It's a bit more complicated than blaming a genre or even thinking it has anything to do with genders. Like you look at this >>78981272 but also the way that indie books in general are released and marketed. Basically unless you extremely lucky or have written a well-known run from a big 2 book, no LCS is going to waste time ordering your book regardless of content because they know it won't sell regardless of content.
Basically non-cape publishes probably need to find a way outside of the direct market to push their books if they want sales. It's not really as simple as blaming superheroes or whatever. Even some good capeshit doesn't sell because it doesn't have Batman or Spider-Man in it and it's written by a no-name.
And even bothering to respond to a comment like "women don't read comics" and suggesting the genre is the issue is also missing the point. NO ONE fucking reads comics regardless of demographics. It's an incredibly small industry compared to basically every other entertainment venue.
>>78981272 There's no market because of the way comics are distributed. The people who go into comics shop are first interested by cape comics. I'm not from the USA and if I had to go into a shop specialised into selling comics to read my first one (being europeen, japanese or american), I would never had read comics in my life.
Maybe, digital distribution will change that with time but I doubt, people still need to go on a comics application/site first. At least, no shop means the shop's owner won't decide what his clients should read.
>>78981225 I love myself a good indie comic, but that's a dumb sentiment. Between Diamond being shitty and 90% of LCSs being late-stage cancer to the industry, genre specificity is way down the line of why more indie books aren't successful.
>>78981335 That's not how the real world works. If people stopped buying cape comics, the US comic industry would collapse into near oblivion. Nobody's going to go "Huh, no superhero comics. I'll just buy this other piece of shit."
If you really want other genres of comics to thrive, you need really, really good products that capture a wide audience and are created by and attract really talented people to continue the cycle. As is, the majority of the industry (including the highest profile creators) is populated by hacks who couldn't cut it as book authors, screenwriters or whatever other industry.
>>78981225 In the digital age, you can't really complain about something like this. You can quite easily find something you personally like and support it online, whether that's a digital version or ordering it online.
>>78981225 Question: Does Godzilla in Hell count as a "Superhero" comic? If it is, then does that mean "Superhero" is an overly wide term that could be used to describe almost any protagonist? And if it is not, then does it serve as a good example of his over simplification of the modern comic industry?
>>78981225 But that's wrong. Indie comics are labeled as such because they're independently made. No one would refer to European Sci-fi, War, or History comics as "indie". No one refers to Vertigo or Icon releases as "indie".
Nope. You need to push them hard at places where people buy things that they like to spend time with. Having them online at Wal-Mart, Target, etc is a good start but they need more in those retail stores too.
Supermarkets are the last place they need to be. Fucking no one goes down that aisle and those who do only really get the things like the teen magazines that have promotions where you can get free clothes and shit if you take a copy to a retailer.
>>78981496 No no no please stop pushing the supermarket angle.
In order for a publisher to operate in the newstand market, they have to be able to buy back every unsold copy, EVERY SINGLE ONE, paying for shipping and stocking and other fees.
Archie can survive this because they have enough mainstream appeal to not lose (too much) money in that market. Publishers of "nerd culture" cruft are too niche, and they'll end up losing lots of money when they sell way fewer copies than they have to buy back.
>>78981496 NO. I'm french, and here comics sold at supermarket are often reduced to a dozen of garbage series with a big marketing team behind and a few big names. Supermarkets aren't known for their risk-taking abilities. You have to go to specialized libraries (or the Fnac, which is a supermarket but only for cultural products) to have even a modicum of choice, and store clerks that provide actual information.
>>78981538 >implying that there's ever any correlation between quality and sales I see you criticizing others for having a simplistic view of the world, but then you come out with this naive take on reality?
>>78981496 >>78981646 I'm french too and supermarket are still a link with a large public. I bought my first manga (Gunnm) in a supermarket and then I started going to Fnac and specialised manga shop when I wanted a larger range of manga.
How many Americans go to the local equivalent of Fnac (supermarket for cultural products, like you said) compared to those who go to supermarket.
I bought my first american comics (a floppie) in the paper shop where I buying my magazines.
>>78981811 Is it? I remember this discussion coming up before, how Vertigo's practices differ from, say, Image. That Vertigo/DC foots the bill for a creator to make a comic, and the creator still has control over the story, but unfortunately doesn't retain ancillary rights. While at Image, the creator has full autonomous control, but has to support their own book with their own money.
I'll admit I don't know how Icon is supposed to function.
>>78981966 To be fair more popularity would generally just mean that the corporate cancellation point moves up accordingly. It wouldn't mean that they let poor sellers exist just because they're profitable.
