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He's right you know. Superheroes have...
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He's right you know. Superheroes have restricted the American comic industry for far too long.
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>>78981225
>waah people wont buy my indie arthouse comics about a man raising his wife's son

superhero comics get made because they sell. Why should comic companies pump out shit theres no market for no matter how desperately twitter personalities try to pretend there is.
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>>78981225

Other genres will climb to popularity when people stop buying cape comics.
>>
You may not be wrong in this moment Diaz but you're still a shitty broken clock.
>>
It's a bit more complicated than blaming a genre or even thinking it has anything to do with genders. Like you look at this >>78981272 but also the way that indie books in general are released and marketed. Basically unless you extremely lucky or have written a well-known run from a big 2 book, no LCS is going to waste time ordering your book regardless of content because they know it won't sell regardless of content.

Basically non-cape publishes probably need to find a way outside of the direct market to push their books if they want sales. It's not really as simple as blaming superheroes or whatever. Even some good capeshit doesn't sell because it doesn't have Batman or Spider-Man in it and it's written by a no-name.

And even bothering to respond to a comment like "women don't read comics" and suggesting the genre is the issue is also missing the point. NO ONE fucking reads comics regardless of demographics. It's an incredibly small industry compared to basically every other entertainment venue.
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>Diaz
>ever right
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>>78981402
and there's a bunch of typos and some redundant phrases here but I don't actually give that much of a fuck

read what you want and stop being a bitch if no one else wants to read it
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>>78981272
There's no market because of the way comics are distributed.
The people who go into comics shop are first interested by cape comics.
I'm not from the USA and if I had to go into a shop specialised into selling comics to read my first one (being europeen, japanese or american), I would never had read comics in my life.

Maybe, digital distribution will change that with time but I doubt, people still need to go on a comics application/site first.
At least, no shop means the shop's owner won't decide what his clients should read.
>>
Sturgeon's Law, it's not just happening in comics.
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>>78981225
I love myself a good indie comic, but that's a dumb sentiment.
Between Diamond being shitty and 90% of LCSs being late-stage cancer to the industry, genre specificity is way down the line of why more indie books aren't successful.
>>
The fact no one gives a shit about comics has restricted the comic industry.

Hipsters honestly seem to think that if superheroes disappear suddenly everyone will start to give a shit about their own crappy books.
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>>78981442
tl:dr comics need to be pushed in supermarkets at lower prices and with more content, like Archie.
>>
Aaron Diaz is a stupid piece of shit but he's not saying anything wrong here. That doesn't make him smart or good. All retards will occasionally say things that aren't retarded.
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>>78981335
That's not how the real world works. If people stopped buying cape comics, the US comic industry would collapse into near oblivion. Nobody's going to go "Huh, no superhero comics. I'll just buy this other piece of shit."

If you really want other genres of comics to thrive, you need really, really good products that capture a wide audience and are created by and attract really talented people to continue the cycle. As is, the majority of the industry (including the highest profile creators) is populated by hacks who couldn't cut it as book authors, screenwriters or whatever other industry.
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>>78981225
In the digital age, you can't really complain about something like this. You can quite easily find something you personally like and support it online, whether that's a digital version or ordering it online.
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>>78981225
Question:
Does Godzilla in Hell count as a "Superhero" comic?
If it is, then does that mean "Superhero" is an overly wide term that could be used to describe almost any protagonist?
And if it is not, then does it serve as a good example of his over simplification of the modern comic industry?
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>>78981225
But that's wrong. Indie comics are labeled as such because they're independently made. No one would refer to European Sci-fi, War, or History comics as "indie". No one refers to Vertigo or Icon releases as "indie".
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>>78981496
>supermarkets

Nope. You need to push them hard at places where people buy things that they like to spend time with. Having them online at Wal-Mart, Target, etc is a good start but they need more in those retail stores too.

Supermarkets are the last place they need to be. Fucking no one goes down that aisle and those who do only really get the things like the teen magazines that have promotions where you can get free clothes and shit if you take a copy to a retailer.
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>>78981496
No no no please stop pushing the supermarket angle.

In order for a publisher to operate in the newstand market, they have to be able to buy back every unsold copy, EVERY SINGLE ONE, paying for shipping and stocking and other fees.

Archie can survive this because they have enough mainstream appeal to not lose (too much) money in that market. Publishers of "nerd culture" cruft are too niche, and they'll end up losing lots of money when they sell way fewer copies than they have to buy back.
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>>78981225
I feel the same way at times but mostly I think that's it's sjw politics and shitty writers that truly restricts the American comic industry.

