Good evening owls of /co/,
This new logo still sucks
so reposting from late thread, this is even fucking funnier when you've read the comics it's referencing
Rich Ellis art, despite Steve Lieber's name on the cover. Sorry for the misattribution! It's hilarious work!
what the actual fucking fuck, man. who the fuck wanted THAT back???
this is just so perfect (and the plot plays out in Bru Cap, wherein it's basically "trolling Bucky for the lulz")
I can't think of a better way to embrace nostalgia for the long and storied history of DC comics, the home of some of the finest sequential art of the last century. It is truly a display of boldness to bring back such a titan of the past but now steeped in the deep, rich lore of the New 52 universe to temper it. Truly, we live in blessed times.
Also, have some discussion about long-form comics from Ron Marz's Twitter:
>Ron Marz @ronmarz Conventional wisdom: if you put out a solid book every month, you'll lose sales every month. Attrition strikes most titles. (1 of 3) There are finite retailer dollars every month. With constant events, relaunches and variants, good books get lost in the shuffle. (2 of 3) Audience has been
trained to invest in what's new/what's next, as opposed to cultivating long-term growth and long-term readers. (3 of 3)
Layman @themightylayman I've certainly learned a few things writing a 60-issue book. The biggest lesson: never again.
Joe Eisma @Supajoe after having done an Image book for six years I can say unequivocally that this is true. I won't do another long form series.
Illumibro is good stuff
they did? he was? got any links?
J. T. Krul, dude. Most famous for RISE OF ARSENAL. Complete with reheated bad 90s art as the promo.
for more retailer talk Big Bang comics did a sales analysis
and if you scroll down their twitter they go through all their first week titles, it's pretty interesting seeing what sells like hotcakes and what flops
This hurts, too
Nah, I think it was on like formspring or something. People thought Bru was turning Zemo into a mustache twirling supervillain iirc
it sucks about long form series. i don't even know how you'd combat that. Like Hellboy minis that build into a larger story? or just like 2 trades a year
I thought he had left comics!
this is also depressing
And these Marz tweets stem from one shop taking about their sales and bringing up the "there's too many books for everything to get a fair chance" problem that I've seen tossed around too. Not sure what you do about these problems.
>WONDER WOMAN #47 is now selling CATWOMAN numbers. Which used to be our lowest selling DC female character.
>Yes, that's right. Harley Quinn far outsells Wonder Woman. You think about that.
yeah, I was done with shit around the house so I started early
>People thought Bru was turning Zemo into a mustache twirling supervillain iirc
well, he kind of did--there's a later panel where he hits on Sharon and it's just 'what', but, well, you don't win them all
So what's Marvel got announced/solidly confirmed that hasn't dropped yet?
also, DC solicits tomorrow, I guess?
Captain Marvel #1 exceeded expectations, which were admittedly in the toilet, even if Aurora's name is still spelled wrong
Marvel is oversaturating the market with product, it's shit. Also the constant status quo changing events and relaunches must eventually lead to a crash where people just burn out and stop caring.
I'm glad I started reading US comics in the 90's when you could follow something like Starman through 60+ issues, or Spectre, or Sandman Mystery Theatre. Or hell, even Thunderbolts.
Truly the last great era of the American comic.
I thought my LCS's owner had an interesting response:
.>Ryan Higgins @RyanHigginsRyan .@JohnHendrick13 @flycojoe @ronmarz I'll support an ongoing 100% of the time over a mini-series. There's long-term potential.
Ryan Higgins @RyanHigginsRyan .@JohnHendrick13 @flycojoe @ronmarz Treating ongoing comics like a mini-series, always restarting, is what's losing readers.
>also, DC solicits tomorrow, I guess?
I was looking forward to them today, boo
stupid holiday that I don't even get work off for
>So what's Marvel got announced/solidly confirmed that hasn't dropped yet?
Blade, Punisher, Black Widow, I forget what's left
I can get behind that.
