So, let me see if I got the gist of what the big deal is with Carol Danvers.
For a while, Carol was a sadistic, violent asshole with a drinking problem and right-wing sensitivities. Despite/because of this, she wasn't very beloved by pretty much anyone, as these characteristics made her prone to fucking up everything she was involved in.
Later on, her solo book was taken by someone named Kelly Sue DeConnick (the mythical "KSD"), who wiped Carol's memory (again) and basically turned her into a completely different individual. This time around, Carol is a Mary Sue-ish flying brick who can't do no wrong, wearing a dyke haircut and a pretty lame costume compared to the black leotard.
This version of the character is the one being heavily shilled by Marvel for CIVIL WAR TWO and the upcoming solo movie. A feminist role model for the Tumblr/Jezebel/The Mary Sue/Buzzfeed audience. And utterly boring in comparison to the old incarnation.
Did I get it right?
you dumb, you think those people actually buy the book or read it?
The carol corps are people that dont even read the book, they literally had huge arguments about how you didnt need to read comics to be a super hero fan.
She has a lot of potential. She's bloodthirsty, but aware of and upset by this, so she doesn't trust her own judgement and defers to others to make decisions for her.
It it wasn't being written by Bendis I'd think her role in CW2 was a return to form.
>they literally had huge arguments about how you didnt need to read comics to be a super hero fan.
In a sense, it's true. Marvel is making billions with the movies. If they decided to stop making comics altogether tomorrow, their bottom line wouldn't even suffer a dent.
>She has a lot of potential. She's bloodthirsty, but aware of and upset by this, so she doesn't trust her own judgement and defers to others to make decisions for her.
I can smell the Tumbler Twats making a fit out of this... if they actually read comics, that is. After the Black Widow shitstorm last year, it's impossible that Marvel would do such a thing for her onscreen appearances.
>It it wasn't being written by Bendis I'd think her role in CW2 was a return to form.
The Human Meatball is anathema to good writing, we all know that.
Her original push started back before KSD since Marvel's prominent heroines are either team associated or their media licenses are held by other companies and they realized they could bank on a female-led MCU film after the reactions to IM2. The character herself has been shilled heavily by Marvel for a few years now.
Also despite what /co/ says, sadistic, violent, right-wing asshole with an alcohol problem isn't exactly what she was. She was a fairly unaccomplished superhero with a temper who later descended into, not entirely undeserved, self-pitying alcoholism.
>She was a fairly unaccomplished superhero
Yeah, I forgot that one. For the longest time, Carol was a B-lister compared to the headliners in the Avengers and X-Men. As you well said, Marvel decided to reinvent her (and, as a consequence, erase everything that made Carol interesting) in order to attract the easily-herded "millennial" audience with a Feminist Super-Heroine.
She also WANTED to be a bigger name hero, but even when she worked at it she was never able to accomplish it
so it's even more annoying that she became a widely beloved and celebrated hero off panel when KSD's run began
>you didnt need to read comics to be a super hero fan.
Since 1989 there have been eight theatrically released Batman films, 26 other films featuring Batman, 8 cartoons series featuring Batman, and at least 35 video games featuring Batman.
Even beyond alternate media, there is nothing wrong with being a fan of a character's design, history, powers, or anything else besides their comic. Because there are plenty of good characters with shitty comics.
Carol was a feminist superheroine from the beginning, explicitly a women's lib type character at her inception. Honestly, Carol spent her career in roughly the same place as Hawkeye, but no one complains about how Marvel changed his personality in his solo book.
That's easily explained as her PR team doing a good job combined with a higher profile following Civil War.
>no one complains about how Marvel changed his personality in his solo book.
You don't know the Hawkeye fans I do. Many of them also have a hateboner for Fraction's IIM.
I wish there'd even been a hint of that PR team in the comic, then.
you only got a third of it.
