Or those contemplating going vegan.
What's your reason? Health or morality?
Imagine if no animal would suffer and meat would magically appear on command. Would you still be a vegan?
If it's for health...what evidence do you have that vegan is actually better in the long run?
I'd go vegetarian if there was actually a meat substitute that was effectively indiscernible from real meat, because I see no harm in eating eggs/dairy, any ethical issues come from living conditions of animals in my mind. It would be entirely for the environmental benefit.
Morality and better tasting cum.
>Would you still be a vegan?
Unless the meat is synthetic I wouldn't eat it. I don't want to die and neither do the vast majority of animals.
Those actually exist, they're just twice the price of meat. Also by supporting the diary industry you're supporting rape directly and the meat industry indirectly.
Ever tried seitan, anon? I tried it once at a gf's behest, it was pretty good, shit is too expensive for my budget though. I've started eating tofu two or three times a week to cut back on all the ground beef and because the macros are god tier, it's basically protein slime.
Environmental benefit. Cool, haven't heard that one too often. How about economical repercussions? Farmers? Industry workers? etc.
How about local production? Remember that not all fruits are found locally, so you'd not only be cutting the jobs of farmers, but you'd also be limiting local production.
Better tasting cum? Aware me on that.
Why would you want your cum to taste better other than if your boyfriend swallows?
Effectively indiscernible includes price.
>Artificial insemination = rape dontchusee?
>It's not like animal rape ever happens in nature, entirely a human invention.
>By drinking tap water you are indirectly supporting the evil corporation DuPont who supplies your government with fluorine for water
Yeah I've heard of those substitutes, but price is a limiting factor for me
You're implying that to create larger quantities of meat substitutes we wouldn't need more plant/biofuel/feedstock for it's production. As for industry workers, this new large meat substitute industry would open up new jobs. You sound like those people who went around destroying automatic looms and shit in the early 20th century because they afraid of "the machines taking our jobs!" And why would replacing meat in my diet reduce the amount of locally grown vegetables I eat? That's a whole other portion of my diet.
And before you lynch me, I have reduced my meat intake, and I'm vegetarian about 4 days a week.
>shit is too expensive for my budget though
I can buy a kilo of gluten (the only ingredient of seitan, spices aside) for 4 euros or less online. its literally cheaper protein then protein powder (protein is incomplete though).
>Why would you want your cum to taste better other than if your boyfriend swallows?
Killing also happens in nature, but that doesn't mean we should go out with our ARs and just shoot everyone.
Da gubmint doesn't put fluorine in the water here though.
massive amounts of land need to be set aside for say cattle or whatever for grazing or producing grain etc. This is really bad if, say, rainforest is in the way, or if you like/rely on wildlife. Which means slash and burn. Then there's all of the animal shit that gets into the water creating algal blooms and eutrophication, which is actually a pretty big problem around rivers and in the oceans near river mouths. Biodiversity goes down (because of ecosystem destruction to grow one thing), and we essentially start living off of monoculture foods, which means that if massive cow killing disease comes through, we're all fucked. We are definitely destroying biodiversity and polluting the shit out of the world by growing large animals for food. If climate change is your thing, then the slash and burn ain't god at all. Fuck I love meat, though.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't go out with our ARs and shoot animals though. Also I fail to see how(or why) I am to drill a well in a city of 120000 from my apartment to avoid harmless fluorine levels.
>Doesn't mean we shouldn't go out with our ARs and shoot animals though.
Except it does. Unless your nearest neighbour is 100km away.
>Also I fail to see how(or why) I am to drill a well in a city of 120000 from my apartment to avoid harmless fluorine levels.
Don't deliberately misinterpret my usage of the word animal to include people with it. Also the only people I know who don't have fluorinated water have wells, fluorine is required by legislation where I live if you are hooked up to a waterworks system.
No...if everyone becomes a vegan, the need for vegies/fruit will blow up. Do you really expect local farms to keep up with exports? It'll destroy their local economy. Stores will get it for cheaper overseas.
It was a joke, mate.
And that wouldn't happen if it was all replaced by veggies/fruit factories? They still need the space..they still use chemicals.