I am just so irritated that the Finches get to keep ruining her and her rogues. And she's probably still on it just because of her husband and because she's a woman. I think DC's well aware of how bad the reviews are and how low sales are dropping.
Yeah the art was definitely the worst part.
None of *us* were surprised that BBC's lowest seller was Red Wolf.
Hyperion, I know; Blade doesn't even have a release date. Mockingbird.
>I'm glad I started reading US comics in the 90's when you could follow something like Starman through 60+ issues, or Spectre, or Sandman Mystery Theatre. Or hell, even Thunderbolts.
now we just weep with joy when a book like that even makes it to 12 issues
There are some creators who can do what they want for a long run, but there's only like 5 of them left. And even some of them get fucked around too (see: Johns on Flash after Final Crisis).
I'm pretty shocked that Snyder and Johns have stuck to Batman and Justice League (and it's not a coincidence that those are consistently DC's top two books either I'm sure) as long as they have
Yeah, but CHEW isn't Big Two, and that's Layman's baby he's talking about there. The difficulty of getting "this is still good" reviews and sales still slowly plummeting.
So I saw Creed earlier and I'm suddenly really excited for the Black Panther movie because Creed was stellar. Ryan Coogler's direction was so goddamn good and the depth and breadth he gave an inherently populist (and unpretentious) movie was totally unexpected.
I'm not much of a Black Panther fan but I feel if Coogler can do this with what is effectively Rocky 7 he's gonna do great things with BP and a Marvel-Disney budget and backing.
I thought PAD was immune after his first run on X-Factor kept getting relaunched, but ANXF died so quickly that got quashed.
Yeah, the best books never tend to even get past the first trade. People bitch and moan over the low quality of the early Image, X-Men and other stuff in the 90's but they forget that the success of those titles and the general hype around comics drove up sales on EVERYTHING.
I forget who it was but I saw a writer complaining about sales attrition a while ago and how it shouldn't be a thing but readers and retailers have been so conditioned to look for books that matter as opposed to books that are good
What's the point of being a writer if your artist is just gonna tell you what to do? The whole point is a collaboration, not just nodding your head at the artist telling you what to write because of what he wants to draw.
Really this woman needs a co writer if she wants to keep writing and her husband is a shitty writer himself.
And please read Wonder Woman god. I'd have Johns over her since he's actually READ some Wondy now.
It's pretty rare across any medium that that doesn't happen. Sequel books tend to sell less, sequel seasons tend to get less viewers, sequel films tend to make less money. There are some aberrations like Game of Thrones but those are all treated as devastating successes.
Plants: fucking cool
Close, I think
I am hoping against hope that we still get MCU Bolts, because I want a book again, but I'm terrified of the monkey's paw
I think Snyder is firmly Johns-tier in that the editors don't really want to upset him.
Snyder has said he has ideas for other batvillains and he's still getting good reviews, feedback, and sales. So I think DC will want to keep him as happy as possible.
And I think they're gonna start doing that to King too.
That's usually true with books too, you're right. Ahh, the pain of the series that got dropped by the publisher...at least sometimes people have enough fanbase to Kickstart them, now, and you can't do that with Big Two IP.
I agree with this fuck you Slott
>And I think they're gonna start doing that to King too.
I really fucking hope so
It was nice to hear that he was on the phone with Johns and Snyder about stuff
I want him on GL so bad it hurts
>dark European beer sucks
ANXF was so dismaying because PAD books tend to stabilize at a low but VERY stable place.
>Fuck you, Slott
It occurred to me that both former supervillain girlfriends who dreamed of joining the Avengers when I started on comics have been fucked over now.
>Black Cat turns evil after a literal retard plot twist
>Diamondback becomes a stripper and then a villain again because her fiance dies of cancer
Thanks comics for keeping my belief in reform and betterment alive. I guess I should be happy Songbird isn't Screaming Mim and a serial killer by now.
Rocky?I think technically there are just some great moments in the film you cannot fault, and when it comes to personal inclinations there's a real grab bag of stuff to appeal to different folks.