>Starts out as Lois Lane to Captain Marvel
>Ends up getting powers and amnesia from Accident Involving Cap Marvel.
>Tries to work as a civilian, but she gets Narcolepsy and the Ms Marvel Personality takes over whenever she passes out.
>Ends up having a mindfuck to bring both personalities together, which pretty much makes her a disturbed and angry individual.
>Captain Marvel Dies, leaving her an emotional wreck.
>She fixes herself just in time to be mind controlled and raped by her inter dimensional baby.
>Spends years being used as sex toy
>Comes back and Avengers just shrug it off
>Overcomes this and but keeps rough edges.and lots and lots of the issues
>Has to learn to control her powers going out of control
>Gets comatose by Rogue absorbing her powers
>Comes back from that and becomes raging right wing alcoholic that is just trying to do the right thing.
>Has a broken relationship with Wonderman
>Has her Identity stolen by one of her main villains
>Gets mindfucked by baby modocks
>Gets semi raped by Brood
Its a whole lot of rape and mindfuckery that shes suffered, only for KSD to come along and just mindwipe her again, just because she doesnt want to deal with all the backstory.
And this is supposed to make her an EMPOWERED Female.
Erasing all the shit she went through by doing exactly what most people did to her, is somehow PROGRESSIVE!
>That's easily explained as her PR team doing a good job combined with a higher profile following Civil War.
oh I know you can handwave it away easily, but it did her character a major disservice by accomplishing one of her main goals off panel without showing her having to do anything to earn it
the mindwipe was a disservice too, to be sure
Not that guy, but HAHAHA! Disney could shutter Marvel comics tomorrow if they wanted and it wouldn't affect a thing. The only thing that matters is they retain the character rights.
You left out the shit with the X-Men and the space stuff.
Should have kept the PR team around. Most everyone seems to be ignoring the mindwipe, as it was mostly unneeded and could have been replaced by a therapist character.
The mouse is pulling the strings. The second it realizes that Marvel Comics operates at a loss, they'll shut it down for good and just milk the characters via movies, cartoons and mobile games. Disney is a business, not a charity. They must hold themselves accountable to their shareholders, not a small gaggle of worthless fanboys, whose sophomoric whims do not translate into profit.
Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes had a way better cleaned up representation of Carol they could have used for the movie instead of just mind wiping her and having her be boring as fuck.
Jessica Jones isn't the same though. Jessica was at worst a functional alcoholic who could get her shit together when needed, Carol was a full-on blubbering blackout drunk. What makes for an interesting character doesn't necessarily make for an entertaining character, much less an endearing one. With Jessica there was that relateability, she went through a traumatic experience, isn't coping with it well, but still manages a semblance of a life and moving forward. With Carol it becomes hard to care when she's on her third mindwipe and second rape and all she's doing is being a complete failure and drinking until she passes out.
Well, Marvel isn't operating at a loss. But yes, all it would take would be for another catastrophe to befall Marvel and Disney would basically shutter the comic side and just use the character IP portfolio to keep Marvel alive in name only through movies, cartoons and toys. Publishing anything, from newspapers to magazines to comics is in a pretty difficult place right now.
It's unlikely that they'd completely shutter Marvel Comics, they'd more than likely just switch entirely to digital and downsize.
Her current status quo is that she's the big time female superhero and that's about it. Also she has a cat and more than likely can't remember her mother and brother.
Just make her the girlfriend of Peter Parker, or let peter fuck her, and we fix everything. Yes, everything.
One of my introductions to the character was the Civil War issue where she lets the registration rip a little girl out of her mother's arms as they take the mother to superjail. I will never not hate the character. It was just too fucking disgusting.
It always comes down to the leotard with you idiots. You try to come off analyzing the character, but always have to bring up how much you prefer the leotard.
Every other Captain Marvel costume is better than the 'tard. Kamala's costume is better than the 'tard.
