Why are minority heroes insulted on /co/ when they are new, but ot when they are guys like the 70s X Men, or Kyle Rayner or Choi Atom or the Black Firestorm or Japanese Dr Light or Johm Stewart and stuff?
Is it just anything that ckmesrout in the internet era will be put ibdee a deluge of buzzwords and shit?
1. Almost every single new "minority" hero stole their mantle from a white male hero.
2. It's almost always done for agenda purposes.
3. They're usually written as horribly as possible because we're supposed to be happy enough that they just exist.
4. Villains are still overwhelmingly white guys.
Vision, Tony, Falcon, and Jane weren't created to push an Agenda. They're all characters from the 60s. Kid Nova wasn't created to push an agenda, but to help Loeb cope with the loss of his son to cancer. You could argue that Kamala was created to push an agenda, but she's also the best character on the team and a significantly better character than Carol was as Ms. Marvel.
The only one you could really say was created to push an agenda was maybe Miles.
I think there's a difference between wanting more "diverse" characters with their own identity and handing over hero mantles that previously belonged to white male characters to non-white characters to pander to SJWs.
Please don't pretend to be retarded. You know damn well there's a difference between that and what's going on now with modern Marvel in so many white male heroes being replaced by non-white male heroes.
So if a white guy is succeded by a minority it's torches and pitch forks.
I have been here for years, and I noticed co had this huge hard on for legacy heroes, and was rioting against the New 52 for "silver age status quo" shit, and yet when Marvel does it, they are the devil? It's a double standard.
Tell than to Ryan Choi, Dr Light, the entire Bronze Age Xmen reboot, Jason Rusch, Kalder Ahn,Rhodey Iron Man,John Stewart,Kyle Rayner,Zatanna, Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel Monica, etc.
Is every legacy hero who isn't a white guy a diversity hire?
Because writers back then didn't use the characters as mouth pieces to shut up dissenters. It comes off as modern writers feeling very insecure about the whole thing. They even did it with Laura in the new Wolverine book, and barely anyone bitched about that, and hell, the ones who did mostly did so because it was so out of character for her to do something like that. Fuck, imagine if this shit had happened with Jaime when he became Blue Beetle.
You really can't argue that they haven't been setting this up for the past few years.
They've(Marvel Specifically) tried diversity every new generation but it never sticks so they decided to replace everyone this time and make it stick.
That or they'll wait til the sales get low enough and bring everyone back to better sales.
> writers back then didn't use the characters as mouth pieces to shut up dissenters.
>That or they'll wait til the sales get low enough and bring everyone back to better sales.
Sam had sub 20k sales for almost his entire 30+ issue run, and Marvel still says "fuck Richard". Marvel will keep doing the wrong thing until it works out.
They're older so there's no use complaining about them, the damage (or whatever the grievance is) is already done
also Kyle Rayner wasn't created as a minority, him being half Mexican was a retcon that came years later
The intent has a ot to do with it.
In the case of 70s to early 90s comics characters, they came an interest of creating a increase on the number of reader from a certain audience whie still maintaing their main audience satisfied. In the ealy 70s, many characters came from things like the increasing care for the struggle of native americans or the reforming relationship between Japan and America, so there were a lot of japanese and native character.
80s and 90s, the same thing, but some more genuine exemples like Steel and most of the black/asian legacy characters we have today. Also greater awareness of "gang violance" and "youth problems" made the writers want to create characters that face those issues (Steel's first major case was fighting a gang war in Metropolis).
While today, the issue isn't really increasing the appeal of a book, but substitution. A marketing guy goes, "this group of people are more likely to spend money with this crap than the usual guys that got tired of our bullshit, so do this now", so the intent becomes audience substitution. Other aspect if the many of the characters seem to not wanna cause a legit like for the character, but to piss people off and cause controversy, for exemple there are the several "not my cap" moments on Sam's book or the other memetastic screen caps you guys like to bait around. They are daring you to dislike it so they can lable you a racist/sexist/whatever then the writer feel like he has the right to do absolutly insane shit like the Whor/Cap kiss out of nowhere.
