So can someone please explain the man of steel hate to me? I see so many negative comments about it but I get a feeling that the complaints come from someone who didnt actually watch the film.
Is this due to people hating Zack Snyder for some reason?
I want to address some of the dumbest complaints I've seen.
>>Man of Murder
Clark had been superman for like less than a week and he was going against a group of hardened soldiers who were literally born for battle. Do you really expect him to have to worry about not having the city be destroyed when he has to go against Zod?
>>Muh Supaman doesn't kill.
If supes didn't kill Zod what would they have done? Put him in a prison? Hah
Zod was literally going to kill all of humanity as he even explicitly said he'd do so it was literally all Clark could do. Him killing Zod can also be used for character development on why he has his no killing rule.
>>There's no jokes/too dark
Fuck You the movie had a few jokes and that's enough. Plus going too jokey gives you age of ultron type shit with a quip quota of 9001 and very little emotion.
>>But its not comic book accurate
Too bad a directors job isn't to pander to the small minority of people who read comics. It's to draw in a larger crowd and tell a good story.
Ultimately this was a first contact story same as Independence Day or Close Encounters which are loved by many.
Try actually watching the film. It's quite good and by far the best Superman film to date. I went back and watched the Reeves films and the Routhe film and both are just bad by comparison.
It looked dull and the fights were boring
Pa Kent was retarded
Yes, they look like dildos, is that our fault?
-Pretentious (Clark becoming Superman at 33, Church scene, cryptic Jor El talk about saviors, Johnathan Kent going "MAYBE YOU SHOULD LET PEOPLE DIE IF THE ALTERNATIVE IS BEING ALIENATED")
-Gratuitous destruction (more than in both Hulk movies!) that is tonally at odds with the notion of a character who is about helping people as opposed to zwee fighting
-Just a general lack of positivity. People who love this movie (and hate Marvel movies) seem to thing that light=JOKEZ but that's stupid. All-Star Superman is bright colorful and positive as shit and the only time I remember laughing is at pic related
This thread won't end well. It's an endless cycle OP, it's just that people have different feelings about the movie and have different opinions on who superman is to them. What the film was missing was the Clark Kent persona., the act to hide who he really is
>Try actually watching the film.
I did and didn't give it money because
I legally obtained a viewing of it from my library.
>Krypton stuff is a mess
>Most blatant product placement of any cape film in the last several years (constantly going back to IHOP, that prolonged shot on SEARS, etc)
>Jonathan Kent being a terrible person, dies for no reason (In addition to all those people being idiots for hiding UNDER a tunnel, which is what you DON'T do in a tornado)
>comparing Man of Steel to Close Encounters
Forgive me, what I meant to say is the Daily Planet, day to day, friendly Clark. 1st act he's a man on a mission, not making any sort of relationship except maybe Lois. People, and mostly the GA, want to see that Clark to balance out the godlike being determined to save the world.
Op here and those first two comments are justified the product placement and krypton stuff was bad outside of showing Jor El as a badass and Zod as the villian.
The Codex was just a way of moving the plot forward
Nearly all of the problems with Man of Steel have very little to do with Superman's characterization on its own, and everything to do with the characterization of Ma and specifically Pa Kent and how their portrayal in turn influenced Clark's.
I'll give you my honest opinions, I'm not trying to troll or be a meme master so please don't just mindlessly shitpost back at me.
I never really understood the whole Man of Murder criticism since Superman was up against people who were trying to completely wipe out mankind and could not be reasoned with in any way, it seemed very justifiable to me. What I did have a problem with however was just how god damn boring the movie was. I remember sitting there an hour in thinking to myself "god damn when is superman gonna beat up some bad guys already" and that's a problem. The film took the origin at FAR too slow a pace.
But what was even worse to me was that the villain's motivations just made no damn sense. Ok so you're going to reverse terraform a planet with an indigenous civilization of sentient humanoids, wiping out literally every living thing on it simply because you don't want to spend a few difficult years learning how to use your superpowers, you also apparently don't want superpowers? Never mind the fact that they could have just taken the gene thing and built a new krypton on literally any other planet leaving humans alone. For such an advanced species how could he not have seen past his disgust at the disgusting and heretical way humans live to notice that it was how kryptonians once were? Instead of destroying humanity why not use his superior technology to take over Earth and lead humanity to becoming a new kyrpton, showing humans why their old ways were so inferior to a civilization of planned organisms?