Superheroes in the hands of decent writers who aren't sjw pandering fucks, are pretty damn good.
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>>78981496
NO.
I'm french, and here comics sold at supermarket are often reduced to a dozen of garbage series with a big marketing team behind and a few big names. Supermarkets aren't known for their risk-taking abilities.
You have to go to specialized libraries (or the Fnac, which is a supermarket but only for cultural products) to have even a modicum of choice, and store clerks that provide actual information.
>>
American comics are mono-genre because cock knockers like Diaz went all moral panic back in the day and killed every other genre beside super hero comics.
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>>78981538
>implying that there's ever any correlation between quality and sales
I see you criticizing others for having a simplistic view of the world, but then you come out with this naive take on reality?
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>>78981586
The fuck are you even on about.

He didn't say that non-superhero comics don't exist.

Godzilla in Hell exists, but it had mediocre sales (15k to 12k) because most comic readers aren't interested in a product like that.
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>>78981590
>No one refers to Vertigo or Icon releases as "indie".
Even on /co/, people erroneously refer to Vertigo as "indie" all the time.

They shouldn't, but they do anyway. His assertion is accurate.
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>>78981733

Comics in general have mediocre sales!

People just don't read comics in general.

That would probably be the case regardless of genre.

It's niche.

There's nothing wrong with being niche.

I don't know why every single thing has to exist for every single person. That's so silly.
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>>78981764
But Valiant is still called indie despite being superheroes. It's not really a genre thing as much as it is "not mainline DC or Marvel"
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>>78981225
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't he writing a series about a scantily/fetishistically clad superpowered cyborg with amnesia fighting a nebulous and evil organization?

I mean, dial it back to 1994 and Dresden Codak wouldn't be too out of place, storywise, from half of Image's output.
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>>78981590
I'm pretty sure Icon is indie. Marvel weren't getting shit from the wanted and kickass flicks
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>>78981785
>There's nothing wrong with being niche.

Teree's a lot wrong with being niche if you're like Diaz and you want to make money off it

That's his own fault for not getting into TV or movies instead though
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>>78981764
Nah. Vertigo is usually referred to as DC, never as indie. Except when you want to shit on the big two, you can't bring up Vertigo as a positive because Vertigo doesn't count.
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>>78981827
If we tried to convert Dresden Codak to a tv show we'd have enough material for a handful of webshorts, a two parter, and three episodes of an unfinished arc.
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>>78981785
Loss of specialization is always upsetting. I don't like comics, but there's loss of specialization problem in vidya.
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>>78981647
This. Moral puritans killed comics once and they'll do it again.
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>>78981496
>>78981646
I'm french too and supermarket are still a link with a large public. I bought my first manga (Gunnm) in a supermarket and then I started going to Fnac and specialised manga shop when I wanted a larger range of manga.

How many Americans go to the local equivalent of Fnac (supermarket for cultural products, like you said) compared to those who go to supermarket.

I bought my first american comics (a floppie) in the paper shop where I buying my magazines.

Comics need to get out of the LCS ghetto.
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>>78981225
Because we see SOOOO many people trying to do non-cape comics.

Also, the flip side to that whole thing is you get to see just how shitty writers really are they don't have the filter they normally do.
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>>78981785
Think of every corporate-owned comic that was canceled too soon because the publisher wasn't making a profit on it.

Think of every creator-owned comic that was canceled too soon because the creators couldn't support themselves on it.

Think of every comic that was never even started in the first place, because someone feared that it would be too niche to survive.

If comics were more popular then it would be financially viable to produce more comics, and we as readers would be able to enjoy more comics.
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>>78981811
Is it? I remember this discussion coming up before, how Vertigo's practices differ from, say, Image. That Vertigo/DC foots the bill for a creator to make a comic, and the creator still has control over the story, but unfortunately doesn't retain ancillary rights. While at Image, the creator has full autonomous control, but has to support their own book with their own money.

I'll admit I don't know how Icon is supposed to function.
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>>78981966
To be fair more popularity would generally just mean that the corporate cancellation point moves up accordingly. It wouldn't mean that they let poor sellers exist just because they're profitable.
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>>78981785
>Comics in general have mediocre sales!
I think he knows that and was speaking relatively, because that's how numbers work in the real world.