I'm not one for all this #OscarsSoWhite shit but after seeing the movie there is no real reason Coogler doesn't have a Best Director nom. A nomination for Best Editing wouldn't be undeserved either although Mad Max feels like a shoe-in there.
While i have seen all the rocky movies prior to this i curious to know wether Creed works as a standalone - could someone new to the rocky franchise watch this this with needing to know the backstory.
Spencer isn't terrible, so i'm still hoping that the diamondback thing is temporary.
but yeah, we need more villains turning good permanently. And not just the waifu villains too.
Because DC doesn't care about Wonder Woman. It's really the only way this makes any sense. Although one would think that they'd put a writer who gives a shit on every book to increase the chances of good quality. But fuck common sense, I guess.
>I'd have Johns over her since he's actually READ some Wondy now.
Johns Wondy would be a glorious cascade of references. Say what you will about the guy, he;d at least give a shit about a character's supporting cast.
I think the film probably has more emotional impact if you're a Rocky fan but it absolutely works as a standalone. Everything you need to know from Rocky is given to you in the new movie itself.
I hope so. I was going to bring up Constrictor, but I realized that it's far more likely he can stay dead and having died a good guy than stay alive and be backslid by some future assclown.
she wants that Clint booty
A-Force has no hook whatsoever other than "girl book", and that's not enough, even for very lady-centric buyers.
>not just the waifu villains too
>Because DC doesn't care about Wonder Woman
They care enough to give her a bunch of new shit right before her movie appearances
But yeah they probably care a bit more about appeasing an A list artist and having a woman write it.
>however to most "Sexy" means physical attractiveness, which shouldn't register as a top quality of Wonder Woman
How to square this with BEAUTY OF APHRODITE, tho, you know?
>A-force is probably going to plummet without Bennett or GWW on it
So why did they drop it?
Do they just have other projects? Because I know Bennett is writing a digital weekly which is a lot of work.
I really understand what DeLiz is going after--there's a long tradition of equating beauty and moral goodness that's really not either true or healthy--but how to pull at that in comics is hard.
Captain Marvel was IMO about as good as you can hope for a #1 that isn't totally out there, like Vision for instance. Established half-a-dozen characters with differing relationships quickly, action sequence, good character moment, mystery hook. It wasn't perfect but it was competent and I'm getting more hopeful.
There we go, Justine Hammer is who Dallas was drawing, the Crimson Cowl
I am so happy to see Puck in a book that's not by Humphries
Just don't kill Alpha Flight, F&B
some twitterers with differing opinions on Harley Quinn
>but hey why read a harley quinn comic when i can get bullshit sermonizing from bkv about girls shrieking homophobic slurs, right?
is about Paper Girls? I haven't read that yet
I would love if more women wrote for the main book. But I'm afraid I must insist that said women are actually good writers. And that they actually care.
>How to square this with BEAUTY OF APHRODITE, tho, you know?
That almost never comes up though. And you can't really tell stories about how attractive someone is without falling into the "so beautiful it's a curse" thing.
I believe I read that Busiek had no real plan for who the Cowl would really be, and thus it was all left up to FabNi. Justin Hammer only died recently in the Iron Man comics when this story happened, so it kinda makes sense.
Oh also Harrier/Cardinal is a character from Nicieza's New Warriors. That's why he's here.
Apparently the word 'faggot' is used in the first issue, and some people got extremely upset about that
EH reads Harley as a queer, feminist, anti-capitalist hero and I'm not reading the book so I can't say, but...
>a long tradition of equating beauty and moral goodness
I know Eisner talked about always making good characters look good and bad characters look bad because in a short form medium like comics common symbols were important to telling the story.
my snark and dismay has nothing to do with Harley and everything to do with Palmiotti
also that Paper Girls shot makes no sense
my problem is i don't like the style! but i'm finally getting Ostrander collections so i'm satisfied
That's only a teaser pic, along with Death's Head II--I'm thinking of things with both writing and art announced
>Apparently the word 'faggot' is used in the first issue, and some people got extremely upset about that
oh, was that another case like the "transphobia" in Airboy?