>>78981601 >Superheroes in the hands of decent writers who aren't sjw pandering fucks, are pretty damn good. The problem is not wether cape comics can be good, but that others kind of comics barely exist in the actual market.
>>78981272 >superhero comics get made because they sell PFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA >capefags believe this
>>78982123 It is true. If they didn't make money the companies wouldn't make new ones since they can keep any rights to the characters by putting out reprints. Would probably just make more money that way too since they wouldln't have to pay creators as much.
>>78982195 No they'll still experiment in the hopes that good ideas become big hits, but if the small books don't sell they'll still get cancelled early even if they're profitable because they can get replaced by something that would make more money. It's just the reality of the situation.
Here's the thing. Diaz is right and superhero comics do have a stranglehold on the medium.
However as usual his inability to learn history or appreciate context or even do basic research because he's so sure he knows everything means he's full of shit. Comics are like they are now by and large because of two things: 1. Diamond Comic Distributers not givng non big 2 shit a fair shake. 2. Moral crusaders, ironically precursors to Diaz himself, killed off 90% of the medium when they whined until they got the CCA.
>>78981225 If he had any awareness at all he might realize that his argument just makes him look more petty. If there's a big wide world of comics out there that women are reading why the fuck do you waste so much time "fixing" the tiny niche for them and campaigning it be changed? They've got other stuff they can be reading.
Has this asshole never heard Waid's quote about how superheroes are a medium and not a genre? Jesus Christ this man has no imagination. Compare Miller Daredevil to WIlson's Ms. Marvel, there's virtually nothing alike.
Yeah there should be more indie and non superhero comics, but stop acting like you're fucking Art Spieglman or Richard McGuire when you can't do layouts to save your life.
>Aaron Diaz is complaining about superhero comics keeping people from publishing the things that they want when he gets paid nearly 5k a month for a non-superhero comic he barely updates + the 500k he got for a kickstarter,
I'm not saying he's not wrong, but he's definitely not the one qualified to say it.
>>78981601 >I feel the same way at times but mostly I think that's it's sjw politics and shitty writers that truly restricts the American comic industry Capeshit has been shit long before tumblr and the sjw boogieman were around.
>>78981647 It certainly doesn't help that the vast majority of comic news sites treat everything indie, outside of major Image titles, as 3rd or 4th class citizens and only stick to promoting the Big 2 Superhero companies.
Likewise to Diaz and his ilk who just bitch endlessly about their decisions and don't push or promote the books that reflect their interests.
>>78982454 >If there's a big wide world of comics out there that women are reading why the fuck do you waste so much time "fixing" the tiny niche for them and campaigning it be changed? They've got other stuff they can be reading. Because there is not a big wide world of comics out there for women to read... If most cape comics readers are men, and most comics are cape comics, then most women don't read comics.
>>78982711 I really don't have to appeal to authority. Why should one's ability to analyze comics be dependent on their ability to make comics? None of us here make comics, but here we are analyzing them anyway.
>>78982772 >Because there is not a big wide world of comics out there for women to read... If most cape comics readers are men, and most comics are cape comics, then most women don't read comics.
That isn't true though. It's not that there aren't comics for women. It's that they're (the type of people that espouse these ideas, not women in general) only looking at the top. They only care about the things that they think everyone else already likes. Like cape books that get movies. They don't want to do the legwork to find what they would like. Especially if there's no large fanbase already attached.
>>78982810 I don't actually bother with news sites at all.
Yeah, the way superheroes monopolized the American comic market has been extremely unhealthy for the medium. We've been over this repeteadly, Diaz, everyone knows. The problem is that the seeds of this started with the old CCA days and it's a cultural trend that's been going on for literal decades, so changing it now is going to be rather harder than just "remove superheroes".
>>78982890 If comics were more popular then it might happen less often, or not at all. It's hard to say because we don't live in that reality, but to dismiss that possibility entirely is very closed-minded of you.
>>78982848 >>None of us here make comics >Liar. I don't think any drawfag who started publishing a comic considers themselve as part of 4chan anymore. the few who do are hacks and/or not considered by /co/ to be part of 4chan.
They are all parasites who either get big, or develop thinking they are hot shit.
>>78982798 What does the process have to do with it? The question is whether to view superheroes as a genre or to view capes as a medium. How does being a professional creator (as opposed to an amateur creator) have any bearing on one's interpretation of the issue?
Have there never been any professional creators that disagreed with Waid?
People should get more into Euro comics. Seriously, I live in a shitty part of Europe and pretty much any really large store will have multiple shelves of comics and graphic novels (and another group of shelves for manga stuff).