>>78981827
Has this nigga tried to talk to someone not into the arts about indie films, tho?
They're not as far reaching as he seem to think they are.
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>>78981225
>American comic industry
>industry
what do you expect
>>
He's right but that last tweet was pretty damn stupid.
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>>78981601
>Superheroes in the hands of decent writers who aren't sjw pandering fucks, are pretty damn good.
The problem is not wether cape comics can be good, but that others kind of comics barely exist in the actual market.
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>>78981272
>superhero comics get made because they sell
PFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>capefags believe this
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>>78981412
>CQC Bro
nice trollpost
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>>78981846
I've seen dudes start up indie threads to talk about indie comics and the first discussion being about fucking Sandman.

/co/ thinks vertigo is indie because /co/ is kinda dumb.
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>>78982123
It is true. If they didn't make money the companies wouldn't make new ones since they can keep any rights to the characters by putting out reprints. Would probably just make more money that way too since they wouldln't have to pay creators as much.
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>>78982123
Comics don't sell as well as __________some_arbitrary_thing__________ but most titles still sell well enough to make a profit.
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>>78982027
More popularity means more money and thus publisher less allergic to experiments.
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>>78981225
Refrigerated ketchup has restricted well-done steaks for too long, but you don't see me trolling him about it.
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>>78982197
He's not trolling you either. He didn't make this thread.

At least, I *think* OP isn't him...
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>>78981802
Dresden Codak/Cyberforce crossover when?
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Remember when Mœbius died?

Remember when Diaz drew a tribute picture that looked nothing like anything Mœbius, even if you ignore that it was draw in Diaz's three-face-style?

Remember how Diaz tried to sell his tribute, just a few days after Mœbius died?

Truly Diaz is the saviour of comics and comic art.
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>>78982195
No they'll still experiment in the hopes that good ideas become big hits, but if the small books don't sell they'll still get cancelled early even if they're profitable because they can get replaced by something that would make more money. It's just the reality of the situation.
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>>78982235
Nah, just a Dresden Codak EXTREME!!! AU.
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>>78982305
Not every publisher behaves like Marvel and DC.
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>>78981412
Broken clocks, bro.
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>>78982311
How about Wetworks?
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>>78981225
I don't know about the female audience, but comics have done a great job repelling the male audience lately.

Also that person is clearly retarded.
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get it? like watchmen!
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>>78982342
Read back in the replies, it was specifically referring to corporate comics.

Indies would probably benefit by more creators not bothering with the big 2 since they would be able to profitably tell their own stories.
>>
Here's the thing. Diaz is right and superhero comics do have a stranglehold on the medium.

However as usual his inability to learn history or appreciate context or even do basic research because he's so sure he knows everything means he's full of shit.
Comics are like they are now by and large because of two things:
1. Diamond Comic Distributers not givng non big 2 shit a fair shake.
2. Moral crusaders, ironically precursors to Diaz himself, killed off 90% of the medium when they whined until they got the CCA.
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>>78982368
Maybe, either that or go pure Silver Age with it.
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>>78982379
Even among corporate-owned comics publishers, publishers like Dark Horse and IDW don't always have to behave like Marvel and DC.
>>
Well, /co/? Are you actually *buying* non-cape comics?
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>>78981225
If he had any awareness at all he might realize that his argument just makes him look more petty. If there's a big wide world of comics out there that women are reading why the fuck do you waste so much time "fixing" the tiny niche for them and campaigning it be changed? They've got other stuff they can be reading.
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>>78982421
Fair, but their cancellation points are pretty low anyway.
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>>78982442
I exclusively buy creator-owned non-cape comics. The only corporate-owned and/or cape comics that I read are the ones that I pirate.
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Comics won't sell until they give people what they want and there are a lot of people who think giving certain people what they want is very very wrong.
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>>78982479
Why would you even read them if you don't like them?

Seems like a waste of time.
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>>78982508
Where did I say that I don't like them?
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>>78982454
Because he wants their money. That's the entire motivation for these arguments, people who are mad that they don't make the money they want.
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>>78982442

I don't buy anything, so I'm clearly not part of the problem.
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>>78981225

Has this asshole never heard Waid's quote about how superheroes are a medium and not a genre? Jesus Christ this man has no imagination. Compare Miller Daredevil to WIlson's Ms. Marvel, there's virtually nothing alike.

