>>79783952 Well the thing where we first saw her was Barry going through the time force so everything that happened in that scene is the future of earth 1. The Supergirl cameo and those things were what's happening in the present of other earths
>>79788263 I thought he pulled off both. He certainly had a good grasp of his powers and seemed like a genuine threat until Zoom well, zoomed the room. He was certainly entertaining. It would have been nice to see more of him.
>>79788633 What the hell did he do? She's the one who pointed a gun at them and she doesn't know that he's not the real Barry.
What's really fucked up is that the real Barry is going to wake up to a dead Joe because of a retarded plan to risk people's lives for information. You know what's a better way of finding Zoom? Capturing one of the meta humans. God DAMN, everyone was stupid in this episode.
>>79789467 It shouldn't, he can vibrate through it. Depends of the writers shit the bed or not.
In fact, if zoom doesn't realize phasing is a speed power, it could give a reason for Barry to beat him in a race. When Wally is chasing impulse in #92 or so, Impulse keeps a nose ahead for a long time because he can seemlessly phase through objects, Wally has to run around them.
>>79787582 If Earth "2" isn't revealed as Earth 3 I'll be disappointed. I mean you have evil versions of good guys (Dr. Light, Killer Frost, Deathstorm, Reverb) and good versions of bad guys (Mayor Snart, Tokamakm "Deadshot"), hell even E2 Joe was a dick before dying and E2 Wells is a dick. Not to mention how Jay's E1 counterpart is fucking Hunter Zoloman.
>>79789810 Anon how the fuck would they reveal that? They've said the number scheme is perspective. What? You expect them to find a third earth but then oh wow Earth 2 is actually the third numbered earth we just happen to have found it second?
>>79789912 Real Earth-2 Jay comes and puts shit in place, evil version of Oliver comes over and dicks over the team that makes Barry doubt trusting Earth-2, a good Eobard Thawne, hints/full blown reveals of shit like Owlman, there's lots of plot devices to use.
>>79789810 Anon, we already know it's Earth-3. The tv show follows Barry from Earth-2, because Earth-1 is the one where the Flash has a bright red suit presumably didn't lose his mother, and the accident happened 5 years later in 2019-2020.
>>79790027 I liked the lightning catch and throw. That was sweet. But otherwise, to me, not much else has been all that entertaining. Not saying he can't be if they handle the reveal and everything else right. Anyway, opinions.
>>79790049 And where does the split between Earth-1 and Earth-2 happen? The War of the Americas, apparently, but when did that happen? It's just as much of an alternate timeline as Eobard popping up in episode 11 to a world he doesn't exist in is.
>>79790166 >>79790169 >That's not how the multiverse works in the show >Nowhere does the show You're going to have to back that up, because I just rewatched the second episode and they set up the War of the Americas as the dividing line and say nothing else on it.
>>79790216 Dude it's just little nod to how whacky E2 is, like how Atlantis is just a casual thing people visit
I mean if you want proof just look at Supergirl, the show takes place in the same timeframe but shares no similarities to the Arrowverse and the differences can't be explained by a divergent timeline point.
>>79790264 >and the differences can't be explained by a divergent timeline point. That's actually just conjecture. Just about every show set in "reality" will grab a specific time period and start going "and now we throw in a pod with an alien in it".
>>79790272 It's a shame the comics aren't canon to the show, or else you might have a point.
>>79790309 In many other adaptations you'd have a point, but considering how closely Flash sticks to the source material for the most part it's safe to assume it's following the same rules that have been a staple for decades in multiple mediums. Why would Flash be an outlier when so many other adaptions have followed this method?
>>79790337 The fact that Atlantis (who, basing off Plato's birth and the fact that no one remembered it during his time) exists, while it should've sunk anywhere before 700 b.c., I'd say there's not even a point in claiming it's a alternate timeline, since there's a divergence before recorded history
>>79790366 >but considering how closely Flash sticks to the source material for the most part it's safe to assume it's following the same rules that have been a staple for decades in multiple mediums. You know that even following the DC definition of the multiverse, I'm still right, right? Every time they explain the worlds, they go "and this is one where Superman was even stronger, and this one had a huge disaster go off, etc."
