Do you guys know of any women who are both feminist-esque and actually good at what they do?
Anecdotal evidence is fine too, I just think it's hilarious that most of these women in tech who are piping up so loudly have mostly contributed absolutely nothing to any OSS or really even been employed very long outside of 'professional talking head'.
Pic very related. Joan of Arc.
Depends on how "esque" you're thinking. I know a couple female network engineers that make about 16K/year less then their mail counterparts.
All they want is to make equal pay, and they are as good, if not a touch better, at what they do.
lel why do i not believe you at all
tell them to demand a pay raise if there males at the same company with the same experience that earn 14k more
>Women with more experience accepting similar or lower salary than men with less experience
WHAT THE FUCK?
This pisses me off and im a man.
I like to think that salary directly correlates with experience, why the fuck would a woman accept less money than a man when she has more experience?
The only thing I can think of is that women will not do anything to rock the boat on their salaries and dont care about getting 10k less than men because their husbands cover the bills anyway
or, maybe they just dont ask for a raise as often
or, maybe they just dont provide as much value on average and cant justify a raise
experience isnt the only factor in determining ho wmuch you make
if you've been there for 10 years, but havent accomplished as much as someone who has been there for 7 years you certainly dont deserve as much
They didn't even factor for experience and likely didn't factor for things like maternity leave, either.
Also keep in mind that the number of salary reports wasn't even comparable, so obviously the numbers are going to be different.
Google's senior software engineers, for example, are a difference of about 130 pieces of feedback. If one of those men took a paternity leave it wouldn't skew the data all that much but if even one of those women was getting paid only half as much it would drag the average down tremendously.
>Be inna community college for programming
>Courses also teach hardware
>Hardware prof is a girl
>Knows her shit about hardware
>Knows her shit about software
She was a competent person who also knew how to a teach well. She was a feminist, but not in the common view of them. She was sane.
She was the, 'girls can be competent and I'll lead by example' kind of feminist.
She wasn't trying to drag anyone down. She was only trying to improve the popular opinion of women.
Did she ever call herself a feminist?
I mean I know this delves into semantics but I was thinking more along the lines of 'professional whiner' types who basically dedicate their lives to talking about how oppressed women are.
A ton of them were up on github before patreon came along and were getting supported monthly without even having contributed anything.
I only knew she was a feminist as she knew my grandmother, and the topic somehow shifted to that.
Like I said, she wasn't a tumblr social justice warrior, or professional victim sort of feminist. She's the kind that would probably be embarrassed to call herself a feminist these days.
She liked to take care of business.
>Do you guys know of any women who are both feminist-esque and actually good at what they do?
That two things exclude each other.
People who get shit done have no time for feminism.
They wouldn't be a feminist if they had merit. Feminism is caused by jealousy, both of men and succesful women.
Remember that in shape mom that was all over the news for some fucking reason? Like that.
I earn about 8k more than my colleagues who have the same job.
I am simply better at it and not too stupid to never ask for a raise.
Most women are either satisfied with what they have because they do not plan to stay in the job forever anyways or they are too afraid to ask.
Shouldn't you be on tumblr jerking off to your hugbox? Complaining about oppression and how women are people then in the very same fucking breath say"those neckbeards can't get women" implying that women are a prize and nothing more?
Yeah anti gg and its false flags were thrown out. Go make up some more lies about how you and you shits are for equality with the rest of your legbeards. You're just as impotent as the neckbeards you despise.
Pretty much the GOAT distributed databases expert. I'd put her in top tier of men and women who deal with large scale distributed systems - when Microsoft came out with Document DB they gave her an instance to make sure everything was correct. If you make a database that has its consistency fucked up, she will pretty much call you out on it.
Most of her shit is hidden though no idea where she works though. And I'm not sure if shes feminist-esque, she could as she retweets that shit, but she mainly rants about databases and consensus algorithms. I pretty much check twitter to see if she has a new rant. Infact she might be a guy posing as a girl - so theres that as well.
Shes the only woman I know though who is undisputed GOAT though, most other "women in tech" on Twitter are like OP's. (anecdote: I actually met Adria Richards randomly at a meetup a week before the whole donglegate incident. Got her card and everything. When the whole thing went done it was pretty funny that I met an internet "celeb" at that point).