Hell, imagine anything like this ever happening in DC comics. They're all REALLY white superheroes over there.
Batman was replaced by Azrael after Bane and that became a big disaster, then Dick stepped in later on after Bruce died/timetravelled/wasDarkseidZapped/whatever and as good as the writing was there it just didn't work, the whole thing was always controversial to start with. And they were both whitey-white-white, a minority Batman would have failed even harder.
Then there was Superman's death and the 4 replacements for his 4 books, one of them (Steel) was super-secretly black, soo edgy, but it's not like anyone of them was actually an official one and only NEW Superman. No, it was Mullet Superman who came to the rescue. That book's diversity quota was limited to red and blue.
How's /co/ feel about Earth2 Superman? Think he has the chops to take over for the big guy? Would DC ever have the balls? Of course not. They sell whitebread milktoast comics for a reason.
WonderWoman has been replaced by Artemis(?)... I don't read WW. Maybe that wasn't garbage? Was it? Would it have worked with an Asian WW?
Some of the JLA roster is actually outright tolken inclusions. It's hard to argue they're all on that team because as heroes themselves have the same draw as Supes, Bats, WW, 'Lantern, Flash,...Aquaman. Simon Baz, anyone?
Can anyone here explain to me why THAT hero roster reflects a non-agenda depiction of reality more than Marvel's current PC activism?
Because white dominance in heroic depictions IS a social agenda that's getting pushed too.
What agenda does Kamala even push?
The "Muslims are human beings too and immigrants still are different from people grown up in the US" agenda?
Heaven forfend we accept strange people as humans in the Tristate area.
What she really is, is Sana Amanat's self-insert.
There ARE a lot of Muslims in the Tristate area, I live in upstate NY where everyone is a Dutch/German son of a farmer and every so often there's just a random gal in a headscarf walking down the street.
Also lots of Mormons. But they walk down the street wearing white shirts and black neckties/pants... Are there any Mormon superheroes?
And he's renounced the presumed citizenship that everyone believed he had.
We need to build a Kryptonite wall...
Because many of the new ones are inserted into popular heroes' shoes poorly.
Jane picked up the hammer because Nick Fury whispered something in Thor's ear (and Sif and/or Grunhilde are better Asgardian heroines anyway)
Miles came around due to Ultimate Peter dying, and his run has had way too much "You're TOTALLY spider-man and everyone accepts that" from the cast, other-dimensional Peters, resurrected Ultimate Peter (and his venom blast is utter boring bullshit)
Kamala's cool, she can stay
Sam'll just never be as cool a name as Dick Rider
Laura had to go back on her "I'm my own person, I'm not Wolverine" thing to be wolverine (and why did someone clone a clone? Why did they clone Laura sans regeneration? What does fem-wolverine have to offer?)
Basically, they're written like shit/have shitty reasons for being so people treat them like shit
Not to mention that, instead of being original, Marvel just wants to cash in other hero's popularity and hand it over to minority characters and that's just cheap.
That first thing's just a question of writing: FalCap had a great first story run fighting hydra for S.H.I.E.L.D. (ending was weak though) but then the stories turned all details political instead of fun adventures and they began to suck superhard. That's not on the character, that's on the writer. And Jane gets magically transformed into genderbender Thor just like how the original identity of Dr. Blake was a normal guy until he was transformed into a completely different person. Miles sucks at this, yeah, but so did Peter. That's what being a young Spiderman is.
-I actually don't like Kamala. But she can stay.
-Sam should go by "Snap" Wilson. I love that name, it's just so black'sploitation.
-They need to put Vampilee in that book and reprise her old Wolverine sidekick role.
And that last bit I have to disagree with: This is Marvel being original. This is something that nobody would have ever expected and wouldn't/couldn't have been done anywhere else. And it's crazy risky controversial shit like this that made the original heros so popular in the first place.
>hor just like how the original identity of Dr. Blake was a normal guy until he was transformed into a completely different person.