>>79790406 Then it diverged earlier. You just said it yourself. When does a divergent timeline become a separate world, anon? If Barry ran back in time and made sure that everyone remembered Atlantis and possibly saved it, causing the events that make Jay's timeline, did he go back in time or did he travel to Earth-2?
>>79790468 >The point of the multiverse is that things are similar but different. If it wasn't about "divergin histories" or "alternate timelines", things would be the same, and no multiverse would exist. Here, have an audio version straight from DC that specifically says you're wrong. https://youtu.be/_o9IMJAcbjs?t=1m2s
>>79790516 You think it can't? And even then, that was never the point. Every time Flash time travels, he makes another Earth, and leaves an Earth without a Flash. Under the same logic, an event happened differently that made the show's Earth-1 and Earth-2, but we know there is at least one timeline before it that could be called either Earth-0 or the real Earth-1 that Thawne spoke of before he killed the real Wells. And this isn't counting the worlds abandoned when Barry couldn't stop Weather Wizard or Vandal Savage. Especially considering Wellsbardwhatever's explanation of Cisco's powers being able to see through worlds, and how Cisco could still see an alternate timeline, it means those worlds are still active.
>>79783952 Maybe it was just because she only appeared for like 10 minutes, but I thought Caitlyn's actress played her evil counterpart better than her actual normal self. I dunno maybe she has a knack for being bad or maybe I was just blinded by the sexy coldness.
>>79790544 Not him, but it was an explanation for the audience under the assumption that they might be dumb. Like the time Cisco had to talk about different movies to Joe so they didn't lose him in the timetravel conversation. Unless stated otherwise, what Stein says is canon, because it's the explanation given directly to the audience as to how shit works.
I think it's more they don't give her good material. Caitlin mostly has filler-lines and the better scenes were all cut from season 1.
Plus I think it was The View where she talked about how Caitlin is really smart and sometimes she gets overwhelmed by all the science jargon and medical terms because she's worried about pronouncing them wrong and all that stuff.
Killer Frost is just a chill badguy that gets to keep things simple. They're giving her better lines and she can just relax and play it cool for once.
>>79790657 No, I'd agree with you if it was presented as if he was actually speaking from some kind of authority but if it was just a flippant guess in the middle of a rant I don't take that as canon. And I'm pretty sure that's what it was since I was listening for the explanation of how they'd explain shit to the normies.
>>79790714 That's exactly what Wells said, anon. We know he's from a separate world where he didn't know Barry's name and that Barry became the Flash when he was 30. He came back from the future by accident, went back to his time, later learned Barry's name, went back again, and caused a timeline split.
>>79790723 He's presented as the show's "expert" on these things, because it's a CW show for black people and he has PhDs therefore he's smart. Just roll with it.
Here it is for reference. It's generally speaking how multiverse theory works. Our choices split the timeline into different paths and worlds. To put it simply anyway. I believe there's another scene about this when they explain Cisco's powers but I don't remember for sure.
A world like Earth-2 would have converged far before the actual series from whatever earth Earth Prime is.
It's not "Oh there are all these Earths from the start." It's all these earth's being created and running side-by-side as they're created.
For example there would be an Earth where Barry stayed in Starling City and never got his powers, and there would be another where he never went in the first place. These diverging timelines all create infinite Earths with infinite possibilities.
>>79790486 This here is the exact same principle. There's an Earth all others was split from.
I wouldn't call them better from an acting standpoint but certainly better in that the flat character should have kept her stuff.
I don't have a link though since I watched them on the bluray but there's one between her and Barry towards the end of the season, and I think another where she somewhat questions the morality of keeping the meta's in the pipe. It's all just little things really but they'd have helped quite a bit.
>>79790792 >He's presented as the show's "expert" on these things, because it's a CW show for black people and he has PhDs therefore he's smart. Just roll with it.
