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Secret Wars #9
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You are currently reading a thread in /co/ - Comics & Cartoons

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Storytiming this again for those that missed it
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reminder that hickman is going to be rewriting and probably having ribic redraw bits and pieces of the series for the trade. hopefully that makes it better
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This whole Wakanda scene is confusing me with the timeline
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What a piece of shit final issue.
Thanks for wasting your time OP.
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Miles/Peter scenes were gold in this
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>>78962218
>>78962235
>>78962271
>three pages literally redrawn from new avengers #1

this is so fucking bad. those three pages could've been used to make the panther-doom fight better
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>>This issue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rmUq1a4VG4
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>>78962080
This scene is so much better in DK2 but that type of scene always does work.
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So were the delays down to art or because Hickman had no idea what he was doing?
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Fin
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>>78962440
Art
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>>78962440
It's almost certainly the art.
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>>78962456
as touching as this last page is, it blows that bendis spoiled it
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>>78962456
>Everything Lives
Holy shit I'm platinum mad.
Fuck you, Hackman, you piece of shit.
This event was so fucking bad, I swear to God. Gonna re-read the original Secret Wars now, at least that one had some effort put into it.
Fuck everything.
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>>78962488
Yeah what the fuck was that about? They let this come out but Miles being saved due to a cheeseburger was top secret hush hush?

Fucking Bendis
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>>78962491
Don't worry, Civil War 2 will surely be worse.
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>>78962380
The point of the scene is to show things changed, you idiot.

That those three Wakandans didn't get fucked up by Black Swan and that the future looks optimistic.
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>>78962456

Man, look at those colors. The photoshop pencil is literally painting outside the panel.

Also, almost every Maker scene is rehashed from the ultimates.
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>>78962440
Art.

Some of those issues were extra sized (ie issue 1 and 2 were double sized) so everything took a lot longer.

I'm honestly glad they used Esad Ribic for the whole event. I'd rather have 1 whole artist do the event book instead of 3 like in AXIS.
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>>78961993
I dig the big robot battle here between Doom and T'Challa
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>>78962456
>Everything lives
>Multiverse and all the universes that used to populate it are completely gone, most of them aren't even recreated.
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>>78961835
>>78962048

So is maker dead? Or does he end up in the 616?
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Not a bad ending, really.

I'm just confused why the rest of the cast was involved. Carol was there to be Sinister's mind slave? We needed 2 Spidermen to visit the Molecule Man instead of just one? Cyclops Phoenix tagged along just to die? All that could have better time spent on Namor and T'Challa, or Ben and Johny. Or building Maximus' rebellion. Or more interaction between the Reeds.

The story seems like it ended well, but the story was incomplete. Or maybe I don't get it because I didn't buy enough tie ins.
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>>78962488
>>78962518
>Bendis shenanigans probably forced Hickman to change his story.
>Bendis got to delay Uncanny X-men 600 and blame it on relaunch.
>Bendis gets his favorite character that only he can write an on-going for shoehorned into main continuity.
>Bendis gets away with everything.
>Bendis will always win.
Bendis is love, Bendis is life.
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The ending is really fucking weird in terms of the F4

I don't buy that either Reed and Sue would do that before talking to Ben and Johnny.
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Interview regarding this issue: http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/hickman-brevoort-discuss-secret-wars-end-ushering-in-the-new-marvel-universe

>Mosaic page was done because of time constraints
>Brevoort: I remember, we went back and forth between it being the Time Gem or the Reality Gem.
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>>78962322
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what does this mean

the beyonders actually destroyed everything and the new multiverse is still built from the scraps?

richards and the future foundation + molecule man become the gods of the multiverse?
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>>78962859
He ends up in 616. He's the main antagonist of New Avengers.
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and what the fuck did tchalla do? what was the whole purpose of that time travel part?
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The ending was pretty rad.
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>>78963204
to show the restored 616 timeline is nearly identical to the previous one.
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>>78963214
Get the fuck out, Hickman.
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>>78963252
cry more hackman fag
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I'm gonna miss Black Swan...
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>>78962872
as much as I love hickman secret wars is practically an excuse for him to fanboy the FF4

read it as a continuation of their comics.

>>78963246
is he even aware that that's not his native reality?

Do all the survivors know?
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>>78963153
>the beyonders actually destroyed everything and the new multiverse is still built from the scraps?
No, technically, Doom destroyed everything. They were planning to destroy 100% of the multiverse. Instead, Doom beat them to it by destroying 99.999999% of the multiverse.

Richards is using the power of the Beyonders + Franklin's ability to create universes (as he did at the end of Onslaught Saga, and earlier in Hickman's FF) + Molecule Man as the anchor.

Basically:
>Franklin imagines the basis for a universe
>Reed uses the beyonders' powers to make it real
>Owen splits a piece of himself off to anchor that universe with the rest of the multiverse
Presumably Franklin is basing the new universes they're creating off of the different domains from Battleworld and ones from pre-SW.
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>>78962152

Someone tried to be Frank Quitely and failed hard.
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>>78962179
God, Doom is such a cuck.
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>>78963359
I would take Ribic over Quitely any day of the week
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>>78963335
and that's how Marvel justifies why there's no Fantastic Four anymore, because they are playing Lego with the multiverse
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>>78962340
Its nice that the spider-men were some of the very few survivors of the old multiverse
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>>78963335
I still think the multiverse is going to be the same for the most part. Can't see the writers renumbering everything instead of just checking the numbers off a wiki or something. We already have references to the main universe being 616 in ANAD.
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>>78963324
>read it as a continuation of their comics.
Ending, actually. They outright said in the interview today that Secret Wars is supposed to be "The Final Story of the F4." It's the conclusion. Doom and Reed have their final battle. Franklin becomes God. Doom's face is finally healed. Reed and Sue have their happily ever after. The Future Foundation become multiversal explorers. No longer having the responsibility of the F4, Ben and Johnny can follow their dreams (going to space for Ben and becoming an Avenger for Johnny).

And of the supporting characters, Namor and Black Panther played the biggest roles.
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>>78963335
>Owen splits a piece of himself off to anchor that universe with the rest of the multiverse

Fun thing, Starlin introduced a cosmic role that was exactly this in one of his cosmic sagas. Can't remember the name.
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>>78963148
10/10
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>>78963478
The lack of Ben and Johnny in this comic however makes that all really fucking weird.
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>>78963445
Please, Marvel writers have no time for fact checking.
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>>78963478
Reed actually didn't even do much in this event desu
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What in the flying fuck was the One-Above-All doing for at this fucking time? If they say the Beyonders killed God, fuck them.

