How do you feel about not having any FF comics for a while?
>Brevoort: I think so. At a certain point, we set out here to do the last Fantastic Four story, at least for the time being. We didn't necessarily start with that as the original goal way back even with "Avengers" #1. That having been said, it's such a natural end point because a lot of this stuff organically grows out of Jonathan's "Fantastic Four" run. It seems like a fitting capstone to all of that.
>Now, there are some people who will look at this ending and all they'll see is Marvel putting Reed, Sue, Franklin and these other characters on a shelf because of movie rights. Is that fair? Is this really a shelf?
>Brevoort: It's a shelf in that the Fantastic Four as a unit are now split up. Ben and Johnny are in "Guardians," "Inhumans" and "Uncanny Avengers," and there isn't a "Fantastic Four" title. None of these characters are dead, though. Therefore, the future will inevitably and invariably get to a point where we'll see more of Reed, Sue, Franklin, Val, Dragon Man and the Future Foundation. We will get to that point. I don't know that we'll get to it quickly. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. Hopefully we'll get to it when you least expect it so their reappearance on the Marvel stage can have some resonance to it.
I approve. I wish superhero teams could break up and go their separate ways more often.
It's too bad people think this is only happening because of film rights issues.
It's not like the current Avengers comics are exactly like the Avengers movies.
As possibly the biggest FF fan on /co/, I'd rather Marvel never make another FF book ever again or even acknowledge that they exist. It's better than seeing them turned to shit like what's already happened to every other Marvel character.
That's fine. Sometimes it's good for characters to go away for awhile, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Thor was gone for like five years, a few years without Reed or Sue isn't bad.
We can talk about how the MCU ruined shit, but I'm really glad more people are being exposed to more obscure characters. People know who fucking Rocket Raccoon and Ronan are now. They may know them as different versions, but the name is out there.
It's fine because the quality of Fantastic Four comics have been down since Hickman left.
I'm glad that Hickman wrote this ending for the Fantastic Four in Secret Wars. It felt right coming from him.
I'm fine with it so long as we see them again eventually. But lets not all act like we don't know this is because of the whole movie rights situation. Because it totally is and we all know it.
What's that from?
I'm fine with how the fmaily ended up at the end of Secret Wars. I'm fine with Johnny and Ben doing their own thing, but them not knowing left a bitter taste.
>but them not knowing left a bitter taste
Yeah, same. It was a good end, but the whole "Johnny and Ben think they're dead" thing doesn't sit well with me. You can pretty easily no-prize WHY they didn't tell either of them, but still, you don't let your family think you're dead when you're not. You just don't.
It's probably one of Marvel's official posters.
Like this one
I don't know Anon, as a huge FF Fan myself, I want to see them again, but give them 4 years.
You mean third-party licensed stuff. Marvel isn't licensing out the X-men and F4, which is why third-party merchandise manufacturers can't include them on posters, t-shirts, or what have you.
It's official in the sense that Marvel gave them the OK to make it, but Marvel weren't the ones that actually made it.
Yeah, I'm OK with giving them a break. I'll take the ending they got in Secret Wars over having to watch 4 more bland, forgettable runs like Robinson and Fraction's.
I want a writer that WANTS to write the F4 not HAS to write them. Wait for someone that cares and has a pitch that goes beyond "uh, I dunno, I guess I'll just retread some old Lee/Kirby stories for the hundredth time."
What's a shame is that the end of Secret Wars actually does set them up with a great premise for a new F4 book, but I wouldn't trust any of Marvel's current writers with it anyways besides maybe Ewing, and he's already treading similar ground in The Ultimates.
Had they straight up killed Reed, Sue, Val, and/or Franklin off like people were anticipating then I'd be right fucking pissed, but shelving them for a bit ain't bad. I just hope "shelving them for a bit" doesn't mean "shelving them until they get the rights back."
There was a lot of fun continuity porn in it, but it really felt like a "we've run out of people to write this book, please do it for us" kind of thing, which never leads to anything worthwhile. I'm critical of Hickman's stuff, but that was indeed better than this.
>no Simonson, which is better than anything there save Kirby and Waid
>no Carey Ultimate FF
Step it up, son
I liked it, although I hated the Quiet Man and how Robinson tried to claim he was behind villains since the FF's begining even though that's impossible
It was adequate. Certainly a massive step up from Fraction's abortion.
They've had a fantastic run from Fantastic Four/FF through the Avengers books till now. They desperately need a break, at least Reed and Sue do. And so does Doom for that matter, but Bendis shits things up as per usual.
One that will be overturned in about three years tops. The only major change in Marvel I can think of that's stuck was the death of Jean Grey, and they're probably going to bring her back this summer.
