AKA, The part where Brevoort appeases the fans and explains everything that wasn't explained in the comics.
On the new timeline:
>I’m sure here or there we’ll deal with some of it. But part of the reason for the 8-month gap is so that every comic didn’t have to be about all of the bookkeeping of the aftermath of Secret Wars. Generally speaking, and we’ve seen seeds of this in the books that have come out already, the people of the Marvel Universe and the other heroes believe that there was a cosmic incursion, and the world and the universe were saved at the cost of the lives of Reed Richards and his family. It’s that simple.
>As far as Ben and Johnny know, everybody’s dead. As far as everyone on Earth knows, those characters are all dead and gone. And this is why there are memorials in the Baxter Building, and this is why college students at M.I.T. are hoping that Reed’s final papers are published posthumously.
On the events of the timeline gap
>I think in most cases it will happen in the individual titles. And the stuff that happened in that gap will unfold there as ongoing mysteries and changes that will be revealed over time.
>Certainly in the Inhumans books and the X-Men books, we’re gonna be revealing what it was that happened to create this sort of “cold war” situation between mutants and Inhumans. In the Daredevil book, over time, we’re gonna reveal what it was that happened to allow Matt Murdock to have his secret identity back again, and be back as a practicing lawyer.
>All of the titles will deal with whatever their individual business is on a timeline that is best for those particular stories.
On "Prime Earth":
>Technically, we’re just calling it “The Marvel Universe.” We call it the “Prime Earth” in Secret Wars because we had to call it something and we didn’t want to have a number. We really wanted to retire “616”, despite [editor] Jordan White’s protestations.
>We’ll have all the readers of Web Warriors showing up going, “But, but, but, in issue 1 there’s a locator that says ‘616’!” And yeah, you can decide which one you want to believe – Secret Wars, or Web Warriors. Web Warriors #1 came out before Secret Wars #9 – I wouldn’t have let them put a locator that said “Prime Earth” because we weren’t there yet.
>But really, it’s just the Marvel Universe.
Something about a pizza:
>The analogy that we used back when we were first describing this to creators, [Editor-In-Chief] Axel Alonso in particular may have even coined this analogy, is that it’s like a pizza. The Marvel Universe is a pizza and it gets blown up, and then you wind up with a pizza that’s got slices from all these other different universes, all these other different pies, so it’s got all these crazy toppings on it. And after Secret Wars ends, you’ve put the pizza back together, but some of those strange toppings are still on the pizza. So Miles is kind of a topping from another pie that is now part of this pie.
>And that is definitely a thing that happened by the Molecule Man’s intent, and by his intercession as part of that process. So Miles gave him an offering and received a boon. And now, at least in Secret Wars and in All-New, All-Different Avengers, talks in all uppercase letters.
>All of the titles will deal with whatever their individual business is on a timeline that is best for those particular stories.
aka some will be dropped and ignored depending on if the writer feels like going there.
I wonder if Hickman tried to get it to be Earth-8, but he had to settle for Universe-8 because Brevoort and Co. can't have any fun.
I wonder just how bad the editorial problems are at Marvel.
So basically, they make the exact same mistakes that DC has repeatedly done with all their attempts at relaunches?
Cool, glad to see Secret Wars really was just COIE with the serial numbers filed off.
Miles will never explain why he chose to plagiarize Spidey when Spidey is still alive and has better people in line to take up the name
No one will have to acknowledge OMIT and OMD despite keeping MJ and Peter separated 'because that's how it is in this universe'
What Nick Fury whispered to Thor is purely 616, nothing to do with Earth 8
Ultimae Peter died in a universe crunch after being brought back only to kiss Miles' ass
Marvel - now free to have all of the shitty after-effects without any of the shitty reasons for said effects
>tfw if Hickman hadn't wasted page space on about a dozen nearly-blank pages then SecretWars would have been under 8 issues
>convoluted X-Men continuity will remain unaltered, and to make matters worst now has to account for a 16 month time skip which has rendered 100's of characters missing in action
Them's the breaks.
>Miles will never explain why he chose to plagiarize Spidey when Spidey is still alive and has better people in line to take up the name
that's actually a really great question. heroes only take names when the other is dead
Eight months, but it's still just as convoluted in the end.
It's basically just a means to allow for a clean slate to work from. They probably didn't even put half the effort that was put into making a timeline for "Convergence", I bet.
Bendis' X-Men never caught up to Time Runs Out he had just begun paying Axis lip service when everything ended for SW.
so we still never saw anything about Nation X from Hickman's Avengers
Lol Marvel doesn't even pretend that X-Men matter anymore.
Sooner they get shunted by an event into a pocket X-Ghetto the better. They just need to exempt a handful of mutants or make prime universe versions of them so both the xbooks and regular books can play with them.
>We’ll have all the readers of Web Warriors showing up going, “But, but, but, in issue 1 there’s a locator that says ‘616’!” And yeah, you can decide which one you want to believe – Secret Wars, or Web Warriors.
Whether he intended to or not, that looks like a shot at Web Warriors.
>Yeah, sure, you can believe whater. You can believe Secret Wars or you can believe--PFFT!--Web Warriors. Sure, whatever.
It's like he's actively shitting on a book for not being as important/lower tier because people will use it to get under his skin. What a fucking child.
Did Peter ever call himself Spider-girl?
Maddie didn't go around calling herself Spider-man
The man has spent 20 years trying to get 616 thrown out. He finally manages it and the whole thing gets undermined right out the gate, and thus invalidated, by a book in another editorial division that he had no control over.
So yeah, he's taking potshots at it. But it's too little too late, people are going to keep calling it 616 whether he likes it or not.
>The Marvel Universe is a pizza and it gets blown up, and then you wind up with a pizza that’s got slices from all these other different universes, all these other different pies, so it’s got all these crazy toppings on it. And after Secret Wars ends, you’ve put the pizza back together, but some of those strange toppings are still on the pizza.
That's a pretty lazy analogy.
Marvel doesn't give a shit about continuity though. This allows them to ice Reed and Sue (and Valeria and Franklin) while giving them an excuse to do yet another fucking soft reboot and renumbering.
Never mind the fact that they probably only have enough good creative teams for maybe 20 books and the market is hard pressed to support that many from Marvel and DC
Oh and I guess it allowed Marvel to permanently shelve the 1610 and port over the small number of characters from it that mattered.