Didn't Donald Blake hold the soul of Thor trapped in mortal form because reasons (I'd imagine Loki)
>Miles sucks at this, yeah, but so did Peter. That's what being a young Spiderman is.
Sucks at what? What's being a young Spider-man?
-having absorbed a lifetime of background Utah radiation the mild-mannered Richard Romney one day discovered his amazing super abilities and fueled by his mega Mormon morality met his prophesied fate as Utah-Man!-
>because reasons (I'd imagine Loki)
I thought it was Odin forcing Thor to learn Humility by living the life of a mortal? (I'm pretty sure that that's where the bit in the movie where Odin gets pissed at his smugness and boots him out of Asgard came from).
1st: Yes, Blake had Thor's soul. Humanity and amnesia was a curse put on Thor by Odin himself to teach Thor humility, but the hammer would temporarily break the curse. Of course, if apart from the hammer for too long he would change back. To go back to his regular life he would sometimes throw it into the sky and let it fly around the earth until he called for it. Basically the same mechanics the Thoreplacement now lives with.
2nd: Miles doesn't know what he's doing, and admits that outright in a lot of comics.
Falcon was created to be a token black sidekick. Jane was turned into Thor in one of the MOST blatant attempts at pandering in recent history.
It doesn't even bother me, but the agenda is absolutely there (though it's just an attempt to tap into other demographics and not some conspiracy against the white man)
No one talks shit about cho for the same reason people who actually read comics don't care about the falcon being cap. The idea at least.
it kinda makes sense. Half of Amadeuses story revolves are hulk and a bro with the strength of the hulk. It is a real mantle passing instead of a blatant agenda being push.
Plus cho is rad as fuck. He was the perfect partner to herc and if all this other shit wasn't going on his inclusion as a new hulk would have been a highpoint. It still is but lessened bc of this other shit
>FalCap had a great first story run fighting hydra for S.H.I.E.L.D. (ending was weak though) but then the stories turned all details political instead of fun adventures and they began to suck superhard.
I remember /co/ barely talking about that first arc, so it seems a lot of the people here are much more interested in political stories.
Ya know, this screenshot is the last time I remember anyone using chink
gook seems more current
Gook is specifically Korean. Mi gook = America in Korean. During the Korean war, you would have Koreans shouting Mi gook at American soldiers in support, cue thousands of soldiers hearing them identifying themselves as "gook".
It's a total mystery.
Maybe it has more to do with the character of those making cruel and insulting comments that belittle IRL people than with the comic characters themselves...? Maybe? You think?
See what I did there? The link between "character" and "characters"?
How some people IRL reflect certain fictional people in comics...?
How they see themselves, or should see themselves in a particular character?
There's a whole mirroring element there in how some people can no longer see themself in the heroes who the evil sociopathic villian characters hate so much.
Who would these people relate to now?
Why are you bringing up the single most defensive example of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ???
The thing people use to demand conformity so as not to hurt anyone's unique special little butterfly feelings?
Why are you making that cry for attention/help?
Is that right? Did I get that right this time?
Is the whiney defensive anon who can't face being called out on who and what he is a special little snowflake? Or a special little cupcake, maybe?
I just don't know. Can anyone tell me what kind of delicate little thing this guy is?
It's interchangable among racist plebians and moronic SJWs. 4chan is infamous for being the internet hate machine. A higher standard applies here. Being correct and precise matters. If you call a chopari a gweilo, you're a mouthbreathing moron.
Hanguk, Nippon, Vietcong, Goo Goo. These are the origin words of those terms.
>What are the Laotian? Louts?
They count as Hmong.
English speakers don't have enough contact with them to develop a specific national term. Vietnamese or Chinese on the other hand do have specific terms, of which I'm not familiar with.
I don't agree with the 'agenda' terminology, but the gist of it all is more or less right.
I have no problem with any character being any race or creed or colour.
But that character needs to stand on its own two feet.