Yeah there should be more indie and non superhero comics, but stop acting like you're fucking Art Spieglman or Richard McGuire when you can't do layouts to save your life.
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>>78982545
but aren't there more indie /non cape comics than not? Or do only comics published by a name count?
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>>78982480
What mango is that?
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>>78982591
Shokugeki no Soma.
It's a cooking manga.
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>>78981225

>Aaron Diaz is complaining about superhero comics keeping people from publishing the things that they want when he gets paid nearly 5k a month for a non-superhero comic he barely updates + the 500k he got for a kickstarter,

I'm not saying he's not wrong, but he's definitely not the one qualified to say it.
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>>78982545
But what if-- hear me out here-- but just what if Mark Waid isn't some all-seeing all-knowing God who's always right about everything?
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>>78982583

If we only count say the Big Four, then capeshit dominates. Self publishing and minor presses are what tilt the process.
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>>78982277

Does someone happen to have a crop about this? I have seen all the other Aaron crops but I haven't heard about this.
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>>78981225
Wasnt this the same guy who sent dick pics to 13 year old boys
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>>78982602

And easily the worst of the cooking manga.

Iron Wok Jan should be scanned one day, since it's long out of print here.
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>>78982305
They experiment by putting out more cape comics...
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>>78982630
But why would you only count them? Is this people bitching that Marvel and DC won't throw all their weight behind their trans coming of age in fantasy canada love story?
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>>78981601
>I feel the same way at times but mostly I think that's it's sjw politics and shitty writers that truly restricts the American comic industry
Capeshit has been shit long before tumblr and the sjw boogieman were around.
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>>78982628

Oh Waid has been wrong a number of times. But Diaz is MORE wrong, since he apparently suffers from a rare condition where all capeshit is identical when he opens it.
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>>78982602
>It's a cooking manga
Tasty. Thanks, /co/mrade.
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>>78981647
It certainly doesn't help that the vast majority of comic news sites treat everything indie, outside of major Image titles, as 3rd or 4th class citizens and only stick to promoting the Big 2 Superhero companies.

Likewise to Diaz and his ilk who just bitch endlessly about their decisions and don't push or promote the books that reflect their interests.
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>>78982628

I'm not a fan of Waid for obvious reasons but you have to admit when it comes to comicbooks his opinion outweighs the one of a hack that can't even update his webcomic
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He should go to Germany and create form them a super sensitive comics to teach Muslims it is not okey to rape women.
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>>78982692
well yeah, they want money.

lets make our own news site.
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>>78982442
I don't find them as entertaining
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>>78982454
>If there's a big wide world of comics out there that women are reading why the fuck do you waste so much time "fixing" the tiny niche for them and campaigning it be changed? They've got other stuff they can be reading.
Because there is not a big wide world of comics out there for women to read... If most cape comics readers are men, and most comics are cape comics, then most women don't read comics.
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>>78982745
yeah it's not really a conspiracy, news sites know what generate page clicks
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>>78981538
>the US comic industry would collapse into near oblivion


Why would I care? I do not own Warner or Disney stock. And the creators would not stop creating without the blanket of the "industry".
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>>78982711
I really don't have to appeal to authority. Why should one's ability to analyze comics be dependent on their ability to make comics? None of us here make comics, but here we are analyzing them anyway.
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>>78982777
All we can really properly analyze is the result, we don't have a lot of information on process.
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>>78981966
Why would I think about the negatives when I can have awesome time with great comics that already exist?
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>>78982692
>>78982745
>>78982774
Why don't we just all agree to switch to using the EXISTING comic news sites which ALREADY aren't payola scams?

e.g. TCJ, Sequart, The Comics Reporter, Comics&Cola
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>>78982810
To be fair I don't really use any comics sites unless a creator I like tweets out a link to an interview or monthly solicits are released. No other point.
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>>78982801
You've never had a non-awesome time with great comics that were canceled prematurely?

Shit, do you only read guaranteed sellers like Batman and Spider-Man?
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>>78982545
There's no similarity between Star Wars and Cube, they're both considered science-fiction's movies. If you don't like sci-fi, you won't want to watch neither of them.
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>>78981225
>guise, i just read watchmen and got all the weird pirate parts of the book

This faggot should respect the genre for what it is. Without capeshit, comics wouldn't exist as a medium.
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>>78982777
>None of us here make comics

Liar.

>>78982772
>Because there is not a big wide world of comics out there for women to read... If most cape comics readers are men, and most comics are cape comics, then most women don't read comics.