Fuck Marvel.
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>>78963534
I'm just saying this creates more issues instead of fixing them. You're just going to get more confused people. Hell, I find Secret Wars almost unreadable with the amount of questions it raises.
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>>78963511
Yeah. I'll let Ben slide considering he at least got his big moment of fist fighting Galactus, but Johnny really got the shaft. We got the one scene where they talk about him being the sun but he never even gets one actual line.

Of course, Johnny getting the shaft and having his spot taken by Spider-man is at least staying true to Hickman's vision of the F4.
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Why was Maker even in this event
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>>78963478
>the conclusion

for now.
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>>78963577
Considering he's a metaphor for people creating comics.....you know...
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>>78963577
>What in the flying fuck was the One-Above-All doing for at this fucking time?
Making and releasing Secret Wars. That's a pretty stupid fucking question to be quite honest family. OAA is just Marvel Comics.
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>>78963600
It just feels weird because it is historically the solid rock that is the 4 of them that overcome that overcome Victor and his flaws but this is just like NAH
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>>78963483
Atlez.

I wonder how pissed Starlin is that Doom BTFO'd thanos and the ending basically changed the timeline while he's still off writing OGNs that are supposed to take place right before Secret Wars.
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>>78963577
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>>78963666
For Hickman, the Fantastic Four are Reed, Doom, Val, and Franklin. Good luck getting him to give a fuck about any of the other F4.
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>>78963711
I guess it makes sense then the only comic of his I have liked most of is Secret Warriors.
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>>78963670
That would imply that he cares.
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Few things were kind of stupid about this; they only had a chance because Owen kept helping them basically, even when he had no reason to do so, and pretended to act neutral later on.

Realistically it might have ended with Reed beating other Reed, if Owen didn't save his ass.
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>>78963670
Considering how they raped the character post-cancerverse, he's probably desensitized to it by now
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>>78963796
>>78963796
owen probably got bored of being inside the planet for years.

he's my favorite character of this mega arc by far. he had the hypest reveal and was always a weird fuck.
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>>78962456
How would that change to Victor abandoning Latvertia as a ruler to the whims of various international organizations that probably answer to people that don't have Latvertia's interests first and foremost on their minds when they "help?"
If anything he would be alot more benevolent and lenient or at least setup competent leaders before leaving.
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>>78962456
You have ten seconds to explain why scar-less Doctor Doom isnt your husbando.
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>>78963359
>tried to be Frank Quitely
>failed hard.

Sounds like they succeeded to me
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>>78963600
I completely forgot about that and I was even expecting him to drop out the sky to wreck the battlefield after being freed while still a sun.
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>>78962340
This felt so underwhelming, and it could have been such a big scene if it wasn't for the delay
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>>78964080
I'm sure he left a battalion of doombots
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>>78963845
He said he liked Thanos Rising (meh) but stayed silent about stuff like infinity. Maybe he's old enough now that he just stopped caring and is just doing what he can to gloriously wank Thanos one final time.

It's cool that he got Alan Davis and Ron Lim on board too.

>>78963752
Thanos has been his baby for decades. He probably cares a little.
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>>78964318
Never underestimate Bendis ruining everything. If there were Doombots then one of them would have taken over the country.
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>>78962456
This was a great Fantastic Four Arc, and if you treat it as such it is one of the best...

but in context it blows.
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>>78964681
You can't market it as that if you want it to sell
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>>78964681
>in context
If you treat it as the actual context, it IS a F4 story, and always has been. Even Hickvengers was a blatant F4 story.

The only context that says otherwise is Marvel's marketing. And who gives a shit what they say?
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>>78963335
>Zombie Universe
>Deadpool kills Marvel Universe
>A lot of fucked up universe

On the other hand
>All the damage Slott did on Spider-verse is now undone.
>Mayday might even have her dad back.

Sucks that that cuckoldry was a plot point for the story and how retarded it is that only know Franklin mcguffin powers play a role again, especially since Eternity and the Living Tribunal got BTFO and the Beyonders were never confirmed to be 100% death, we just assume so because of Doom...nevermind this is too retarded.

As a FF story 10 / 10
As an event 7 /10 but this was honestly the best event Marvel has done in over 25 years.
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This is kind of stupid to me desu. I was under the impression Doom/Molecule man lacked the power to just undo everything/recreate everything that was. At the very least Doom allowing 616 Susan and Valeria to die seems ooc.

Were the Beyonders all dead despite the time machine bomb failing? Why is there even a conflict between Doom and Reed if nothing is really standing between the two of them fixing everything. Not doing so makes a lot more sense if Doom's reality is hiding somewhere outside space/time.
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>>78964799
>Even Hickvengers was a blatant F4 story
It wasn't until the last month or two
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>>78964726
>>78964799
>It is a F4 story
Except it was centered around the avengers for the most part. Rightclops never got to do shit, and sucks hard that it never came into play.

F4 panels were worth about 5 comics at best.

It could had been much better, it is not worth the $200 or so worth of comics that it spawned.

It is practically Dark Reign FF, Time Runs out, and not all of it, and SW. The rest is fun as well but not important.

I wanted to be better so I could justify spending that much on collecting the entire series before some retard assumes I am somewhat upset.
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>>78964799
>Even Hickvengers was a blatant F4 story
is it? Part one is an Avengers story about a universal war, part 2 is mostly about Black Panther then turns into Tony vs Steve out of nowhere. Just like SW is about whatever and suddenly turns into Reed vs Doom in the last issue out of nowhere. Doom and Reed weren't even enemies before this, Doom was taking was taking care of his daughter and supposedly reformed after the end of Future Foundation.
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>>78964864
>Were the Beyonders all dead despite the time machine bomb failing?

Remember when Gillen (or was it fraction?) wrote the last issue of uncanny x-men explaining what was going on inside Cyclops head during AvsX climax? We need something like that.

I would like to believe this was all a ruse, and only the physical entities of Eternity, Celestials, Master Love, Hate, Order, and Chaos were destroyed but outside reality itself they, Odin, God, etc, and the 80's Beyonder were spectating the events and this was all a plan to fix the fractured multiverse after so much fucking meddling caused by reckless time traveling, and multidimensional breaching.