Although I'm seriously irritated that they couldn't leave 1610 Reed dead for at least a year or two before using him as a villain. And they are making him useless on a shit book even
Haha Bendis has basically chased off any prime talent at this point. I liked Hickman but it was clear that he doesn't play well with others and the rest of the architects seem completely unwilling to coordinate plotlines.
Having an absolutely worthless editorial doesn't help either. Quesada should get some credit for certain things but he completely destroyed the idea that creative teams should work with or for the editors.
Quesada gets a lot of shit for a lot of reasons (many of which he deserves getting shit for) but he was also able to help turn around a deeply struggling company post comics bust by attracting top tier talent to Marvel.
Arguably he helped save Marvel even though some of the consequences have made Marvel Comics pretty awful.
>Quesada gets a lot of shit for a lot of reasons (many of which he deserves getting shit for) but he was also able to help turn around a deeply struggling company post comics bust by attracting top tier talent to Marvel.
>Arguably he helped save Marvel even though some of the consequences have made Marvel Comics pretty awful.
really we'd probably be better off if Marvel had died 10-20 years ago, and that's coming from someone who's liking most of the post Secret Wars books
A lot of those creators went off to greener pastures with creator owned books.
And that's always the problem. With creator owned you can always hold out hope that your series will be optioned for a movie and you'll get a massive payday.
With company owned you get more exposure and get to play with a lot of fun toys but there is rarely a big payday at the end.
And now with even top level books having difficulties selling without constant renumbering shenanigans I'm not seeing a bunch of reasons to stay with either of the big two.
Especially if you can shop off complete retreads of existing comic properties as your own ala Millar.
Probably thinks it's too confusing for new readers. Brevoort's obsessed with the idea that anyone new to superhero comics will be confused if they just jump in and will be unable to work things out, hence the constant relaunches, the idea that comic books should be treated like seasons and relaunch seemingly annually now, getting rid of the designation 616, etc.
He's like the anti-Mark Gruenwald. I wonder what Gru would think if he was still alive. The guy obviously loved digging into old continuity while at the same time bringing in his own ideas, I mean he basically singlehandedly created Cap's rogues gallery, so I'd think he wouldn't be down with the idea of treating the readers like they're gibbering morons.
Of course, Gru probably would've been kicked out of Marvel by the time Quesada came around and the re-organization happened and he'd be lucky to be slumming it on C-list DC books knowing current comics.
>Brevoort's obsessed with the idea that anyone new to superhero comics will be confused if they just jump in and will be unable to work things out
Because cape characters are so deep and complex
Like Black Cat
Imagine a new reader
"Black Cat's a villain? Why? What happened? I'll ask /co/ [...] so she was punched in the face and turned evil because that damaged her non-existant criminal-rep? Who wrote this? A 4 year old?"
Bendis can still write halfway decent solo books but he can't provide top end writing for 4+ books at a time (honestly hardly any writers have ever been able to do that).
So he's gotten really lazy and depends on decompression way too much which makes sense on a book like Daredevil or USM where there is a lot of interpersonal drama between the action scenes but makes team books like Avengers and X-Men a complete chore to read.
The ultimate problem is that he's basically storyboarding for screen adaptations but comics works better without extreme storyboarding unless you are telling a really plot light graphic novel.
Bendis is good for the graphic novel style but utterly sucks at the standard Marvel house style especially for events that someone else is plotting. Unfortunately he's the top dog now so the Marvel house style has basically become whatever works well for 6 issue trade paperback collections.
I can understand the frustrations new readers might have with dealing with continuity porn that forces you to track down obscure issues from the 70s to explain a plot point especially after Marvel produced so much utter shit in the 80s and 90s but at the end of the day you also want to be able to tell stories and have characters progress which is virtually impossible if you soft reboot every year or every change of creative teams.
That's when you get into really boring cycles where everyone basically does their take on classic storylines from the bronze age.
I'm sorry but there are only so many times I'm willing to read yet another take on the Dark Phoenix storyline or yet another retelling of Peter's origin story.
Unfortunately Marvel (and DC) seem unable to figure out a safe medium between constant reboots and continuity porn.
DC made the mistake of doing a hard reboot of DC prime but not rebooting GL and Batman so now you have the worst of both worlds. Marvel on the other hand just lets creators basically do whatever and ignore events or continuity.
Early to mid 80s was good, late 80s started the slide into overproduction and overexposure of characters that helped fuel the bubble of the 90s.
We tend to think that Iron Age shit was exclusively 90s but there was plenty of it at Marvel in the late 80s as well.
I'm not sure how any of that justifies 'turned evil because she was hit in the face and believed that her criminal rep had suffered due to that instead of, say, her many years as a hero'
He was good but he was one half of the equation, the other was Bill Jemas.
Jemas may have been an asshole, he may have had some bad ideas from a creative standpoint and he gets lambasted for removing Waid from Fantastic Four and the reasoning for it but the guy has something nobody else at Marvel had in a long time or has had since: balls.
The guy was at least in part responsible for the Ultimate line, successful shit like Origins, placing some level of trust in Quesada in bringing in new talent for expanded "edgier" (in a good and bad way) through imprints like Marvel Knights and MAX, etc. Too bad said comic pissed off Avi Arad and Ike the Kike because "OY VEY THEY'RE MAKIN' IT HARDER TO SELL MY FILMS" so Jemas had to go.
Fuck I'm glad Arad's gone and basically fell on his ass doing so. He's done nothing but the Bratz movie since leaving Marvel and adaptations of vidya and shit like GitS that may or may not ever actually happen.
It's so weird seeing Breevort do this after reading Busiek Thunderbolts, which he edited, which was continuity porn and yet really intelligible if you just dropped in almost anywhere. He must have become really jaded since then.
>continuity porn that forces you to track down obscure issues from the 70s to explain a plot point
There are so many resorces, either fan sites, wikis, Marvel's own site, Wikipedia, Comicvine, asking on /co/ or what the fuck ever that if you're unable to figure out something you may be genuinely retarded and probably shouldn't be reading anything in the first place.
30 years ago the OHOTMU was a novel idea, now you can find even more in-depth shit by looking in Google for 10 seconds. There's zero excuse really. Especially since the only people still reading are the hardcore fans who would be into continuity porn anyway.