She also has this cute story as a kid of her fucking around and installing slackware linux: http://www.exquisitetweets.com/collection/iamdanw/2923
>YOU WILL NEVER EVER HAVE A CUTE DAUGHTERU TO INSTALL LINUX WITH AND PRETEND IPROUTES ARE HACKERS
what do you mean by "feminist-esque"? I mean, i know females in tech who do support women's rights, but they are not peta-aggressive about it. Yes, they are equally as capable if not more capable than their male colleagues and are recognized for it by their superiors.
No, the 4 girls or so in my comp sci course are generally terrible at programming.
They have zero understanding of it and just get by from copying programs directly out of the book, or by having other guys in the course do the work for them.
Ask them what their code actually does and they can't explain it whatsoever.
You think oppression is real it is but its because women want it. Instead of standing up and doing the work it's the sit around and cry about mysoggyknees and why don't women get stuff for just showing up?
Face it, even the thing women are supposed to be good at (fashion) gay men are better at, not because of genetics or money but because its easier to be an idiot model and stand around in dresses made by someone else then to take charge and change.
And feminists are okay with this and perpetuate it lest they lose thier job. Not the old school feminists, the new whiner tumbletard legbeards who have done exactly nothing but try to become efamous instead of educating young girls to be more.
Go donate more money to literaly who and congratulate yourself on how awesome your stupid blue hair is and how youre sticking it to the man. You've done nothing but set real equality back 100 years.
>Shouldn't you be on tumblr jerking off to your hugbox?
No, because that shit's cancer.
>Complaining about oppression and how women are people then in the very same fucking breath say"those neckbeards can't get women" implying that women are a prize and nothing more?
That... wouldn't even imply that.
Seriously how would insulting someone for failing at socialisation imply that social connections are worthless?
Did you even think your own hypothetical though?
>Yeah anti gg and its false flags were thrown out.
No, GG was thrown out. And for pretty good reason too.
Sure they liked to talk about journalistic ethics, but almost all they ever actually did was get mad at people who didn't agree with them.
>Go make up some more lies about how you and you shits are for equality with the rest of your legbeards
Got any good advice? 'Cause misrepresenting people seems to be a speciality of yours.
>You're just as impotent as the neckbeards you despise.
That's kinda implict, given this is an argument on 4chan.
Salary should not correlate with experience. It should correlate with competence. You should earn more not because you have more experience but because you are better at what you do. Experience is part of it, but correlation does not imply causation. Plenty of so-called "experienced" people are utterly useless at their jobs.
Equal pay is an awful idea. Give higher pay to whoever is better at their job, and therefore more likely to be adding value to and reducing their footprint on the business.
You should be banned from using the acronym GOAT.
Never heard of her, but she seems cool. Looks like one of those unicorn rare girls from the 90s that was actually interested in computing.
>Any that made their own engine? Because "game programming" might as well be making RPG Maker scripts
Do you have any idea what game development actually is?
Because it's not the same a engine building.
There is a lot of overlap between the programming, art, and writing in game development.
Or at least there should be, if you're doing it right.
Post the study then?
The story is part of the gameplay (in a good game).
Also, an appeal to nomenclature is about the dumbest argument you could have picked.
I'm sorry you don't like some types of game?
No, I'm asking seriously. Of the dozens of different role types involved in producing a modern game, how far along the line do you have to go before people are no longer "in tech"? Apparently a big company are sending a "tech evangelist" to my neck of the woods this week. Do they work "in tech"?
the amount of bickering in this thread is ridiculous.
the majority is not the whole, you will meet all kinds of people with various qualifications and opinions. does that mean they accurately represent everyone else of the biological gender? no. there are competent men and competent women just as there are equally incompetent ones.
is that such a difficult concept to understand?
>A group of 12 - 13-year old pupils spent eight weeks developing their own 3D role playing games as part of the University of Sussex study.
Trashed so fast I got vertigo
>get a job working IT a a small corporate office
>it was me and 3 others
>an absolute bata named rob who was in charge of the network and printing
>lisa who was the tumbler stereotype with read hair and "cat glasses" who worked with me on general repairs
>me and lisa fought and argued a lot but she got her work done and and we respected each other to a point
Fuck off and die you stupid fucking pleb.
You are the reason western society is filled with fucking morons.
A study done with 12-13 year old children, of about probably 30 kids at best.