Imagine an ascended version of molecule man with a near infinite amount of mouths commentating on the matter with them as well.

That would me very happy.
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>>78964148
Too perfect. I like flaws in my husbandos.
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>>78965105
>>78964971
Did y'all even read New Avengers? Even when it wasn't about Reed, that was pure F4 shit. And it was obviously the more important book of the two the entire time.
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>>78965237
New Avengers felt like a Black Panther book anon
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>>78965208
His new flaw is Bendis dialogue.
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>>78965237
The main characters of New Avengers were essentially Black Panther, Namor, and maybe Black Bolt, all of whom are F4 characters.
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>>78964839
>this was honestly the best event Marvel has done in over 25 years
Woah there anon, let's not get ahead of ourselves. It was pretty good in comparison to their other events, but it's still nowhere near as good as The Onslaught Saga
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>>78965237
Refresh my memory but I don't remember but a handful of panels, and exactly 2 comics centered on Reed, and it was mostly to shut down fan theories and fan observations before the Ayy Lmaos were formally introduced.

Before you go on an autistic rampage and call me a retard etc, I am admitting I don't remember most of it, I am not being an asshole, I am being honest, I do not know what you are talking about.
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>>78965237
>Even when it wasn't about Reed, that was pure F4 shit.
Now you're just making shit up.
Reed and Beast were like THE most sidelined characters in the book, even more so for the former since he was in outerspace in the F4 book. And during and after Infinity it basically because the Panther/Namor series with special guest stars Dr. Strange and Black Bolt.
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>>78965366
Oh back when the X-men were pure hype.
That was stupid yet awesome.
This was pretty good, but $300 USD to collect the entire series, Marvel can fuck off....however in the 5 years it takes the series to hit Marvel Unlimited, it is going to be fucking awesome. Possibly the time of Avengers IW Part 2.

I still liked convergence better
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>>78961946
>Cover shows the birth of Namor
>Namor dies in the comic

Muh poetry.
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>>78965237
Yeah, main Avengers is mostly irrelevant compared to it as far as story is concerned. It seems like F4 shit only because that's how Hickman writes. In its content if anything its a story about Namor and Panther.

>>78965188
Seemingly Doom did have the power to fix everything all along himself and didn't do so because of his own emotional hangups. Its implied with that "keeping everything too close shit" Reed was going on about. Seems like a contrived plot mechanism to me. Battleworld was a lot less organised and controlled than Latveria, if Hickman had made the parallel that Doom was turning the universe into a version of his Latveria earlier it would make a lot more sense.
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>>78964681
When people say this I always have to say back: If it's an FF story where the hell is Johnny? What did Ben do?

Most of these issues centered around other characters. It's a DOOM story, that's for sure. But an FF one? Hell no. Maybe a Hickman one where all he does is pit Reed against muh Doom but not in any other way.

It's not even that good, I'd say but I'll stop here before people accuse me of being just a hater.
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>>78965369
>>78965491


Like >>78965317 said, most of the whole cast was F4 related. Beast and Strange were never in the center of the plot, so it was basically F4 and Tony. That's why I said "even when it wasn't focusing on Reed."

And with both books, despite the characters, it was the same kind of shit he was writing about in F4. It wasn't your typical Avengers fare, but more sci-fi, cosmic shit. The kind of stuff usually dealt with by, yup! The Fantastic Four.

Also, anon - I'm sorry /co/ has gotten to the point where you have to preemptively defend against being called a retard or asshole. There's no shame in asking questions.
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>>78965637
>Reed vs Doom is not a F4 story
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>>78965555
the impression I got was that it was taking most of Doom's accumulated power to keep Doomworld together, but at any time he could have just let go, allow Battleworld to fall apart like the crime against nature it was, and start rebuilding the multiverse
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>>78965653
>and Tony
With the exception of like 2 issues, Tony had about as much to contribute as Beast and Strange. Maybe less. Tony didn't even appear in the majority of Time Runs Out. Tony was important to Avengers, but really his main purpose in New Avengers was just to act as a link between the two titles.
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>>78961835
I'm sad that OG Beyonder appeared fuckall anywhere. I wanted him to be here.
>>78962048
His whole speech bothers the fuck out of me. And really makes me miss how Fialkov set him up. I am well aware Ultimate Reed had a bad run-in with his zombie self, but dear lord, he still had some mild compassion when he went full-maker and was under Fialkov's pen. Bendis even added a bit to this (though I am not a fan of Bendis's writing) when he had Ult Reed go to 616 momentarily. I'm actually really not a fan of this retarded betrayal. I have no qualms about the death though, that's alright.
>>78962859
Dead but remade.
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>>78965555
Wow QUADS!

But back on topic, that is fucking retarded because Hickman itself wrote a redeemed doom. Reed and Doom argument was pity as fuck, and the ending is unsatisfying. It comes out of nowhere.

I mean does that mean that Reed is more powerful than God with a capital G? Fucking bullshit. Franklin can dream universes but none of them can come with a plan to defeat the ayy lmaos?

Basically they were on Slott's stupid pills the whole ride, that is bad writing....still this as good as Marvel gets
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>>78965678
>Reed vs Doom is not a F4 story

It's not. Just because its headlining characters are ones associated with the F4 it doesn't mean its an F4 story.

For it to be a Fantastic FOUR story (emphasis on the four) it would need Sue to do something other than wank Doom all day, Ben to at least appear for more than 3 panels and for Johnny to exist or be acknowledged in any way.
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>>78965310
Flawed not retarded
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>>78962384

That fucking face
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>>78965555
ayyyyyyyy
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>>78965783
>shit, but as good as Marvel gets
Said they guy who spent the last 3 years invested in Hickman's 100+ issue Avengers story and likely read tie-ins too.
>>
>>78965829
There were so fucking many bad faces in this. Most of them being :O
>>
>>78965806
They were both there, even if not a substantial part of the story.

There have been plenty of F4 stories that don't feature all four of the original members.
>>
>>78965885
>doesn't like Ribic O face
Gay
>>
>>78965806
Johnny was acknowledged for rebelling then Doom making him the fucking sun of Battleworld as punishment.
>>
>>78965678
It really isnt. You kinda need the other 3 members of the 4 for it to be a f4 story
>>
>>78965653
Well to be specific it was a Reed, Valeria, Tchalla story with Orwen and Doom thrown in at the last minute before SW hits.
Stephen, and Namor, were supporting characters.
Everyone else was superfluous.