So the animals themselves are the issue? So if the land/chemical usage/etc. remained the same but it was replaced with fruits/veggies, there would be no problem?
Demand for meat globally is rising you retard. What difference does it make that a couple
million beta-orbiters in the West switch to veganism when a billion pajeets with rising wages want more meat.
Oh I know - you'll get weaker, eating an unbalanced diet, and they won't. Stay cuckold my friend
Less land is required for growing plants
Vegetables can be grown without monoculture
Chemicals are used but less hormones which can affect people and animals
Also, no-one claimed that veg production was harmfree. Mass food production of any kind has its issues
India has proportionally the highest number of vegetarians because Hindus believe in Karma and reincarnation
If we pave the way and show it can be done well done, India could help shape the global food industry as it gets more developed
What I'm saying is that using buyer power to improve conditions has the opposite effects.
Buy less meat => less profit for company
Less profit for company => company needs to cheapen its labor
How to cheapen labor? Cheapen the conditions in which the animals are kept and how they're killed. No more fancy crap for their well-being, etc. because they no longer have the $$ necessary to pay for it.
It's nowhere near as much as you think
The amount of land and water it takes to make 100g of beef is like 10 times more than 100g of rice but the calorie content is not 10x as much
I love meat but this is fucking disgusting.
I don't know how people eat it without cooking it through all the way.
<--- This is 10000x better.
A health conscious omnivore will live a similar amount of time as a health conscious vegan
It's not about not eating meat, it's about limiting meat consumption you idiot. A vegan diet is deficient in necessary vitamins and minerals, as well as certain oils.
Here, read some actual medical journals instead of buzzfeed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2352199/ (it has a link to the main article)
I'm considering it, at least vegetarian anyways. The best tasting meat substitutes in the UK have egg whites in.
What I don't get is why almost everywhere I look I see people advising to not eat fat, I get the whole sat fat thing, but aren't nuts and shit like avocados supposed to be great?
I would be doing it for the environment, I really don't care that much about animals.
Bonus question, the fuck do I get vitamin E from other than nasty ass sun flower seeds; I plugged a few sample diets into cronometer and vitamin E keeps coming up short.
Nothing to do with blood. I eat blood sausages on a regular basis.
It's just that it tastes disgusting, it really does. Well cooked meat truly triumphs.
not a reason not a valid concern. Vegans are not any more healthier than omnivores and often less healthy if they do not supplement for what they do not get in meat, nor are they more moral or ethical
>he doesn't know how large companies secure investment and stay afloat even with falling revenues
the only thing you might have to supplement (I never did, 6 years vegan) is b12. however, b12 is also supplemented to food animals. the reason for that is that modern overfarming reduces the amount of b12 in plants.
>A vegan diet is deficient in necessary vitamins and minerals, as well as certain oils.
You mean the same vitamins and minerals I can take supplements for? Wow!
Did you even read the study you linked?
This has to be the most unfounded argument I've ever seen.
"aren't designed to eat it"
Define "aren't designed".
Humans weren't designed to build airplanes and do astrophysics, and we still did and it was beneficial.
yes, let's ply strict vegetarians with meat suddenly and not expect adverse effects.
you must be an idiot if you don't think sudden diet changes cause stronger reactions in body composition
comparing vegetarians, who are more likely to eat healthier to uncontrolled non-vegetarians who probably eat out at mcdonalds erryday sure is a good way to find objective conclusions (sarc.)
literally states that those with genetic predisposition to developing diabetes will increase the risk whilst eating eggs. how is this an argument for veganism?
>lol ur wrong u gon die
It seems I have found randy from detroit who never made it past grade 8 in school.
What am I lacking exactly? B12 is the only thing you might not get enough of from your diet. A lifting related thing you definetly will NOT have as a vegan is creatine. But then again, most omnivores supplement that too.
Moral & environmental reasons. I believe animals can suffer, and the way we farm meat right now causes animal suffering.
Also eating meat (beef & pork in particular) is v bad for the climate.
I don't often post as I'm more often a lurker but one recurring theme in this thread seems to be people arguing meat is bad because of the environmental harm.
I by no means no a lot on the subject, I have studied countryside management in the past, albeit not a high level. I would just like to ask what people think this environmental harm is?
