I've read the sticky and done my own research outside of here. Some of you guys mention that you need to have a proper strength base before moving onto hypertrophy. Others say it's not necessary.
Can I just get a CLEAR FUCKING ANSWER? STRENGTH AND BEAN LEAN ARE MY PRIORITIES. SHOULD I DO AXBXCXX, ABXABXX, AXBXA BXAXB.
I'M 5'7" 135 POUNDS I RUN A LOT
Let me explain this to you better than the sticky can.
You are, right now, an untrained lifter. Your potential to build muscle is much, much greater than other peoples' because you have yet to begin training for weightlifting. Because of this, you should not do a program that divides your body into a bunch of parts and has you lifting minuscule amounts of weight for a lot of reps.
Instead, you should focus on full body workouts that target the main muscles and require stabilization from smaller muscles.
Starting Strength does this. By going AxBxAxx & BxAxBxx, you'll pack on much more muscle and gain much more strength.
DO NOT THINK THAT YOU CAN SOMEHOW BECOME A GREEK GOD IMMEDIATELY.
Lifting is a long road that you need to journey. By doing SS now and potentially feeling like you look like shit while doing it, you'll set yourself up for success down the road. You'll gain the strength base you need in one years time to move on to a more intermediate program that will build the hypertrophy you so desire.
So here's what I would do.
>Pendlay Rows 3x5 or Powercleans 5x3
>Chin Ups 3xF
Remember though, you are only 135lbs right now. You are skinny. You will need to EAT. By this I mean you need to really keep track of your calories with MyFitnessPal and really know that you're eating at a surplus. If you're not eating at a surplus over your TDEE, then you're wasting valuable time.
See you in one year when you've become the strongest guy in your gym and you're ready to move on to becoming a Greek God.
Strength = hypertrophy
Specially for natty lifters.
Bodybuilding routines are only useful for those on roids.
After the first couple of months you can add more exercises for the arms and stuff. Just stick to the main lifts for at least 2 months.
>>Pendlay Rows 3x5 or Powercleans 5x3
I suggest light deadlifts 3x5 at 80% instead of rows, if you don't wanna do power cleans for some reason.
The objective of the power cleans is to train for the deadlift while allowing recovery. The row doesn't help much with the deadlift since it's a completely different type of exercise.
I'd say SS for 6 months or so then move on to Texas Method, which has much higher volume and will allow for further muscle growth for a more intermediate lifter (while making it easier to progress since it's weekly progression)
I agree and disagree.
Power cleans require you to kind of "shrug" at the top to propel the weight. This is why Rip actually says that you can substitute power cleans with BB rows.
Power cleans can be hard for a beginner who doesn't have a coach. I personally fucked up my lower back from incorrectly doing the lift and was extremely upset at how long it took for me to recover.
On the other hand, it is difficult for a beginner to do "light" deadlifts. Many times the lifter is not strong enough to do 1 plate easily enough that it is considered "light". This means they will be pulling from a shorter height by using smaller weights which doesn't help train the movement very well.
Furthermore, by low bar squatting properly, the lifter should be training the lower back well enough that the deadlift will progress decently. By incorporating rows, the lifter will gain a stronger upper back as well which creates balance in the physique.
>This is why Rip actually says that you can substitute power cleans with BB rows.
He actually repeats all the time and in all caps and bold letters that the rows are not a substitute for the power clean.
>Power cleans can be hard for a beginner who doesn't have a coach
Not really, it's easy as fuck. The clean is pretty hard but the power clean is pretty simple and the movement is fairly natural once you figure out the racking position.
You don't need rows because you are doing chinups, and chinups are better at building your back anyways because of the much longer range of motion (also better for the arms)
If you have a proper strength base, you will be less prone to injury. Obv any untrained person starting a hypotraphy routine will most likely injure themselves somehow just from lack of experience in lifting. A good base is always an asset for improvement.
>minuscule amounts of weight for a lot of reps
Shouldn't do this for strength training / size anyway.
OP, Terry Crews says the best 3 exercises for mass gain are squats, pullups, and power cleans. Motivation keys are super helpful -- imagining how great it feels when the idea of the gym comes up instead of just the techniques, maybe coming with a group (and really pushing those that don't invite you or such), and finding what you really like about lifting -- huge thighs, muscle girls -- in other words, standards.
Power cleans *can* be simple, but it helps to utilize full motions and not just trying to "shrug at the top" or whatever. Instead of trying to "wrist and shoulder" it, the weight should be evenly distributed through all muscles.
This video's got a point that could potentially be applied: https://youtu.be/1TP9BKqk_gs .. really getting the arms back in their proper vector to get momentum and to minimize form.