Dude if that's Slott's writing do you really think anyone is going to come into this thread and support Slott's control over Pete and his supporting cast?
ASM is a trainwreck because on one hand you have hopeless Peterfags that only read ASM and are too lazy to read anything else and who get NOT MUH PETER about everything and on the other hand you have editorial who think that ASM should be focused at 8-12 year olds as a gateway drug to comics like any self-respecting preteen is actually going to buy single issues these days
>which was continuity porn and yet really intelligible if you just dropped in almost anywhere.
Pretty sure he was editor on Defalco/Ryan FF, too, which did the same thing.
I think he's hiding behind this pretense of being a "pragmatic businessman" when making these decisions. Like how he straight up tells fans that Marvel keeps putting out events, and they'll stop if we stop buying them.Yes, Marvel's a business, but it would help if they at least acted like they wanted things to be different.
Jemas wanted to complete change the FF into a suburban dramedy where Reed was the absent-minded professor inventing dumb shit, Sue was the breadwinner, etc. Waid refused, then came up with a way for it to work but by that point he had been fired.
Fans flipped their shit and Marvel reversed course, reinstating Waid on the title without the change in direction.
Again stupid idea, Jemas had a lot, but it was at least an attempt to do something outside the box and who knows, maybe it would've worked if Waid's idea was accepted and he wasn't fired (I don't think Waid said what it was)..
Pretty sure it was because Waid wasn't doing what Arad wanted with the book. They were supposed to be even more of a "family" and not really go on adventures. That's why the Aguierre-Sacasa Marvel Knights 4 happened concurrently and OOC.
This was actually in the middle of the run; fan outcry was so bad Waid was brought back on.
Protip: Marvel seems to think they are still selling single issues to kids instead of 30-40 year old man children.
30-40 year old manchildren are willing to geek out over continuity porn using online resources (and bittorrent) but Marvel still market like they are selling to kids when that ship passed a long time ago. Virtually nobody I know that is a teenager or god forbid a pre-teen reads single issue comics. If they read western comics at all it's trades but more likely than not they read manga collections because they get better page count for their dollar plus there is anime for a good number of popular series whereas Marvel can barely into cartoon series that aren't aimed at kids.
If Marvel wanted to get kids into comics they'd do more cartoons like EMH and do long form comics ala Spider-man adventures with virtually no external continuity and a low price point.
Marvel Knights 4 was originally supposed to be the replacement for Waid's run and the main FF book until Waid was brought back. The direction 4 went in at the start is closer to what Jemas wanted.
Yeah even simple market research would reveal that to be false. Comics themselves are almost pointless in relationship to the amount of money that WB or Disney make from marketing their IP in other forms.
A decent AAA Batman game or a MCU Avenger movie makes vastly more money than comics currently but there is still this weird hope that comics is the gateway towards making new fanboys when the reality is that cartoons, movies and games are way more critical.
Thing is, Brevoort used to think Marvel's advantage over DC is continuity.
I think that deep down he really doesn't like the massive fuckups some creators do but lets them do their thing because Quesada and later Alonso were in charge.
Even if he as an individual and/or others within editorial wanted things to be different, it would be dumb for him to say so publicly, at least until far later down the line. It's a good way to get fired or pushed out. You can't be a complete open book when business is on the line.
I got into comics as a kid in the late 80s/early 90s. A LOT of the comics I read were in the high issue numbers. Whenever there was a plot reference to something before, the would be an editor's note. Like "You fucked my wife, Doom, I'll get you for that!*" [*See it for yourself in #275!] Even for a kid this shit wasn't off-putting, sometimes if something was cool enough it was fun to ask for a back issue.
There are more resources now than ever before to get caught up on shit. If people are really so overwhelmed by the concept on continuity anymore than fuck, just abandon it and events and just publish wacky monthly adventures with no overarching plot.
This is actually part 2 of the Nrama-Brevoort interview about Secret Wars. Part 1 will be posted in its entirety later.
On the events of the timeline gap, cont'd:
>And some books, likeAstonishing Ant-Man, are doing stories that are set during that period. In the present, Scott Lang is in prison, and we’re seeing stories in the last couple issues that take place some time during that eight-month gap, before he was incarcerated, and slowly unveiling what happened to get him put in prison.
>So each title will deal with filling in whatever their thing is on their own schedule. And that would have been the case hadSecret Wars #9come out in October as it was originally intended.
>That eight month gap was partly there to get us past the problematic nonsense of every book suddenly having to be aboutSecret Warsfor an issue or two, and also to give us the advantage of coming back to an “All-New, All-Different” Marvel Universe that actually looked and felt different than the universe we left behind.
>We wanted the new launches to be able to start with a status quo and a situation already established and then slowly reveal the backstory that got you to that place rather than having to go through all those events linearly.
Part 1: http://www.newsarama.com/27562-brevoort-secret-wars-is-the-biggest-fantastic-four-story-ever-done.html
>Newsarama: Tom, Secret Wars was a massive undertaking that was years in the making. How closely does the finale that was presented inSecret Wars #9resemble what was originally planned, and what changed from the initial idea to the printed page?
>Tom Brevoort: Well, it’s hard to say, in that when we started all of this, originally we didn’t have the endgame all blocked out. It wasn’t until it got to the point where this was going to be a real thing that the endgame became solid. And from there it didn’t really change, materially, at all.
>As I’ve talked about elsewhere, Jonathan [Hickman] had the original idea for doing aSecret Warsseries – I’m a little vague on exactly how far back we had the initial conversations. I think it may have even been before he was writingFantastic Four, when he was just doingSecret Warriors. There was an idea for this book that would have been calledSecret Warsand that would have had the Illuminati fighting incursions from other universes, and that would have been the book, those would have been the Secret Wars. That was the original version of this that got pitched.
>But it wasn’t real yet then, so Jonathan went on to do hisFantastic Fourrun, andShield, and a bunch of other things. It really wasn’t until we went to him and said, “Brian [Bendis] is leavingAvengers, would you be interest in doingAvengers? What would you do withAvengers?” And he said “We can do mySecret Warsidea there. We’ll make thatSecret Wars.”New Avengerswould be that Illuminati book that was the original pitch, and the mainAvengersbook would tell sort of the light side to the dark side. At that point it became a real thing and we began to build the story that would be the actualSecret Wars.