Ok but the video linked here >>79790800 is the same scene we're talking about and not once does he mention split timelines at all and I don't remember it being stated in the same part after that clip either.
If someone has a part that goes on longer post it. I truly don't remember it ever being stated as if it was fact.
>>79790792 So far the only way to travel between universes has been the breaches, even Zoom, the fastest speedster we've seen has to use them. Thawne just used speed to go back in time and Tachyons to return, that makes no sense if going fast sent him back in time on Earth-0 in one instance and sent him to Earth-1 in another.
>>79790800 >It's all these earth's being created and running side-by-side as they're created. And that's exactly what I've been saying. Time travel makes more worlds, but doesn't stop others from existing unless there's a singularity made from a time paradox. >that second link Oh, you're gonna be kicking yourself for this one. Pic related.
>>79790847 See pick related. He already agrees with me.
>>79790850 >So far the only way to travel between universes has been the breaches *The only ways to travel directly between set points of different Earths That Thawne is from a different timeline entirely. A whole different world that can't be a possible future because Eddie died. Even Thawne was confused when he popped up in our world.
>>79790800 >>79790882 See, both of you guys are confusing me because the video says nothing about split timelines at all. All Stein says is that the worlds are created and that they run at the same time (ie its 2016 everywhere). He never even suggests split timelines nor choices causing it.
Unless we're just interpreting the "endless alternatives" line dramatically different. That to me is just him saying that it's infinite rather than suggesting anything about choices.
>>79790967 Before that, Jay mentions a significant historical event that happened in his timeline that didn't happen in ours. The question of the day is "When does something stop being an alternate timeline and start being a separate world entirely, or are all timelines separate worlds?"
>>79790995 >The question of the day is "When does something stop being an alternate timeline and start being a separate world entirely, or are all timelines separate worlds?"
My issue is that for the purposes of discussing what is canon to the show's continuity it hasn't been fully explained yet so I don't understand people jumping to alternate timelines as the explanation as if there's proof since I truly don't remember it. I'll admit though that my "they're definitely not the same" belief is also probably wrong to state as fact too though.
>>79790882 Dude they explain in that very episode that due to timeline fuckery/being shielded in speedforce that younger Eobard, while still from this timeline, was protected from Eddie becoming an hero.
>>79791079 Everything I've stated has been backed up by the facts given in the show. I'm still waiting on people to disprove that they aren't alternate timelines when they are so close, and that even the people who whine about "b-but muh DC multiverse explanation" don't seem to realize that that very explanation agrees with me.
>>79791124 You're also forgetting that they still don't realize he's from a separate timeline, anon. Nobody ever told them what Eobard told Wells before he killed him; that STAR Labs had the malfunction in 20 years, not 15, etc.
>>79791151 The only problem I have at this point is that you're pretending as if your theories are confirmed canon like something inarguable such as Barry's dad being locked up in prison for a number of years. Your deductions aren't illogical by any means, but thinking everyone else should accept them as fact despite that not being confirmed at all is ridiculous. I don't know if you're >>79790094 or just someone who agrees with that interpretation, but a post like that is going to cause confusion since it was never stated at any point and the Stein explanation video proves it.
I don't know if you're wrong but you're certainly not right, at least not yet. There are other explanations they could use to smooth things over like Cisco's visions (though I doubt they'll bother trying to explain hypertime vs multiverse to a casual audience).
>>79791358 >The only problem I have at this point is that you're pretending as if your theories are confirmed canon like something inarguable such as Barry's dad being locked up in prison for a number of years. Wow, you're not even reading the posts you respond to. I just said in my last post that I'm waiting for someone to disprove my theory, and nobody has. Nothing more.
>>79791385 Not that anon, but your theory is, at best, a hypothesis and not even that. It's based on the speculation of Dr. Stein. that's it. There's no point in disproving squat, because there simply aren't enough facts on the table yet.