I say fuck 5 rep lifts. 1-3 is probably going to produce the most results because of the focus on mastering weights.
Proper posture is super helpful. Rolling your extremities to facing forward should roll ball joints almost into place for that neutral position. Enjoy.
You should ALWAYS do remedial work if it's your first year training unless you WANT to get injured, perhaps severely, by doing too much too soon!
Be damned sure you include lots of core work (which means your BACK muscles too not just your ABS, damnit, your entire core!) because if your core is weak then YOU are weak no matter how big your prime movers are.
Spend at LEAST 6-8 weeks doing low weight and high reps to spark adaptation and get your entire body ready for higher weight and fewer reps. Ignore the fools and haters. You'll thank me for this advice later.
I said: YOUR FIRST YEAR TRAINING. As in: 'HUNGRY SKELETON MODE'. You probably aren't a 'hungry skeleton' lifting 242lbs deadlift. I'm literally talking about some skinny kid who has never lifted anything heavier than two sacks of groceries his whole life. You don't take someone like that and have him deadlift 242lbs unless your intention is to see him get injured.
I dont think u understand what hes saying, hes saying u can only train at the level u can train at and u have to start at the bottom like everyone else so why not do it right instead of having problems later?
> our potential to build muscle is much, much greater than other peoples' because you have yet to begin training for weightlifting. Because of this, you should not do a program that divides your body into a bunch of parts and has you lifting minuscule amounts of weight for a lot of reps.
You've literally explained nothing. Why should an untrained lifter focus on full body exercises, why high weight, why focusing on lower body like SS?
SS fags never explain this shit.
OP SS is a meme programme, it's done because it suits fit to think that it has a super seecrket workout that makes them superior to other gym users. There is no evidence that a noob who wants to gain volume is better off focusing on strength exercises and then moving to volume building exercises, and it's naturally counter inutative to think this would get better results than focusing on volume-building exercises from the start.
So I want to start SS but fucked my right shoulder up on a motorcycle, the whole arm is in a sling until I have surgery in 2 weeks then after that probably in a cast of sling for ~6 months they said. So what exercises could I swap in for deadlifts chin ups etc, that could help me keep a base strength without overtraining my left arm since my right will be weak at first for s few months
What do you mean he explained nothing? You must have poor reading comprehension skills, let me lay it out in green text since that's probably all you're used to reading:
>be you, autistic skinny 16 year old
>slowly gains muscle and strength, but does a ridiculously low volume
>still looks like a skinny bitch after 1 year but has a 6 pack so gainz rite?
>be smart skinny 4chan user
>gains mass amounts of strength (noob gains) and in turn, muscle from doing large volume
>very strong and big after 1 year but no 6 pack. looks masculine
>can now do a hypertrophy program if his goal is to become "shredded", and will actually look muscular and not like a holocaust victim.
You're retarded and honestly probably don't lift. Volume is volume period, there is no such thing as a strength exercise or a volume exercise. Doing 3x5 or 5x5 bench and ohp in a 3xweek alternating fashion will absolutely add size to your upper body, the problem is that people have SHIT FORM so you wind up with someone squatting poorly 3x week and progressing, probably raping their lower back, hips and knees in the process, and not putting enough intensity or focus into the bench and rowing technique, so the legs gain on frequency alone and the upper body lags. People recommend it because its (meant) to make you LEARN THE LIFTS so that over time (years and years) you can make legit, injury free progress on the main compounds, which unless you're roiding or genetically gifted is ABSOLUTELY necessary for a strong, balanced and aesthetic physique.
Do full body yoga/stretching and any kind of rehab/prehab for your shoulder that you can or are advised to do. Learn all the lifts as best you can with your shoulder in a cast (this won't be well at all, but fundamentally you want to work out a good bottom position for the squat and deadlift which you can still sorta do with an arm in a cast). You want to learn to hip-hinge, brace your core, and also have the flexibility to hit depth in a squat without buttwink. I wouldn't really start doing any kind of heavy lifting until your shoulders fully healed, but in the meantime I highly recommend working out your anthropometrical particularities and tight/dysfunctional shit so when the time comes to actually try and progress on squats 3x week you can focus on the squatting, and not why your hip is in pain and your back is rounding and etc, which is what you'll have to contend with if your build isn't optimal for squatting and you also have dysfunctional hip/glutes and weak core like most untrained people.
Tl:dr 6mo to a year is not that long to wait and just do conditioning and flexibility/stability work, I can't really think of any effective one-armed exercise that doesn't involve the other arm and there doesn't seem a point in training one without the other. Maybe planks?