>Initially a few things changed. For one thing, we had just killed Professor X the month before inAvXso he could not be part of the story, and when it was originally pitched and planned, he would have been. This is why we brought the Beast in very early, within two issues I think, ofNew Avengers. We had to sub out Professor X for the Beast.
>But generally speaking, this is the story.
>Nrama: So it came pretty close to what was originally planned by the time it had its genesis inAvengers.
>Brevoort: Yeah. And again, there are little things that shifted along the way, as with anything that runs this long, and things that we didn’t know or could not have anticipated. Nobody could have anticipated that Thor was gonna be a woman at the timeSecret Warshit, because people hadn’t had those ideas yet.
>But the story was mapped out in such a way that those sort of changes could be incorporated into it. The fact that Steve Rogers was gonna be the older, more emaciated Steve, and that Sam Wilson was gonna become Captain America – we could not have anticipated that, and didn’t. But we were able to fold that into the story pretty naturally, which was the beauty of the way this was all arranged, and the beauty of what Jonathan was able to do with it, even factoring that sort of stuff in on the fly.
>Nrama: So, speaking of things you couldn’t have anticipated, this may be a little bit inside baseball, but I want to talk about the delays in getting Secret Warsout. Stuff like that is what it is, and it happens in the business. But speaking from your point of view, as the person steering the ship, what goes through your mind when a book likeSecret Warsstarts getting delays, and how hard was it not to take measures like making creative changes to get the book out sooner?
>Brevoort: Well, you have to weigh that at every step of the way, at every stage, and balance between what’s the short term good, and what’s the long term good.
>Certainly any time a series is delayed, particularly with a series readers are interested in or into, people are upset. Retailers are upset because comics aren’t coming out and consequently, money isn’t flowing into their cash registers. Fans are upset because they don’t have the thing that they want when they want it. And that’s totally understandable. The flipside of that, though, is if you’re going to act in an expedient manner and you’re gonna make a creative switch and throw bodies at a project, what you’re effectively gonna be doing is compromising the integrity of the quality of the product. Which sometimes is necessary, but it’s almost inevitably to the detriment of the longer term future of the work.
>BecauseSecret Warsgot such a strong reaction initially, and throughout the middle, the people at Marvel were more willing to bite the bullet, and suffer the slings and arrows, and hold the line long enough for Jonathan and Esad [Ribic] to finish the story in the manner that it was intended. We took the long term view that the story will be better, it’ll be better received as the issues come out now, it’ll be better remembered in the aftermath, and it’ll have a better, stronger life in its future as a collected edition.
>The project that we point to most often when we talk about this sort of thing isCivil War. AndCivil War, ten years ago, suffered delays, and ten years ago, we held the line and made sure that Mark Millar and Steve McNiven were able to finish that series. And that series, since that time, has been our best-selling collection, our best-selling digital book, our best selling everything. They’re making a movie now that’s based in some degree on that story. So it would seem like, at least in that instance, that was the smart play. It’s not always that, but in this case the decision was made, and the choice was made – and was made at every stage – that this was the way it should be.
>I was talking to somebody about this the other day, and the analogy I made went like this. Obviously, the reason that fans in particular are upset about the delays is that they want the thing that they want; they don’t just want a comic book with theSecret Warslogo on the front of it. They want the experience that got them to that point, and to see that story continue to play out the way they want. They want it now because we’re all impatient and we all want our entertainment.
>But this would sort of be the equivalent of saying, “Well,Star Wars: The Force Awakensis gonna open on this date, but we don’t have the special effects completed yet, and if we’re gonna make that release date, we’re gonna have to cast somebody else to play Finn and Rey for the last 20 minutes of the movie." And you could go and see that version ofThe Force Awakens, but I suspect people would not have been as happy with it. It’s not the same. And that’s an extreme example, but it’s the same kind of example. What people want is the genuine experience.
>And so we made this choice, and we stand behind this choice. Just seeing the smattering of reviews and response that we’ve seen in the last 24 hours, it’s getting an incredibly positive response. So it seems like that was probably the smarter play. Yeah, this comic could have been out three months ago, but it would have been a hack job. It would have been finished by a dozen people, and it would have been a mess, and the reaction and response that we’re seeing now wouldn’t have been there. From this point on, going into the future, these delays all vanish. Anyone who has readCivil Warin the last ten years had no delays – they read it as a book. Even the people who read it ten years ago who had those delays, they forget.
>I’m an old enough fan that I remember the three month delay betweenDark Knight Returns #2and #3, and I remember the two month delay betweenDark Knight Returns #3and #4, but nobody else does. Everybody’s read that as a book. They’ve read it as a collection that’s been on the shelves since 1986. Even the people that were there – those delays evaporate, because then #3 comes out, and then #4 comes out.Watchmen #12was like six months late. But of course you waited for that, and having waited for that, it’s been a book that’s been in print ever since.
>That’s not to say thatSecret Warsis a literary masterpiece on the level of the best that the industry has to offer, per se. Other people can make that determination. That’s not really for me to say.
>What I am saying, though, is that those delays are transitory. They go away, they evaporate once you’re done. Anybody that’s gonna read Secret Wars from today on out, it’s all done. There’s nine issues and you’re gonna read it, and you like it or you don’t like it. We try to balance the short term need with the long term need to get the best result all around.
Every time I see Civil War held up as something positive, a little part of me dies.
>Nrama: It sounds like the biggest priority was preserving the artistic integrity ofSecret Warsas a whole, and as a work.
>Brevoort: Definitely. Especially considering the amount of work that went intoSecret Wars.Secret Warswasn’t just these nine issues – it was three years ofAvengersbefore it, and to some degree, the four years ofFantastic Fourbefore that. So it was a long game. Doing those years ofAvengers, there were times when we had to compromise things. We had issues that were done by multiple artists, or we had to bring in an artist that maybe wasn’t the best choice for the subject matter of that particular issue, but was the best guy we had available in the time frame. For the actualSecret Warsseries, for the climax, nobody wanted to compromise on that. If the reaction toSecret Warshadn’t been so good, we’d probably have been more likely to compromise, because it wouldn’t have mattered as much.