>>79791396 >It's based on the speculation of Dr. Stein. that's it. As discussed earlier in the thread, Stein's speculation exists to explain the laws of the universe (read as: his speculation isn't speculation at all). >a hypothesis and not even that. Ahah.
>>79791432 >This was a discussion of what is canon or not No, it was about this. >>79790031>>79790049 The whole discussion is about the theory, anon. >At no point does any character in S2 state that the multiverse was caused by split timelines. And at no point do the main characters ever acknowledge stuff they didn't see that the audience did. I guess what Thawne said and did is non-canon, etc.
>>79791472 And yet when the show first introduced timetravel theories, they immediately went to him to have it explained to the audience. The show introduced it as theorems but presented them as facts and they have not been challenged since.
>>79791503 They can be challenged at any time the plot demands it. These are 20th and 21st century scientists. They do not have a solid grasp on time travel or alternate realities to the point they can make laws.
>>79791467 >And at no point do the main characters ever acknowledge stuff they didn't see that the audience did. I guess what Thawne said and did is non-canon, etc. When you're reaching THAT hard to try and support your argument, it's time to step back and take a good hard rethink of your position.
>>79791525 Barry dicking around never opened up a breach, actually, just Eddie killing himself. Although it could be inferred that future Flash has done that or worse since he was telling current Flash not to save his mama.
>>79789552 >In fact, if zoom doesn't realize phasing is a speed power He already gave Reverb a handshake, he's not retarded. However, it might be a special room or something, or Zoom took enough speed already?
>>79791558 The way they were talking before it happened, it kind of seemed like the wormhole might have begun anyway due to the machine losing its shit. I think I need to watch the finale again to be sure though.
>>79791584 I kind of liked her, but not as much as /co/. She was like S1 Laurel-tier to me.
>>79789575 They were very uncomfortable with eachother and Joe seemed to have some anger towards him. But I dont think they "hated" eachother. His deathbed scene seemed to acknowledge room for peace in their relationship.
And why Barrys Dad is out of prison but hasn't shown up all season. They want viewers to forget about him until the moment zoom pulls of his mask. It won't be Barrys dad and the reveal will be at the end of the episode building up massive hype.
>>79790094 This isn't how multiple universes work, at least not necessarily. But the original universe had an alternate timeline, that was either erased, readjusted or...whatever. I dunno how that stuff works.
This is a different universe. It's not like in some multiverse concepts where major and minor choices create alternate realities. This is just, there are multiple universes in which some are parallel to eachother and have consistencies and some are just different entirely (Supergirl obviously does not have their own Flash...yet for example).
One thing I find interesting too is that not only do the characters obviously have their doppelgangers on earth 2 but certain events or instances seem to happen regardless in different ways; One of the Wests becomes a cop, Caitlin and Ronnie are together, Ronnie is still Firestorm, Ronnie, Caitlin and Cisco still come together, they still work with a Speedster, Someone Iris and Barry's families are connected, Barry is still a fanboy to Wells.
That's all I thought of, but Im sure they'll reveal more next week.
>>79791914 I took that to be less about him not doing a long distance relationship and more him not wanting to be in a relationship with someone who would decide to leave without discussing it first. The really retarded part was her revealing that it was just mindgames and she would have stayed if he begged her. Fuck that shit.
>>79792041 Realistically I guess most of the villains Barry's faced wouldn't be a huge threat to him. The Top, if you're talking about him as of the Johns era, has a shit ton of abilities at his disposal. Genius-level intelligence, telekinesis, super speed spinning, vertigo-inducement, weaponized tops (he didn't use them in the Johns era, but could have if he'd chosen to), doesn't stay dead for long because he can possess bodies, and basically low-level shapeshifting. He's ridiculously powerful. The show probably won't do all that with him, but he's got a lot of strengths to use.
>>79792655 Yeah, he's not hugely well known because he isn't really all that popular. He happens to be my favourite Rogue though, so that's why I'm really hoping he appears sooner rather than later on the show.
>>79792707 He's already appeared on Arrow, and he wasn't nearly as horrifying as in the comics. He did sew up his mouth, however. I wouldn't really mind him appearing on Flash even though I don't like his comics incarnation either.