I'm not attacking opinions, it's more curiosity. Part of my studies were 'conservation grazing', this is using livestock grazing to encourage growth of wildflowers, conservation of landscapes such as heathland and is very beneficial to the land. Of course as a relatively modern concept it's not entirely common practice but it is being encouraged and a shift in farming is happening, particularly in the UK.
My main argument however is that although people feel meat is detrimental to the environment, do they really think crops are any better?
When the industrial revolution happened we found methods of increasing crop yields insane amounts, in the past century pesticides and genetic modification have increased yield even further. However what we are now trying to tackle is the prevailing mono culture and pesticide poisoning. A monoculture is when only one species exists, for example a large maize field, pesticides eliminate weeds and a large area of land is simple maize.
In the past hundred years birds traditionally inhabiting farmland dropped 50% from 600 million to 300 million in the UK. This is due to the removal of hedgerows and ploughing over meadows, as well as other habitat removing methods of intense agricultural method. Due to this created culture of agricultural intensification with no thought for the environment there was also a rise in general pollutants, such as runoff from arable land into streams and rivers. The growing rise in monoculture lead to a less stable and well rounded ecosystem that only now is being thoroughly thought about.
Our farming methods have an large effect on the biodiversity of the land, biodiversity is key to sustaining life. It may help to put it like this - if only one species exists then what happens to our food supply when a disease spreads across it? As over the centuries and millennia has happened to countless crops and livestock. If pesticides continues to kill off invertebrates then what happens to the birds that rely on them for a food source? What then happens to the plants and trees that rely on their nuts/berries/fruits being eaten by birds and then shit out to spread their seed?
It's recently been published that one of the worlds most popular pesticides is the biggest reason why bees are dying out, the key pollinators. What happens when no wildflowers exist for insects?
The problem goes much deeper than livestock pollution. My question is this:
In a high populated capitalist society how is it possible to sustain our need for food as well as securing environmental security morally?
literally noone I know takes creatine lol
only exists in direct form in meat, fish, eggs etc
conversion from beta-carotene is inefficient thus many vegans inadvertently lack this vit
again, only found in meat products. no plant alternatives
specifically certain amino acids. attainable through a vegan diet but much harder to do so, also in lower quantities obviously
phytic acid, high in vegan diets, binds to zinc and other minerals, stopping their absoroption in the digestive tract. again, many vegans experience deficiencies
well done, you mentioned B12. vegans also struggle to get omega 3s, especially the DHA form necessary for brain function. again, can be converted from ALA (the primary vege form) but at an extremely inefficient rate, and high levels of ALA have been linked to adverse effects on the eyes
this took ages to write, Im gonna go eat dinner. Im happy youre happy as a vegan but the fact is it's a totally unbalanced diet, with many vegans touting its positive effects but completely omitting the negatives (probably because they're not even aware).
a limited meat consumption is recommended by virtually all medical journals and medical bodies around the world. Im happy with my balanced, and this is why vegans are annoying - because you wont change us, yet you keep spewing lefty bs :^)
Eat a variety of food
Eat food that doesn't require huge amounts of land and resources to grow
Don't be tight arse when it comes to food, we have some a lack of respect t for food and expect it to be so cheap
I have a fantasy about the future where the majority of people grow at least 20% of their own food and we go back to trading things we've grown and made instead of currency
guy who just shit out two paragraphs on farming here
He's partially right, the nutrient content contaminates for example rivers and streams and disrupts a chemical balance, it can cause extreme disruption to the species communities existing and relying in and around water systems.
Exactly that, I'm right with you this is how it should be. But the reason I asked how a 'high populated capitalist society' sustains itself is because part of the problem is competitive market leads us to intensive agriculture where farmers lower prices to compete but have to produce more.
The EU are doing great work in paying subsidies to farmers who meet certain guidelines to encourage biodiversity, but it simply isn't enough. There needs to be a global shift towards sustainable agriculture, where as right now the subsidies encourage what are essentially token gestures towards a good course.
Fine, better example: are you going to stop eating soy products because it indirectly benefits Monsanto at the cost of farmers? At what point to we stop caring about derivatives. Besides that dairy cattle and beef cattle happen to be quite separate.
good argument, vegan shitlord
also have you heard of winter? its this thing where it gets really cold, the days shorten and people generally dont sunbathe. incidentally its this season where loads of people are deficient in vitamin D. hmm, could it be?