>Nrama: ThroughoutSecret Wars, we’ve been exploring Battleworld, butSecret Wars #9kind of zooms in on Doom and Reed Richards and makes that, really, the central conflict. Why the choice to take it from the macro view to take it from exploring Battleworld and all these territories and characters, and boil it down to these two men for the finale?
>Brevoort: Well, that’s the story. It doesn’t boil down to that – that’s the story. This was always the story going back beyondSecret Wars, and it’s all there in the issues that came before this. This is, inexorably, what it comes down to. There’s no other climax that makes sense, that works. It’s easy to see now; maybe it was a little more disguised when we went into it, but this really was the biggest Fantastic Four story ever done. It had a lot of other characters in it because this was a big story, but this was really a Fantastic Four story. It’s about Reed, and Ben, and Sue, and Johnny, and the Future Foundation kids, and Doom and their relationships.
>The fact that Doom was the main villain, and the fact that Doom and Reed are the eternal opposites, the two sides of the same coin, that relationship extends back to 1962. We didn’t create that. There is no other outcome that resonates so well, that makes so much sense, that feels so emotionally right other than this. And that’s where the story was headed before you read the first page of it. This is what it was about. This is the thing. So there wasn’t even a choice. It wasn’t even like we were just bringing it down to two guys fighting. The end of any story, you’re gonna face the enemy, you’re gonna face the opponent. In this case, that’s Doom. It was always gonna be Doom. And over the course of #7 and #8, we pulled in the threads of all the different Battleworld territories and all the different characters we saw throughout the series. But in the end, it’s gonna come down to this relationship.
>If you look at it, you’ll kind of see that there’s no other version of this that’s more satisfying, or more appropriate. This is the story.
Brevoort on the Fantastic Four and its future:
>We made that decision heading intoSecret Wars. We’ve said this a bunch of times over the years, butFantastic Fouris a title and a concept that has a lot of built in historical importance in the Marvel Universe, but to the readership of today, it doesn’t resonate the same way that X-Men, or Avengers, or even Guardians of the Galaxy does right now. It’s sort of taken for granted. It’s sort of seen as a holdover from another era. Which isn’t to say that the characters aren’t great, or the concepts aren’t important, or that it isn’t a lynchpin of the Marvel Universe, but it’s just the facts of the world, and the zeitgeist of today. Fantastic Four hasn’t been at the forefront.
>And so doing a big story that would be, at least for the time being, the final Fantastic Four story, will hopefully present us with a situation where the heart grows fonder because the thing that you take for granted isn’t around anymore – at least not in the way that it once was. So this is the path that we chose to follow. We’ve had great results with this before. At the end of “Avengers Disassembled,” we stopped having aThorcomic book. And we didn’t have aThorcomic book for a couple years, there was no Thor. And consequently, when theThorcomic book came back, it was an overwhelming hit, it was huge. Some of that is down to the talent that made that book. Certainly J. Michael Straczynski and Olivier Coipel were a top flight team, and approached it with both hands on the wheel, but some of it was also that people were hungry again for a character that, before that, they didn’t really pay a lot of attention to. So hopefully, over time, it’ll be the same thing for the Fantastic Four.
>The other thing is, those characters are not completely gone. None of them are dead – though people thought they would be, because we planted some memorials and did some eulogizing in the earliest “All-New, All-Different” Marvel books. But clearly, nobody has actually perished, and Ben and Johnny are active in a bunch of books around the line right now.
>And whether it’s tomorrow, or in a year, or in five years, the potential, and indeed the likelihood, is that there will be some newFantastic Fourbook again. And in the meantime, those characters, for the people that love them, are still in play, and are still a factor in the Marvel Universe. But the omnipresent but overlooked Fantastic Four is not. Hopefully that absence will actually make it more valuable when we announce some Fantastic Four thing at some date in the future.
I will finish where the OP left off in part two shortly.
>Nrama: Speaking of the “All-New, All-Different” Marvel Universe, you mentioned some of the mysteries that are prevalent right now. Knowing what we now know about the Richards family rebuilding the multiverse – or what some writers are calling the “omniverse” – are some of the changes we’re seeing like the death of the Kree [lies], the effect of the Terrigen Mists on mutants, are those things intentional aspects of the world they rebuilt, or are they incidental to the world being reformed?
>Brevoort: I think in most cases it is incidental. The work on the Marvel Universe is done. It’s done by the last pages ofSecret Wars #9. Work on all of the other universes is not done, and that’s the work that the Future Foundation and the family are undertaking. Some of it’s done.
>There are certainly enough realities there that the Web Warriors can go to Spider-Gwen’s Earth-65, so clearly that one has been rebuilt and put back by now, but others have not, and new ones have not yet been born. The things that have happened or changed happened in that reformation period, Miles Morales being the one that was most concretely inSecret Wars #9, and being the biggest piece that was added to the puzzle.
>But there were also other elements. We saw inThors #4that, after the new Marvel Universe was created, at a certain point out of a wormhole or a portal, the hammer of Ultimate Thor came crashing down on the moon, where presumably we’ll see it again, most likely in the page ofThe Mighty Thor.
>>We made that decision heading intoSecret Wars. We’ve said this a bunch of times over the years, butFantastic Fouris a title and a concept that has a lot of built in historical importance in the Marvel Universe, but to the readership of today, it doesn’t resonate the same way that X-Men, or Avengers, or even Guardians of the Galaxy does right now. It’s sort of taken for granted. It’s sort of seen as a holdover from another era. Which isn’t to say that the characters aren’t great, or the concepts aren’t important, or that it isn’t a lynchpin of the Marvel Universe, but it’s just the facts of the world, and the zeitgeist of today. Fantastic Four hasn’t been at the forefront.
>We don't have the movie rights
>We’ve seen a couple of those. Ultimate Reed Richards has been running around with W.H.I.S.P.E.R. inNew Avengers. How did he get there? Well, clearly he survived these events in some way, shape, or form, and that story, the wheres and hows of it, what he’s doing now, and why he still talks in uppercase and lowercase balloons when everybody else in the book talks all uppercase is all stuff that will come out in the course of thoseNew Avengersstories.