Bring back hateful Carol, that could be cool, but fuck this fixation on the leotard. Mar Vell is dead, and Monica isn't using the "Captain Marvel" label, Carol has no need to be Ms Marvel, or to wear the Ms Marvel costume, anymore.
By all means, let the leotard influence variations in her costume, but don't delude yourself that it actually matters on its own.
Marvel really sucks at writing their own characters. The whole company needs to be purged and a strict authoritarian editor like Shooter needs to be put in place that makes everyone actually treat their writing like it's a craft to be worked upon
It would just take some creative writers that know how to utilize the concept of Janet better. Batman doesn't have to have the highest power level to be as prominent as he is. Other than Wasp, Crystal would be a good fit for the role I think
>raped by her inter dimensional baby
Tell me more, anon.
I really hope this is one of the Captain Marvel movie sequels.
Next up is the annual claremont
try to undo the damage
In his very first appearance he teams up with Black Widow to take on Iron Man because he cannot stop thinking with his dick.
Clint has ALWAYS been like he was in Fraction's run, Fraction just focuses on screw up aspect more than the cocky bastard one.
Hawkeye used to be this man who felt deeply insecure about his status among his colleagues due to his limited abilities, abd because of this strove to great lengths to prove his skills worthy of the Avengers, pulling off insane trickshots in crucial moments, making his character deeply satisfying to experience.
He was always the guy that would challenge Captain America for leadership of the team. Everyone knew he had the potential, but he was too irresponsible in his early years to live up to it, until West Coast Avengers where he came into his own
don't be retarded anon. none of that shit they got rid of made her interesting, it made her unmarketable which is why she was never a remotely popular character. Shoving all that crap under the rug was Marvel's only move if they want to try to create a successful version of the character
Thanks for the storytime, weird as it was.
In a better world, the right characters would be pushed into the spotlight naturally, instead of the wrong characters to keep up appearances.
All I actually know about here is that she got punked by Rogue back when Rogue was still a terrorist and for whatever reason the mutant held on to her powers for way longer than normal and went on to be more famous than Danvers ever was. Was the mind wipe you talk about related to that?
You know, all this shit could make for a supervillan origin story...
would /co/ read an evil carol?
sjws didnt like BW to be "damaged", and quickly shat on Whedon, hilarious because the faggot had been spewing anti GG shit for months on end.
Storm, rouge, psylocke can easliy take that wonder woman role, it was such a same they had to be sold off to fox.
Psylocke is literally a british black widow with powers.
Even Scarlet Witch can take the wonder woman role with a magical twist. I don't get why she was made to be a gothic lolita trash. I feel like she should be a lot more older
A writer ignoring it is one thing, the readers know it happened to the character, they got through it, and grew as a result. Shit, people like Daredevil and Spider-Man, and their entire lives are horrible tragedy interspliced with punching people in the face.
What KSD did was decide that all of that was bad, and wipe it from her memory. But it still all happened, she just didn't grow from it.
She has a baby who ages in a day and takes her to his dimension to mind and physically rape her
Anon, it's not the leotard, so much as what it represents. No shitposting, I'm being serious.
Look up a picture of Mar-Vell's costume, and then look at Carol's original picture (pic-related). She has the same color scheme as him, and even the same symbol. She might as well me Marvel Girl.
Then there's the Black costume. Different color scheme, and she has her own, completly seperate symbol, the lightning bolt. That last part is important to this argument, as it really does sell the idea that she's her own person, especially during the Busiek Avengers run where she was called Warbird
(speaking of, why DID she go back to Ms. Marvel?)
Come back to the Captain Marvel costume, and she's almost literally wearing a slight alteration of Mar-Vell's costume, with seemingly nobody seeing the irony.
And before you blame just T&A, look at the original costume again. That thing shows even more skin, and I don't think anybody likes this thing.
>(speaking of, why DID she go back to Ms. Marvel?)