>the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another
HAHAHAHAHAHA, VEGANS, WHEN WILL THEY LEARN
every fifth european has a lack of this. fucking unhealthy umnivores :,)
most of it is produced by the skin under sunlight. other sources are innards (most people dont eat those), fatty fishes (who eats enough of those that it matters?) and eggs (very low number).
decent point, thats why protein calculators exist so you can calculate how much you need.
now I have not put too much time into this, but what I can see: zinc influences how much iron and copper the body takes in, copper influences how much zinc the body takes in. you should not take too much zinc. I would say that most people who do not specifically manage for these values have an imbalance here, omnivore or not.
contradicting research about how good the plant alternative is. again, how many people you know eat significant doses of fish or take fishoil?
Now do you know if you take in enough of those? Or maybe you take in too much, or in the wrong mixture. Do you track zinc, iron and copper? neither do I.
This is why you are annoying: you do not know if you may be unhealthy, or how balanced your micronutrients are. However, you are absolutely convinced that you are the epitome of health into the least improtant micronutrients becaus you eat hamburgers. Thats why you are annoying.
>vegitarians and omnivores get supplemented creatine
>baseline is either equal or better for the vegitarians
>however, they profit far more from creatine and perform much better then the omnis
>result: omnis are retarded
Do have any links or studies that show soy will turn men into girls?
Found this on wiki:
A 2010 meta-analysis of fifteen placebo-controlled studies said that "neither soy foods nor isoflavone supplements alter measures of bioavailable testosterone concentrations in men." Furthermore, isoflavone supplementation has no effect on sperm concentration, count or motility, and it leads to no observable changes in testicular or ejaculate volume.
I've already stated the average omnivore doesnt bother about a healthy diet, I do. I dont care about them.
Read up on vitamin D, the reason people get deficient in Vitamin D is due to lack of sun in winter etc. Meat sources provide enough to keep a healthy omnivore on a safe level.
Protein calculators wasnt the point - regardless of what you say, plant sources just have lower amounts of aa's.
You dont know anything about zinc uptake so your uneducated summation is useless.
With regards to omegas, again, most of my healthy-minded friends (most omnivores, like me) eat a lot of fish (healthier than meat) and/or take cod liver oil.
Simple blood tests will give you a general picture of your health, something I do maybe once a year, so thanks for your concern, but I am quite healthy :)
Oh, I don't eat hamburgers :) good assumption though!
nothing in the article you posted corroborated what you said :^)
they didn't even compare omnis and veges, they compared omni+creatine/omni+placebo and vege+creatine/vege+placebo
guess you're just plain retarded then?
PS: I said I don't take creatine, so why was this a point in the first place?
>> What's your reason? Health or morality?
My doctor said I should due to a gut issue I have with red meat. I am also lactose intolerant. At first it was a health thing but I'd be lying if I said there weren't any ethics involved. My plant based diet exposed me to the facts on the industry.
>> Imagine if no animal would suffer and meat would magically appear on command. Would you still be a vegan?
Maybe only chicken
>> If it's for health...what evidence do you have that vegan is actually better in the long run?
Well I suppose just how my body runs. Most famous vegans *cough*Freelee*cough* talk shit. A lot of the information is he said she said. Also one report maybe supported and then countered easily. In a sense of health listen to your body but learn how to tell if you're not responding well to a diet or if you are craving certain foods due to needing n nutrient present in that food.
I eat a pescetarian diet, essentially a vegan who allows certain fish, milk and eggs.
I do it for morality and health. It isn't expensive, there are many studies showing the harmful effects of red meat, it is righteous, my gains are great, my semen tastes better and I personally have more long-term energy, though claims like that are unreliable. I feel less weighed down having been on such a diet for a while, I will say.
I highly recommend it.
I also have a greater appreciation of cuisine. Red meat is very overwhelming and dulling to the senses.