You can't just take the oppressed demographic of the week, dress them in someone else's costume, give them lame half-assed characterization and expect that shit to fly.
Kamala stands out because she really legitimately has an interesting perspective that we haven't seen in comics before, and because despite her third generation hand-me-down name she has a superhero persona + costume of her own.
What can we say about the others? Jane foster was a lame blond love interest character with absolutely nothing interesting or unique about her. Now they put her in someone else's clothes and and get her to shout vaguely 'empowering' language at her foes and kick their asses with POWER....
I'm disappointed. I would have thought that people who write stories for a living would have figured out that the ability to kick people's asses simply isn't compelling without some kind of drama or struggle to go with it. Jane Foster was a boring cardboard cutout of a character without powers. Giving her Thor's hammer doesn't make her any better.
I'll be first to admit that I don't know much about falcon, so I'm not going to touch that one.
I will posit a question to people who know better, however:
What details of Sam Wilson's characterization can you recall, off the top of your head, other than the fact that he's black?
First thing, tell me what you think made Donald Blake interesting or unique?
Now Falcon is interesting and unique though, I'd LOVE to tell you about him but his origin story is basically a rorschach test. You'll hate it.
Clark Kent is superman acting like a doofus to hide himself. That's not lame. That's just more of superman doing his thing.
Donald Blake was a totally separate persona that was created by Odin as a prison for Thor. At some point they realized that one of these characters had depth and the other did not. So they got rid of one of them and avoided mentioning it ever again.
You know they actually did this same thing with Carol and Ms Marvel in the original run? Carol Danvers would black out and a Ms Marvel persona would surface.
Only with carol it was the other way around -- Mr Marvel was the flat badly characterized device, while Carol Danvers was rounded and interesting.
When they got around to dropping that conceit, she just became carol all the time.
Well, you still haven't learned the value of humanizing Thor but showing an ample understanding of secret identity intricacies has convinced me that someone at least cares about who's behind the masks.
Sam Wilson, The Falcon, began his comic history as someone Original Captain America met in South America when fighting a group of NeoNazi throwaway villians. Poor Sam got mixed up with them when his small plane went down in the South American jungle, he found his way to a small villiage with the help of Redwing, the falcon Sam inexplicably shared a telepathic connection to. Needing money to get home, having personal knowledge of the Jungle, and literally having a bird'seye view of the landscape, he sold his talents as a jungle guide to the wrong people. Cap saves/teams up with/befriends him and happy to see anouther NYC native so far from home, makes him a traveling companion, and eventual sidekick. Later on Tony Stark makes him that flying backpack wingsuit so that the name "Falcon" makes more sense and he has at least one non-suck ability.
Where did the sucky bird-pathic powers come from? Why was he alone in that single engine plane flying over the South American jungle? Why did it crash?
Sam Wilson can't say about the limited telepathy, or the crash, but the reason he remembers for travelling so far outside of Harlem is to continue his dead father's missionary and aid relief work.
But here's the kicker: The original Red Skull has claimed the true origin is his own evil manipulations using the reality-warping cosmic cube. In a conviluted plan to make Steve Rogers lose faith in minorities the Red Skull says he set up the entire South America situation, bird-talk powers, crash, and even claims he reality-altered Wilson into becoming an ideal friend and sidekick for Rogers who would inevitbly betray Cap. Why would that happen? Because Red Skull claimed Sam Wilson was originally the criminal thug "Snap" Wilson smuggling drugs in that plane.
I don't hate them, in fact I like them (we're talking about something very generalized) enough that I'm willing to be hard on these concepts just like I am for any concept.I don't think /co/ has an issue ether and it's more them not articulating their thoughts in a way that can't turned around into something stupid like the shitstorm that happened with Korra and people coming to the conclusion that /co/ hates homosexuals.
The problems people have with characters like these comes down to the execution rather then any form of bigotry. An example is X-23 complaining about people on the internet saying mean things about her or other similar events. There's a lot of pointless bickering and baiting on both sides rather then coming to an understanding. I don't even have a foundness of how minority capes were written in the past, the 70s was fucking shit in retrospect but we barely learned from the mistakes of the past. I also hate how with barely any exceptions minority capes have to have "The Struggle" be one of the biggest focuses of their character leading into some hamfisted social commentary, it really holds us back because we just accept that shit.