Honestly Warbird was too fucking OP, she was shooting Planet Shattering blasts and tanking hits from Cosmic Entities
She only Transforms into Warbird when shes absorbed enough Cosmic Energy, its starts a reaction and she starts generating endless energy within, like a Sun, aside from increasing her physical traits to ridiculous levels, she also starts being able to absorb just about any type of energy directed at her and using that to power up even more.
Oh crud yeah, sorry for the sudden lapse.
She can absorb energy even as Ms. Marvel, she just doesn't do it often in the books. Only reason I know it is because in Earth's Mightiest Heroes she does it a lot, and because one of the first comic series I read was Bendis's New Avengers, where at the end she absorbed Count Nefaria's Ionic Blast and fired it back at it, while quipping "No one remembers I can do that."
>and because of this strove to great lengths to prove his skills worthy of the Avengers
And people say Bendis ignores characterisation! Fufufu~
Mar-Vell died after the baby rape & coma. She was in space as Binary for it and was one of the only characters not present at his death bed. Had to have the bombdropped on her when she got back.
If anything those details make it WORSE.
S'why I like her desu. She's gone through a lot of shit and is still here. I want to see her succeed.
Civil War 2 out this May! *Badumtish*
>Mar-Vell died after the baby rape & coma. She was in space as Binary for it and was one of the only characters not present at his death bed. Had to have the bombdropped on her when she got back.
>If anything those details make it WORSE.
I saw someone post the page where that occured, but I have no idea where the issue was. Said page also had Carol make an "All New All Different" reference, so I have no idea why Marvel is still using that phrase when they made fun of it 30 years ago.
>sets up Kang as a Phase-ending Avengers villain
Also, people who don't read comics think it's progressive that Captain Marvel, who used to be a man is now a woman (a blue-eyed blonde rape victim and former alcoholic). Even though we had a strong black woman who was leader of the Avengers and a Lesbian before.
>Marvel Super Heroes v1 #12-13 and Captain Marvel v1 #1-18 (although if you get bored of it skip to #18)
>Ms. Marvel v1 #1-23
>The Avengers issues in this thread
>Uncanny X-Men v1 #162-167
>Marvel Super-Heroes v2 #10-11 (aka Ms Marvel #24-25)
>Space Jammers I guess? Haven't read.
>Avengers v3, haven't read
>House of M maybe, haven't read
>Ms Marvel v2
And desu KSD's 1st run, since it's before the mindwipe and throws back to a lot of this history.
She sucks as her own thing though. Only salvageable when she has the Captain Marvel legacy to fall back on. And I say that as a a fan.
Teebeehaitch that's a large part of why Marvel chose her, and still would above Storm, Rogue, Sue etc.. She represents an entire band name on her own.
>but I have no idea where the issue was
I think it was a Marvel Fanfare issue. It was a backing story at any rate.
Don't think I saved that page, but speaking of shit in that issue that's relevant today this panels from it.
Carol's the more relevant in the comics pham, even before her big push. Plus she predates both of them.
Also FUCK Moncia as a Captain Marvel, she got that name from a drunk hobo and wasn't even familiar with Mar-Vell.
>For a while, Carol was a sadistic, violent asshole with a drinking problem and right-wing sensitivities. Despite/because of this, she wasn't very beloved by pretty much anyone, as these characteristics made her prone to fucking up everything she was involved in.
That was the era when she was written by Mark Millar and Bendis. Nobody wants to go back to that.
Anon, Busiek was the one who wrote her with a drinking problem. Her violent and sadistic tendencies came from Reed's run, although the sadism mostly came up when she was killing Skrulls.
Why is it that I find Rogue so interesting but can't seem to give a fuck about Carol no matter what they do with her? The character just seems so lackluster. If they made the Cap Marvel character in the the movie Rouge but just called her Carol l think I'd be OK with that to be perfectly honest because I don't think I could watch a whole staring any of the official Carols.
