>erase all characters and continuity in shared universe
>replace them with other people
>wonder why people don't like them
Nobody actually likes New 52. It was a disaster from the start, and has done more to kill DC than Marvel ever could.
>"B...but they didn't erase the old books!"
No, but they erased those characters. I knew a lot of people whose favorite character was Wally West. He's gone now. Martian Manhunter is completely unrecognizable.
There will be no more stories in the future with the characters people like. Instead we get stories that might as well be from a completely different comic book company.
So please, explain to me why DC thought New 52 was a good idea?
>I knew a lot of people whose favorite character was Supergirl. She's gone now. Hawkman is completely unrecognizable.
>So please, explain to me why DC thought Crisis on Infinite Earths was a good idea?
>>erase all characters and continuity in shared universe
But it didn't. They all still exist in the bleed. Did you even read Multiversity or Convergence?
Why the fuck has this been posted lately? Is this all one shill or just a bunch of casual retards?
Agreed. DC's rich history, legacy, past, relationships, etc is what made the universe so rich and interesting. Now it's just a lesser, confused retread to get to the same spot. Besides Morrison's work, it made me jump ship. Marvel has its problems, certainly, but I like that for the most part, they can incoportate most everything that's happened into the canon.
Oh please this is absolutely nothing like what happened to Wally and you know it.
CoIE was absolutely necessary for the DCU to even make sense and some characters (yes, Hawkman and Power Girl) got caught in the crossfire. New 52 was a tacky sales ploy masterminded by a handful of creators who already spent the 90's almost destroying the industry with their previous cheap sales plots. 9/10 of the best stuff we got out of New 52 thus far didn't even need a reboot to happen.
That's all still canon. Fuck casuals are handicapped. The Crisises happened in universe. Let me break this down so your little brain can comprehend it.
You have a lamp, you break that lamp and buy a new one. Now you have a new lamp. You still know the old lamp existed and you still broke that old lamp to buy the new one, you just don't see that old lamp anymore. If somebody were to pull that old lamp out of the trash to use it, they could. You just aren't using that lamp anymore in your house.
Now let me break it down for you.
The old lamp could easily light up the enitre room. The new lamp can barely make it past the table. Instead of buying the same model of lamp you got a shittier version that wow, also has a completely useless red-light mode.
Also, the main advantage of COIE era comics as well as the main problem of the N52 era comics is that it's the same people at the helm before and after reboot, each time.
JT Kruls and Geoff Johnses and Dan Jurgenses have been making the universe shittier with their comics since 2006 or earlier, it's only natural they'd keep making terrible stuff after reboots and relaunches
You didn't read Multiversity man. It's fucking abundantly clear. Next you'll go on some stupid rant about how Morrison is a druggie so he sucks cause anyone who uses drugs is evil.
Morrison is alright, the complaint is that the rich history of characters' relationships is gone from the monthlies. It's just not there. It might be there in some ideaspace that powers or is powered by fanfics but who the fuck cares about those? I didn't come here for fanfics.
>Rich story about characters realationships
Superman and batman are still friends, Hal is still a fucking space cowboy that suffers, Diana still breaks necks from time to time, the core is here
That may have been true at the beginning but again it hold no clout now. We've had plenty of great interactions with everyone in reference to their history. The League has been operational and theyve all been friends for years at this point. It sounds to me like you stopped reading immediately.
>"We get it, you love the taste of bendis cock now go back to tumblr or wherever you're from lol."
For real, dude?
DUDE LSD LMAO
DUDE DRUGS DONT ACTUALLY PROVIDE ANY INSIGHT THEY JUST MAKE THE MUNDANE SEEM DEEP LMAO
DUDE EGO DEATH IS A MEME LMAO
DUDE DRUG INDUCED EGO DEATH IS NOT REAL BECAUSE NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE SUM OF OUR EXPERIENCES WITHOUT PERMANTENTLY DAMAGING THE BRAIN LMAO
New 52 took a while to get good but it got there, unfortunately the DC You line bombed and we're getting a bunch of good books canceled due to low sales. It's a pity people don't buy good books anymore.