>Hickman: There are things that have not changed since the beginning of me working on this stuff, and I think those bits are kind of obvious. The thing that organically happened, which worked to our benefit, was the fact that it was advantageous to be writing what was essentially the last Fantastic Four story.
>I remember the summit where this became kind of the obvious thing, and I asked Mark Waid, "Are you cool with me doing things this way?" And he was. I had Mark's blessing, which was important to me. We kind of agreed on how it should be handled. All that happened early enough that it was actually going to make it more powerful, and as far as I can recall, that's kind of the only thing that changed, even though it ended up being a really big thing.
>Hickman: Yeah, and that was a conversation in the room. Something that was absolutely talked about was should they die? I had absolutely zero interest in telling that story. [Laughs] Because it runs completely contrary to everything that I feel about that franchise and everything that I feel about those characters. So we got to where we wanted to get to.
Props to Hickman for being against killing them off, as it seems several people at Marvel wanted to do
After the mosaic page we talked about we got a defining moment in the rivalry between Doom and Reed where Doom admits to Reed that he thinks Reed would have done a better job than him as "God." What did it cost Doom to admit this? And, Tom, to your knowledge and recall has Doom ever confessed something like this before?
Brevoort: I don't know that we've ever seen Doom confess something like this before, specifically. You might be able to find a story somewhere, though. I'm sure somebody will prove me wrong in the comments, but that's a fairly big admission from Doom, and ultimately, it cost him everything here. It's a big admission both figuratively and literally.
From the issue's final pages, it looks as though it was a sort of freeing admission for Doom as well.
Hickman: Yeah, I think so. People are free to interpret the story however they want to, but I think you could argue that Doom was, at times, the most heroic person in the story, and I think you could argue at the end that he won just as much as anybody else. That's one of the neat things about the story.
Brevoort: I think, too, and I've said this a couple of times over the weeks and months since the all-new, all-different Marvel Now books have been coming out, that "Secret Wars" #9 was pretty much unspoilable. This is a very good example of that.
That last page of #9 lands. It has great impact, despite the fact that Doom has been walking around in "Invincible Iron Man" for five issues with his face healed and looking perfectly normal. On the one hand, everybody going into this had to know something was going to happen and Doom was going to get his face fixed, but by the same token, I think you read the story, you get caught up in what's going on and you don't even think about it. Then, when you get to that last page, it still feels like a surprise. It still feels like a revelation, even though you've already seen it.
>the mosaic page
Y'know, I have the oddest feeling that Brevoort and others will try to tout their intentions as attempting to one-up a similar page from "Pax Americana" #1.
>Then, when you get to that last page, it still feels like a surprise. It still feels like a revelation, even though you've already seen it.
Y'know, come to think of it, what exactly DID change directly as a result of "Secret Wars"? Not changes made during the eight-month time gap, but stuff that changed directly through events in the "Secret Wars" event.
So if I understand it correctly, 616 Susan is officially dead and the new one from Secret Wars is taking her place, which means marvel has now officially taken every female hero I cared about away from me...
Miles Morales became a part of 616 and got his family back thanks to that hamburger? Besides that and all the other refugees that weren't made part of the main Earth (if Miles even did)? I got nothing.
>thinking anyone will ever undo the new Bendis quo while Bendis is still with Marvel, and has Team Bendis to back him up.
Nigga, do you even know who you're talking about? He's the master of Marvel, the king of comics, the future Editor-in-Chief. He has 2 shows based on his creations, Powers and Jessica Jones, and someday Mile Morales will be the next Spider-man in movies or TV.
Sorry mate, but Bendis is the King of Marvel. Those on Team Bendis will guard any and all storylines created by Bendis, or expand on it. I mean look at this shit →
Once he finally runs Marvel, we will enter an era of Bendis continuity. As long as there's a franchise with a movie or TV show, it won't be safe from Bendis Continuity.
He's the future Editor-in-Chief of Marvel, and the other writers at Marvel know it. The ones that aren't with him are off doing Star Wars.
I liked it.
Y'all niggas trippin'.
Yeah, other than Miles and his friends/family becoming Earth-616 denizens as a result of Owen paying Miles Tuesday for a hamburger today.
You really gotta change up your copypasta, dog. At least change the dead link to something within the thread itself, y'know?
Here's bleedingcool stating the announcement did happen, but I can't actually find the announcement.
Ehh, it just reeks of being lazy.
Personally, I'd also suggest finding a way to compress it from the wall of text it currently is. Copypasta works best when it's either so short it could have been written by anybody, or so long that it could have only been written by an edgelord or an autist.
That's just me, though.