It really bothered me that these things were never explored, instead when jorel says what he's doing is genocide he just goes yeah so what. That is not good enough.
The only problem I had was Clark was too reactive. My favourite part (when he turns himself in and explains his reasons for doing so) is his most proactive moment in the film. Seems like he never really got to make a big statement of purpose or anything. Hopefully Clark will articluate more of a viewpoint in BvS. MoS really only dealt with him being forced to go public, and hopefully BvS will deal with his responsibilities to the world and his place in it.
if Clark being superman for less then a week is so important then because he's also had to deal with his powers his entire life and Zod and the rest had theirs for like a day should be mentioned and it since you didn't you must realize how stupid it is the Clark didn't just overpower the rest. Clark should be considered a black belt with his powers the rest kids in class the first day the fights shouldn't have been close.
People act like Pa Kent told him never to save people, and to stay hidden his entire life. What he really said is that his reveal would be an earthshaking revelation, and he has to weigh that against his desire to save people. If he had become public knowledge at 14 would he be prepared to take on the mantle of Superman? In fact Pa Kent always planned for Clark to go public "You have to decide what kind of man you want to be, because good or bad he's going to change the world."
The supposed justification is that, thanks to Pa Kent, Clark didn't really use his powers all that much over the years for fear of being found out (but apparently he's fine with destroying a trucker's livelihood for being a bit of a sleazeball...). He also wasn't a military veteran with decades of combat experience to back up his strength.
If those were Pa Kent's real intentions, they were not properly conveyed to the audience. His needless death in particular clearly gave Clark the exact opposite idea, up until he had to don the mantle out of necessity.
But he explicitly said that several times, and after his death flashback Clark says "I let my father die because I trusted him, because he was convinced that the world wasn't ready."
For me it was: dead colors, soundtrack by Zimmer, storytelling that jerks viewers around too much, Clark is Jesus, Clark's dad, overall Christopher Nolanization of character who would only benefit from its absence. I swear, sometimes you could tell when it's Snyder having fun making Supes movie and Nolan/Goyer trying to be deep about alien Jesus.
But overall, more I rewatch this movie more I like it. At least in the same way I like Dragon Ball Z, seeing skyscrapers fall, Zod and Supes taking fight to the space is lots of fun.
His father was convinced, but his father was also wrong. Holding Clark back from his true potential is what ultimately ensured the other Kryptonians would have such an advantage over him. What Clark lacked at that point was experience.
A talking raccoon and a tree that only says 3 fucking words or Krypto? Not that I think they'll bring in Krypto, but what does DC have to rival some of Marvels ridiculously popular characters?
It's mostly Batfags and Superman's name recognition, hell throw in hungry skeleton if you like.
“Hipster” is a term co-opted for use as a meaningless pejorative in order to vaguely call someone else’s authenticity into question and, by extension, claim authenticity for yourself.
It serves no conversational function and imparts no information, save for indicating the opinions and preferences of the speaker.
Meanwhile, a market myth has sprung up around the term, as well as a cultural bogeyman consisting of elusive white 20-somethings who wear certain clothes (but no one will agree on what), listen to certain music (no one can agree on this either), and act a certain way (you’ve probably sensed the pattern on your own).
You can’t define what “that kind of behavior or fashion or lifestyle” actually is, nor will you ever be able to. That’s because you don’t use “hipster” to describe an actual group of people, but to describe a fictional stereotype that is an outlet for literally anything that annoys you.
The twist, of course, is that if it weren’t for your own insecurities, nothing that a “hipster” could do or wear would ever affect you emotionally. But you are insecure about your own authenticity - “Do I wear what I wear because I want to? Do I listen to my music because I truly like it? I’m certainly not like those filthy hipsters!” - so you project those feelings.
Suffice it to say, no one self-identifies as a hipster; the term is always applied to an Other, to separate the authentic Us from the inauthentic, “ironic” Them.
