>>79821550 Waid is right, Batman is obsessed with not wanting people to die, even his enemies. Modern Batman of course, OG Batman don't give no shits. That mofo iced niggas like it was nobody's business.
>>79821550 >Slott made a big rant in Twitter how Superman and Batman NEVER kill and if any writer has them kill they don't understand the characters >tweets this Okay, I guess Slott doesn't understand anything. Thanks for outing yourself, Slott.
>>79821645 No I think he means that Batman should come pretty close to killing the Joker by doing things like breaking his back or stabbing him with batarangs repeatedly because the Joker keeps coming back from things that you'd assume he'd die from.
there comes a point where you're being a selfish prick about "muh morals" and blood is on your hands too
batman doesn't want to kill? tell that to the family he just ran over on his latest joke to get batman's attention
tell that to the kids who's dad died because he was the first responder to the call
> arkham is a revolving door > batman has infinite resources > access to JLA tech and 4th world shit via miracle & barda > doesn't build a super prison on the far side of the universe or even solar system to keep him away from society with full food and water for him to die of old age can have a GL or even superman check up on him with simple scan or supervision every so often
waid's "it's comics" argument is a copout. if you're going to write a character that's over 75 years old eventually you will have to explore all avenues of the character
joker is a flawed character because there is no fucking way he should still be alive. it doesn't even have to be bats, it could be one of his victims family members. modern joker is "HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT' incarnate
>But I’m not sure about the killing thing. I don’t want to sound like some fuddy-duddy Silver Age apologist but I’ve noticed a lot recently of people saying Batman should kill the Joker and, yeah, Superman should kill, he should make the tough moral decisions we all have to make every day. I don’t know about you, but the last moral decision I made didn’t have anything to do with killing people. And I don’t think many of us ever have to make the decision whether or not to kill. In fact, the more you think about it, unless you’re in one of the Armed Forces, killing is illegal and immoral. Why would we want our superheroes to do that? >There is a certain demand for it, but I just keep wondering why people insist that this is the sort of thing we'd all do if we were in Superman's place and had to make the tough decision and we'd kill Zod. Would we? Very few of us have ever killed anything. What is this weird bloodlust in watching our superheroes kill the villains? http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2013/07/28/grant-morrison-sunday-conversation-batman-wonder-woman/2586739/
>>79821730 >What is this weird bloodlust in watching our superheroes kill the villains? I mean, you'd probably argue that said heroes have a bloodlust since they keep letting their villains kill everyone else, but at the end of they day it's still just whittled down to "we can't be fucked coming up with villains continuously"
I'd actually like to see a sidestory explored where some soldier comes back from a deployment to find his family died due to some supervillain shenanigans, and goes to Arkham and slaughters all the big names there, and the resulting fallout and court case from that with the superheroes take on it.
Punisher had one storyline where he went apeshit on the supers, but for this I'd just like to see what the writers would come up with for a normal guy losing his shit at the revolving door for villains and killing the lot, and how the superheroes would react to someone lashing out in justifiable anger like that. Probably would be an edgy wank fest, but I think it could be done well.
>>79821862 Because Batman is the main character of his comic and has supposedly dedicated his whole life to protecting the people of Gotham. Of course, the fact that no one else has killed him shows its a plot/genre problem rather than a character problem and >Muh Batman psyche doesn't cover it.
The problem is that the Joker became a serial killer over time. It was fine when all the Joker did, most of the time, was just robbing a bank or doing a prank. Why would Batman be forced kill him? That's silly.
But over time writers tries to make the Joker more hardcore than before and now not only has he become a serial killer with a huge body-count, he now actually goes to harm Batman's children and taunt Batman by killing people in front of him in an attempt to push Batman over the edge.
That's why Batman just seems complacent with the whole deal, because a popular trend with the Joker is showing that he does what he does specifically because of Batman. He's killing because of Batman. So Batman has a hand in the harm the Joker does.
Batman knows he got a deranged serial killer obsessed with him that harms people to get his attention and he allows the continued existence of such serial killer even when he has the power to stop him.
So yeah, Batman's responsible for what the Joker does, because whatever the Joker does, he does it for Batman.
>>79821550 >>79821730 This is why Morrison and Waid are true geniuses and comic book scholars of this century. While Slott knows nothing and is just a overrated hack who got lucky and holding onto ASM because he knows he's nothing without it.
>>79821794 THEY aren't letting the villains get out,its the government's job to keep them locked up. Despite what people say about heroes their is a pretty big gap between stopping someone from committing a crime and being a full on punisher.