>>78982745 >>78982774 I'm not saying it's a conspiracy. I know money is the reason the news sites give all the press to DC/Marvel.
But what's Diaz' excuse?
My issue is that these same sites will routinely run articles and opinion pieces about the state of comics and how it needs to change to be more inclusive or we're all gonna die yadda yadda yadda. I don't just mean CBR/Newsarama either, I mean the up-their-own-ass socially conscious Comic Alliance and Mary Sues who supposedly know better but are in fact completely clueless.
For example: Ava's Demon. I can't recall a single website that's reported on the success of a single, independent female creator with a substantial fanbase who has raised over a half million dollars via Kickstarter to support her own female lead, non-superhero book.
No matter how you feel about the book, that's a pretty impressive accomplishment.
You'd think they would be parading that around as a "SEE IN UR FACES CAPE LOVING SCUM" but they're oblivious.
They just continue to bitch about what race/gender is writing what 20k niche c-level that they don't even support anyways.
>>78982848 >They don't want to do the legwork to find what they would like. Most people don't, that's why it's a niche. You need to be already interested a little to discover something that interest you specifically. If it was the same for books, nobody would read.
>>78982991 I think capes are more like a style. Not genre or medium.
Cape is when your characters all have unique abilities, looks and personas interlinked. Overwhelmingly special snowflakes in cast is what makes cape a cape, nobody is the same except by accident or deliberately designed as a knock-off.
Iron Man is cape because he's the only one, put his armour in mass production and you have just military science fiction with power armour. Starship Troopers or Warhammer are not capes because there are many of those basically the same.
Zatanna is cape because she's unlike anyone else empowered. Harry Potter is not cape because every wizard is basically drawing from the same pool of abilities.
Spain, actually. But yeah, my problem is more often to filter which comics are good than to find non-cape comics, because non-capes were always majority. Honestly, until the Marvel movies boomed, finding cape comics required a lot more actual looking.
Easiest way to make sure nobody will ever take any point you raise seriously. You wanna talk about issues in the comic industry? Do research, write an article, get it published in a news outlet or on a personal blog.
Twitter is for idiots telling other idiots what they're eating or that they ran out of toliet paper and are stuck in the bathroom, not for dissemination of actual arguments.
>>78983089 Mostly to me if it's just beating one villain then you're not cape but if it's a continuous battle against evil in general you are. Individuality does play a role but you start splitting hairs if you get too specific with that and if a costume/hideout/secret identity are needed and other shit. GLC is still pretty cape despite not being unique, for example.
Well, we can acknowledge that struggling sales is the problem that leads to over saturation of superheroes in comics. The first step in addressing a problem is admitting it, right? And it is a real problem, not just for comics in general, but the superhero genre itself. Superheroes have been forced to take on a role they really aren't suited for. To me, the Max Fleischer cartoon was at the emotional level at which Superman functions best. But that's not enough when part of the audience that reads Superman is in their thirties and forties. Nah, Superman stories have to be pseudo realistic and drama focused. A writer can't just have Superman break into an evil genius' lair and wreck his lab equipment and fly away.
The characters also suffer from writers having to push the envelope too far. I mean, the Joker had to literally cut his own face off just to stay relevant. His psychosis becomes the main angle of his character, the clown makeup largely incidental. He's pushed as this dark, evil, grotesque symbol of humanity's desperate madness in modern depictions.
He's a fucking cartoon character from the 1940's. It's a clown that robs banks. Relax, people.
>>78983379 >Why assume it's about who posted it and not just honest discussion of the argument itself?
Because the OP would have just posed the question himself without going "HURR HE RITE" and posting a fucking Twitter screenshot. It's always about the faggot who said whatever. These threads the equivalent of click bait.
>>78983546 >You are the only one who cares about him
Sure yeah, that's why this thread is still alive. People are just taking the bait. Anyway, I'm out and thread hidden. I just need to remind you dumb cunts every now and then that social media allows parasites like Diaz to feed off your gawking.
More like indie-hipsters are incredibly lazy and expect to be rolling in dosh when they put out two issues in eight months about shit that is thoroughly unentertaining or interesting and then get pissy when it doesn't happen (never mind that comics will NEVER be profitable).
Entitled little shits need to look at Mignola and take notes.
>>78982848 >Especially if there's no large fanbase already attached. If I won the powerball I'd make a PSA about this sentence. They want to be seen as smart and popular for liking shit, which of course requires them to make sure it's always 100% safe so as to be as popular as possible
>>78983056 The irony is that Diaz and his ilk put more effort into trying to kill Ava's Demon than they ever did to promote it. WE were the ones promoting it.