Equating physical ugliness with moral ugliness is such an old storytelling technique that I don't think you'll ever really get rid of it. And some genres like horror gleefully embrace it - and the inversion of it ofc.
I'm sure much cleverer people than me have written about how you focus on beauty only as a positive or how you disassociate beauty from envy, but it does seem pretty difficult.
I don't understand the second link's sentiment. Unless you're a characterfag who buys everything, does it matter? They don't even seem to crossover so it's not like DC is forcing you to spend more money. Harley's not a character I care about, but I see nothing wrong with what they're doing. They need books that are guaranteed to sell.
Hi storytime thread!
Whoever bought me Superman For All Seasons for the Secret Santa thread, good news! It wasn't one of the packages that I thought got stolen! Came in the mail this afternoon.
One of my favorite Superman comics. It's comfy as fuck.
>Apparently the word 'faggot' is used in the first issue, and some people got extremely upset about that
And they're not wrong to. We abuse the word 'faggot' here on 4chan so much, that it has become an insult, a term of affection, and even a casual honorific. But in fiction and real life, it's still an extremely hateful word.
>EH reads Harley as a queer, feminist, anti-capitalist hero
How anyone ever latched onto Harley Quinn as some kind of role model, I'll never know.
They are, but beauty=good is a pernicious idea.
Verdi's Rigoletto is so effective in part because the Duke of Mantua is cast as decent-looking as you can, and he has gorgeous music that even you n00bs have heard before** and he's a complete monster.
Yeah Harley's books aren't even crossing over with anything.
They're just there and if they prop up things I do like
Middy ;_;then I'm okay with it.
Anyway she's pretty different in New Suicide Squad and her solos.
Right, but the getting upset about it was the simple fact that it was in the book at all, regardless of whether the character using it was meant to be portrayed as hateful, etc. (I did not read the book)
>How anyone ever latched onto Harley Quinn as some kind of role model, I'll never know.
I've seen people use things from the Injustice comics like her helping Canary with her newborn or beating up Lobo for touching her
>How anyone ever latched onto Harley Quinn as some kind of role model, I'll never know.
I kind of get it, I mean she's a character who managed to get away from an abusive relationship that changed her forever.
Then there's everything else about her
Image's Podcast posted some panels and one had BKV and Chiang on it and BKV actually talked about debating over using the term and how he really struggled about it before deciding on it.
I get it, look at how people hate/snark/joke on Wolverine nowadays despite the dude having a lot of great stories about him
it's the ruined by popularity thinking
it was a 14 year old girl using it as an insult and she got chastised for it by another character. also the book is set in the 80s
I think there are different ways to do beauty beyond attractiveness. You can keep the Eisner idea if you have art that can show beautiful, but not necessarily attractive, people.
Artists with range on their women help a LOT, too.
>Then there's everything else about her
Seriously. It's well and good that she got out of an abusive relationship so she can be her own woman, but the problem is that said woman is a murderous psychopath.
>citing non-canon alternate realities
Yeah, here's what EH is getting out of Harley's solo:
YMMV; anyone here reading it?
There used to be an old test Marvel would do when aspiring artists came up to editors at conventions. They would ask them to draw children and elderly people. I'm sure a lot of people failed
Helmut, you ray of sunshine
Also this thread gives her read: https://twitter.com/EmmaHouxbois/status/621754260041166848
Ringo could draw Franklin and Val well, a task most other FF artists have failed at
It's very glowing, but I'm not sure how much of that is grounded, how much is reasonable extrapolation, and how much is Phantasie
he has the BEST hands on hips poses.
>so like if you want me to buy into this corporate vs creator jazz, show me something. give me queer female leads or shut up.