I guess it is a F$ story for the most part? I am frowning at the poor use of Rightclops.
>>
>>78965967
How many different F4 lineups have there been that didn't include one or more of Reed/Sue/Johnny/Ben?
>>
>>78965904
No good ones
>>
>>78965978
God why are cycuck gags the worst
>>
>>78965997
Spider-Man, Wolverine, Hulk, and Ghost Rider.
>>
>>78965859
It is not like that's all I did in that time, but you are not wrong.

I only bought 8 issues max, I read it off from /co/, I knew beforehand that Hickman could not deliver, the scope was too massive for Marvel, and a single writer. So I am still right
>>
>>78961835

>Secret War wraps up
>Another line wide event starts in may if you don't count all the build up

Fuck you guys if you actually pay for this
>>
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>>78966034
Cyke has always been a good character, why are you so mad? It sucks because phoenix is a big deal but an entity that operates outside the physical realm gets rekt the same way you cook a range chicken.

I could also talk about the maker who is underused and never gets to do shit.
>>
>>78965997
Except only reed was important in this. You at least need 4 people. A family of 4.
>>
>>78965715
He had Franklin and Owen there the whole time. Nothing changed but Reed as the conduit.
>>
>>78966125
>>Another line wide event starts in may if you don't count all the build up
Where the fuck have you been in the last decade? or are you slow or something?
>>
>>78961993
>>78962012


two gods with infinite power fighting and this is the best they can do with the art?
>>
>>78966157
>Luke's cycuck
>also likes evil reed.

Why am I not surprised at that shit taste
>>
>>78966219
No one but Morrison knows how to do depict shit like that. Very underwhelming...just like the event.
Never mind that the multiverse is repaired in a couple of pages, and with total ease, it also contradicts the entire "Multiversal Egg" thing form other books.
>>
>>78966201

I haven't been reading Marvel because I'm not a battered housewife
>>
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>>78965188
>they take bets who on the lifeboat will come out on top
>white Phoenix of the Crown Jean bets on Cyclops
>her reaction when he gets wrecked first
>>
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>>78966220
>Accusing anyone of having shit taste
>on a Marvel thread
It is like going inside a McDonald to criticize the happy meal.

Your pretentiousness is funny to me.
>>
Has there ever been another run so universally recognized as a disappointment? Not as an awful run mind you, but one that everyone felt let down by.
>>
>>78966335
For what I recon, no one here actually reads, so welcome friend, let's shitpost until the 404 stops us.
>>
>>78961835
You know what's funny, about EVERY little hype thing was fucking pointless. Thanos bringing down the wall? Pointless. Cyclops becoming Phoenix again? Pointless.
Thors betraying Doom? Pointless. Zombie Army? Entirely pointless! Heck even the domains themselves and plotting to betray Doom was entirely pointless! All this pointless was almost entirely comedic in a sense.
>>
>>78966278
>it also contradicts the entire "Multiversal Egg" thing form other books.
Let's just be fair. That the editor's fault more than anything, and given that the plot to Secret Wars was finished probably over a year ago, it's the other authors who slipped up, not Hickman.
>>
>>78966383
It's just Phoenix Egg posting without his trip.
>>
>>78963359
Neil Adams was the first to pull of pages like this.
>>
>>78963078
>Time constraints

Brevoort was being facetious- that page took a long time to craft. Zero space wasted
>>
>>78966463
Brightest Day, and Trinity war come to mind, but this still beats the both due to the scope and cast, but to be fair for SW to be worth the ENTIRE run of comics that precedes it, it would had need to be nothing short of a modern classic...so yeah the bar was set too high, and Marvel Editorial wanted this out of the door ASAP because they were not interested on making SW a good event only tubonerds would follow when trends are much more profitable.
>>
>>78963335
>Franklin's imagination
yeah I think many of the realities are based off Battleworld e.g. Red Wolf's native reality preserved/restored
>>
The one reason I don't mind Ben and Johnny getting the shaft is that they're also the two that aren't getting shelved for the foreseeable future. Johnny is a main character in two books (meaning he's actually getting MORE attention ) while Ben is a main character in one, cameoing in a bunch of others and has a rumored solo coming out.

This is a conclusion for Reed, Sue, and the kids. It is kinda ridiculous that Ben and Johnny just think they're dead though and at least Johnny deserved more attention in the book. He basically gets written out, then suddenly appears in one panel without explanation (I'm assuming BP summoned him?) and that's it. There should have been one scene, just one, where all four of them saw each other again at the end.

Honestly, the thing that bothers me the most about this is that one of the people who isn't coming back is Alex Power. The way that Power Pack has been quietly thrown out and nobody gives a fuck.

That and I wish we just had an epilogue issue, like Secret Wars: Fantastic Four or something. Like, go out with a celebration of the Fantastic Four, y'know? Just devote an issue to them giving their final fairwells to Ben and Johnny, bring some creative teams that have worked on them in the past a flashback scene.

I don't mind the F4 getting shelved, but they deserve more than they got on the way out.
>>
>>78962365
The delays were clearly caused by the artists being busy with detailing loli ass.
>>
>>78966463
Black Vortex? Spider-Gwen? Spider-Woman? GotG? Avengers Undercover? Also Iron Patriot and probably Bendis's Uncanny X-Men. Even New Warriors for what it did. Wasted potential the comic.
>>
>>78966830
If you're talking about Bendis GotG and Bendis's Uncanny X-men, I think you're highly overestimating the expectations placed into those comics. And even then, like the other anon said, in terms of scope none of those compare.
>>
>>78962456
Hm... When Thanos had it, the Inginity Gauntlet proved to be more powerful than Mephisto. And back in Secret Wars II' Owen Reece proved to be the second more powerful being in the multiverse, right under the Beyonder. So, yeah, the theory about Doom's face still works.
>>
>>78966828
eh, those like the Spider-man panels, probably traced.
>>
>>78966763
And why 616 would be the one that's identical, since it's the one they all actually knew.

Meaning that the ANAD 616 actually is a new universe, it's just exactly the same as the old 616 minus the whole incursion business didn't happen but since it's either the same or exact copies of the same characters, their memories of events are the same.