The fact you SS advocates always get so butthurt whenever somebody doubts your routine only adds to my point. SS is a religious meme that only exists because it makes people feel like they have some secret insight into lifting that makes them better than the average guy. Every single argument i've read supporting SS is littered with value judgements and subjective opinions e.g. 'hurr with ss u look masucline u just want a sixpack lo ur a skinnny fag' or implications to that extent.
The fact is that a noob lifter will gain size and strength on nearly any programme. There is no evidence that following a programme aiming at strength gains, then 'using' the strength gains to lift for hypertrophy but at a higher volume, will result in an overall increase in the volume lifted, let alone an increased rate of hypertrophy overall.
Despite the fact that every argument in favor of SS is simply supposition, the downsides are evident in that following SS in that you A) focus on legs to an extent disproportionate to the priorities most lifters place on them, in terms of their desired physique B) provided we believe that SS, in the beginning, has less hypertrophy than a typical beginners routine (i.e. it sacrifices hypertrophy for strength gains ) the lifter is unable to see as much visible progress in his physique and is therefore more likely to become discouraged
Your arguments against SS:
>smart, dedicated people do it and recommend it to others
>people with low motivation and drive will fail SS because they won't get a 6 pack quickly
>squatting lots isnt good (?)
also please improve your English skills before trying to start arguments on 4chan.
> anecdotal evidence at best. Needs to be taken in the context of the vast majority who follow normal beginner hypertrophy routines.
> the goal is to help people achieve their goals, as such easiness of motivation is a relevant consideration, especially if there is no evidence for any other reasons to prefer one programme over another.
> SS contains far more emphasis on the lower body than is reasonable considering the physique goals of most beginning lifters. It isn't about squatting being bad, but recommending a routine that matches the goals of those pursuing it as closely as possible without expending unnecessary effort.
I'm gonna jump in her too. I'm 5'11" and 140lbs and run a lot too, mile to half marathon, depending the time of year and what not. I can't run right now, my achilles tendinitis. I want to start lifting some. I did SS before but it whooped my ass running because of all the DL and squat. my runs went from 8-10 miles pretty quick to struggling for four. I just quit lifting after a month. Should I just say fuck it and try SS again or do something else?
My main gig is running, so that's priority but i'd like to not be so damn flat
>recommending a routine that matches the goals of those pursuing it as closely as possible without expending unnecessary effort.
SS is THE best starting point for 95% of people's goals. If you want to look like Zyzz as soon as possible, the best thing to do is start with SS and use that to get a strength base/learn all of the lifts before switching to a hypertrophy program to get definition. Doing hypertrophy alone doesn't add much muscle mass in comparison to a full body AxBx program, so, if someone starts with a hypertrophy based program, they'll end up looking like Bryan Silva.
I'm not protesting against hypertrophy, but if you're thinking long term, almost any physique related goals will be reached quicker and more effectively if you start out with a strength base.
As per the last point, if you have a lot of free time/and/or truly love lifting heavy things and putting them down.
But a guy with an actual job - why on earth would I demand that he performs the most demanding and, relatively speaking, dangerous lift in circulation if neither he, nor women, want the 'gains' that squats will give him? Let alone have him do that and be unable to grow at a proportional rate in his upper body, to the extent that it is possible (and we've all seen the pictures) that he'll even look worse after following said routine?
Like I said, SS is madness, and the only reason it exists is because people on 4chan need a super secret hacker 'insight' into lifting that allows them to feel superior to the average sheeple and sustain a non-normie lifting identity.
> i'm not like the OTHER gymbros teeheehee
>the most demanding and, relatively speaking, dangerous lift in circulation
Sure, it takes the most energy to complete, but it's far from the most dangerous. Squatting is probably the safest of all compound barbell lifts if you're in a squat rack/power rack and know proper form.
>if neither he, nor women, want the 'gains' that squats will give him?
Women like a nice shapely ass on a man
>be unable to grow at a proportional rate in his upper body, to the extent that it is possible (and we've all seen the pictures)
The photos that get tossed around by SS-deniers are genetic freaks. If you have unfortunate genetics you're going to have to personalize your workout around your weaknesses.
You're acting as if SS is a way of life for some people, but NOBODY does SS for more than a couple years, most people switch after 6 months or so. It does exactly what it advertises and is very effective at that. Starting Strength. It gives you a great base of muscle and also teaches you how to work in a gym.
> SS is THE best starting point for 95% of people's goals. If you want to look like Zyzz as soon as possible, the best thing to do is start with SS and use that to get a strength base/learn all of the lifts before switching to a hypertrophy program to get definition.
Do you even listen to yourself? ''get definition?'' I thought rule 1 of /fit/ was that 'defining muscles' was bullshit only women fell for?