I mean i know no one is reading Angela but still
also she has an ok point w/ the thing about sex being very hetero male oriented and that's another problem that more diversity in creators/editors/etc would help
>it was a 14 year old girl using it as an insult and she got chastised for it by another character. also the book is set in the 80s
I just shake my head at the idea of people complaining about this kind of thing. Just makes me think of how sanitized something like the Color of Friendship would be if they took out the slurs. When the word exists in a piece to highlight to the audience that it's bad, why are you complaining?
I mean to run New Mutants some time, I've read like zero of it
that first panel is OH EXPLOITABLE
Oof, yeah it seems most artists can draw one kind of man and one kind of woman. If you're fat, old, or too young, then you'll look off the entire time since it's clear the artist is struggling and not used to it.
And I know /co/ thinks Jim Lee is really generic, which he is half the time, but how he drew Dick and Barbara in ASBAR reminds me what a good artist he can be when he tries. Like Dick and Barbara weren't just naked with clothes painted on like his men and women are. He actually had to draw clothing! And age appropriate faces and body proportions!
>Matt SantoriGriffith @FotoCub 6h6 hours ago OOOO. #Spoilers Tomorrow is a BIG DAY for Black Alice in Secret Six #11.
I'll say first I am probably not even gonna be a reader of that site but am I a real bad person for laughing at the long, detailed explanation of how Harley Quinn's description of queerness is empowering in the review and the two comments being 'I wish she was blonde again' and 'I wish she was with Joker again'?
Because Simone loves her
The only time I liked her was the Ostrander Blackest Night arc, he got that "annoying teenie" thing done well
also, Waller knocked her out
Black Alice arc is why I haven't cared to catch up on S6
I can't resist a chance to see all my favorite spooky magic-based characters again, even if fucking Black Alice are making them the antagonists of the story arc.
I mean for fuck's sake Phil, can't you call in a God Dog favor here?
No, I found it funny too.
I'm still surprised that there are unironic Joker/Harley shippers.
It never really worked in the normal DCU as well as it did in DCAU tbqh
That and the delays were really bad
>And honestly, I'd argue that DC's most prominent queer character being a childish psychopath isn't remotely empowering. Rather the opposite in fact.
Their other two prominent queer characters are an adultish psychopath and a wizard who makes everyone around him miserable, I actually think it's nice that DC's gays aren't boring and bland and watered down even if Harley Quinn
>No, I found it funny too.
Well we could both be horrible people. And I also did chuckle at both of the preview reviews being 'WHO IS LEGITIMATELY QUEER IN SQUIRREL GIRL' and 'THE X-MEN NEED TO TACKLE MORE REAL SOCIAL ISSUES'.
I don't really get where this idea comics are the vanguard of cutting edge social justice comes from. It's nice to push boundaries but it's also okay to have a comic that isn't about anything in the real world.
I don't mind HarleyxJoker though, damaged couples are pretty fun.
It kind of reminds me of Waypool era
who the fuck wanted Deadpool Corps?
Fixer, you diiick
I miss him too
Midnighter/Constantine hook-up crossover when? Morning after where hungover Constantine wakes up and immediately has to throw up then Midnighter wakes up, looks at the vomiting naked Constantine and almost has to throw up himself in disgust when?
>Have they actually shown gay Harley in a book? Or just the comments from the writers about her and Ivy being non-monogamous ?
They've shown some pretty risque stuff with her and Ivy and I think Palmiotti said during a fan Q&A session on twitter that he considers them to be in an open relationship but I dunno if the book itself ever says that
...so how pretty would Helmut be in a wig and a dress
You know for a while I honestly wondered if this Atlas Does Dallas bodyswap was building to a relationship with Man-Killer but I guess not. Big Orange is looking a lot more butch now though.
>Prominent DC lgbt characters
Batwoman, Midnighter, Harley, Poison Ivy, Constantine, Catwoman (?), Catman
Yeah Apollo, Bunker, Catwoman are probably the most normal of the bunch who show up with any regularity.