All these issues aren't even the worst parts of the movie by a long shot. The editing was fucking atrocious legit one of the worst edited films I've ever seen (two people calmly sitting/standing here talking BETTER USE SHAKY CAM, everything is gray and colourless) that had a legit budget, the plot trying to be "adult" yet being mediocre as fuck and nothing new that the comics haven't done a million times better before, the shit pacing.
When it comes to comic book complaints? Supes killing Zod is fine IF it showed that death having a toll on him. The city being destroyed is only complained about because they didn't humanize the city and the devastation it was causing. I didn't care the city was being destroyed, because why would I? Dark Supes has been done again an again in canon (at least before some retcons) an elseworld stories with much more interesting concepts and much more interesting deconstructions of the character.
>>Krypton stuff is a mess
No it was not in any way.
>>Most blatant product placement of any cape film in the last several years (constantly going back to IHOP, that prolonged shot on SEARS, etc)
Adds to the realism of the setting.
>>Jonathan Kent being a terrible person, dies for no reason (In addition to all those people being idiots for hiding UNDER a tunnel, which is what you DON'T do in a tornado)
HOW THE GOD DAMN FUCK IS LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE AND BELIEVING THAT MORE LIVES WILL BE LOST IF CLARK IS REVEALED MAKE HIM A BAD FUCKING PERSON????
That is what I have ALWAYS been told to do, that is what is done in the majority of Tornado videos out there, its not common Info.
I know it's /v/ as fuck to say but I really am starting to wonder if there's some WB employee advertising here.
Because goddamn. Every time Snyder strings more than three words together, it mandates a thread. We have >X MORE DAYS UNTIL SNYDER IS ON CONAN threads, AND the 3 daily "What's the matter with you Man of Steel was great" threads.
That's just too much.
Man of Steel was better than most mcuck shit. actually only winter soldier was better.
Self fulfilling prophecy. By hiding Clark and letting Zod frame the narrative for human-kryptonian relations, Jonathan insures that Clark will never be as accepted as he could have been had he chosen to introduce himself before that.
There is a reason the more optimistic portrayals have Clark's first public act be one of altruism.
It's not wrong to say that Man of Steel is an alien invasion movie first and foremost.
No that is mother fucking bullshit, I like his powers, origins, sci-fi nature, idealism, being a reporter giving him a grounded view of the world, some of his allies, most of his villains, like or love all of that, I like his TAS almost more than Batman TAS, I just hate that all that is at times neutered by this need to make the world around him bright and silly, it seems contradictory...
> "what point is a bright beacon of hope in a bright hopeful world?'
There is NOTHING about the character that requires bright silly-ness, he can be idealistic and inspiring and still not be campy with that shit, Movie Cap proves such.
>> "what point is a bright beacon of hope in a bright hopeful world?'
Jesus fucking Christ stop using that line.
The bright hopeful world of Superman is very obviously shown to be as such BECAUSE OF SUPERMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Brightness isn't inherently silly or campy either you edgelord!
You're the exact kind of piece of shit that would've gotten us the Jon Peter's / Tim Burton movie.
If you look at all of Krypton it was pretty clear that they were trying to emulate Geigers use of sexuality in their designs.
Though the flying dildos may have been too much
But then if the world is a bright hopeful place, then what the fuck is he accomplishing, what is he inspiring, I want to SEE him making it a better place instead of it already being better.
> Brightness isn't inherently silly or campy either you edgelord!
No, but the Reeves films where cringe level campy regardless.
> You're the exact kind of piece of shit that would've gotten us the Jon Peter's / Tim Burton movie.
The Superman lives crap? No, the whole concept of him being reborn thru his son is the most retarded thing I have ever heard, and the other Brian Singer idea of him killing his son possessed by Brainiac I am avidly against also.
THIS is what I want.
> Realism and worldly tone of MOS/Earth One/Supreme Power with the characterization and likability of TAS.
It has been a thing that Metropolis before Superman shows up isn't quite Gotham level but certainly not the bright and shiny city we see it under 10 years of Superman's tenure.
If this fucking movie dropped the Pa Kent death scene it would have been a pretty decent action flick.
It was just so dumb. I hope they just pretend his dad got a heart attack or something in future films.