Nope, Franklin and the rest of them are off creating the multiverse again. Now if the multiverse is the same or different depends on who you ask but we know it's infinite still so what's the point? Basically it lets them ignore continuity when convenient and renumber things.
Robinson's run was fun but it was obviously not intended to go on for long, just fill time until Secret Wars. Brevoort even stopped editing the book when it went to Robinson and gave it to Mark Paniccia, Marvel's king of books that the top editors won't do.
Giving the book to Fraction was clearly a mistake, but to be fair we don't know exactly what happened to derail his run. When Fraction got the FF Marvel still seemed to care about it and X-Men, but in 2013 they turned sharply against anything they didn't own for the MCU.
Sounds like an interesting and deep enough change of pace that might actually result in meaningful developments in multiple characters histories, unlike a simple random gimmick like putting Peter Parker in charge of a business in Asia.
This must be satire.
>What exactly DID change directly as a result of "Secret Wars"?
>Multiple alt-universe characters ending up in 616
>Miles' mom being brought back
>Weirdworld ending up in 616
>Creation of Battlerealm for the Contest of Champions.
>Multiversal refresh resulting in the creation of ISO-8
>Doom's face is healed
>Wakanda brought back to its former glory
>Reed, Sue, Franklin, Val, and the Future Foundation are off recreating/exploring the multiverse so no longer in 616 (I was going to include Owen too, but since he's putting a piece of himself in every universe Franklin creates, that means he'd have to have a slice of himself in 616 too)
>Ultimate Thor's hammer ending up in 616 Asgard with a worthiness enchantment
That's all I can think of.
I'm halfway positive that the Multiverse is literally unchanged, or at least it will be unchanged when writers default to the previous list that's up on Wikipedia and don't try to go full "Multiversity" with the Marvel multiverse.
So that's Doom's face, the Storms going MIA, and Miles going 616.
Oh, all this too, I guess.
Still, doesn't feel quite as "Nothing will ever be the same" as was advertised and implied.
It was ok. It was obvious that he wasn't allowed to create any new characters and was pressured to do something "un-adaptable" from higher ups.
So he pretty much was forced to try create something out of all of the FF's forgotten characters and story materials (i.e. Heroes Reborn, She-Thing, Puppet Master).
Somehow it was still better than Mark Millar & Fraction's runs.
Is it wrong that i'd rather they be put in limbo then see them get "MCU-ified".
Considering how Marvel is butchering Kirby's inhumans designs i'd hate to see what they do to the FF.
>Based Hickman saved the FF
Fuck I love this man
>Still, doesn't feel quite as "Nothing will ever be the same" as was advertised and implied.
Don't worry about it, it was clearly rushed and doesn't make sense even within its own universe. Avengers, TRO, Secret Wars all that shit wasn't ever an FF story until like issue 7 when Hickman realized he had no ending. How can there be no Beyonders in this at all.
ALL FOR THE MOVIE RIGHTS
HE BASICALLY ADMITTED IT
How many times has the FF been a real flagship book for Marvel? When Lee and Kirby were doing it it was probably *the* flagship Marvel book, where the whole idea of the Marvel Universe was created. But after Kirby left it was a long slog of writers and artists doing good-but-not-great work.
It was a very important book again under Byrne because of Byrne's star power, and then it was important again with Hickman. That's probably about it. (I liked Waid's run for example, but because Bill Jemas didn't like it it doesn't really feel like a book where big and important things happen in the MU.)
>big and important things happen in the MU
Those didn't happen in Hickman's, either; I'd argue Waid's, Simonson's, and Defalco/Ryan's had more impact on the MU. His was right place, right time more than anything.
Maybe the Johnny Storm stuff felt bigger because it was acknowledge in Slott's Spider-Man. Waid felt like he was hovering around the edges of the MU, though that might just be because of the way things were done in the Jemas era, with most of the books kept separate from each other (like Kang took over the world in AVENGERS and no one else mentioned it).
The ending of Secret Wars really struck me as something that would concern the new ULTIMATES team.
and I think Al Ewing could do some cool stuff with the Richards/FF, so I'd love to see them tie-in eventually.
>Maybe the Johnny Storm stuff felt bigger because it was acknowledge in Slott's Spider-Man.
Then Waid's was certainly bigger, as he managed to keep Doom out of the MU for more than just 11 months.
A lot of the "segragated" books of the Jemas era were towards the beginning, honestly (though yes, the Kang example is surely an awful consequence of Jemas' tenure).
I'm okay with the Avengers being pushed. X-Men and Spidey were all you saw on promo stuff for literally decades. The reasons for it feel silly, but I'm glad what is supposed to be the AAA super team in the marvel U is the most popular rather than characters who are supposed to be more obscure and less popular in-universe. That always felt weird to me.
