They where now it looks like she's up her trolling bait to "loving Cass" now. There is no reasoning with the batgirl_cc only suffering. The only cure is to ignore or report the trolling. For you will succumb to eventual rage by the troll.
>>79744068 >It's beautiful >A bunch of teenage girls trying to murder adults like out of some 13 year old's idea of a horror movie is beautiful Jesus why is this version of David such a slobbering retard
I love the Bat Family and I don't mind it at all this or Robin War. I love the times when they quibble amongst each other. The only problem I have is that Jason and Tim have shit writers in their main books and the later so needs a better costume.
This was...mediocre, I guess? Cass is basically a background character still, it seems like the only reason she's in the book at all is to be a plot device and to prop up Harper Row. I suppose it's my fault for thinking this series was going to be a Cass story instead of a Dick and Harper story.
>>79745882 agreeing with this. DC breeds these kind of terrible character wars in the Batfamily especially. nobody can agree who would win in a fight between Dick and Jason, nobody can decide if Tim is the smartest or not, or who the best Batgirl is and so on and so on.
>>79745773 >Nostalgia Oh yeah. There are still Timfags who are mad about Damian. Poor Tim will never be THE ONE TRUE ROBIN DESTINED TO BE BATMAN ever again. >Entitlement They take up like a fourth of DC's output and have crossovers frequently. Of course they're entitled. >Extensive headcanons >Not giving a fuck about new characters or c listers Just look at how many Dickfags hate that Dick isn't with the batfamily in Grayson, and the writers dare to have a bunch of new characters and literally whos take up panel time. >The characters having tons of explanation as for how they fit in the family since they all have no powers and there are a gajillion of them The GLs are probably the only DC characters that are close to the same level with the batfamily on this. It was especially prevalent in the Dixon days. Cass was the fighter, Tim was the smart one, Batman was the important one, Barbara was the computer person, Dick was the happy one, and Helena was the outsider who was a violent killer. Anything that messes with that is bad, and we're seeing it now that there literally are a dozen characters who need the spotlight and a time to shine. This will cause >>79745882. DC trying to explain how cool a character is and if another character that wasn't cool in it shows them up, the fans of the character get mad.
Good issue. Seeley did it, he brought this series back. Hopefully, it'll at least be this good for the rest of the series, because this was a lot better than the suffering we've been through for so long.
>>79746049 >Not giving a fuck about new characters or c listers >Just look at how many Dickfags hate that Dick isn't with the batfamily in Grayson, and the writers dare to have a bunch of new characters and literally whos take up panel time. Also new characters to the batfamily too, not just new characters in general. A lot of Damian fans are terrified of Duke, Harper is hated just about everywhere for merely existing, etc.
>>79746329 Because he's well aware of how patient he has to be. He's been in comics for a long time.
He talked about the Grayson incident on a podcast, and he said how careful he had to be since some of those people are simply looking for ways to be the bigger person. And one of the easiest ways is to make a creator frustrated enough so they just snap at you.
>>79746424 the more followers, the easier it is for someone to take something out of context and blow it up. i imagine seeley probably just trains himself to not respond to any harassing tweet until hours later, when he can react diplomatically
>>79744513 >>79744523 >>79744567 I can't believe Seeley has to explain to someone that the so-called "best" fighter doesn't win every single time. Are they completely unaware of underdog teams winning in sports?
I really liked how this started but I stopped buying issues pretty quickly. Not entirely cause it got boring, but because they'd been putting out one book a week and bunches of them were mediocre. What was the point of putting out one a week. I wasn't gonna buy four books a month on a so/so storyline.
>>79746711 Weekly books get people invested in going into shops and buying something every week. Outside of 52, they've generally been mediocre (both Eternal series, Futures End) to awful (world's end, countdown to FC), due to having so many writers who are just filling in blanks of a script that needs to pad itself out with filler. That, and rushed art from no-name artists (though some like Ferreyra are talented and go on to better things).