Yeh I'm sure there was no bias present whatsoever.
I asked for the study, not the Telegraph article about the study.
Also, that study sounds WAY too simplistic to draw too much from, and there is a bunch of confounding factors.
>it's just b8
Which is a shame, because there's probably some interesting points to take from the study itself. But yeah, there's nothing to learn from that article.
they work more flexible hours to be able to have babies and be mothers and take care of the home
men can take care of the house but not the other 2. and women get hit by old age faster too. they also degrade harder than men
it's nature. no amount of feels and feminism can change it
The Chevrons are locked, and the Iris is open. Stand Back
the study points out that only like 2 girls did an additional trigger thing and only 1 did another 2 or something like that. plus, it was really limited, they picked an age where girls have started developing and boys haven't and so on.
there was discussion on this on slashdot. they pointed out so many flaws on the article it wasn't even funny. but i'm sure there's a big bad conspiracy of men to keep women down and away from programming. that's how capitalism works after all
Creative writing is not a technical skill you fucking moron.
If you're a journalist writing about tech, you COVER tech.
If you write scripts for a movie, you're a WRITER. It doesn't not mean you are involved in the production of the actual movie.
Are you actually this fucking deluded to think that by writing a story for a game you are somehow technically gifted?
this is a silly way of looking at things. not all women want families and not all women experience biological changes at the same pace. the same can be said about men (to degree).
what i find problematic is the fact that women are settling for less than they deserve, then complaining about it. i'm not even blaming them, i'm just saying the answer isn't to blame any one thing or group of people, but to change the notion that this type of behavior is acceptable.
when you have gf,you are a fucker
nice meme dude
Woah edge master . Don't go in too hard.
You still haven't answered the question. Where along the hierarchy does the boundary fall that separates those that work on a computer game that are "in tech" with those who are "not in tech"? Does the PM who moved into the position from management count as "in tech"? What about the PM who moved into the position from development?
rofl. any american company who hires incompetent people due to muh feminism will just get trampled by international competitors, when they themselves don't decide to just take the jobs elsewhere. tech isn't a supermarket. the jobs can and will go to the most profitable place
have fun with that
These threads are always troll-magnets, no matter what the OP is.
That this one hasn't been deleted yet probably just means the mods haven't seen it.
>what i find problematic is the fact that women are settling for less than they deserve, then complaining about it.
What do you mean by "settling for less"?
People don't have a hell of a lot of say in what they get paid.
>i'm just saying the answer isn't to blame any one thing or group of people, but to change the notion that this type of behavior is acceptable.
Yeah, and that's the direction the more productive efforts are in.
It's just that a small percentage of folks think anything at all is "blaming men".
>two people with PhDs
I suspect most of the issues are with the representation of the study by a journalist, not the study itself.
There isn't a clear boundary.
>someone published something
>point out flaws
>bububu they're scientists! no one else knows better
>point out appeal to authority fallacy
>hurr durr muh feels
i can see why no one is willing to hire people like you
>women play more games and are significant in the industry because they play candy crush on their cell phones
>12-13 year old programmers
Gr8 b8 m8
what are you even on about? nowhere did i claim that these scientific studies are accurate. I'm speaking from firsthand life experience re: people's bodies are different, because they are.
calm down babe
It's obvious, if you work ON technology of some kind you work in tech. If you don't you are not in tech.
How hard is that to understand? If there were no boundries as you suggest then EVERYONE works in tech because chances are they use some kind of tech in their job.
If you write for a game studio, or do art for a game studio, you work FOR tech, not IN tech.
A 5 year old could understand this
>rofl. any american company who hires incompetent people due to muh feminism will just get trampled by international competitors,
Feminists aren't advocating for hiring incompetent women over competent men.
They're advocating for not ignoring competent women in the face of equally or less competent men.
I don't know why people keep claiming this.
Candy crush is a game. That you don't like it is kinda irrelevant.
>What do you mean by "settling for less"?
When offered a position with a given salary, many more women are inclined to just take it rather than attempt to negotiate a higher figure.
>People don't have a hell of a lot of say in what they get paid.
They have an awful lot more say than you seem to think.
>It's obvious, if you work ON technology of some kind you work in tech.