That isn't true though. It's not that there aren't comics for women. It's that they're (the type of people that espouse these ideas, not women in general) only looking at the top. They only care about the things that they think everyone else already likes. Like cape books that get movies. They don't want to do the legwork to find what they would like. Especially if there's no large fanbase already attached.


>>78982810
I don't actually bother with news sites at all.
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>>78982842
The world doesn't revolve around America, you stupid American.
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>>78982842
>guise, i just read watchmen and got all the weird pirate parts of the book

Oh Jesus. You're absolutely right.

Diaz is the kind of feeble minded chump who goes hard on every thing he immediately just read or watched. Like when his waifu all of a sudden had the haircut of the girl from Fury Road.
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>>78982834
>You've never had a non-awesome time with great comics that were canceled prematurely?

That is beside the point. It is understood this happens. The problem is you get hung up on it, only so you can make yourself feel miserable.
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>>78982842
Maybe it should die to be reborn?
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>>78982743
>germany
>creating comics
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

In all seriousness, we actually do have comic artists, but no comic industry. Most of it is comedy, or german manga and barely anything ambitious.
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>>78981225

Look, Diaz is having his broken clock moment.

Yeah, the way superheroes monopolized the American comic market has been extremely unhealthy for the medium. We've been over this repeteadly, Diaz, everyone knows. The problem is that the seeds of this started with the old CCA days and it's a cultural trend that's been going on for literal decades, so changing it now is going to be rather harder than just "remove superheroes".
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>>78982890
If comics were more popular then it might happen less often, or not at all. It's hard to say because we don't live in that reality, but to dismiss that possibility entirely is very closed-minded of you.
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>>78982848
>>None of us here make comics
>Liar.
I don't think any drawfag who started publishing a comic considers themselve as part of 4chan anymore. the few who do are hacks and/or not considered by /co/ to be part of 4chan.

They are all parasites who either get big, or develop thinking they are hot shit.
>>
>>78982798
What does the process have to do with it? The question is whether to view superheroes as a genre or to view capes as a medium. How does being a professional creator (as opposed to an amateur creator) have any bearing on one's interpretation of the issue?

Have there never been any professional creators that disagreed with Waid?
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>>78982966
Moving them goalposts.

No one said anything about good comics.
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>>78982772

People should get more into Euro comics. Seriously, I live in a shitty part of Europe and pretty much any really large store will have multiple shelves of comics and graphic novels (and another group of shelves for manga stuff).
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>>78982842
>comics wouldn't exist as a medium
You do realize comics are called that way because the first form of comics in the USA were Comic Strip ie humoristic comic and not cape comic?
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>>78982999
And those good comics are not /co/ because the creators started to ignore their former drawfag home.
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>>78981225
>Aaron Diaz

I'm not going to open that image but I assume he's talking shit about cape shit because nobody's paying attention to his shit and he's insisting his shit is better while being a whiny little manlet
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>>78982745
>>78982774
I'm not saying it's a conspiracy. I know money is the reason the news sites give all the press to DC/Marvel.

But what's Diaz' excuse?

My issue is that these same sites will routinely run articles and opinion pieces about the state of comics and how it needs to change to be more inclusive or we're all gonna die yadda yadda yadda. I don't just mean CBR/Newsarama either, I mean the up-their-own-ass socially conscious Comic Alliance and Mary Sues who supposedly know better but are in fact completely clueless.

For example: Ava's Demon. I can't recall a single website that's reported on the success of a single, independent female creator with a substantial fanbase who has raised over a half million dollars via Kickstarter to support her own female lead, non-superhero book.

No matter how you feel about the book, that's a pretty impressive accomplishment.

You'd think they would be parading that around as a "SEE IN UR FACES CAPE LOVING SCUM" but they're oblivious.

They just continue to bitch about what race/gender is writing what 20k niche c-level that they don't even support anyways.
>>
>>78982966
there's a few pros who do come on /co/ like Hi-Fi and Lieber, but I would think that they stay away from industry arguments like this
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>>78983016
>I live in a shitty part of Europe
Germany, eh?
>>
>>78982848
>They don't want to do the legwork to find what they would like.
Most people don't, that's why it's a niche. You need to be already interested a little to discover something that interest you specifically. If it was the same for books, nobody would read.
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>>78982991
I think capes are more like a style. Not genre or medium.

Cape is when your characters all have unique abilities, looks and personas interlinked. Overwhelmingly special snowflakes in cast is what makes cape a cape, nobody is the same except by accident or deliberately designed as a knock-off.