>>79745773 I think it's just that these characters have more fans than most. Crazies are proportional to the total. All of them have had a turn in the spotlight so they each have their fans wanting them to return to their "glory days." Screw all the other characters playing in the same sandbox.
GL fags are just as terrible, but there's less of them so it's not as loud. Flash fags would be like this too, except there's only two factions and DC has more or less killed the Wally fans.
>>79746821 I try to make my trip like once a month, but any weekly book to a casual comic fan like me has got to be gold. I budget it in my head like "okay so if I buy four comics of this one series a month, then that's already more than my Netflix account costs. Maybe I'll wait for a larger trade..."
I got really uncomfortable with the weekly purchase. Just anecdotally, this release schedule had the opposite effect on me as a casual reader while a lot of the story felt like it was inching along after a promising start. I just got less interested and more spend thrift.
>>79747054 Easily and my reading has been the better for it. This issue I read in the story time was okay but it's too many actors needing a time to shine. As an insufferable Cass fag I was kinda hoping she'd be most of the story but that's even the first problem here. I don't know who would be the main driver of the story or why I might care about them. Dick sorta fits the bill but most of what he's been doing is staying sane while explaining the plot every book.
Ah, yes, the entire reason he exists and is popular in the first place is toxic for him. He's much better off as a James Bond rip-off, because god-forbid he's not the most important fucking thing in every story he's a part of.
It's worse than that for Dick. His only function is the plot and further it. It does nothing for his character so far and he hasn't done any sort of soul searching learning any of the details.
Harper has changed more from the beginning of this story than Dick. Harper "fan-favorite" Row. Fucking Cullen should be getting as much character dimension here as his sister given it's his parents too!
Dick really needs an issue to make a mess out of all this, but he's never been given one. Harper's been given the full attention with a brief spotlight cast on Cassandra (#13 was probably her best outing of the series and even then it ended with Harper and Cass hugging).
But I have hopes that #20 will change this given this is the cover. I want to see this flashback of Bruce finding Cassandra and seeing her linger with the guilt of taking a life. Because Bruce was all denial in the old DCU. Here he knows she took a life.
But who am I kidding? It'll probably end up somehow focusing on Harper. I've been buying this series and it's just there to entertaining. It's not perfect and honestly I'm not surprised at that.
Still, this series NEEDS an issue devoted to Dick. Just for him to register all the shit that has happened to him in this series and what Bruce hid.
>>79747743 Yeah it seems like Dick's purpose is for him to run from location to location and put out fires. He had what, an offscreen fight with Cain, and has just kind of been a convenient plot device to save character X from impeding doom
>>79747743 There are a lot of really silly inappropriate ways to make fun of that cover. It is kinda cool though. Maybe I'll pick up book 20 next week on my monthly trip. (I'll catch up on the other books illicitly)
>>79748258 But even as GRAYSON he still gets dragged into Batfamily events, the reason the books better than the last 20 years of Nightwing stories is that they actually have a good writer with a plan of where he wants the character to go.
>>79748533 It's been mentioned before though, if you have this many characters you really don't have time for nuance in a 22 page book dealing with a larger plot. So every character here so far has been boiled down to the most basic reading you can get from them. So if Cass isn't "best ever" then she really doesn't have much in this issue to do except be side character. And if she's your favorite from another series...
We'll that's all besides the point cause that person's a trolly troll
>>79747743 I imagine the audience they're trying to attract with Harper would be far more interested if they made the gay kid with a crush on Tim the new character who got all the attention. I'd be happy too because he's far less annoying.
>>79749062 The format doesn't help. The story could be made to fit in a cartoon, I bet. It feels like it's got a large enough cast to be a cartoon. But 22 pages per issue with a lot of junk going on the side, no character is developing at all
>>79751776 The scary David Cain whose only win is against Harper fucking Row, a ninety-pound girl who doesn't know how to fight.