And all discrepancies are taken care of by the all-new all-different all continuity errors are Franklin and Reed's fault excuse.
>>
>>78965715
absolutely- with the exception that maybe he had to use Franklin as well for the imagination part
>>
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>>78967064
Ribic may copy previous work of his when trying to cut corners, but he doesn't trace.
>>
>>78961835
>Storytiming this again for those that missed it

Thanks, after reading it now I realize that I missed nothing worth of value.
>>
>>78966492
I thought that played up Doom's power to great effect. To Sub-Zero Thanos like that, to snap PhoenixClops's neck, to handle T'Challa in 5 pages- that shows that Doom is God...who still gets wrapped up in a tizzy with Reed. That is the point of all that
>>
>>78967365
Phoenixclops was classic jobbing.
>>
>>78967392
Phoenix is at best on par with Galactus. Who is a mosquito compared to Beyonder.

Infinity Gauntlet should've been able to beat him though, if Doom wasn't using full Beyonder powers, only Molecule Man ones.

But I don't remember how they retconned all those power levels, so it's stupid to argue about it.
>>
>>78963752
>That would imply that he cares.

>Jim "I retconned every defeat Thanos ever suffered to be a Thanos clone and not the real deal" Starlin doesn't care
>>
>>78967519
Regardless of the power levels phoenixclops was only done as a device to hype doom. Its annoying to X fans to not show it respect. Same with Thanos, a lot of build up just to end up as an afterthought.
>>
>>78967519
>if Doom wasn't using full Beyonder powers, only Molecule Man ones
He was using full Beyonder powers. They stole the Beyonders' powers like Doom did in the original Secret Wars, but on a way bigger scale. Molecule Man was containing the power, and Doom was siphoning it off of him. Doom's plan basically hinged on being best buds with the Molecule Man.
>>
>>78966492
Are you sure you're mad about comics, or are you having an existential crisis?
>>
this is a good fantastic 4 story

the biggest problem with it is that this fantastic 4 story had the burden of rebooting the entire marvel universe so they started off with a much larger cast than they needed to and it fucked with the pacing of the story extremely hard
>>
>>78967670
He got more awesome scenes than anyone else on the Life-Raft except for Black Panther and maybe Reed. His reason to be there was to lose to Doom to hype up how unstoppable he is, but the 3 issues he got was more interesting than most of what Bendis had managed in 3 years.

But what they're doing to him in post-SW is fucking criminal.
>>
>>78962034
>Doom and T'Challa slugging it out inside the sun
>>
>>78967781
>Molecule Man was containing the power, and Doom was siphoning it off of him. Doom's plan basically hinged on being best buds with the Molecule Man.

The fuck was the point of that, why not just have all of it inside of him? That's a pretty big Achilles heel.
>>
>>78968765
Doom wouldn't be able to handle it. One Beyonder maybe, but not multiple.
>>
>>78963148

lel fucking dead
>>
>>78962832
>aren't recreated
"Yet" is the key word.
>>
>>78968942
Tell that to the people who think this new infinite multiverse doesn't contain the same universes as the old one. At least nearly identical ones.
>>
>>78966048
You still read it. You literally just said you went into it knowing it would suck. On the low end, it was 100 issues - great usage of your time, just so you could shit post on a few threads.

Why not read something you think you might like?
>>
>>78968415
It's sad that the only good Cyclops we got was done by Hickman in less than 10 pages throughout the whole event. And then he just died.
>>
>>78964351
Yeah, Thanos Rising did do justice to the character. Shame how they used that background in infinity.

I like the OGNs he's making. His stuff still has that 90s marvel cosmics vibes
>>
>>78969539
>Thanos Rising did do justice to the character

How is turning Thanos into Jeffrey Dahmer "doing justice" to the character
>>
>>78964839
>As an event 7 /10 but this was honestly the best event Marvel has done in over 25 years.

I contest that statement with the Messiah trilogy
>>
I'm confused about the Molecule Men and Doom subplot.

1) The Molecule Men were originally intended to be time bombs right? Molecule Man wanted to stop the Beyonders' plan, but him killing off one of the Molecule Men actually triggered the incursion, hastening the Beyonders' plan. So why would he send Doom to kill more of him?

2) How does the whole stealing the Beyonders' powers work? It's too powerful that MM needs both him and Doom to contain it? Why doesn't MM just reconstruct the multiverse as is once it's destroyed?

3) Why couldn't MM and Doom have extracted the Beyonders' powers sooner?
>>
>>78970134
Oh, and
4) What does it mean for each slice of MM to anchor the new universes created by Reed/Franklin?
>>
I don't get why they felt the need to retcon out the incursions.

They could of simply had Earth Prime be the same as 616 except that "Time runs out" and "Last Days" comics never happened and Miles is around because Molecule Man. I don't see the need to alter things back to New Avengers #1.
>>
>>78970311
Did shit like infinity still happen or did it just happen differently? I'm wondering how much has been actually affected.
>>
>>78964244
>I completely forgot about that and I was even expecting him to drop out the sky to wreck the battlefield after being freed while still a sun.

Me too. The only thing he got was T'Challa and Doom dropping by his station at the core of the sun in their pointless battle.
>>
>>78970134
>2) How does the whole stealing the Beyonders' powers work? It's too powerful that MM needs both him and Doom to contain it? Why doesn't MM just reconstruct the multiverse as is once it's destroyed?

MM can physically handle the power but he's too crazy and mentally weak so he needs Doom or Reed to boss him around.
>>
Secret Wars 009 (2016) (digital) (Oroboros-DCP)
http://www94.zippyshare.com/v/kM4XwcUr/file.html
>>
>>78962887
Bendis deserves something for making the best Spider-Man run in a continuity that wanted nothing but edgy-ness. We either forgive him for his transgressions or let him keep one bit from the universe he kept afloat, since we all hate him already he might as well get his spider-boy.
>>
>>78966383
You sound more pretentious and butt-hurt than anybody else here... go die.
>>
>>78963577
Jack Kirby has too many angels to be banging to care about every little thing in the multi-verse.
>>
>>78966940
It makes even more sense. Doom still thinks he's horribly ugly so of course when he REMAKES EVERYTHING he makes his face as hideous. Probably some mindblock or something.
>>
>>78972832
>the best Spider-Man run