Any thoughts on this?
You can wikiconfirm this all, but the real question is - IF - the Red Skull was telling the truth? He is a lying Nazi troll. But then there's the bird telpathy...
And if reality was changed, does it even matter? Snap Wilson, sleaze, was retconned into Sam Wilson, saint. Doesn't that mean he's as real as all post-retcon changes???
Who knows? Marvel intentionally never resolved any of these questions.
But if you always think less of some people you'll feel one way, if you give people the benifit of the doubt you feel otherwise.
He's a purely political character in every respect.
The Hydra villians even taunt him with this question in that first Falcon-as-Captain story. It always seriously messes with Sam's head.
I'm fine with minority heroes when they're new and original heroes.
I'm not fine with a minority character replacing an existing hero for no great reason in universe to pander to a certain audience
No, OP seems to be talking about people who hate currently minority characters yet are perfectly fine with older examples like John Stewart or the All-New All-Different X-Men "replacing" white heroes.
Well that's only actually true with Amadehulk.
Thor Odinson can''t lift the hammer and was on this whole soul-searching quest to redeem his worthiness when he disappeared, pretty good character development for a god who always had a hubris problem. But Thor Odinson and the Thoreplacement were BOTH active heroes at the same time. Thor even stayed a full Avenger without the hammer.
Same with Captain America. Marvel has been replacement happy with Captain America forever. U.S.Agent and Bucky both took up the shield before longtime sidekick Falcon (it's just his turn now) and Steve's in the same S.H.I.E.L.D.uniform as when Bucky was Captain, and is still a main character in the Avengers comics.
And Wolverine has been dead for (too many) years now. Womanverine is the logical heir as the literal fem-clone heir. I don't know what good writing her away does when she's already the go-to claws mutant in New X-Men but I too do hate that stupid New Wolverine comic.
There's logical groundwork making most of this reasonable, it's just the intentional timing it all together that makes it overkill.
What? No, that's not what I meant. What I mean was I read OP as if he was wondering why people are bothered by Captain Falcon yet no one is going "NIGGERSNIGGERSNIGGERS" about John Stewart.
Falcon wasn't Cap's sidekick, they just worked together a lot. Falcon should have stayed Falcon because that's his thing and Bucky should have taken over again if they really needed to get rid of Steve. Bucky is Cap's Robin
But Bucky replaced Original Nick Fury as super-secret earth protecting assassin spy.
Because Original Nick Fury replaced a dead Watcher.
Mind you, nobody is complaining about a tiny-headed Watcher, or a the-top-level S.H.I.E.L.D. spy who has both eyes.
I don't dislike minority heroes, I read some of their books. If a minority character was a white characters sidekick and then took on the mantle that would be fine. Taking away the white character solely so you can insert a minority in their place annoys me
But who has been really taken out?
Spider-Man has his own comic (too many Spiders if you ask me), Steve Rogers leads a team, we get a standalone for other-dimension Logan, Odinson has only really been gone a short while and we are bound to hear about it later when the arc about him being gone and things going to shit ends with him deus ex machina - ing on the scene with Ultimate Thor's hammer.
For me everything would be fine if they just cut Jane out of Thor and they would stop hiring monkeys to write Queen of Hel. Seriously, how do you fuck up Battle Angel Angela going full Orpheus?
Is that the reason Wilson rotates ist of A-Force? Because nobody else can write women at Marvel? Well, I would not object.
>Jane was turned into Thor in one of the MOST blatant attempts at pandering in recent history.
Yes, but Jane herself wasn't created to push an agenda. She was created to be Donald Blake's love interest.
I don't really read Marvel, but wasn't their original goal to find the O5? Anyway, they didn't take the identities of the originals, and I thought those guys showed up again soon after.