Morrison's wrong, because >>79821971. He shouldn't have written the Joker's as a monster obsessed with Batman. He's one of the many writers that contributed to this fucked up scenario that makes Batman look bad.
The Joker gets out because of Batman, because he's obsessed about Batman. The Joker kills people to get Batman's attention. Batman apprehends the Joker knowing he'll be send to Arkham, where security is lax. The cycle repeats.
>>79822044 >>79822073 >Waaaaaahhh! He made fun of our bigoted movement Goobers get out of here! >>79822068 Killing is NEVER justifiable. Killing is NEVER right. There is ALWAYS another way (even SUPERMAN says so). Killing the badguys makes you just as bad as them. ALL life is precious, even the bad guys. It doesn't matter if it's Joker, Darkseid, or Hitler, ALL life is precious. REAL Superheroes NEVER kill (even Stan Lee said so). Mic Drop
>>79821730 in a realistic world superman would ideally try every possible avenue and then if there was no other way kill the threat. in comics this obviously isn't a problem because the writer can do whatever they like as it's a fictional universe and the rules are not set on what can happen. man of steel was meant to be set in the "real world", where superman would in fact have to kill zod. this isn't fucking difficult and I don't get why it has to be brought up time and time again.
>comic superman shouldn't kill unless it somehow benefits the story (injustice, that time he killed dr light accidentally in trinity war, any situation where ma/pa kent are under attack and the only option left is killing whatever's attacking them)
>movie superman should kill IF IT'S THE ONLY OPTION LEFT because we don't live in an ideal world
>>79821812 Wasn't that the set up for kingdom come? Magog killed the Joker cause he was fed up with him always surviving and coming back, Then the fallout from that with all the papers and public claiming it was a good thing is what caused superman to quit
Superman exiled himself not giving a fuck to whatever happened. Batman took control of Gotham with robots Wonder Woman became a fucking fascist advocating for the deaths of prisoners and got progressively more radical. Then in a new collection of the story Waid added a few new pages that showed her pregnant with Superman's baby, because that would redeem her, right?
Nah. DC has been forcing Superman and Wonder Woman before that. This shit started in the 80's with Wonder Woman flirting with Superman in her own ongoing and then became popular with the various Elseworlds.
It's popular because it's as easy as breeding horses. Superman is strong, Wonder Woman is strong, Superman have the colors of the flag, Wonder Woman have the colors of the flag, Superman is important, Wonder Woman is important. They should fug.
>>79821675 And you know what anon? You can't relate comics to real life, because you know why?
That would fucking happen if this was reality, the point of comics is the bad guy keeps coming back if you just go off and end every fucking comic series with batman killing the antagonist what is the point, there is no continuing story and nothing to expand on.
Either way stop with this bullshit of trying to relate comics to real life and this "hur dur batman needs to kill" shit.
>>79823061 It's the ideal of being a warrior and fighting for a greater cause that you believe in so it is okay to kill those who stand in the way of your cause or wish you kill you because of your position.
You are in a different class when you are a warrior. And there could be an entire discussion about honor and all that shit about being a warrior as well, but you know. You can only kill what you are told to kill anyways as a warrior.
Superman won't kill mongul, just banish him to the Phantom Zone. Brainiac is a machiene half the time. But Darkseid? Nah fuck that nigga. H e comes to earth and Supes is right to try and kill him every time
He's an evil God no amount of therapy is going to fix that
Despite all of the justification for Bats or someone else not offing him, it all rings hollow. The character has been used so much, and come back from situations that should be inescapable so much, that him merely appearing automatically breaks suspension of disbelief in a lot of the readers. I honestly think so many people are in favor of "Just kill him already!" because they're FUCKING SICK OF SEEING THAT BORING ASS CLOWN MOTHERFUCKER.
And honestly? I can't blame them. Every time the Joker shows up, I start thinking about DC editorial decisions and how the writers are locked into using certain legacy characters, not the story I'm reading.
>>79823237 I mean you ask why a solider is able to kill and it is morally right that is basically it. There is no other explanation that is how it always has been bud.
People used for war are exempt from being seen a murderers, they are tools of war for whatever fucking reason and that has never changed why would you get charged with murder while serving in the military where everyone is trying to kill each other?