>Anything I disagree with is Pasta!
Fuck you, you fucking drone. Since when are people forbidden from not liking something?
Sorry, I'm not interested. As somebody who liked MM before the reboot, that book is a huge slap in the face to me. I don't care about this new character, so why should I buy his book?
What part did I ignore? I'm still getting stories with characters I like. Just because they are not exactly the same as they were six years ago (spoiler alert: most characters do change within a six year period even if it's not as blatant) doesn't mean I can't like them.
it wasn't the reboot per say that was the bad idea it was the decision to start all the books five years in the future from Justice League and trying to copy Marvel's decompressed writing for Trade format that instantly killed the New 52
Every book should have started at Ground Zero even if that meant no legacy characters and sidekick characters still stuck in their silver age sidekick rolls
the 1st year should have all been done in one issues reestablishing characters and concepts not spending 6 months on new shitty villains like The Mirror, White Rabbit and Nobody.
DCYou is/was the branding for the DC line post-June 2015, and in particular the new books that launched in June (Omega Men, Prez, Midnighter, Dr. Fate, Robin: Son of Batman, etc.)
The books were supposed to allow the creators more freedom, and to produce better books that more people would buy. Instead they produced great books that nobody bought.
>Nu52 was a huge success in terms of sales and quality
Denial is strong in this one, I see.
By every objective measure, the reboot was a failure. It boosted sales for two months, and afterwards the sales sunk lower than before.
And quality? Who the fuck are you kidding?
>explain to me why DC thought New 52 was a good idea?
A reboot and new #1s bring in more sales. They're still up from what they were before the reboot.
Changing and simplifying history makes it easier for newcomers to understand.
They were clearly changing shit around for their inevitable cimenatic universe.
Hence the Justice League having Cyborg, being the first and most important team, and having no other members at first. And tons of other stuff like Shazam's name change and the ethically diverse Shazam kids, Barbara and her red hair being the first and only Batgirl, not giving a shit about the Titans in general, etc.
>Martian Manhunter is completely unrecognizable.
Every single solo book Martian Manhunter has had has completely changed his origin, starting with DeMatteis' mini in the 80's. This is nothing new.
Nu52 Sold enormously, but alienated about half their audience. DC is a company built on the big three. Batman Superman Wonder woman.
It brought in new readers but DC figured out two years later that those new readers weren't staying. Sure the Superman title has found it's floor at about 35,000, a mixture of people who are going to buy the book no matter what and fans who like jean wearing, blog posting, jerk Superman. But Lois and Clark shows that there are readers who won't touch the new version but will read the old one.
Wonder Woman's the most glaring case. The book under Brian sold about five thousand better than the previous volume, but at the expense of her prior audience. Plenty of girls have informed me in shops they hate the new take including the rape origins.
Except for Batman, the Nu52 screwed up DC's most important properties. It may have been necessary, but it came at the cost of immediate sales.
The second string have the same shit. Aquaman is the strongest he's ever been. Justice League, while heavily Bendis, has consistency that's been missing for a long time. Yes the flip side is a weakened Flash book, a mess of their young heroes. But without the reboot, you don't get Swamp thing Frankenstein JLD and Animal Man.
No the revamp isn't perfect,
Bat family titles lost cult favorites and classic stories. Despite Babsfags, the ginger Batgirl has never carried her own title. Nor has Damien. Tim Drake has carried TWO titles, and both Cass and Steph Brown not only had two big runs with Steph's book being the lowest readership at only 20,000ish.
>That would imply that anyone gave a shit about the Titans before the reboot
They had two books before the reboot which is more than you could say for the reboot. They cared so little about the Titans they just got rid of the version anybody cared about and stuck two 90s guys on it.
>But without the reboot, you don't get Swamp thing Frankenstein JLD and Animal Man.
Why not? Nothing about 2011 continuity would've prevented any of those titles from being launched.