>But the work that was done, the machination of putting the Marvel Universe back together, that was all done inSecret Wars #9, and I don’t think you can blame Reed for Ultimate Thor’s hammer showing up on the moon. It’s the next story that happens. It’s a thing that comes at the fault of these things that are going on. It’s not like he and Franklin and Molecule Man sat down and said, “You know what? Put the hammer over there.”
>Nrama: Going back to the placement of Miles Morales in the Marvel Universe, there’s a scene inSecret Wars #9where Owen Reece says “I owe you one kid,” because he gave him the hamburger in an earlier issue. But there’s a slight debate about whether Owen’s payback was allowing Miles to exist in the Marvel Universe, or by restoring his mother to life, or a combination of those things, kind of just resetting his status quo in the Marvel Universe.
>Brevoort: It’s really both. And it goes even beyond his mom. Not only is she there, his dad is there, Ganke is there, Bombshell is there. We’ll see more of this as the new MilesSpider-Manbook comes out, but basically Miles Morales’s life has been transplanted into the Marvel Universe.
[cue pizza analogy]
>And that is definitely a thing that happened by the Molecule Man’s intent, and by his intercession as part of that process. So Miles gave him an offering and received a boon. And now, at least inSecret Warsand inAll-New, All-Different Avengers, talks in all uppercase letters.
>Nrama: That seems to be a thing, uppercase versus lowercase letters in speech balloons.
>Brevoort: It kind of mattered inSecret Wars, but it doesn’t necessarily everywhere else. Ms. Marvel, for example, speaks upper and lowercase inMs. Marvel, but speaks all uppercase inAll-New All-Different Avengers. But when we were doing Secret Wars and all the lead up stuff, one of the differences between the Ultimate Universe and the Marvel Universe books is that the Ultimate books were all upper and lowercase. And so, to sort of distinguish between the two, the Ultimate characters all speak in upper and lowercase letters, and the Marvel Universe characters speak in all uppercase letters. You can see that all throughSecret Wars. Moving ahead, different books will pick what aesthetically works best for them. It’s really only significant in the context ofSecret Wars proper, and the lead up toSecret Wars.
>Nrama: Moving to something kind of tangential toSecret Wars; the day beforeSecret Wars #9hit, Marvel released a teaser that simply said “Dead No More.” So given the proximity of that teaser toSecret Wars, would it be reasonable to draw the conclusion that there’s a connection between those things?
>Brevoort: There is no connection between that teaser and Secret Wars. That’s about something about that I cannot tell you about. “Dead No More,” that’s the tease. You can speculate on what that means, but that’s notSecret Wars business. That’s a completely different thing.
>I’m gonna say this, and it’s gonna sound more obvious and more derisive than I mean it to, but we don’t do teasers after the story is done. We give them before the story comes out. And granted, things could have come out ofSecret Warsthat could be these things, but these are all teasers for all of the stuff that’s coming. There will likely be more teasers as the weeks go on.
>implying that interview was done before that All-New Wasp SJWaid FCBD story was announced
>Nrama: Continuing the thread of what’s coming afterSecret Wars–
>Brevoort:Secret Wars 2!
>Nrama: [Laughs] Wouldn’t it beSecret Wars 4at this point?
>Brevoort: We’re just gonna call itSecret Wars 1again. That’s the best number.Secret Wars 1! We’re relaunching it!
>Nrama:The Secret Wars reboot of the reboot.
>Brevoort: That’s it.
>Nrama: Jonathan Hickman and Esad Ribic turned in some serious career-making work throughoutSecret Wars.Secret Wars #9alone was gorgeous. Do they have any more upcoming projects at Marvel, together or apart, that we can look forward to in the future?
>Brevoort: Yes, although I don’t know how far in the future they’re gonna be. Jonathan’s been pretty upfront about putting a lot of his creator-owned work on hold to getSecret Warsfinished, and he needs to kind of detox and get things back into place. But we’re already talking with him about what the next thing he would do at Marvel is, and I’m confident that there will be such a thing, and it will show up probably sooner than you might expect.
>The same kind of thing is true of Esad. Esad just put the finishing touches on a massive piece of work, I think as long as a sustained project from him as he’s ever done at Marvel. He may have done more issues ofThor, but there were gaps in there that other artists did. He’s got more projects as well, including another creator-owned thing. But he too will also be in the mix here, and I figure we’ll see him sooner that Jonathan because he’ll do covers or he’ll do shorter pieces that are easier to do around the other things he’s doing.
>But again, nothing I’m ready to announce – unless they’re working on “Dead No More…” That could be the two of them right there. Or that could have nothing to do with Jonathan or Esad.
>Nrama: Now that Secret Wars has wrapped, where does Marvel go next? We’ve got Civil War II on the horizon – after that, is the Marvel event machine going to roll on, or after reviving your two biggest events ever, is there going to be kind of a step back from that world-oriented storytelling to reset the palate, or is there more in the works that will keep driving that machine forward?
>Brevoort: Again, I think we’re gonna make that determination on a rolling basis based on the response of the audience, and the response of the marketplace. The older fan who’s been through this every time says, “I’m so sick of these. When will they stop doing these?” And then they go to their shop and they buy the comic.
>What we base our storytelling decisions on and our publishing decisions on are what people do, not what they say. So, as long as we live in a world where the biggest and best selling things – and if Secret Wars proved nothing else, it proved that if you do one of these, and you do it well, people will like it, and they’ll be happy, at least for most of it. Until you’re late, and then they’re unhappy that you’re not there. But they will enjoy it just like anything else. So it’s not that events or universe-wide stories are a problem. Our audience tends to like that, tends to want that. They tend to crave stories that seem to “matter,” that have an impact on the universe.
>And the books that tend to taper off and die the fastest are the books that are just telling their stories off to the side, even if those stories are excellent, even if there are smaller coteries of fans that particularly love the flavor of those books. So we’ll continue to have events.
And yet Image books that aren't Saga/TWD can take a month long break and still won't miss a beat when the next issue finally comes out.
Mostly cause nobody gives a shit from a month to month base.
>Like you said, we’ve already announced that we’re doing Civil War II, and in Avengers, we’re doing the Standoff crossover before that, and I’m sure there will be more. How much, how often, and whether we switch more to a model where nothing big happens in the Marvel Universe, completely depends on how the audience reacts and responds.