>>79822398 Superman exiled himself because he saw people no longer cared for the kind of Justice he stood for. Also, the Joker killed Lois and the rest of his friends, so was most likely acting out of grief an anger. Superman, in that story, was willing to go see the Joker on trial, so he put aside his own feelings for the sake of Justice. When Magog got out unscathed and with no repercussions, it showed a glimpse of what was to come and Superman just didn't wanna deal with that shit. The whole point of Superman's arc is that he got too attached to being Super and forgot to be a man. He struggles to see whether he does the right thing as an ideal rather than person, especially in a more darker and gray world than he's used to. Batman taking over Gotham with robots is badass. Wonder Woman only decides to kill when there's no other way (literally during the prison break in Kansas) and only kills one guy. She also immediately regrets it and Batman snaps her out of it. She was in no way this ridiculous fascist feminazi you claim she was through out the whole book. Also, the ending with Superman and Wonder Woman having a kid was cute. Fuck off with that shit. Did you even read Kingdom Come?
>Don't like Waid anymore after his Daredevil dragged on forever, shitty SHIELD comic, Avengers and his slavery shit. >Used to wank off to him and would defend him What happened, bros? Did Marvel really kill him?
>>79821550 >Nolan movies constantly makes a case against the use of guns and killing villains >The city is saved by a woman shooting down Bane with a gun and Batman indirectly making some torpedos land on Talia >Killing AND guns literally saved Gotham city
Then Blake becomes batman with the no killing no guns shit despise the fact that using guns to kill saved the city
>>79821636 >Yet the same fucking pussy who makes a stink about a woman being cheesecake in a fictional picture book What woman are you talking about? Or are you just assuming because he's a Marvel writer that clearly he would.
>>79821675 I don't think Batman is responsible for the people Joker's killed. He could have prevented a lot of them, sure, but he didn't pull the trigger, so he doesn't have to bear any moral weight for the deaths if he doesn't feel he should. If he WERE to feel burdened by them, then I would agree that he needs to pull his panties up and kill Joker instead of being a whiny hypocrite, but that's another issue.
At the same time, I don't think anyone who actually would choose to kill the Joker is automatically a monster. Joker's done enough to warrant the death penalty and won't ever change. Insanity defense wouldn't work for him because he acts with mens rea, so a reasonable jury would sentence him to death anyway if they ever bothered to try him.
>>79821675 Slott's right if he's talking about his feelings on Batman killing the joker morally, and not about whether he's talking about if it's consistent with his character. If he IS talking about his character, then Slott's a fool and a hypocrite - killing is the kind of thing you have to reserve for end stories, like The Killing Joke, and could never happen in a normal month-to-month serial because it's too powerful of a shift in Bruce's character.
But morally... We're at the point where Bats is sacrificing people for his own morality and is himself becoming a villain, but that's what happens when DC has pushed for years the idea of Gotham being a first-rate hell hole.
The Joker should die, but Batman shouldn't do it. Fuck, get Jason Todd to do it, and don't have ten issues where Bruce gets butthurt about it.
>>79825859 >What happened, bros? Did Marvel really kill him?
He loves taking things back to square one or the most iconic situation with his stories (Thawne, Bullseye, Kingpin, aliens from Avengers movie, etc). Marvel has become so commercialized that his style of riffing on the classics doesn't mesh with that corporate synergy™.
>>79821775 Actually its more, why don't you? Why dont you go out and kill the first serial killer you can find? Why dont you just go around killing everyone that you think deserves to die? People always put the wrong emphasis on why doesn't batman kill the joker. Its why dosent the government kill him. Its not batman job to kill him. But we all know the real reason. People buy comics just as much for the villains as they do for the heroes.
>>79834220 The whole point is that they're heroes. They have the power we don't and instead of choosing an effective disposal method they let the bad guys live.
It's like if there was a known bad guy fucking up and killing the populace, manipulating things from behind the scenes. Ruining a lot of lives from on high on in the shadows. We as people have to start a revolution or be really fucking crafty to remove these poeple.
But a hero doesn't have to, no red tape binds them, they can doa lot of good by cutting out the tumor directly.
Quite simply, those who have the power do, and those who don't so not. So if they're really good guys then thier real objective shouldn't be to stash away some psycho in a prison that the bad guys can break out of. They should either be trying to rehabilitate them, or kill them.
I think it's best when batman doesn't kill these folks out of a sense of duty because he created these monsters, but I don't see him trying to help them much unless they have tits.
>>79821638 I love Waid, but he can be a bit of a shit on Twitter, flying off the handle at every breaking news story without bothering to get the whole picture, then getting defensive when everyone clues him in.
>>79839015 Most people who don't like it tend to argue that the script shouldn't have put him into the situation of having no other option though, is Slott really dumb enough to argue within the context of the scene?
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