The chode at >>79744513 is overstating his argument (as long as Adam Beechen exists, it's literally impossible for anyone else to be the worst Cass writer), but this series and this issue in particular is underselling her like crazy. Why the fuck am I supposed to be so impressed with her if Helena Bertinelli can subdue her with barely any effort, and Harper motherfucking Row is presented as a serious threat to her? That's not "one of the best in the world", that's a useless jobber who has no point anymore. It's useless to have Dick fellate her with words afterwards if you're _showing_ her to be a nobody. Seeley can eat a dick, and so can DC.
>>79752893 >>79752809 Batgirl CC does have a bit of a point though, Cass for appearances sake has lost almost every single one of her encounters with people pitching in last minute to stop the fight. Dick then says something that's supposed to reconfirm that she would win the fight. But last thing I remember Jason was about to stab her (non fatally probably) with his arm knives thing at the end of his fight and Helena here was talking some straight smack.
Cass doesn't really portray a lot of exceptional skill these books.
Exactly. It's supposed to be show, not tell, and Cass sure isn't showing shit here. The two parts in the story where I assumed she was meant to put on a show that amazes readers were the ballet fight and the robot base in the death pit of whatever, and in neither of those did she end up actually doing anything flashy. Like, for fuck's sake, MAKE HER DO SOMETHING COOL. That's the basic of the basics. That's what people expect.
"Oh being the best doesn't mean you're always going to win" is such a shitty excuse. If you're actually the best, or even the vicinity of it, you should have something to show for it 19 fucking issues into a 26 fucking issue comic.
>>79752805 He's had fewer years of the necessary strength and fine motor control for combat training than any of the other robins except maybe Tim and far less practical experience. He only wins against any of them due to plot magic. But this shouldn't be surprising for comics.
>>79744333 >OH MY GOD! HOW WILL OUR HEROINE SURVIVE AGAINST HER GREATEST FOE: A GENERIC PUNK GIRL WITH NO SPECIAL COMBAT SKILLS OF ANY KIND?! FIND OUT NEXT WEEK IN THE NEXT EXCITING EPISODE OF BATMAN AND ROBIN AND WHATEVER!
You focus way too much on the person and their presumed motivations and way too little on the argument at hand. Seeley is wrong here. You can't pretend a character is strong if the character is on a lifelong losing streak. That's such basic writing skills that even WWE understands it.
To be fair, Steph has no role because Tim doesn't have an ongoing. In this role she needs a mentor/partner. DC isn't going to just give her an ongoing because they know her selling numbers if she has a respective creative team.
Though Valentine did some miracles with her in Catwoman. They should just give the three gals (and Tim) to Valentine to write a team book. Because the shit would be cash.
>>79753853 The only thing I agree is that Seeley focused heavily on the school and around it. I can't recall the last time Head Mistress Madonna showed up in Grayson (did she in one? I think she did? Maybe).
Point is, Dick stopped the fight because A.) Helena was getting aggraviated and is not a slouch when it come's to fighting. and B.) Cassandra under the mind gas was getting to Helena. It was a no win situation developing. Dick needed Cassandra but also a level-headed Helena.
This issue felt honestly decompressed and I just wish it was a bit longer on the main cast. Like maybe a slight focus of Tim/Cass under the fear toxin and helping each other through this.
>>79747715 Eh. He should be the most important character in the stories he stars in. From Prodigal through to Tomasi's Nightwing run, Dick often felt like a supporting character or a sidekick in his own title.
Shit, even in Grayson, Dick's kinda playing that role. They're doing a better job balancing it, but you can still kinda see it.
But Cass saved Harper in #2, kicked her father's ass in #5 or 6 by cutting his hand off, but did succumb to his words hurting her resulting in Harper comforting her.
#3 Cass was going easy on Jason even as he wasn't starting too, and that's why Dick ended the fight before it got real ugly.
Cass owned a bunch of the ballerinas and orchestra that was after her and Harper, before the boss fight kicked in with one of Mother's best.