>>79791736 I was under the impression that Joe seeing "Barry" actively protecting Iris and not being the selfish lump he'd alluded to Earth-2 Barry being, was what allowed him to respect Barry and trust him with Iris during the deathbed scene.
>>79781182 I would have liked a nice and short little scene where Wells gave crisco and barry a set of meta-alert bracelets that were tampered so that they could detect metas, but also mask their presence. WOULDN'T THAT HAVE BEEN A GOOD IDEA? But no, instead we get >oh gee, my meta detector just went off and thinks you're it... meh FINE, IRIS IS AN IDIOT IN ALL REALITIES. I CAN GET BEHIND THAT. WHY DIDN'T HE SET OFF EVERYONE IN THE STATION EVERY TIME HE VISITED? WHY NOT DOWN THE STREET? WHY NOT EVERYONE IN THE JITTERBUGS, SINCE WE ESTABLISHED THEY ALL HAD THEM? I'd also like to know why cisco didn't set them off, but I'm willing to give them a pass that the out of phase thing that was messing with his power also kept him hidden from the detectors. It's not a good pass. Just a D bump up to a pity pass, because the teacher doesn't want to see you repeat her class again.
>>79793215 There are meds that fix poor writing? But seriously man, I don't normally nitpick this hard, but the writers went out of their way to use those meta detectors. They could have just not used them, but instead they insisted on waving them all around, despite ignoring absolutely everything that they imply. They grab you by the nose and rub it right into their plot hole.
CW has been making Dramas for years. I don't know if it's the Geoff Johns influence (Though a lot of the times Executive Producer does not mean anything) But they been able to balance between the show being a live action comic book, and a drama pretty well most of the time.
>>79783952 This. It would give her something to do, and would be a good balance for the team.
Have Barry act weird around her until he tells her about Earth 2, then have her do experiments to try and prevent herself from getting powers and cause it. If you treat her like the original comics' KF the process could be reversible- Crystal Frost became normal again after she drained enough heat. You could have her trying to manage her powers and prevent from hulking out and becoming a psychotic murderer.
Caitlin is best girl and I've been waiting for her to become Frost since the damn show started. Don't cuck me out of my waifu, CW.
It's a good show but Zoom fucking sucks. Reverse Flash was good because the viewer knew his secret from Episode 1, and the whole show was about the tension of them dealing with that secret. You knew he was the villain but he was also one of the team, so you couldn't help but grow to like him. But with Zoom the viewers never see him unless he's twirling his moustache so he comes across as a plot device instead of a character.
And Patty was shameless waifu bait and I'm glad she's gone. I was talking to a friend of mine about how Patty has a mixed reception on line and he got legitimately angry and started blaming Gamer Gate not being able to get girls for people not liking her.
>>79794739 Zoom is fine. He's an experiment for showrunners in general and I'm glad they're treading into territory most others will avoid by having a villain who will, legitly, just fucking kill you. I think the under-utilisation is a result of that more than anything else. Everytime Zoom shows up, shit goes down. That is a good thing.
Now, as for Patty, I wholeheartedly agree. She's the kind of obsessively creepy chick I personally wouldn't touch. I'm curious though: What does your friend think of Iris? Y'know, a girl with her own opinions who doesn't stalk Barry or worship the ground he walks on while making unreasonable, semi-psychotic demands...
>>79797909 He doesn't like Iris because she wanted Barry to tell her about being the Flash. Kinda ironic considering that is what Patty did.
Personally I think Iris has been not shit this season, but after her big episode with Weather Wizard Patty basically became Season 1 Iris with a Felicity filter. She was supposed to be the "perfect quirky nerd gurl" and I guess it worked on some people.
>>79799416 >She was supposed to be the "perfect quirky nerd gurl" and I guess it worked on some people.