1.) I want the realism of a deconstruction, but no I don't want his characteristics to be looked at disdainfully or in a bad way just present them in a Believable manner which MOS did IMO.
2.) There is no actual one thing that is Superman, Pre new 52, TAS, new 52, earth one, Reeves, MOS are all different, but they are all still Superman, just different incarnations.
I do like the first 2 and even Returns, I just prefer Superman with a different tone/style.
But I am a Nolan fag and fucking love the realism of the film and even I don't like the execution of the scene, but the point of it is still sound.
A Real Superman must think before he acts and knows that sometimes acting will lead to far worse thing then doing nothing.
He should have been helping others get to safety hence why he could not have gone for the dog, or Pa should have said specifically STAY with Martha.
He should have hesitated only for a split second and Pa was gone, as it is the scene lingers for fucking eternity.
I say all this as a massive fan of the film.
I think they got Pa's motive across ok...
> Your not ready, the world's not ready, the world may tear itself apart in reaction to you and it may tear you down before you can realize your potential.
John Kent's death teaches Clark the lesson that he should protect his secret identity more than people that he cares about.
The ending has no setup or reinforcement throughout the movie. Superman just cries and it falls flat. Which sucks because Superman being forced to kill a man with his bare hands and it brings him to tears should be a brilliant scene. But the script doesn't hold it up.
Most of the MCU characters don't really have any qualms killing their enemies, since most of their enemies are fairly murderous assholes, which Zod also is. Think the only one that hasn't died is Loki, but Thor and I guess Odin don't quite want him dead? And Bucky who's brainwashed.
Not that I think they have much choice with the way DC characterized their superheroes, a no-kill ideology doesn't hold up in a world of snackbars and such.
>If supes didn't kill Zod what would they have done? Put him in a prison?
You do know the Phantom Zone is a thing, right?
I don't know how anything you said is a response to me.
But yeah you're right?
No. They only way to open the Phantom Zone was already spent. Superman HAD to kill Zod. He did not have to cry about it and ruin what should the the heroic triumph over evil.
Abomination is alive at the end of the Hulk, but I doubt we will ever see him again.
But yeah so far all the MCU heroes kill villains and henchmen pretty casually. I hope Spider-man at least has qualms about it.
You know I always say with Zod you only have two options. You either send him back to the phantom zone or you kill him. For the movie sending him back to the PZ wouldn't have been a satisfying climax which is why you needed the fight.
Superman killing him doesn't really bother me, plus there was nothing in that setting that could kill a Kryptonian.
Generic, bland, terrible colour correction, no fun allowed, shitty Superman who would rather make out with his girlfriend than save lives, retarded Pa Kent
The only real good thing are the fight scenes, they're quite enjoyable and kinetic.
>It looked dull and the fights were boring
Compared to fucking what? The Richard Donner films. God forbid super powered beings actually fight like super powered beings. It's just bullshit Snyder hate and nothing more.
>Try actually watching the film. It's quite good and by far the best Superman film to date. I went back and watched the Reeves films and the Routhe film and both are just bad by comparison.
It's not a good film, it's incredibly rough and cut together like a student film that just consists of small vignettes threaded together, and this style doesn't really go with the big action blockbuster the movie was trying to be. I don't care even if it was the best superman movie, on it's own it's just not good.
>implying anyone gives a fuck about the reputation of the director compared to whether or not the character was depicted properly
It sounds an awful lot like you came here already angry and making excuses, not trying to have a discussion and listen to people's reasons.
And like I just said, you're trying to invalidate an entire post because I accurately described Man of Steel as "bland".
Try actually responding to my post instead of being a smug retard you piece of shit.
I think the pace was good here, better than old Superman movie, with that long ass Kripton introduction, his life at Smallville and shit. Man of Steel use of flashbacks makes it better paced IMO, less predictable.
I don't hate it, but David Goyer should never write another screenplay ever again. The structure and character development was so poorly done in the first half, I have no idea how that man keeps getting jobs.
The flashbacks get me every time. They're always so awkwardly inserted into the movie with no rhyme or reason, they don't connect to what was happing with the scene before, and they break up the flow of the story. It's just such bad editing.