Actually, that might be good, as it's quite possible Disney would let other countries make their own Marvel stories, the same way they do with Disney comics.
And we all know Italian Disney Comics are the best.
I just miss the time when all villains called her fat for no reason. That was hilarious. I really wanted to see her flip her shit over that at some point.
That said, old Carol basically seems like a female Rick
>"Come onUURP guys we gotta... blarp, we gotta fight some fuckin Skrulls guys"
Drunk Whore Carol was the best. 10/10 would date and help her with her alcohol issues.
The real problem was that she'd often get drunk then crash cars.
Crystal is hilarious, in that her power is literally being everyone's waifu.
You think I'm joking? She's married Ronan, had a kid with Quicksilver, was Johnny Storm's old flame, and she also was the Sentry's girlfriend. She's easily the most attractive Inhuman (Though I like Medusa), and her powers are also the least body-altering. Her 'control the elements' thing basically makes her magical girlfriend.
>and she also was the Sentry's girlfriend
Only because Sentry took one look at her and retroactively wanted her to have been his girlfriend.
...So yeah that bolsters your point, she's very desirable.
>Though I like Medusa
With dick in hand.
>Captcha: WOOD 13000
In 1980’s Avengers #197, writer David Michelinie revealed that Carol Danvers was pregnant…
In #199, the rest of the Avengers find out and even though her pregnancy is pretty clearly unnatural (as she has matured four months just since Wanda learned of her pregnancy), the Avengers are pretty thrilled for her…
The next issue (which was co-written by Jim Shooter after Michelinie’s original plans for the baby were changed), she gives birth. The Wasp is shocked to find that Ms. Marvel is not happy about her body being used by some unnatural event… shooter shotdown carol baby original plans.
Only because whatever idiot Marvel execs are throwing a shitfit with the MCU not having the X women live action rights. It's not a bad thing as it highlights how underdeveloped so many Marvel women were. I can barely think of much characterisation Crystal has had other than Johnny Storm & Quicksilver's cock sleeve.
how about some karla vs carol war of marvels story time 42 to45
>who wiped Carol's memory (again) and basically turned her into a completely different individual.
It's kinda funny, they're basically parading around a hollow shell and calling it progress.
>the same place as Hawkeye, but no one complains about how Marvel changed his personality in his solo book.
Because anytime someone complained, they were met with cries of "oh you hate fun".
I've always found it curious that Carol and PowerGirl have a pretty similar trajectory.
>Subordinate to a more important male character
>Mystery pregnancy, evil time traveling son
>GRRL POWER raging feminist phase
>"Jesus fuck woman get your life together" phase
>Original hero name taken over by teenage minority
I'd say PG has fared better than Carol, unless you consider Carol's current artificial popularity a step up.
I don't know guys. I'd read about this being like a rape story, but the only really rapey thing about it was he used machine to make her horny. I think fans disliked the story more because it's quite a wacky setup up rather than any actual rape sub plot. There was a movie called Womb which was this exact plot wth Eva Green and Matt smith
>I'd say PG has fared better than Carol, unless you consider Carol's current artificial popularity a step up.
I'd say they're equally shit right now. PG fared a lot better from Infinite Crisis right up until the New 52 and now she's stuck in the shittiness that Earth 2 managed to devolve into.
That happened before KSD. They started pushing her with House of M where she was portrayed as one of the world's premiere heroes, then Reed's book launched afterwards, she was made a regular Avenger, etc. But she still had her headstrong, punch first, right-wing tendencies in his book.
Then they decided to reinvent her as Le Feminist Supeheroine Lady, gave her to KSD and we have the awful character that now exists (can't be right-wing either; god forbid you have a good guy who isn't a progressive liberal yuppie/minority).
Peyer hates himself. He would be the last guy to say that. Spider moves and his dick make him a good lover.
We see this in 90s and 80s peter. We see this in his MKs run and wven with slott when he was with silk