If Batwoman weren't the self destructive loner Batman wishes he were then she'd be that too.
This discussion makes me think of this: http://comicsalliance.com/female-heroes-good-girl-role-models/
And they do mention Harley specifically:
>I believe Harley Quinn’s popularity with women springs from a similar place: she’s a character. She’s goofy and tragic and full of story potential. Her heart is bruised and patched and too big to manage, but she simply cannot shelve it away. It’s ugly. It’s melodramatic. And there’s no character I hear women cite more often as their favorite.
Which makes the "Harley is a great role model" stuff much stranger since the appeal for some seems to be that she isn't a cookie-cutter character that you're meant to emulate.
>Harley is a great role model
I think that's maybe bc she got away from the Joker? I dunno
I'm so hype for Todd Ziller America Kaiju I didn't even notice we're getting some To, rad
two Moonstones Karla
surely nothing will go wrong with THIS
We will get to explore the bullshit of extra Moonstones in some detail, I believe
In fact, someone else carries them around for a while, too :D
Fixer is...you almost appreciate his honesty that he's looking at your tits and not pretending not to, but you're still not gonna bang him
goddammit someone retweeted my "Why is Dr. Maru Aryan Princess?" question AT a Finch
that's right, she uses Darkforce powers for sex.
I grew up with Pokemon and it's been a hard habit to break, quite honestly. Seeing my sixth grade students read Pokemon manga and still pass around the trading cards is pretty funny those. (the TCGs were fucking currency at my elementary school when it starting getting big)
>that's right, she uses Darkforce powers for sex.
Right, I am not going to bitch directly at a creator, I learned my lesson there
that's me, but I did not tweet at a Finch, I responded to the post about the WW preview
also, unfollowed that dude
I tag creators when I have a question or a compliment, mostly
Man is that even unexpected? I think we have very different views on what's likely to happen on twitter.
If you want to stop your shit going anywhere, lock it. Otherwise it's totally fair game.
That is true. And, well, it won't happen again, and maybe it'll get an answer and no harm done.
Twitter could easily institute levels of content access and chooses not to for drama purposes, I'm pretty sure.
>Twitter could easily institute levels of content access and chooses not to for drama purposes, I'm pretty sure.
Twitter could do a lot of things, but I'm pretty convinced that they don't do shit to actually uphold some of their own content standards as it is so why bother asking more of them.
There was a Marvel junior editor, I forget who, who recently tweeted about unfollowing a young dude she was considering putting forward for Marvel comics work for bad netiquette, like throwing a tantrum on tumblr or something.
And I thought 'isn't tweeting about this really bad netiquette' but also it just made me think in general about how private our IRL public interactions can be (even negative ones, even unintentionally negative ones) and how totally not private almost everything online is. I actually think the backlash is worse online than to a fuck-up IRL as well.
Long live anonymity I guess.
>I actually think the backlash is worse online than to a fuck-up IRL as well.
More people see it faster, online fuckups lack the nuance that even RL fuckups can have
Anonymity is useful
not in the file, not sure if it's missing or just a number-skip by the compiler.
Maybe not unexpected but generally against twitter etiquette I'd say. Hopefully Finch will realize that it's the publication that brought it to her and won't get too upset.
If it was someone sensitive like Slott storytimer would already be blocked to be honest.
There was some academic thing lately that claimed we are now a victim culture rather than an honour or shame culture. I pretty much threw it out but it's true that victimisation and aggressively responding to perceived victimisation is such a huge thing online.
I talked some shit about some other comic podcaster's best of list and apparently they were a fan or something.
Which is funny cause I did it with warning the other podcaster.
Well, shit. the cbr isn't corrupted/fussing at me, so it's just plain not there. Sorry!
I guess I just don't see it. It's like, your posted pubic opinion. If the creator sees and reacts to that how is it invalid?
Like if Finch did block storyteller and storyteller somehow passed a message to Finch asking them to reverse it, what would that say? I'm being super confrontational here so no need to answer if you don't wanna.