The only problem I had with that fight was the endless respawning of the minions (did Cass/Harper take out what thirty or more before it started to effect them?) they had until Dick showed up.
#13 and #14 she was owning some of the bots quite well. Her father on the other hand gave her trouble this time around.
Cass is probably one of the best things of this series actually. Now David Cain on the other hand. God, he has current WWE heel fatigue. The dude is supposed to be threatening, but he's only trashed Harper twice (three if you count his words last issue), yet is supposed to be this great assassin.
I mean sure he hasn't been one-shoted by Jason or shot in the ass like his prehistoric counterpart, but Storm Shadow Cain has more just come across as deranged. Not really threatening more just plain embarrassing.
Why does he need Cass if a chick who mainly works behind a desk these days can subdue her? "No slouch" notwithstanding.
Like, they could have done that same scene so easily in a way that doesn't make her look weak. Just have more people holding her down. Dogpile her, put in a guy on every limb as she thrashes around and that all of a sudden looks way more reasonable. Instead she loses a fight to a character who in previous universe was beneath her notice. Again.
>>79754676 I miss terrible father Cain. Like... he was a terrible father in every way but it was a really twisted character arc in the way they still loved each other. That was such a good "batman esque" twisted villain/hero intertwining. Here he feels like some mook who loses all the time.
Really the thing ruining this version of Cain is the fact that he's slavishly devoted to this Mother figure, to the point that he doesn't seem to have a single thought of his own. It's all MUAHAHA MOTHER THIS and MUAHAHAHA MOTHER THAT and shut the fuck up David, you used to be cool.
Whether or not any one character is getting a good showing in the spotlight, one thing everyone here seems to be agreeing on is that ALL the characters feel like they're getting too little development time. Even though not EVERY book or story has to provide life changing revelations that turn characters around forever but like the only two characters that are getting an attempt at a lasting impact are Harper and Cass. And Cass gets that just by virtue of being reintroduced.
There's a lot going on with little substance to anyone, and a big bad guy plot that feels more silly arch villain stuff than threatening.
Agreed. I almost was hoping that #14 would have him be all, "Fuck loyalty. Mother's gonna die for this."
Nope. He's still loyal.
I mean I get that he's Mother's hand. Her "great success". But #13 planted seeds of rebellion.
I get why he isn't like pic related, because the old DCU David Cain (before Beechen) may have been a horrible monster, but he was an actual person underneath it all. He did love Cassandra. It was the most unexpected side-effect of all for him. He was making a weapon, and in the end he loved her.
This version. I dunno. There seems to be no love. Yet.. the last issue showed very slight care in Cain's words.
It's kind of sad he really hasn't gotten the Cluemaster treatment here. Cluemaster was flawless in Eternal.
Cass even feels like she's becoming a different character even if she has been reintroduced. She's getting so much better treatment here than Stephanie did in Eternal, who got her subplot hijacked by Harper at the tail end portion.
Are we reading a different comic? Cass has had her subplot hijacked by Harper since issue three or so.
Only character B&RE does any favors to is Harper. Harper is everywhere, Harper is doing everything. Maybe Tim and Jason benefit a little just by being away from their own horrible ongoings. Everyone else gets some mixture of ignored or fucked.
I wouldn't say hijacked more of Harper taking on assets that Stephanie and Barbara had. Cass barely has had any interaction save a few panels here or there with Dick (heck I think Seeley is the only one who's had dialogue of Dick referencing or sticking up for her.
Other times he's just Mr. Exposition.
Cass/Harper are equals in this. Both are having their tales told in this and both are tied at the hip with the new origin of Cass along with Harper taking on those characteristics of Steph/Babs.
>>79753037 There was no real reason to believe that Jason was going to win that fight. He landed a hit on her, but she's escaped from grabs before. She was kicking him around the bar despite him having a gun trained on her. And all throughout, she's been getting into fights. She doesn't need to beat up every character to establish her image of being a fighter.
>>79755876 >I wouldn't say hijacked more of Harper taking on assets that Stephanie and Barbara had.