Then there's the terrible Krypton sequence, the tornado scene, the complete botching of Clark as a character in the first act, etc. There's a lot of dumb shit in-between the good moments.
It's a low rent Nolan movie with a shitty script. Basically everything between Krypton and Zod showing up is stupid and boring. The rest is just stupid. I learned nothing from this film but the fact that being Superman sucks and everyone would be better off is Superman didn't exist. Hell, even Zod.
I mean I get having a measure of darkness in your superhero narrative, but there's no catharsis to balance out the turmoil. There's no real reason for everything to suck so damn much.
Just ranting a bit.
I suppose part or the biggest problem was because they didn't intend on MoS being the beginning of the DCEU they hadn't really planned out some of the moral quandaries that would extend beyond a standalone Superman franchise.
Could they have just restarted while completely ignoring MoS perhaps so they don't have to deal with that continuity? Do they for instance leave room for Supergirl to exist or some such?
So what's the shittiest part of Man of Steel and why is it Pa Kent?
>let those kids die Clark :)
>no don't save the dog, I want to commit suicide
I'm surprised Clark didn't grow up to be fucked in the head with a parent like that.
I only saw the movie once, but this is what remember about how fucking stupid it was:
-Zodd is supposed to be Krypton's greatest soldier, gets his ass handed to him at the beginning of the movie by a scientist.
-Krypton's about to be destroyed, lets waste our time sentencing Zodd and his allies to dimensional space prison via giant flying dildos (thus saving their lives) while we all stay here and die without attempting any type of evacuation.
-Pa Kent: "Maybe it's better to let a bus full of children drown then to reveal your powers, just maybe."
-Pa Kent Pt. 2: "I going to essentially commit suicide instead of letting you easily save me because I want you to learn that you'll never be accepted and you should never try to be a hero."
-Zodd arrives and makes some demands. Superman's conflicted so he talks to his recently discovered ghost Dad to find out what kind of man Zodd is and maybe come with a plan to deal with him. Actually NOPE, instead Clark talks to some random Priest and never thinks to talk to Ghost Jor-El.
-Superman is the biggest threat to Zodd's plans and he's a bit stronger than any single one of them (because of some atmosphere shit), so let's never attack him with more than 2 soldiers at a time even there's a half dozen (or a dozen?, don't remember) of us, all with super powers.
-Superman: "Zodd and his soldiers are on my farm, threatening my Mom! I should tackle him to an empty field before I start fighting him to avoid any collateral damage! NOPE again, instead I'll tackle him right into the middle of my home town because I need product placements."
There's a ton more nonsensical crap in this movie, but this is enough to prove my point.
The script is shit.
I mean the components for good sequels are in place. Still though consider this scene shows Perry White for one scene, and is rather vague about who he is. He's one of many characters just there to given Lois exposition. Still the movie plays him and lady assistant as important during the big fight scene.
Now as a Superman fan you have some knowledge of who these characters are, and why they matter. Regardless it's the movie's job to let the audience know why they should care. Which is Man of Steel's real problem, it's so caught up in trying to be brooding and epic it forgets to do it's job. The audience has little reason to care about anything, or think of Superman as a hero. He saves Earth yes, but at the cost of millions and with no direct saves. Direct connections are important in this type of movie.
Also the product placement is obnoxious. And before you go MUH REALISM, consider that a totally plausible movie about a drug dealer trying to clean up his act, wouldn't need a scene explicitly in a Pizza Hut to be realistic. It's about portrayal of material, not necessarily setting and background.
>He saves Earth yes, but at the cost of millions and with no direct saves.
Everything you said is true except this. Expect the defense force to focus on that one sentence while ignoring the entire rest of the argument.
>Superman being forced to kill a man with his bare hands and it brings him to tears should be a brilliant scene. But the script doesn't hold it up.
i think about this all the time, my guy....
I don't have a problem with Superman killing the bad guys to beat them.
I do take issue with Superman's defeat of the bad guy being treated like a tragedy for no god damn reason. It looks stupid.
To reboot they'd have to recast Superman, and I don't want them to. Cavil is adorable and he actually read comic books and thinks about them. In interviews he talks about Superman in a way that isn't fake and flat. He gives a fuck and that's hard to replace.