Which is funny because that's not how they wrote her. They wrote her as damaged goods, which is the unspoken, main reason Barry did not continue things with her. He's much too "nice" to say it, but Patty is a crooked cop and a murderer in the making, who cried wolf just to test the theory that he's the Flash. There's a dozen reasons not to continue things with her and from what it looked like, not telling her he's the Flash and her being in danger is nothing more than an excuse he fronted, because she's ringing a dozen or so alarm bells.
>He doesn't like Iris
Yeah, I figured. Iris and Linda both have definite personalities and their own goals independant of the main lead. This is something that seriously rubs people who go for insecure, needy psychos like Patty the wrong way. It's the same with Olicity fans and Oliver. They had to completely change his character to appeal to those shippers, because someone who isn't a beaten houseman doesn't appeal to that kind of "fan".
>>79799536 That would be true in the real world, but within the show's logic Patty did nothing wrong.
Linda was pretty shit in Season 1, but Iris was fucking insufferable in S1. They had so much "stronk womyn" crap going on and it took center stage the whole season. It wasn't until Eddie died and Iris got Wally to pile her drama on that she got good. Now instead of being a goddamn emotional albatross she's a supportive friend.
To clarify, Patty was ABSOLUTELY a huge bitch, especially when she put Barry on the spot and emotionally blackmailed him to tell her he was the Flash, and called in that fake threat, but the show very much treated what she did as something that was justified since Barry was "distant." He had to do it to save her, but the show presents it as him doing something wrong for her benefit.
It's something that's very common with soap operas and soap opera writers, which a lot of CW people are: since they're targeted to women, a lot of the shows' logic and morals are focused on what are important to women. Emotions and romantic connections always take precedence over plans and conflicts.
>>79799738 >Linda was pretty shit in Season 1, but Iris was fucking insufferable in S1. They had so much "stronk womyn" crap going on and it took center stage the whole season. It wasn't until Eddie died and Iris got Wally to pile her drama on that she got good. Now instead of being a goddamn emotional albatross she's a supportive friend. Agreed. I'm surprised at how much I'm actually enjoying Iris in this season, despite her being pretty much the same character as before. She works WAY better as Barry's friend than as a love interest. And the only time she was outright being a bitch the dragracing incident, she was actually RIGHT.
>>79799890 Maybe I'm just used to romance dramas geared toward older women, but a lot of the stuff I find enjoyable in that regard entails stable personalities on both ends of the relationship. This Twilight-tier crap where someone we'd consider crazy and creepy IRL is hyped up to be a dindunuffin irks the hell out of me.
I didn't mind Iris in season 1. She was being a dumb kid and a lot of people her age actually think emotional blackmail is a viable strategy. The reason I like her now is because she developed past that and as of the crossover, I have to say she's played by an excellent actress with a range far greater than love interest.
At this point, I could see Barry/Iris as something natural even. In season 1, I couldn't. It was a crush on his part and kinda cringy. But now, with the underlaying feelings that are there and Wally filling in the "brother" role, they could naturally slip into it without it seeming like some fucked up forced incest thing. The friend vibe we get from them is rooted in some very deep feelings and I see it more as a platonic relationship that could become more in due time.
>since they're targeted to women, a lot of the shows' logic and morals are focused on what are important to women. Emotions and romantic connections always take precedence over plans and conflicts.
The irony is, a lot of the women I know are turned off by this. The sentiment I get frequently is very much "there's a time and a place, and the middle of a fucking crisis isn't it". Then again, my frame of reference is women in my age group from 30-40, so, younger girls may tick differently.
>>79799993 I think Iris could work as a love interest if they didn't feel the need to pile on drama (of course we know they can't). Like the scenes with her and Barry hanging out and being kind of flirty were fine. It's just everything else that was bad.
>>79800978 The problem is that will they/won't they drama is a big thing they can use for telling stories easily. A lot of writers don't like putting characters in stable relationships because it ties them down.
Cisco in the comics can pick out people who come from a different dimension and sense "breaches" into Earth-0, That's probably what Reverb was doing, along with the idea that all the Ciscos in the multiverse are somehow connected.
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