So then answer the question? Is a PM who spent years working as a developer someone who works in tech? Is a PM who came over from management without direct experience of development someone who works in tech? Is a prolific coder promoted to a "tech evangelist" who doesn't really code any more as part of their evangelism someone who works in tech?
salary is something you have some control over- you are not obligated to accept the position offered and you can certainly counteroffer with tact. to be fair, i'm speaking from personal experience and not hypothetically, and that's probably why i feel strongly about it.
my female colleagues are all part of this progressive mindset. it's unfortunate so many of the loud feminists are the stupid ones who shame all advocates. if you look at higher education and bigger tech companies, many of the women involved do not carry that ignorant mindset are are very realistic with the problems they face.
nah it sounds more like you just want to be associated with the tech industry by proxy to make yourself feel better
like people who do cold calling for a living but call themselves sales engineers
writing a script doesnt make you a video game developer
But that's the whole bait and switch. We are showed "misogyny" in major console and oc games while the women who make up a large percent of vidya consumers are being deliberately ignored, which deliberately ignores the fact that females aren't the main demographic of those games and the ones that are enjoy them.
Let em make all the faggy freemium games they want but don't try to force games that aren't for a certain demographic to fit another demographics arbitrary standards. That's like saying all vanilla ice cream should have equal parts chococolate so you don't trigger chocolate lovers.
It never was, Grace Hopper etc.
I'm just annoyed that so many people are thick enough to think there's actually an issue in computing because "muh sexism" despite the past 20 years of unheralded progress.
Why should they be equally represented and equally paid? Why should a female dev receive the same payment as a male dev who is not equally competent? If he is better at the job, why should he not receive more money? If she is better at the job, why should she not receive more money? The end result of this sort of movement is equality of misery. Insurance companies here were told they can't charge men and women different prices. What happened? Did prices meet in the middle? No. Women's premiums went up, men's premiums stayed more or less the same.
>Developer to PM
No he's a manager, PMs typically don't directly code or even look at code. They manage a project. They work in management, their field is management science or analytics.
>PM no experience handling a tech project
Same as above.
>Prolific coder promoted to tech expert, but doesn't code anymore
Doesn't sound like he's working at all frankly unless he's a consultant. He can advise on tech and has worked in tech.
Project management doesn't mean they work in tech if that's what you're getting at.
I'll assume you are replying to me (>>45425804)
>When offered a position with a given salary, many more women are inclined to just take it rather than attempt to negotiate a higher figure.
Is there any data for this?
If so, do you know why they don't negotiate?
Could be interesting.
>They have an awful lot more say than you seem to think.
If it's one company underpaying them, yes.
But in the face of a social trend, what can you do?
You can leave the feild altogether, protest it and risk what you have, or grit your teeth and take it.
Is it that surprising that lots of people take the last option?
>you are not obligated to accept the position offered and you can certainly counteroffer with tact.
I understand, but I'm curious WHY women would be less negotiate.
Is it because they feel they have less power to negotiate?
Because they don't think that they have as many other options, so they wont risk it?
>it's unfortunate so many of the loud feminists are the stupid ones who shame all advocates
The internet is mostly to blame for that.
Upsetting people and saying outrageous things makes you popular.
Making people uncomfortable and saying reasonable things gets you shunned or ignored.
I don't see how that's a bait and switch.
Actually, I'm not sure why you think those two things are related.
Yes, there is a bunch of misogyny is many console and mainstream games.
And Yes, lots of women play games.
Where is the connection?
>Let em make all the faggy freemium games they want but don't try to force games that aren't for a certain demographic to fit another demographics arbitrary standards.
>That's like saying all vanilla ice cream should have equal parts chococolate so you don't trigger chocolate lovers.
No-one is forcing anything.
And making more games isn't going to harm people who like other kinds of games.
It's not like the eleventh commandment is that only three games a year may be made.
I don't get understand you.
I do electrical engineering so there isn't many girls. They are either straight from India,China or Russia. They are also a pleasure to work with when I can understand them. I find it funny that women from more "oppressed" countries can find their way on to tech but not the ones here just complain.
Does your boss code? Is he actually building the system in any way?
A PM just requires the skill set to manage a project.
If he needs to make a judgement call or know something about a system, he gets a consultant or an analyst to make a recommendation for him.
I know PMs that do not work with tech period. They handle projects that are mostly architectural work or engineering work that involves typically classical physics.