Iron Man is cape because he's the only one, put his armour in mass production and you have just military science fiction with power armour. Starship Troopers or Warhammer are not capes because there are many of those basically the same.

Zatanna is cape because she's unlike anyone else empowered. Harry Potter is not cape because every wizard is basically drawing from the same pool of abilities.
>>
>Diaz
>being right
That pile of lukewarm shit could claim the earth revolves around the sun and the universe would briefly rearrange itself only so he would be wrong the moment he said it.
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>>78982277
>and also puts ketchup on his steak
>>
>>78983059

Spain, actually. But yeah, my problem is more often to filter which comics are good than to find non-cape comics, because non-capes were always majority. Honestly, until the Marvel movies boomed, finding cape comics required a lot more actual looking.
>>
>>78983056
There's no money in reporting internet comic stuff. If people want news about it they can go to the site.

But they do report on printed books by the same people when they're done. Kate Beaton, Hanna is not a boy's name chic's most recent stuff. Etc.
>>
>>78983095
...do you Americucks really put ketchup on your steaks? Why?
>>
>>78983149
No. I personally don't like ketchup on anything. Some people have weird ass tastes.
>>
>>78983089
Did Waid say that superheroes are a medium? If so then you have to abandon your current opinions and switch to using Waid's opinions instead.
>>
>>78983130
At least you guys have a shitload of comic artists.
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>>78981225

>posting a rant on twitter

Easiest way to make sure nobody will ever take any point you raise seriously. You wanna talk about issues in the comic industry? Do research, write an article, get it published in a news outlet or on a personal blog.

Twitter is for idiots telling other idiots what they're eating or that they ran out of toliet paper and are stuck in the bathroom, not for dissemination of actual arguments.
>>
>>78983089
Mostly to me if it's just beating one villain then you're not cape but if it's a continuous battle against evil in general you are. Individuality does play a role but you start splitting hairs if you get too specific with that and if a costume/hideout/secret identity are needed and other shit. GLC is still pretty cape despite not being unique, for example.
>>
>>78983216
Twitter is shitty for argument developing, but you're forgetting that it's good for live updates of things. Like pretty much any free agency/trade deadline day on sports twitter is amazing.
>>
>>78983230
I'm not sure what point are you making? Capes aren't supposed to end? That just doesn't make sense, it would make Watchmen less cape then CSI.

Is it a philosophic thing like it's never over even if you are cancelled? Then it's pretty much all adventure fiction.
>>
Well, we can acknowledge that struggling sales is the problem that leads to over saturation of superheroes in comics. The first step in addressing a problem is admitting it, right? And it is a real problem, not just for comics in general, but the superhero genre itself. Superheroes have been forced to take on a role they really aren't suited for. To me, the Max Fleischer cartoon was at the emotional level at which Superman functions best. But that's not enough when part of the audience that reads Superman is in their thirties and forties. Nah, Superman stories have to be pseudo realistic and drama focused. A writer can't just have Superman break into an evil genius' lair and wreck his lab equipment and fly away.

The characters also suffer from writers having to push the envelope too far. I mean, the Joker had to literally cut his own face off just to stay relevant. His psychosis becomes the main angle of his character, the clown makeup largely incidental. He's pushed as this dark, evil, grotesque symbol of humanity's desperate madness in modern depictions.

He's a fucking cartoon character from the 1940's. It's a clown that robs banks. Relax, people.
>>
>>78981225
That Pirate Romance shit sounds pretty great honestly.
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>>78983091
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Stop giving attention-whores attention.
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>>78983280
>Is it a philosophic thing like it's never over even if you are cancelled?

Yeah. Like it's not just "got to end the war" or whatever.

>Then it's pretty much all adventure fiction.

Not all, but much of it yes.
>>
>>78983340
Why assume it's about who posted it and not just honest discussion of the argument itself? Some people do hold grudges but for the most part this thread has been good.
>>
>>78983356
This makes it kinda worthless distinction.
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>>78983194

That doesn't make any sense. You can agree with someone without having "Their opinions"
>>
>>78983388
Well it's subjective of course, but I find fewer flaws with it than other definitions.
>>
>>78983379
>Why assume it's about who posted it and not just honest discussion of the argument itself?

Because the OP would have just posed the question himself without going "HURR HE RITE" and posting a fucking Twitter screenshot. It's always about the faggot who said whatever. These threads the equivalent of click bait.
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>>78983517
You are the only one who cares about him and try to derail the thread. We just want to talk about comics no matter who started the discussion.

