kids are going to starve for sure

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>>52440200
Does anyone else notice how these cables go along millennia-old trade-routes?

>>52440714

probably because there were water or electric ditches dug already and they had the trails cleared and could lay down the fiber with them

the fiber in my town follows old infrastructure routes too

Just wondering if you guys think OP is really a dumbass or if this is a legit thread

i got some good info out of it desu

>>52436867
The internet on the whole is not owned. But the individuals who own the computers do. And the ISPs own the access to the internet.

>>52436867
We can easily ask another question and have a similar answer.

Who owns roads? How about the railways?

The internet cables spanning the Earth are maintained by everyone. Private contractors are hired by governments from all over the planet to maintain and lay down these things. Nobody owns them, just like nobody owns the roads or the railways.

>>52436867

If you had enough money for your own infrastructure and backbone, you could connect just fine. Keep in mind that most small ISP rent backbone space from a major ISP like Comcast or Time Warner.

The coffee shop up the road dumbass

>>52440879
>Who owns roads? How about the railways?

nobody would ever tell you "nobody owns the roads or railways" in the sense they say that about the internet

it is clear who owns the roads

>>52440200
>government laid lines
>/g/ complains when the TSA reads their shit
Make your own internet then, you dinguses

>>52441811

no u