>If those smaller books become the ones that sell and that people respond to, we’ll do more of that. We’re fairly democratic in terms of at least the broad strokes of what we do. If people like All-New Hawkeye and buy All-New Hawkeye, we’ll attempt to do more things like All-New Hawkeye. If people buy Ms. Marveland like Ms. Marvel, we’ll attempt to apply the lessons of Ms. Marvel to other things.
>And the same thing is true in the opposite. If people stop buying a certain thing, it’s gonna go away and we’re gonna try and do less of it. Again, you look at the sales charts, and the standings charts, you look at any of the end of the year charts for the last ten years, and the biggest selling books, not just from Marvel, but from both companies, are the big event books. As long as that’s the case, there are probably gonna be events.
>Hopefully Secret Wars helps to illustrate that the creativity and the commerce are not at odds with these big events. In fact, with Secret Wars, we put the commerce second to make sure that the creative was as good as it could be all the way to the end. So it’s not a one or the other thing. These two things have to work in tandem. We want to do the best stories possible with the best people possible and get them into readers’ hands in the best way possible.
>Marvel's shitting of events will never end
>The older fan who’s been through this every time says, “I’m so sick of these. When will they stop doing these?” And then they go to their shop and they buy the comic.
Sad but true.
>you’ve put the pizza back together, but some of those strange toppings are still on the pizza.
Considering the current lineup of titles, some of those strange toppings must include rusty bolts, pubic hair and dog turds.
>Reminder that /co/ claimed that rightclops would be resurrected and save the day in the end
He's using well-known examples of delays not being as memorable as the quality of the product. I don't see how that's hard to understand unless you either have a hard time understanding comparisons or desperately want to read it in the least charitable way possible.
do you not understand how subtext works? He's associating Secret Wars with TDKR and Watchmen, and by doing so implies that it is of the same caliber, even though he deflects it a bit later.
ptff, there was so many inconsistency with all the other books during his run i cant even remember half of them anymore.
I did sort of like how hickman handled the total derailment of several of his key characters though.
steve is old and powerless? fuck you Remender, he's just old, and twice as salty. every one else will gravitate to this take too, you should just quite your book mid run.
thor is hammer cucked? fuck you Aaron, he can wield the unworthy Mjolnir i came up with, and bromance hyperian.
stark becomes a big white faggot? well shit i guess i'll just write him out of it more or less.
hulk becomes doc green? fuck yOH hell ya, he's totally Illuminati material.
Nonsense. Xavier would just go on to recruit his second group of X-Men a year or so earlier than he did in 616.
For all the crap that Jemas and Quesada get, for my money, they're nowhere near as bad as Axel Alonso. He has succeeded at singlehandedly making each series bloated and boring. The fact that Brevoort has this much control speaks volume about the lack of his own.
No, he's talking about stories that are often read as a trade instead of people taking a timemachine and going back to when they were released. If you're going to give an example of a book that had delays but that people still read because delays don't matter after the issues have come out, you're not going to come up with some obscure retarded series that nobody has ever heard of.
I think you might be the first person who's ever made this point. It's a pretty novel insight, and frankly, in the 20 years I've been following discussions on the place of the X-Men in a shared universe, it's nice to hear someone saying something so fresh and new. You've really shined a light on a topic that I don't think has ever been addressed before, here. A real stroke of innovative genius!
>Of course, Gru probably would've been kicked out of Marvel by the time Quesada came around and the re-organization happened and he'd be lucky to be slumming it on C-list DC books knowing current comics.
this post hurt me more than it should.
who would think that words could hurt so much
>effect of the Terrigen Mists on mutants
nevar forget, nevar forgive Brevoort
you antagonized another two group of fans (X-fags and marvel fags), and make each other toxic. Hope you'll die in the hell you helped create
>the world believes there was some kind of cosmic incursion and Reed Richards and his family died
>the world believes there was some kind of cosmic crisis and The Flash died
it's like poetry it rhymes
Also a convenient excuse to kill off the FF and fuck Fox over.
More than that:
a)Kill off FF
b)Push Inhumans over mutants (hahaha)
c)Kill of 1610
d)Put Miles in the 616 so c) was possible
e) allow the easy inclusion of spider-gwen in 616
f) soft reboot for people too stupid to keep up with more than a single trade worth of continuity
g) excuse to rotate creative teams
Other than the really lame Inhumans push which is a complete failure Secret Wars accomplished most of it's goals in the most boring way possible.
It's stupid because they just took the actual explanation for what happened and just switched "universe" with "pizza" and "characters" with "toppings." Watch:
>The Marvel Universe is a universe and it gets blown up, and then you wind up with a universe that’s got slices from all these other different universes, all these other different pies, so it’s got all these crazy characters on it. And after Secret Wars ends, you’ve put the universe back together, but some of those strange characters are still in the universe. So Miles is kind of a character from another universe that is now part of this universe.
The reality is the comics publishing arm of Marvel is almost completely pointless at this time. Yeah they don't want to lose money but they could literally give away the content for free and it wouldn't matter because almost the entire value of the 616 is tied up in licensing and movie value.
And of that there is basically 20 characters that comprise the bedrock of Marvel's IP value. Which is why we get a "new" captain and
"new" iron man and "new" wolverine every couple of years and then we get a return of Steve, Tony and Logan almost as fast because War Machine and Falcon and X-23 don't pay the bills.
>The reality is the comics publishing arm of Marvel is almost completely pointless at this time.
It is. It really is. The scenario from the 90s returns.
The thing is, people think that Disney will throw the money away, so the publishing can exist. And the truth is, Marvel Comics have to justify its existence, not the other way.
Marvel tries to get the new readers, but what they should try to get, are the new outlets to sell the comics. LCS suck balls.
For example, Spidey. That comic would be easily sold anywhere. Drug store, grocery, newstand. Yet, it's only sold in LCS. That stupidity, will cost marvel their sub-division
I don't get why Marvel or DC don't put more stock in their trade sales. I know publishing monthlies is basically a time-honored tradition at this point, but holy fuck this shit gets ridiculous at times. Even guys like Image are better at getting that kind of stuff out on time.
The reality is that the monthly 22 page format is dead.
Comics should go to trade paperback format almost exclusively because the reality is that nobody buys single issues at anything other than LCS anymore. It's not the 70s and 80s where you had direct market comics printed on decent paper stock and mass market comics basically printed on newspaper stock.