Great people discuss ideas and mediocre people discuss people and all this.
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>>78983091
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>>78982123
Sell more that indieshit.
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>>78981225
>Diaz
>ever right about anything
>>
>>78983546
>You are the only one who cares about him

Sure yeah, that's why this thread is still alive. People are just taking the bait. Anyway, I'm out and thread hidden. I just need to remind you dumb cunts every now and then that social media allows parasites like Diaz to feed off your gawking.
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More like indie-hipsters are incredibly lazy and expect to be rolling in dosh when they put out two issues in eight months about shit that is thoroughly unentertaining or interesting and then get pissy when it doesn't happen (never mind that comics will NEVER be profitable).

Entitled little shits need to look at Mignola and take notes.
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>>78982352
This clock no longer has hands or a face.
>>
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>>78982848
>Especially if there's no large fanbase already attached.
If I won the powerball I'd make a PSA about this sentence. They want to be seen as smart and popular for liking shit, which of course requires them to make sure it's always 100% safe so as to be as popular as possible

>>78983056
The irony is that Diaz and his ilk put more effort into trying to kill Ava's Demon than they ever did to promote it. WE were the ones promoting it.

I got news for you, they say the want this stuff but they only really want it if they or one of their friends is behind it. This is shallow clique shit disguised as progressiveness and egalitarianism.
>>
Why does it always have to be argued by genre?

Sure, there is the "Big Two" who sell a lot more than other publishers because they have (as others said) a niche market or corned the market with popular characters.

So? What's stopping other companies from making their own "capeshit"? The answer: nothing.

Genre aside, people want great characters and character development. We want engaging stories with unexpected twists or surprises. We want great art to immerse us into the world. We want great storytelling. Genre really shouldn't matter - capes or no capes.
>>
>>78982775
>Why would I care?

Because you claim that you care about non-superhero comics doing well.

Sounds like you're a poser memeposting about how great it is superhero comics should die.
>>
>>78983786
>Entitled little shits need to look at Mignola and take notes.
They'll just declare everything Mignola does to be superheroes so that they can continue to be "right".
>>
>>78981225
He is right. But he's not the first to say this and he's on the coattails of guys like Dave Sim, Alan Moore and Warren Ellis in voicing this opinion.
>>
>>78984090
yeap. just like gaming. the industry is very diverse.
however these assholes, have no actual awareness of what is out there for content.
There are many comics out there, not superhero releated. Even by the big two. however, these comics often just barely squeak by or don't at all. Because assholes like Diaz, who make posts like that, insisting Capes are choking comics, while never in his life is even aware of Fell's five, Skullkickers, or the like.
its only when the clique makes something, that they take notice, and pimp each other.

how did these assholes not support Prez? Gotham Academy?
>>
>>78983016
Diversity in cultural stuff is always a good thing. Even if I barely read any european comics nowdays, I'm quite happy to have access to a large range of comics, being european, american or japanese. Even if comics is not that big a market in France, at least, we got diversity.
>>
>>78983230
>if it's a continuous battle against evil in general
This sound a lot like your basic heroic fantasy story.
>>
>>78983786
>A few are succeful therefore everyone who aren't are entitled little shit.
The world is more complicated than that...
>>
>>78984167
I used to believe that but I'm more inclined to believe >>78983786 and >>78984275 based on observation.

Do you remember back in 1998 when Danger Girl and Battle Chasers were getting higher orders than most superhero comics? It obviously didn't last long and not because of superhero comics, but mainly because they weren't out with much consistency.
>>
>>78982123
You know whenever you type like this you just come off as butthurt, right?
>>
>>78982897
Didi und Stulle is pretty cool tho
>>
>>78984297
I'd says that's a pretty big market compared to the US: according to figures from
http://www.du9.org/dossier/structure-du-marche/
and
http://blog.comichron.com/2014/07/comics-and-graphic-novel-market-reaches.html
the comic market in France is ~400M€ and 870M€ in US+Canada, keeping in mind that France's pop is 66M and Us+Canada 350M
On the other hand, compared to the rest of the cultural industry, I agree it's not a lot (http://www.ey.com/FR/fr/Industries/Media---Entertainment/Panorama-des-industries-culturelles-et-creatives)
>>
>>78984850
(Just to add that I have no idea if these figures are reliable, but at least they exist)
>>
>>78984850
>>78984881
Also it's 870M$ for US+Canada obviously
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>>78981225
>few women watch action movies
How out of touch with reality is he?
>>
>>78984972
Has he gotten any responses to that tweet?
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>>78984118
>So? What's stopping other companies from making their own "capeshit"? The answer: nothing.
It's already an over saturated genre.Why would the average customer buy a hyperman book when superman,sentry and captain marvel exist.