FF hasn't been the central MU book since the 60s. Yeah Byrne had an Amazing run but even during that period Uncanny was the flagship title. Avengers if course is the absolute top dog now even though it's pretty consistently crap for long stretches because it has to deal with a half dozen solo titles plus 4 or 5 team books. Not even 90s Xmen had to deal with so much garbage.
Marvel should just pay whatever it takes to get the FF rights back. I can live with the xbooks being in a permanent ghetto because honestly that works better for the writing anyway but FF is much more central and it's unclear that anyone can make a decent FF movie. Hell I have doubts about Marvel being able to do a decent FF movie.
It feels very very wrong without all of them being there.
This is during the final battle after Jane brings the Thors to the fight.
Nah, Fraction dipped 2/3rds of the way through. The last like 7 issues are by the Allreds. And they were making it with the Marvel Method in the first place, which tends to be more artist driven.
If that was their intention then they failed, what makes Morrison's shit great is the fact that he synchs with his artists really well and one of the artists that gets him well his Quitely.
Hickman probably just dumped the script on Ribic and Brevoort probably had the mosaic idea and told Ribic to include it and that type of shit is not Ribic's forte (and it showed a lot in SW because his art was weak, just compare it to Thor and Loki Blood Brothers or even Aaron's Thor run)
>The reasons for it feel silly, but I'm glad what is supposed to be the AAA super team in the marvel U is the most popular rather than characters who are supposed to be more obscure and less popular in-universe. That always felt weird to me.
imo, that was always Marvels charm and what made it different from DC. If I wanted the most popular heroes to be the highlight acclaimed ones I'd go with Justice League. At least it felt like it was earned there.
I just realized another potential influence on the page.
Moreover, it's explicitly untrue. I just bought this statue earlier this month, and it looks great on my desk. It's one of a series of eight X-Men statues based on the very recent comics. Obviously Marvel can and does produce at least some merch based on these properties, they just mostly choose not to.
>Well, it ended with yet more Reed cock sucking and him as the king of the universe, so he at least got a happy ending.
You got a happy ending, too.
Although you're now stuck in a Bendis book. Truly a fate worse than death.
IIRC, this story was written by Duane McDuffie.
Do you ever notice how small the Marvel Universe looks without all the X or F4 characters.
They spent decades developing the mutant population due to the X-popularity only to try and kill half of the characters in their universe.
Is Marvel actually Thanos?
>and it showed a lot in SW because his art was weak, just compare it to Thor and Loki Blood Brothers or even Aaron's Thor run)
Or you could compare SW to Hickman's Ultimates runs, where Ribic got most of U Reed's faces from to reuse. See >>78963199
This was alternate future Dr. Doom, not 616 (or should I say Prime) Dr Doom. Normal Victor has never been willing to admit something as big as "Reed would have done a better job as God"
>Now, there are some people who will look at this ending and all they'll see is Marvel putting Reed, Sue, Franklin and these other characters on a shelf because of movie rights. Is that fair?
But it quite clearly is what they're doing. And we all know as soon as they get the rights back (likely right before a big anniversary) the F4 will reunite and marvel will be singing the praises of the World's Greatest Comic Magazine or whatever they tout the series as. I just wish they'd fucking buy back the rights already. THEY CLEARLY HAVE THE MONEY.
I guess it's better PR to have another company failing to use comic characters to make a movie so the rest of the MCU movies look better by comparison, it's such a bullshit move letting others butcher shit like the F4 just to make shit like Iron Man (of all characters) look better. Can't wait till we get an F4 movie from someone that understands the fucking concept of the series/characters.
Do they actually think they're dead? Johnny says that Reed and Sue are "gone", not that they're dead.
Furthermore, Peter Parker says that the Baxter Building will be returned to the FF when they inevitably come back, which he wouldn't say if he thought they were dead.
I mean it was readable but it had some stupid shit in it, like doing yet another goddamn "abloo bloo bloo Reed and Johnny, you ruined muh one chance at being human again!" Thing story. As if we needed yet another one of those. Out of all the possible retconned in secrets, I can't understand why Robinson felt it prudent to recycle one of the worst F4 tropes.
Fantastic Four #542–553. Probably 554. This page is my favorite.
Fucking no one would take that deal. The one that Marvel offered Fox was "You keep Daredevil, and we get Silver Surfer and Galactus" which Fox refused.
And now Daredevil is the best thing in the MCU while the F4 movie was a massive blunder that didn't even use SS or Galactus in the first place.
Even Hickman's Dr. Doom tulpa hates Hickman.