Do 2-3 trade paperbacks a year for your major titles and float the occasional TPB for limited series focusing on lesser characters and that's basically the model that Marvel and DC need to go with.
The problem is that going to that model risks killing off the Diamond and LCS cash flow model and they aren't willing to put the nail in the coffin of LCS yet.
that's another angle to look at. you are correct
the thing is, neither mine, nor your angle is being even discussed at marvel. they have no idea on how to rebrand themselves. they take things for granted, they do not adapt, so they must die. and they will
If there is no option for monthlys everything would come in TPBs.
The core problem of course with TPBs is that Marvel in it's current state depends heavily on cross title event comics which typically last for less than 6 issues and make printing TPB collections a total pain in the ass. Civil war was about the last time they tried doing that.
Marvel going to a full TPB format would basically kill of the event comic model or force them to go with a 3 TPB per year model with 2 regular arcs and a cross title event TPB.
They will not budge, they will not change their policy, until it hits their pockets, or the ghost of closing the doors permanently visits them in their dreams. They procrastinate and artificially try to lengthen their lives before the demise, but once it crashes, the crash will be loud. And the crash is on the horizon.
Maybe they could
license the comics to DC or Valiant?
Better yet, DC buying Valiant like they bought Wildstorm? It's DC's opus moderandi.
Anyway, DC will probably survive the crash, since they don't have much to lose. Marvel? I pity them when they fall from #1 to #1,5
DC would probably do fine since they tend to always have perennial releases. And even though its not as big a draw anymore, they still have Vertigo. Fuck, I'm surprised Marvel hasn't just shut down Icon at this point.
DC arguably has more evergreen TPBs (year one, the Loeb stories, DK, Watchmen) and can easily cut back to a small number of core titles.
Seriously they can probably do 2 JLA titles and about 8-10 solo books and be completely solid forever.
Yeah it would be basically giving up market share forever but the reality is that almost their entire value is wrapped up in a small number of characters.
Because the stories need to be first published in monthlies you retard. A monthly comic means everybody involved gets paid every month and delivers material for that money on a regular schedule. OGNs take a shit ton of time to do because drawing 160 pages in one go takes a lot of time and you usually don't get paid very much during the making process, only when it's finished and delivered. Trades are just reprinting stuff and optimistically just extra revenue to supplement your income
>OGNs take a shit ton of time to do because drawing 160 pages in one go takes a lot of time and you usually don't get paid very much during the making process
So, just like floppies?
LCS owner detected.
Honestly there is absolutely no reason why the comic market needs a monthly piece work model.
It's not like pencils and ink aren't getting paid per page generally. You could easily pay creative teams based upon percentage completed like virtually ever other industry. But that would piss off LCS who typically need weekly cash flow.
>OGNs take a shit ton of time to do because drawing 160 pages in one go takes a lot of time and you usually don't get paid very much during the making process
Unless you live in Europe.
no one buys albums anymore.
/co/ has a general misunderstanding of who actually buys monthly comic books, they think everyone who buys comics values them for the story. When in reality it's just collectors going after what ever has the most buzz around it.
Teamed up with Reed to take down Doom, betrayed Reed because he didn't like that Reed was a little bitch, then MM sliced him up into pieces.
He's put himself back together, hopped on over to 616-8 and is now the main antagonist in New Avengers.
You can buy an album's worth of music for the same price as a single comic book, was the point, retard.
>When in reality it's just collectors going after what ever has the most buzz around it.
And that's fucking cancer.
monthlies pay for everything on a day to day basis, keeps the gears moving because each month you are getting that reliable steady flow of cash, trades are just extra income. if you only did trades, half the year you wouldn't make any money beyond the miniscule amount that your back catalog sells.
Yeah, that's not how it works for other businesses, such as book stores. Books USED to be released periodically by chapters and then that meme ended.
The comic book market needs to convert or die.
>>And that is definitely a thing that happened by the Molecule Man’s intent, and by his intercession as part of that process. So Miles gave him an offering and received a boon. And now, at least in Secret Wars and in All-New, All-Different Avengers, talks in all uppercase letters.
When they say "Molecule Man", do they mean "Bendis"?
>Drug store, grocery, newstand.
You know, why AREN'T comics sold on these fronts? Closest thing is Gamestop and Toyrs r Us, and one only sells variants while the other only sells exclusives.
Can you even pay for a comic subscription similar to how you would for a magazine, and have it delivered?
And another thing, why the fuck aren't the comics advertised during the previews at the movies?
Nope, since Bendis by all accounts was planning to stop writing Miles after the last issue until a Marvel retreat where editorial explained what they were doing with him.
Nice meme tho.
>Can you even pay for a comic subscription similar to how you would for a magazine, and have it delivered?
Dunno about subscription, but some sites allow it where you can set up a pull list and they'll mail you new issues as they come out.
>You know, why AREN'T comics sold on these fronts?
Because Diamond and >muh local LCS
>And another thing, why the fuck aren't the comics advertised during the previews at the movies?
DC and Marvel must believe advertising to movie goers is a waste of time and money. I'm inclined to believe that myself.
>Because Diamond and >muh local LCS
Idiot, Diamond never had anything to do with the newsstand/grocery market. Those markets use different distributors.
You want to know why there's no comics on the newsstand/grocery market? Cause those grocery markets don't think they sell well to justify the cost. That line of thinking was still around before the direct market was formed. It just got worse by the late 90's.
Comics are barely sold on the newsstand. And yes the closest are Toys R Us and Barnes and Noble (I haven't seen them at my Gamestops but I wouldn't be surprised if they have them in other locations).
The reality is that between the newsstand monthly market, the LCS monthly and TPB market, the bookstore TPB market, and the digital market, the newsstand is the weakest one. They shouldn't completely give up on it, but the other areas do far stronger in comparison or have more benefits.
People bitch about the LCS market but the reality is if you just go to newsstand only you're going to see even less titles.
Do you remember the Civil War pitch and notes for the Secret Invasion first draft? Brevoort had to correct a lot of stuff. I don't think he's against continuity, he just has to stay quiet about most fuck-ups or sidestep them because he doesn't want to upset the talent or the people who outrank him.
I wouldn't be surprised that if Quesada or Alonso were to choose between keeping Brevoort or Bendis, they'd pick Bendis.