Meh.
>>
>>78971792

Why not just remake himself with enough mental power?
>>
>>78970134
the incursions were the backup plan for if a reality's Molecule Man didn't detonate, I thought.

and when Doom killed a Molecule Man prematurely, that Man didn't detonate, just died.
>>
>People actually try to defend this

Secret Wars fails as a culmination of Hickman's Marvel work, unless you completely ignore everything he did in Avengers run and just look at his FF run, and even then it's entirely underwhelming experience as the final F4 story, because all it does it do the same old Doom vs Reed song and dance, without really managing to say anything meaningful (surprise, surprise Hickman can not into emotions and strong engaging characterization), sidelining everybody else from F4 as mere props. Sue stands around as a trophy wife, Johnny gets no lines of dialog and is just said to be the sun, Ben is a giant whose most iconic scene is standing up only to get KO'd immediately, Valeria and co. of the Future Foundation are there just to spill some exposition. And I love how F4, which has always be "ah fuck Johnny and Ben, we don't need to tell them anything, they can go on thinking we're dead or whatever. That's family for you."

And considering how much space this story took, what with all the extra sized issues and whatnot, it's ridiculous how much Hickman just does shit off panel and just writes off people when they've done their plot relevant thing. Did anybody care when Namor died? No. Did Black Swan do anything of note? Fucking no.

If you think this was a good story, let alone a good event, you're working with really, really lowered expectations.
>>
>>78974361

nice pasta
>>
>>78971136
Seems like Time Runs out MAY have still happened, well the incursions at least, since there was the whole Doctor Spectrum thing with her still recalling how her Earth was destroyed by Illuminati. Also the Baxter building still seems to have been the F4's headquarters considering Johnny. I'm trying to recall if there was anything else, but I'm not sure. So Infinity may still have happened the way it did, oh and another change seems to be Tony reverting from when he was AXISed after his death prior to the Incursions. Stuff like his Inversion and Superior still happened, but... it's now no longer in effect because he was remade.
>>
>>78974361
Autism
>>
>>78974361
>If you think this was a good story, let alone a good event, you're working with really, really lowered expectations.

Can you really blame them when you consider every event since House of M? The only one that was good and held up was Annihilation and that wasn't what I'd call a summer event.

Even though I haven't been thrilled with most of Hickman's work for Marvel, I'd rather read Secret War over all of Bendis' events. And AvX and Fear Itself and Original Sin.
>>
>>78974571

But it's idiotic grasping at straws mentality. You should be able to acknowledge the inherent flaws in the story while saying you like it despite that, and maybe add that it's marginally better than other Marvel events of recent years. Even I can agree that SW was better than Original Sin, Secret AvX or Fear Itself, because all those stories were dumb. But that doesn't automatically make SW good, it just makes it more competently written, which is still far from being good.
>>
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So, Bendis won the Secret Wars with a fucking hamburger?
>>
>>78962034
>Hey Doom what's happening?
>Nah it's cool I'll just be the sun some more
>>
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>>78961993
>>78962456
>Blatantly swiping Dr. Who lines

"Where is my cheque please?"
>>
so phoenix-clops really died?
>>
>>78969539
>>78969598
It had a few glaring continuity errors but I thought Rising was okay. It got a little better by the third issue. Death just wouldn't fucking stop talking.
>>
>>78975847
No, I'm sure he'll show up later we just have to w--YES HE DIED. There was no doubt that he died the first time, Hickman doesn't give two shist about the Rightclops thing he was there just to show how massive Doom's cock is, just like Thanos and everyone else.
>>
>>78963382
What do you expect of guy who bangs blow-up doll?
>>
>>78962384
So is no one Hanna mention Franklin'so bulge...
>>
>>78976144

Franklin's got a world creating fetish, this is nothing new.
>>
>>78972832
>best Spider-Man run

But that's not Marvel Adventures, anon.
>>
>>78964839
>As an event 7 /10 but this was honestly the best event Marvel has done in over 25 years

That's not saying much anon, it was still fucking garbage.
>>
>>78964839
>As a FF story 10 / 10
>As an event 7 /10 but this was honestly the best event Marvel has done in over 25 years.

Wow, talk about having low standards, mate.
>>
>>78969257
>W-well you read it! That makes you stupid too, you can't criticize it!

Fuck off, you shill.
>>
>>78974388
>>78974433
STFU samefag, he's actually right.
>>
>>78963335

What happened to those Bey-onders after they got robbed of their multiverse destroying? Are they still around or what?
>>
>>78961973
What's going to get rewritten, the whole thing?
>>
>>78976778
I'm not saying you can't criticize it. I'm saying you're stupid for committing so much time to something you knew you were gonna hate.
>>
>>78961835
OP the sweetheart
>>
>>78963711
>implying you wouldn't read Science Adventures Straight Outta Latveria
>implying a book centered exclusively around those four wouldn't be dope
>>
>>78967125
>the History Monks excuse could be canon now

Terry Pratchett bleeding into Marvel = narrativum confirmed?
>>
>>78962365
>panel four is literally sue-us asking val-hickman how this makes sense and him admitting it doesn't, really

Kudos for a meta admission of your own mistakes.
>>
If Molecule man was so strong, why did they have him job to the Sentry? I can't even grasp powerlevels in Marvel.
>>
>>78962384
Why does Ribic consistently draw Valeria as being 9 to 11 instead of 3 or 4, which is what she should be?
>>
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>>78963148
You got me anon
>>
>>78961835
Actually, as an event, it was okay - great potential, decent delivery - better than most other marvel events on both counts.

But I love that Hickman did his own version of the Bat-epic, but for the FF, and really elevated them to center stage in a time where Marvel doesn't want anything to do with them.

Marvel tells him they won't use Reed in ANAD MU, and he makes him God of the Multiverse.

That's one way to stick up for your favorites.
>>
>>78978583
>really elevated them to center stage

It's an entirely empty and superfluous gesture.
>>
>>78978503
That was Bendis nonsense and Hickman retconned the Molecule Man and then powered him up even more with all of the Beyonders' power.
>>
>>78978583
Can you really say this was an FF event?