It's really god damn sad that BvS looks like such crap.
Wasn't Green Lantern attempt #1 to start the DCEU? Trying to kickstart it a third time would be suicide
And I dunno, it seems like BvS is using the effects of MoS well. Superman being part of the destruction of a whole city was a complaint against the film and it looks like it will tackle that head on with Batffleck
You know what OP.
We've had this thread a million times. You've got legit answers a million times. You choose to fixate to certain points and use ostrich tactics a million times.
Just fuck off man. The movie is shit, that's the general concesus, so if you want to prove it's good you better come up with some valid arguments.
By the way, you're a faggot.
While I have a few complaints about Krypton, I thought it was a good movie.
So DC is taking their cinematic Universe in a different direction than Marvel.
If you pay attention and don't implement any previous knowledge you might have about the characters and/or universe, it's a fairly competent movie.
You. Fuck you.
>one of the most avid defenders of it on co and tv.
Just let it fucking die. I'm fucking fed up of these threads drowning the board in bitch tears that no one likes this shitty movie.
I admit that the fight scenes were awesome, but do they need to create giant set pieces on almost every scene? I got a little tired when they reached the final fight.
And i'm not a fan of its back and forth editing
I'm sorry you opinions are dogshit anon. MoS is worse than any Marvel movie. It's so fucking bad. WB is absolutely retarded beyond all comprehension to pick that shitshow as the start of their universe.
Pa Kent didn't know about any other kryptonians, all he knew was that this kid was an alien with God-like powers. So he tries to hide him and protect him because of how humanity will react. He knew they would want to experiment on him and so on.
I like to think that Pa Kent imagined the Flashpoint Superman or something like that
I love that we se glimpses of that with all the military paranoia in MoS and I fucking love that the BvS trailers show us why Pa Kent was right.
>Most blatant product placement of any cape film in the last several years
>Forgetting the Burger King product placement in the first Iron Man and all that fucking Dr. Pepper product placement in Thor
It's the best capeshit film that's been released op. Dont let these retards get you down, half of them didnt even watch it and the other half dont have the attention span to understand even 30 minutes.
No it's not, the fights were much too long & drawn out & no one was getting hurt. Not to mention the bad story telling. Just accept that this was a below average movie & hope bvs isn't as bad or Wb will probably scrap most of it's upcoming projects & if Shazam doesn't get made because of Snyder & his bullshit there's going to be hell to pay
they made supes to brooding, batmam is brooding, superman is the light in a dark world the symbol of hope. I wished DC makes him more like mcu captain America, yes the world is dark but he doesn't have to change
>Second half was nauseating action for 40 minutes.
Exactly i mean who wants to watch a bunch of superpowered fights in a fucking Superman movie? amirite? That's why super man 2 was such shit, i want to see him fight Lex Luthor and have absolutely no problem beating him for the umpteenth time. Or watching him get his ass kicked by fucking Kumar, waaaaay better than him getting into a super powered smack down with fellow Kryptonians because who would want to see that in a fucking SUPERMAN movie.
>So you made a thread you've already seen before
What the fuck are you talking about you autistic little shit?
No, the fights are exactly what i would expect to see of mother fuckers with god like powers.
It's an alright movie.
Just not a very good Superman movie.
Or at least not the Superman movie they advertised. For all the "ALL STAR ISN'T THE ONLY SUPERMAN STORY GUYS GOSH" MoS' fans spew, that didn't stop the marketers pushing All Star quotes & tone into the trailers and getting fans hype for an All Star-sy ride. Then they handed us some 90s Supes instead.
I don't hate the movie at all, but I did not like how they handled Clark's parents. That is my one major gripes with the movie. If there is one thing they should not have changed it would be having the moral foundation of his parents. I would had love the idea of one of the future films having a moment where Supes is having a moral dilemma and goes off to visit his parents on their farm for some guidance. We wont really have that, we'll have more of Clark with his mom sobbing a bit on what would dad had done. Nothing inspiring, but very depressing. All your other points, yeah. I agree with. Other faggots just don't understand. Cape movies will never ever be source faithful.