How about one more and then our bunker-busting Last Five Issues tomorrow?
This just makes me think of "No, Warren, you can't blow up Beijing. ...Moscow is fine."
shit, how are you owls tonight?
it's supposed to be back up in the 70s here soon so I can stop putting off this garden job
The nuance for me is that I don't think the creator seeing it is the issue; that's normal expected risk since creators know there will be negative comments about themselves online and they have to look around to gauge interest in themselves and their work. But once they get tagged in it can feel like they're being attacked and then they might react to that when it was never the original intention of the first tweet. That can be smoothed even within the 140 characters but you just never know how things might go.
I guess my point is mostly that someone running the social media account of a publication needs to be aware of this phenomenon and ideally avoid throwing their readers under the bus. But apparently they just don't give a fuck, I don't know.
This is so many reaction faces, I love it
winter here is this can-be-70, can-be-30, who knows? sort of thing
Last year when I was still back in the mountains it was in the teens-twenties for most of January and February. This is a cakewalk in comparison, and is supposed to get back up to the mid-forties later this week.
Helmut, you cheerful chauvinist. Even Parisians are people.
I don't do winter anymore, my coats are in storage
surely this will end well!
thanks for reading, LAST FIVE ISSUES (for now) tomorrow!
Well yeah, but why is CONSTANTINE puking? I only read Hellblazer, so I don't know his tastes in guys except for that guy in the Azarrelo run who's basically Batman without the crime fighting and the costume.
Basically, we hit #75, we Threeboot, then we decide when and we hit Avengers/Thunderbolts and New Thunderbolts, which runs 1-18 and then legacy numbering 100-109, 110 is Ellisbolts.
Have you ever been blackout drunk? the aftermath is usually unpleasant
The character/concept. It was ages ago and I don't know if she's changed her mind but I still think about it.
>Diana is never just Diana. She’s the paragon of femininity, and almost without fail held up to be the Platonic Ideal of Woman in the iconic structure of the DCU. Which not only essentializes women, but nullifies any hope of ever convincingly forwarding the notion that there is no wrong way to be a woman (within the suffocatingly white DCU). It becomes Animal Farm. There’s no wrong way to be a woman, but there’s no better way to be one than this one! This is actually literally the message that Wonder Woman as she’s presented sends. Hence her legendary popularity among second wave feminists.
Someone like Black Canary doesn't explicitly represent women the way Wonder Woman does. I've never seen a comic where every female hero in the DCU teams up and fangirls over how so like iconic and empowered Dinah is and how happy they are to be in her presence.
I'm not sure if it's possible for her to be just Diana. It didn't just happen by accident. She was created as propaganda for Marston's ideal woman. Add 75 years of her being the only woman allowed to stand next to DC's most popular male heroes, and it's pretty intractable.
I can agree with this statement but I think there are arguments for keeping her around within it:
>I'm not sure if it's possible for her to be just Diana. It didn't just happen by accident.
True but WW of today is not WW of 40 years ago and will not be WW of 40 years hence.
>She was created as propaganda for Marston's ideal woman. Add 75 years of her being the only woman allowed to stand next to DC's most popular male heroes, and it's pretty intractable.
Is this stuff interpretable in only one way? I think you can review and explore a character's background in new ways even when they have a background like this.
I think as such an iconic character it's important to have Diana be a good character I'd agree this kind of platonic one way of woman is not great. But I don't think it's a reason to abandon the character; in part because it's much harder to establish a new character to a similar level of recognition and in part (and with bias) because even if I don't like WW stories that much I really like her origin, supporting cast, etc. and want to see her keep getting stories.
They could never get rid of her. She'll always be valuable as a bland symbol of girl power to put on t-shirts, and she'll always be there in the comics as an ever shifting morass of weird gender politics and mostly bad writing.
I like a lot of "alternative" takes on Wonder Woman. I liked most of Azzarello's run. I liked when Johns wrote her as Big Barda, because Big Barda is a good character.