Reed was pretty useless for 8 issues of this and the other members didn't do shit
>>
>>78961946

Dammit Namor you can fly ffs.
>>
>>78974224
Oh, he still detonates. He just blows up that earth instead of the universe, though.
>>
>>78962193

In the end Galactus is the last. And Groot for some reason. How poetic.
>>
>>78962440
Both?
>>
>>78962559
Not him, but it doesn't excuse the lazy art. Although the whole book has huge tracing and QUALITY everywhere.
>>
>>78966940
>>78973286
Actually it works even better with the final issue because Doom actually does think himself flawed, he even admits yeah Reed could do a better job because he has a some humility and compassion.

>>78971792
>>78974094
He might not even be able to wield it without someone's help. He's too weak willed to even will himself stronger will power.

>>78970177
The new universe is different from the old one. The old one was created by TOAA via shenanigans.
This new one is made from the combined power of the Beyonders stored in MM. I figure Reed doesn't know how to make things extant devoid of himself so he leaves a slice of MM in each reality to act as an anchor to stop The Beyonders powers from leaking back into the White Void.

>>78970134
>3) Why couldn't MM and Doom have extracted the Beyonders' powers sooner?

Because the Beyonders were still alive and using their power.
It basically went
>Make time bomb with literal time machine
>Power it up with the force a thousands of MM
>It explodes and kills (or just traps them in statis) the Beyonders because they can't time travel relative to their perception.
>Their power is now theirs for the taking
>They store it up in the MM because he's a creation of the Beyonders and likely his powers operate similar to theirs anyway.
>>
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>>78966940

Interesting. Another theory of mine was Doom could create things that work to almost Reed Richards level of standards but they had a flaw or weren't perfect, such as a hastily thrown togehter Battleworld. Reed was able to perfect the solution as to why all of that power couldn't restore Doom's face and did that for Victor post reboot.
>>
>>78962080
did Thor just use a lightning bolt to split a head open? cause jesus christ that's pretty metal.
>>
>>78982437
>Reed was able to perfect the solution as to why all of that power couldn't restore Doom's face

It was due to Doom's inferiority complex. He felt unworthy of being God.

Oddly he didn't have that problem in the first Secret Wars, where he immediately fixed his face.
>>
>>78962340
Man fuck this whole delayed bullshit event, but Peter calling Miles Spider-Man gave me goosebumps. That was pretty neat.
>>
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>>78975026
I think hickman might have been referencing himself, actually.
>>
>>78962121
Note to self: Always keep a snack or three with hero costume.
>>
>>78974361
They've ALWAYS been props, bro. Reed is part of a group of characters who are the makers and shakers of the MU.

Ben, Sue, and Johnny are just plain jane everymen like Spider-Man.

That's the way it's always been.
>>
>>78961882
Is that roasted doom I'm smelling?
>>
>>78983496
That's one of the main uses for having a bunch of pouches. During the 90s, everyone had snacks on them at all times. The way that one of the most practical additions to super-hero costumes gets derided as "le feld 90s extreme XD" is criminal.
>>
>>78962012
>I knew it--but I wasn't really prepared for it.

Reed has survived the end of the multiverse and is now on a planet ruled by his nemesis Doctor Doom, who is God, and he is accompanied by an alternate version of himself who is both younger and immensely older as well as intensely sociopathic. Why does encountering the Molecule Man shock him now?

Or is he just saying that he forgot to bring Owen something to eat?
>>
>>78962456
I'll take it.
>>
>>78974361
Nice autism pasta
>>
>>78962193
I see ba da boom and all I think are jokes from the 80s
>>
>>78962559
That's too highbrow for this idiots, idk why you bother anon
>>
>>78972832
He wrote a very good Spiderman series by rewriting the best hits. But that's not the Spider-man he brought over.
>>
>>78961946

so that's how Namor dies?? what a shit death! I didnt even noticed the first time I read this!
>>
>>78984762
He got better, and then Hyperion killed him again.
>>
>>78965727
Yeah he really got the shaft overall, I expected him to have a more prominent because because in interviews he said he enjoyed to write Tony
>>
>>78962610
>I'm honestly glad they used Esad Ribic for the whole event. I'd rather have 1 whole artist do the event book instead of 3 like in AXIS.

This. Sudden art changes can be very jarring. I'd take delays over artist change any day,
>>
>>78962193
>>78962203
>>78962218
>>78962235
>>78962271
>>78962291
>Wakanda returns to her former glory
3 years of nothing plus 9 issues of FF Elseworlds was totally worth it
>>
So is Black Panther the only one who remembers because he had the stone? Or did he just use it to bring back Wakanda and forgot after he said It Worked?
>>
>>78986285
He almost certainly remembers everything.
>>
>>78977352
Dead, as far as we know.
>>
>>78986285
Why is everyone assuming the raft people forgot about battleworld?
>>
Overall pleased with the main title, even though a bunch of the tie-ins turned to garbage.
>>
>>78994075
The main title was garbage too, anon. Overall a complete waste of time.
>>
Okay, yo, wait one fucking minute here.

If T'challa went back in time to New Avengers #1 and prevented everything that happened...and shifting the Marvel Universe in a new direction...

Why the fuck, in Squadron Supreme, is everyone accusing Namor of destroying their planet?

In theory, none of the incursions ever happened (because T'challa stops the Illuminati from doing everything) AND all worlds haven't really...existed? Reed is spinning off an entirely new multiverse now.

The Squadron's world never existed...why do they remember the pre-SW 616?
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>>78982494
Because Doom while prideful isn't dumb.
In the first SW it was largely his own efforts that got him into that position. While in this one the stakes were MUCH higher and he basically lucked into it.
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>>78998072
How did Doom find the Molecule Man, again? Was it the Mad Thinker's work following the resonance of the rock?
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>>78995992
they were already outside time, thus didn't get retconned like they should have
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>>78995992
the incursions never happen because they already happened. once the incursions stopped happening it was safe to rebuild the multiverse, because the mechanism causing the incursions had been halted.
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>>78983496
You'd think every Marvel hero would have learned how useful it is to keep a couple of Hostess Fruit Pies in the pocket by now.
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>>78962404
Woof, serious "Eye of the Beholder" face on Valeria in the upper-left corner.
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>>78998716
Doom reformed his body after it was destroyed while trying to find the mapmaker's weakness. He found out Reece was an incursion magnet/ universal bomb and that he had to kill him off in every earth to throw a wrench into the Beyonders' plans.
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>>78964864
It's basically what >>78965715 says. The multiverse was trying to heal itself the entire time, but Doom wasn't letting it. He was trying to squeeze everything together as tightly as possible, when all he really needed to do was let go. Owen even mentions in one of the earlier issues that he can feel the tectonic plates in Battleworld shifting and grinding against one another. As soon as I read that comment, it was clear to me that all of the universes that Battleworld was built from were trying to expand outwards and rebuild themselves, but they couldn't because they were being confined together in a small space with no room to grow.