Problem number one is, both Steph and Babs were WAY better partner characters for Cassandra. Both of them served as mirrors to her. Harper serves as a coat rack.
Fuck, I almost wish they had just left Harper out of this shit entirely and made Cass kill Steph's mom instead, have her take Harper's place in this comic. That would be edgy and cynical and probably ruin everything, but at least it would have the right characters interacting.
>>79754735 It was good, but it ended before it really went anywhere. Sean Ryan's run being good was laughable. It went from god awful to slightly readable after Convergence, but somehow people defended it with "b-b-b-but it's better than before!" the same way people defended Will Pfeiffer's Teen Titans.
True. Because Harper has taken qualities from not only them but Tim as well. But DC is pushing Harper, and given the wasteland of characterization Tim has in Teen Titans, I've all but been effected by anything that can happen to him now.
It's pathetic in a way that again he's being "better" written here than his actual book. It's almost a relief that the burden of being in the Teen Titans is over. Maybe King or someone else can fix all the garbage TT did to him along with a new costume or direction.
Steph just needs Valentine. I'm still astonished that she's probably the only writer so far who's handled Steph nice. Okay even though I'll confess guiltily loved Seeley's version of Steph in this.
>>79744293 Wait, if the signal effects college age girls why is Jason unaffected? He's supposed to be around 18 or 19. And Dick isn't much older since he got de-aged in the reboot, only 21. What's the cut-off age?
>>79755969 >There was no real reason to believe that Jason was going to win that fight. He landed a hit on her, but she's escaped from grabs before
You can always come up with excuses. "Maybe mind-control makes her weaker! Maybe she would have won if the fight went on for five more minutes!" But the excuses pile up, and pile up, and each falls flatter than the previous one. At some point you need to stop making excuses and actually show this supposed combat monster fucking wreck somebody's ass into a million pieces.
>She doesn't need to beat up every character to establish her image of being a fighter.
Actually? She kind of needs to. Right here, when she's making her first ever appearance in the brand new universe, the writers need to establish the rules, show how things go when she's involved. Show the normal state of things. Not subvert expectations, but just show the normal state of things. And so far what they've shown is:
- She beats up Dick a bit (okay, off to a decent start, nothing special but not bad) - Loses like a bitch to Jason (WTF) - Loses to ballerinas, taking down about twice as many of them as Harper "weakest hero that's not Steph" Row did, which is beyond pathetic - Cuts off her dad's hand in a thing that's not a real fight - Breaks a few flying drones or such - Loses to Helena - Is apparently about to have a real honest to goodness fight with Harper Row instead of instantly choking her unconscious in like one panel
That does not look like a borderline superhuman master of all things martial to me. In fact, if this was a brand new character, called Blass Blain, I would peg her at about same level of combat effectiveness as Tim Drake, but without the benefits of Tim's sciencey brain. And that is not what I want from a Cassandra Cain story. What I want is to see her deflect bullets from a minigun with her Katana and backflip three storeys down onto a motorcycle and ride into the sunset, which she will soon beat up.
I actually suspected they would go for that, with how Jim Gordon was running around in a sleek black powersuit that had the same hollowed-out logo she used to have in her Batgirl days - I thought they would pop her in, briefly establish that she's a facebreaker even without it, and then find some excuse to put her into a similar outfit, amping her up from "almost superhuman" to "haha what the fuck did she just dropkick a tank". Throw all subtlety into the wind and turn her into Kamen Rider.
Right now it sure looks like that was just wishful thinking.
You do remember Cass also had to deal with a boss fight with those same ballerinas. A boss fight of someone who was exactly like Cass, but done Mother's way. There's a reason Mother was ticked off at the end of that part of the arc. Cass beat the boss, and then the mother-figure to her carted her off from the battle and from Mother.
> Loses to Helena.
She broke freaking Helena's nose and Dick along with Tim dog piled Cass before it got worse.