I got news for you, they say the want this stuff but they only really want it if they or one of their friends is behind it. This is shallow clique shit disguised as progressiveness and egalitarianism.
Sure, there is the "Big Two" who sell a lot more than other publishers because they have (as others said) a niche market or corned the market with popular characters.
So? What's stopping other companies from making their own "capeshit"? The answer: nothing.
Genre aside, people want great characters and character development. We want engaging stories with unexpected twists or surprises. We want great art to immerse us into the world. We want great storytelling. Genre really shouldn't matter - capes or no capes.
>>78984090 yeap. just like gaming. the industry is very diverse. however these assholes, have no actual awareness of what is out there for content. There are many comics out there, not superhero releated. Even by the big two. however, these comics often just barely squeak by or don't at all. Because assholes like Diaz, who make posts like that, insisting Capes are choking comics, while never in his life is even aware of Fell's five, Skullkickers, or the like. its only when the clique makes something, that they take notice, and pimp each other.
how did these assholes not support Prez? Gotham Academy?
>>78983016 Diversity in cultural stuff is always a good thing. Even if I barely read any european comics nowdays, I'm quite happy to have access to a large range of comics, being european, american or japanese. Even if comics is not that big a market in France, at least, we got diversity.
Do you remember back in 1998 when Danger Girl and Battle Chasers were getting higher orders than most superhero comics? It obviously didn't last long and not because of superhero comics, but mainly because they weren't out with much consistency.
>>78984297 I'd says that's a pretty big market compared to the US: according to figures from http://www.du9.org/dossier/structure-du-marche/ and http://blog.comichron.com/2014/07/comics-and-graphic-novel-market-reaches.html the comic market in France is ~400M€ and 870M€ in US+Canada, keeping in mind that France's pop is 66M and Us+Canada 350M On the other hand, compared to the rest of the cultural industry, I agree it's not a lot (http://www.ey.com/FR/fr/Industries/Media---Entertainment/Panorama-des-industries-culturelles-et-creatives)
>>78984118 >So? What's stopping other companies from making their own "capeshit"? The answer: nothing. It's already an over saturated genre.Why would the average customer buy a hyperman book when superman,sentry and captain marvel exist.
>Genre aside, people want great characters and character development. We want engaging stories with unexpected twists or surprises. We want great art to immerse us into the world. We want great storytelling. Genre really shouldn't matter - capes or no capes The ongoing never-ending nature of superhero comics forces writers to adhere to the status quo. Furthermore in order to appeal to the target audience of the superhero genre writers tend to have to feature stereotypes and clichés common in the genre.
1. ALMOST 100% OF THE SUPERHERO GENRE COMES FROM THREE PUBLISHERS AND ONE OF THEM IS VALIANT SO IT MIGHT AS WELL BE JUST TWO. This is nearly universally overlooked, but "superheroes" at this point basically just means "Marvel and DC". Even the titles that have nothing to do with superheroes, like Punisher or (Dan Slott's) Silver Surfer, get called "cape" just because they're published by those companies.
2. MARVEL AND DC PUBLISH LESS THAN 100 TITLES BETWEEN THEM. IF YOU THROW ON VALIANT IT'S JUST AROUND/OVER 100. YET THE INDUSTRY PUBLISHES WELL OVER 500 BOOKS PER MONTH. This is the most important thing that gets overlooked. Capes don't even make up all that large of a percentage of the industry. And yet this myth that "most comics are superheroes" keeps being perpetuated by even faggots in the industry itself.
3. MOST COMICS ARE SCI-FI OR HIPSTER SHIT. And here's the kicker. I've never seen anyone complain about the amount of sci-fi in comics even though it genuinely IS overwhelming the medium. No one in the industry complains about the number of sidecuts even though there are many times more than spandex tights. If you want to read modern comics you basically have three choices: Sci-fi that's so bad it'd never be given the time of day in any other medium, sjwfaggotry, or soap opera about writer self-inserts impaling each other and severing each other's limbs. Exceptions to this are extremely rare to the point of being noteworthy just for existing. This problem more than anything else is what's restricting comics from being more popular.
>>78984850 I had read part of the du9's article but didn't know about the us market. Thanks for the info and the links. The market is still not big enough for the french production. A lot of scenarists and artists barely earn anything.
>>78984118 >So? What's stopping other companies from making their own "capeshit"? The answer: nothing. They are already doin't it. Never heard of Invincible, The Darkness, Witchblade (more than a 100 issues each)... This is not about market and the possibility for other publishers to earn their share of it. It's about diversity.
The problem of genre is that, if you don't like cape comics or want something else, you have less choices, and apart from the Walkind Dead, a lot of those comics don't last long.
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