> strength base
There's that word again. Note that it's never explained why exactly why focusing on building a strength base and THEN switching to hypertrophy, is better than focusing on hypertrophy from the start. I'm told the logic is that the strength gains enable you to lift at a higher volume that'll lead to more hypertrophy overall, but if that was true why does it suddenly start becoming untrue when you get passed the beginner stage? Why not focus on strength all your lifting career? Sure you're growth in pounds lifted will slow down but you'll still be lifting heavier than you would if you went full hypertrophy.
I mean the body is a weird thing, it could be that you are right -- but there is no prima facei reason to believe that you are, and at least some intuitive appeal in the idea that if you want hypertrophy, you do a routine focused on it from the start rather than after six months on a strength routine.
> It does exactly what it advertises and is very effective at that. Starting Strength. It gives you a great base of muscle and also teaches you how to work in a gym.
Exactly! The problem is that people then advertise it too all lifters, not only those who want 'starting strength.'
That said Rippletits himself advocates it for all lifters, even those who want hypertrophy - so it isn't just a case of people perverting the writings of the prophet.
>Sure, it takes the most energy to complete, but it's far from the most dangerous. Squatting is probably the safest of all compound barbell lifts if you're in a squat rack/power rack and know proper form.
1) Do you know this? Have you seen any studies? Have we accounted for possible spinal problems as well - I say this annecodtally, but I get some sciatic pain after squatting, and the idea that putting 100s of pounds of extra load on your unadapted spine isn't good for it seems to make sense. Obsese people have greater back problems - where you'd think that comes from.
Likewise, notice the caveat, 'with proper form.' There is a tendency for SS-lovers to dismiss anyone who fucks up, or has difficulties, because...well..they didn't do it right. So squats could have a high rate of injury because people fuck up the form, but that isn't a relevant consideration to SS fanboys because they sinned against the programme so their injuries don't count. Likewise for t-rex mode freaks or people who GOMAD and get fat and so on.
You don't seem to understand. I can tell from your post that you haven't started lifting but have read lots of 4chan. There is no fundamental difference in an untrained lifter doing 3x5 or 5x5 of bench/ohp 3x each week and a lifter doing an 'aesthetics routine' most likely a PPL which is the same but with less frequency on any lift and a higher volume (which a true beginner wouldnt need for at least 4-6 months). If you had lifted before and taken a 45 kg bench for 5x5 to an 80kg 3x5 bench over the course of ~6mo or so while actually eating you'd know you sure as fuck gain size. No one is saying you shouldn't do some accessory work for triceps, delts and upper back, but initially you should just do the main lifts and get good at them. I'm not even advocating SS, just do fullbody 3xweek adding bodybuilding accessories as you need and you'll make sick gains.
>Do you even listen to yourself? ''get definition?'' I thought rule 1 of /fit/ was that 'defining muscles' was bullshit only women fell for?
Ok now I know for sure you're trolling. You brought up "what women want".
>Exactly! The problem is that people then advertise it too all lifters, not only those who want 'starting strength.'
4chan doesn't answer everyone's question with "DO SS AND GOMAD!!!!!!!!!" - people only get those responses when they're a skinny dyel that wants to look like Zyzz, because that is the most effective way to start. Not sure what world you are living in, but nobodies saying "if you're not doing SS for the rest of your life you're retarded"
>So squats could have a high rate of injury because people fuck up the form, but that isn't a relevant consideration to SS fanboys because they sinned against the programme so their injuries don't count
You can't blame any routine for getting an injury. It's your fault for fucking up the lift or doing more than your body can handle. Sure, you may have a higher chance to get a squat related injury if you squat more often, but you also have a higher chance of dropping the bar on your neck and dying while benching more often, or winning the lottery if you buy more lottery tickets. You just have to not be a retard
Volume requirements for growth are, to a large part, determined by how much mass you already have. Beginners can hit that easily within a higher frequency, higher intensity program. More advanced lifters generally can't.
The rest of your post is pointless so i'll just address this:
> You can't blame any routine for getting an injury. It's your fault for fucking up the lift or doing more than your body can handle. Sure, you may have a higher chance to get a squat related injury if you squat more often, but you also have a higher chance of dropping the bar on your neck and dying while benching more often, or winning the lottery if you buy more lottery tickets. You just have to not be a retard
Does it in any way reduce the unproductive effects of getting an injury to note that you 'just have to not be a retard?' You're moralising here. The point is to make an effective programme, which the likelyhood of avoiding injury is part of. not to judge other people for their failings.
Note here you don't even believe this principle in full. If there was a routine where failure to use proper form meant death, you'd hardly suggest it should still be used. Likewise if there was a choice between a risk free routine and one with some risk, and both had the same results, you'd clearly prefer the former.
tldr people fuck up and selecting routines has to take this into account rather than moralise this away.