What you're asking for is total god-mod and while that can be fun at first it gets repetitive. There needs to be a road bump for her. She's had two in the ballerina boss and her father. She needs another, but I doubt we're getting Mother vs. Cass in the end.
>>79756685 I think he was actually a few months younger than her. And he was less than 2 years younger than Tim. Jason's 18th birthday occurred after after Cass's 18th and Tim's 16th. Writers have forgotten how young he's actually supposed be ever since he was resurrected.
I hope you realize that there is a crucial difference between Jason and Cass. Cass's magic ninja horseshit was the core of the character since the second she was invented. Jason, on the other hand, was invented as a normal Robin whose only special thing was that he was a bit edgy, and then decades later one writer waltzed in and went "okay he trained in magic land for a bit and now he's the magicest ninja ever everybody respect that okay".
>>79757089 >What you're asking for is total god-mode
Pretty much, yeah. That's exactly how they should start. Give her at least a year of nobody and nothing being even able to touch her. You want to make her struggle, do it 12+ months later when she's been properly established as holy-shit-what-the-fuck sickass big dick G.
>There needs to be a road bump for her.
There is no road here, just a fucking chasm that she fell into. Like I said, this is her first story in the new universe and she's already on a losing streak against seemingly everybody around. Who is this joker, this chump, this pathetic creature that tries and fails and tries again and fails again? Wasn't that Steph's job? It's certainly not Cass's.
But the thing is she hasn't jobbed in the way you think. Quite the contray. She made Helena bleed and bad. Look at this face. >>79744218
If you're calling that a win by Helena, it's not. She was losing and was getting pissed at that fact. She was under-estimating Cass.
That's what this enter series has been. Everyone has been under-estimating her and then get their bodies flung onto a wall or are on the floor wondering, "What the fuck just happened?"
You don't want her to be winning every single freaking fight because even Cass in the old DCU didn't do that. She did struggle when she fought her first "boss fight" in #3 of her ongoing. She won in the end, but she still struggled and passed out.
If she went all god mode she'd be Harper Row. Do you want her to be exactly like Harper Row?
>>79757499 >But the thing is she hasn't jobbed in the way you think. >She made Helena bleed and bad. Look at this face.
Made her bleed. Yeah. Made her all angry and shit. We're having a real fight here! Who will it be? Who's going on top?
Look. Helena being able to fight her solo and not lose horribly is jobbing. She's fucking Helena Bertinelli, not Deathstroke the Godmoderator. Letting them fight evenly makes Cassandra look weak, because Helena is weak - weak among superheroes! I'm sure Helena could totally kick any random civilian crook's ass, but she is simply not supposed to be at Cassandra's level. And Harper fucking Row isn't supposed to be even at Helena's level.
>She did struggle when she fought her first "boss fight" in #3 of her ongoing
Did you miss the part where that guy was an actual metahuman? Superstrength and whatever? Here's another fucking thing Cassandra did in her earliest issues: she kicked down a prison wall. They most certainly did not play her down. Even her losses were because she was taking bullets for a bystander and such, cool losses. Never because she wasn't powerful enough to tackle whatever was the problem.
>>79754676 I will agree that the only thing of worth in this series is Cassandra herself. The story is awful and Harper feels too forced for me to truly enjoy, but I can't complain with any aspect of how they're handling Cassandra so far. They're keeping true to the most defining aspects of her personality, while throwing in new things that work with the base like the changed backstory.
A lot of people hate what they did to Cain and I do too, but I don't give much of a crap about Cain himself. I'm more saddened that the connection he and Cass had is gone for the sake of her character, not his.
I swear the writers on this book were traumatized by DiTF or something. I don't agree with Lobdell's "mystical martial arts god" shit but this is just too much. He gets jobbed by people years (in experience, training AND actual age) behind him all the time without even giving so much as a fight.
The constant fight between the fags that think he should be muh nothing personel bat and the dudes that just outright hate him killed his character. They should fucking return him to the grave
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