>Genre aside, people want great characters and character development. We want engaging stories with unexpected twists or surprises. We want great art to immerse us into the world. We want great storytelling. Genre really shouldn't matter - capes or no capes
The ongoing never-ending nature of superhero comics forces writers to adhere to the status quo. Furthermore in order to appeal to the target audience of the superhero genre writers tend to have to feature stereotypes and clichés common in the genre.
>>
fuck you superheros are the american dream.
>>
>>78982480
Do porn comic/hentai even sell well.
>>
>>78981225
No he's not, and here's why.

1. ALMOST 100% OF THE SUPERHERO GENRE COMES FROM THREE PUBLISHERS AND ONE OF THEM IS VALIANT SO IT MIGHT AS WELL BE JUST TWO.
This is nearly universally overlooked, but "superheroes" at this point basically just means "Marvel and DC". Even the titles that have nothing to do with superheroes, like Punisher or (Dan Slott's) Silver Surfer, get called "cape" just because they're published by those companies.

2. MARVEL AND DC PUBLISH LESS THAN 100 TITLES BETWEEN THEM. IF YOU THROW ON VALIANT IT'S JUST AROUND/OVER 100. YET THE INDUSTRY PUBLISHES WELL OVER 500 BOOKS PER MONTH.
This is the most important thing that gets overlooked. Capes don't even make up all that large of a percentage of the industry. And yet this myth that "most comics are superheroes" keeps being perpetuated by even faggots in the industry itself.

3. MOST COMICS ARE SCI-FI OR HIPSTER SHIT.
And here's the kicker. I've never seen anyone complain about the amount of sci-fi in comics even though it genuinely IS overwhelming the medium. No one in the industry complains about the number of sidecuts even though there are many times more than spandex tights. If you want to read modern comics you basically have three choices: Sci-fi that's so bad it'd never be given the time of day in any other medium, sjwfaggotry, or soap opera about writer self-inserts impaling each other and severing each other's limbs. Exceptions to this are extremely rare to the point of being noteworthy just for existing. This problem more than anything else is what's restricting comics from being more popular.
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>>78984850
I had read part of the du9's article but didn't know about the us market. Thanks for the info and the links.
The market is still not big enough for the french production. A lot of scenarists and artists barely earn anything.
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>>78985400
>the american dream
The american delusion, you mean.
Superheroes are indeed an apt symbol for america.
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>>78983230
That'd make old mythology like Roman or Hindu mythology cape.
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>>78984118
>So? What's stopping other companies from making their own "capeshit"? The answer: nothing.
They are already doin't it. Never heard of Invincible, The Darkness, Witchblade (more than a 100 issues each)... This is not about market and the possibility for other publishers to earn their share of it. It's about diversity.

The problem of genre is that, if you don't like cape comics or want something else, you have less choices, and apart from the Walkind Dead, a lot of those comics don't last long.
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>>78985705
>2. MARVEL AND DC PUBLISH LESS THAN 100 TITLES BETWEEN THEM. IF YOU THROW ON VALIANT IT'S JUST AROUND/OVER 100. YET THE INDUSTRY PUBLISHES WELL OVER 500 BOOKS PER MONTH.

I don't believe this, source?
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>>78982538
Ah, the many delights of not being a disgusting buyfag.
>>
>>78985986
Morrison would certainly agree.
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>>78983149
No nonameribro, Anyone who puts ketchup on steak is shit, regardless of nationality.
>>
>>78986101
>you have less choices

But that's wrong.
>>
>>78983216
>twitter
>personal blog

Literally no difference between them
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>>78982591
How could someone not know the difference between hotpockets and lean pockets? it's literally 2016!
>>
>>78983006
His fucking redesigns are always so uninspired
>WW should be more Greco/Roman. Hm what's Greco/Roman?
>Aha! Toga, statues, and gladiators.

>Hm, Maritian Manhunter wasn't lanky enough.. there, that looks good.

>Now, GL. He needs to be a she, and quirky, so I'll put a little dinosaur here. Done!
>>
>>78981225
Indeed. It's true. Caped turned out to be a cancer to the industry once saved.
>>
>>78989984
You came too late to the discussion, memeposter
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