That has nothing to do with man boobs you retard. Steroids give you ultra high test but you also get gyno, because the estrogen goes through the roof. Find a study related to estrogen levels
>vegetarian by choice since I was 6
>ever since I found out people the conditions in which cows and pigs live and die to put burgers on my plate I've been completely disgusted by meat
>eat dairy, eggs, and fish by-products (fish are basically meaty sea-plants) for protein
>even if you eat meat there's absolutely no justification for eating it recreationally and in higher quantities than nutritionally necessary
>enjoy being on the wrong side of history and appearing on "why were people so backwards regarding animal rights in the early 2000s" studies our grand-grand kids will conduct.
>"but le bacon xdxdxdxdxd"
I actually went vegetarian for a month, lacto-ovo vegetarian for that matter, so I still ate eggs and dairy, but no meat for one month. Gains were just fine, nothing went wrong, felt pretty aight. But I missed meat so sometimes I eat it, but I definitely don't eat nearly as much meat as I used to.
I would go vegan, I know all the health benefits and all the good things it does, I know, but I'm a college student and making gains is difficult enough as it is. But honestly, my main reason is probably taste, vegan foods generally taste like shit, and I like mac and cheese too much.
Reddit please don't play dumb and act like you can't make a distinction between your own species and cattle.You're welcome to try it though,I would get life insurance before it if I was you.
>it's a cuck gets wifi in his cuckshed for doing such a good job prepping his wife's bull episode
there are vegan vitamin d sources, zinc sources, you state yourself even you take supplements. Im not the guy youre arguing with but what are yo7 even arguing about? Also plant proteins have mixed amino acids that can be supplemented with other proteins, right? I just fail to see what youre even trying to say other than a little information providing which doesnt make sense because you seem like youre arguing for something?
>Humans aren't designed to eat it.
It's a fact humans can digest it without any ill effects and our bodies use it' nutrients for a wole lot of things. Including it's protein for muscle building
I have a couple reasons for deciding to go vegan personally.
First off I love animals, and I think it´s absolutely ridiculous to put dogs and cats in a category called pets, while we kill other animals that can feel pain as well - some of them are even smarter than these "pets". I wouldn´t be able to kill a living being in cold blood, so why let others do it for me? I don´t know whether to laugh or cry, when people call vegans crazy, cultist or sociopaths - when our values are about nonviolence and compassion. Some vegans are rather toxic though, and I don´t support vegans that mock or put people down. It is however extremely important to spread the message, whether it is forcefully, passively, negatively or positively.
Then there´s the environmental aspect of it. Animal agriculture is the leading problem of environmental destruction, and we really don´t need to fuck up this planet more than it already is.
Thirdly, if we used the resources used to feed the slaughterhouse animals on humans instead, we would probably be able to feed about every single person on this planet, that is currently suffering from starvation.
Fourthly, the more vegans that represent this shift in consciousness, the more products like mock-meat we get, as well as organic foods etc. etc. The price will also become very low for these foods, because it will become the standard way of eating and living. It´s all about demand and supply.
Lastly - the obvious health aspects. You feel better in your body because you are eating the herbivorous diet, that you were designed to eat in the first place. You will also reduce your risk of fatal diseases significantly and clear up your sinuses, so you can breathe naturally. Also, you don´t have to feel shitty when going to bed, because you know you aren´t contributing to this insane destructive behaviour of eating animal products, and all the problems that follows suit.
Need i say more?
Im just an anon that wants to specifically talk about one part you said, people arent equal, believe it or not people dont view others as equals and not everyone is worth as much in other peoples eyes, for example you will always value those closer to you than for example a stranger, likewise, just as there exists a gulf between the inherent values of people when they are perceived by others, there exists a gulf between humans and animals, and then yet another gulf between animals themselves with for example cuter animals being valued more than ugly ones, which is also similar to humans where smarter, more beautiful humans are prefered over less attractive ones, like im sure you would prefer an attractive husband or wife over an ugly one all other things equal.
cont. this difference in value which is based on emotional attatchment, blood ties, beauty, intelligence, ability etc........ permeates humanity and the animal kingdom, which perfectly explains why some animals are viewed as pets and others as food.
Or when for example milions of people die in some 3rd world country isnt major news, but a relativey minor number in a 1st world country is major news.
Or even why the death of a close relative affects you more than the death of a stranger.