Doom and Strange believed they'd mostly failed because they were only able to save an infinitesimal fraction of everything that existed, but that was all they needed to do! Saving a few tiny pieces of the multiverse was enough to save the entire superstructure, or at least those universes in their entirety. Those pieces already contained the seeds of their respective universes within them, since all the matter and energy in those pieces would've had a causal link to something else from the universe they were taken from. The only reason the people in those universes didn't remember anything from before Battleworld was because Strange wiped their minds. And judging by the fact that a few characters had flashbacks to their old universes, or an indefinable sense that something was wrong somehow, it's clear those memories still existed in some form, just buried.
>>
>>78999851 cont'd
For example, the domain of Battleworld we see in Civil War has Skrulls in it, because there were Skrulls in the area of that universe that was saved from the multiversal collapse. So even though that domain only consists of North America, which is infinitesimally small by universal standards, the matter/energy there still 'remembers' the Skrull homeworld, which means it also remembers all the other worlds that the Skrulls affected, and all the worlds they affected, and so on. By extension, that means the fabric of reality in that domain remembers everything about the universe it was once part of.

That was just one of the more obvious examples I could think of, but the same applies for all the domains. Ultimately, everything in every universe is connected, so as long as the tiniest piece of a universe still exists, that whole universe still exists. If you trace back the history of every molecule and atom and sub-atomic particle in each domain, you'd find links to the 99.999999% of those universes that weren't incorporated into Battleworld, meaning the rest of those universes still existed as information. All they needed was energy to help them grow, that's why Molecule Man was always hungry. He didn't really gain nourishment from the burger in the way that a human would normally metabolize calories from food, it's more that the burger was a tiny piece of leftover energy from Universe 1610 that recharged him a little.
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>>78962384
Holy shit I just realized, that they are the son, the father, and the holy spirit well played Hickman, well played.
>>
>>78999878 cont'd
The problem is, Doom has a compulsive need to control everything, so he wasn't willing to simply let nature take its course. And however much he claimed otherwise, it's clear that at least on a subconscious level, he enjoyed being God and ruling over all of existence in its entirety, however small and limited of an existence it was. So he kept expending all of his energy trying to force the pieces of Battleworld to stay together, despite the fact that they were all trying to break apart from one another, when he should've been letting them break apart and using that energy to help them regrow themselves.

So when Reed gains control of Molecule Man's powers, he realizes that literally all he has to do is LET GO, and the multiverse is restored.

Basically, the multiverse needed a gardener to plant the universe seeds and water them. Doom wanted to keep those seeds locked away in a sterile container for eternity; Reed realized that they need to be given light and space and nutrients to grow into trees. And that perfectly displays the fundamental difference between Doom and Reed, played out on the largest scale possible. Their conflict has never just been about Doom's pride, or his jealousy of Reed's family life, or Reed supposedly being responsible for scarring Doom's face. All those things intensified their rivalry, but they're not what the rivalry is about. The difference between them has always been the difference between rigidity and flexibility, stasis and change, control and creativity. Even the contrast of their powers, metal against rubber, is reflective of that. And that difference rooted in their fundamental outlooks on life: Doom is ultimately a cynic and a pessimist at heart, a man who believes that survival is the only thing that truly matters. In contrast, Reed is an optimist and a dreamer, a man who doesn't just feel but knows, on an intuitive level, that a better world is possible. That is the fundamental conflict between them.
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>>78963478
and 3 days later Namor is dead
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>>79000239
BRAVO
R
A
V
O
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>>78963391
Yuck
>>
readin
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>>78966278
>the entire "Multiversal Egg" thing form other books.
???
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>>78962859
>>78963185
>>78965738
Wait that raises a good point. How the fuck is he in 616? Miles is explicitly because Owen owed 'im.
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>>79006926
the guy is an expert on getting out of impossible places.
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>>78962080
Only upon the second reading do I realize how brilliantly in-character this KEIKAKKU is.
>>
There is no explanation here as to why Tony Stark has become a retard in the new MU.
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>>79008155
Yes there is. That's how Franklin brought him back.
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>>78962179

>Doom admitting he's wrong.

>Reed not fucking up

What is this writing?
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>>79006926
Battleworld exists as a real place, so people were able to escape. I think the real gift that Owen gave him was bringing his family and Ganke to 616.
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>>79008222
>Franklin only ever saw Tony drunk before so assumed he acted like that 24/7
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>>78963391
Seconded desu senpai.
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>>78963214
I agree friend
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>>79008264
I love being able to blame everything on Franklin now
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>>78962389
FUCKIN GRIMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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>>78962887
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>>79000239
>I just realized, that they are the son, the father, and the holy spirit
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>>78970311
A lot of shit still happened, given that the Squadron Supreme comic exists and is based off of a lot of it.
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>>79000323
A very good analysis. Never thought about that.

DO you guys know if Cyclops will return? Or is he dead-dead?
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>>78974361
>And considering how much space this story took, what with all the extra sized issues and whatnot, it's ridiculous how much Hickman just does shit off panel and just writes off people when they've done their plot relevant thing.
I didn't even read Hickman's FF/A/NA and this pissed me off.
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>>78965885
Faggot
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>>78962152
god this page is garbage
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>>78999851
>>78999878
>>79000323
Alright wiseguy why's Universe-1610 dead then.
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>>78966807
You are the only person in this thread with common sense
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>>78963148
top fucking post
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>>79008930
Because Franklin can't imagine a universe as edgy as the Ultimate Universe and therefore wasn't able to remake it.
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>>78967781
the day was saved by a fucking hamburger
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>>79010248
Well, no. The day was saved because Reed was able to get Doom to admit that Reed is better than him. The hamburger thing really only benefited Miles since it convinced Owen to bring him and his friends/family over to 616 and revive his mom.
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>>78995992
Captain America doesn't seem to know about the incursion stuff in #3, so it seems like the Squadron are all anomalies somehow.
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>>78962456
And Doom heads straight to the kitchens to throw a pot of boiling water on his face
Thread replies: 323
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