>But most that green lantern stuff totally happened, what do you mean I can't have my cake and eat it? Screw you the cake is now the orange spectrum animal I can do the fuck I want if it makes money!
Only one that got it fucking right was swamp thing.
Saying that you dreamed of a Scottish guy dreaming you does not count Animal Man, even if it is awesomespoiler]
Johns is do the same constant decompressed cross title build up that Bendis did for the Avengers. He's working on a long game that comes at the expense of the model the JLA has had since the Modern era began. Less, super task force of the world's most powerful heroes who shut up and get the job done, more random group of different personalities bicker and deal with crisis as they appear.
>and it doesn't carry the Batman problem of "four Robins in five years".
That's because you aren't thinking into it that much. Hal became Earth's single lantern, became Parallax, died, became the Spectre then returned from the dead and went through all of Johns' run in 5 years. That's some serious compression. Let's not even get into Kyle "All my supporting cast has been erased from continuity" Rayner.
Eh. He's not cross-title that often, and I wouldn't put him in the same ballpark as Bendis, at the very least just for the fact that his dialogue and continuity are a lot better. You're right about the decompression though.
Frankenstein contradicted Morrison's continuity. JLDark contradicts the established continuities of Zatanna, Madame Xanadu, and several others. Animal Man contradicts Morrison's run. Swamp thing is the only run that exists within Moore's continuity.
>it doesn't carry the Batman problem of "four Robins in five years".
So why are people so assblasted about this?
Bruce having any Robins after Jason should be a problem too but people don't give a shit about that
Wonder Woman reboot was awesome, problem was it was a complete reinvention of the character. So was Superman. Neither one is what they were. And what sucks is DC won't admit that these two have basically been completely changed.
Way I see it: Before Justice League: Hal becomes Lantern, does shit. First year is same stuff, Guy and John join at some point. Second year, Hal starts to grey, things go down hill. Some point during third year is Parallax, from then on is Kyle up till year five, then Hal comes back and we get Johns' run.
Since it began, the Johns crossed over with the JL International Annual, Vibe 1, Justice League America, Justice League Dark, Forever Evil. The difference is Johns is immensely talented. His earliest work stands up with some of the best. But he changed his storytelling after the success of New Avengers. Unlike Frank Millar or Alan Moore or Grant Morrison, Johns is willing to alter his style and write what he thinks his readers want. He's not an elitist.
It also crossed over with Aquaman, which was fucking great. And I agree with you, but that certainly doesn't make him superior at all to the others you listed. It just makes him different.
Look, The New 52 gave us a lot of good books, but it gaves us even more mediocre and outright bad books and these books laid out the new canon for a lot of characters
I mean, if you were a fan of the Earth-2 or teen characters in general you're fucked. Completely fucked.
>As somebody who liked MM before the reboot, that book is a huge slap in the face to me.
HOW THE GOD DAMN FUCK IS THAT???
Him being more mysterious and epic and not joking about oreos is a slap in the fucking face???
I say that as someone who loves him pre new 52, tas and new 52.
Teen characters have always been fucked.
The last good thing was PAD's Young Justice and pre-52 Blue Beetle.
Gotham Academy and WAR is you want to count those.
DC doesn't really do teens well since they usually just shove them on Teen Titans which is always horrible.
>sales sunk lower than before
No they didn't, I don't have the information onhand but I did the research in a previous thread and CURRENTLY sales are better than the last month before the reboot, even though they are down from the start of it
Agreed, but with Didio there it really isn't possible to fix them without a reboot. He's firmly anti young Justice, but short of de-aging the characters there just isn't much you can do with the Titans.
But they are sinking fast. Further the talent DC roped in to do the reboot is mostly gone. A reboot only works as long as it has consistency. Otherwise you run into the Ultimates problem
That might be a problem if we were talking Marvel, but DC is constantly bringing in fresh talent. Hell, just recently they've picked up King, Seeley and Valentine, to name a few.
>Nobody actually likes New 52. It was a disaster from the start, and has done more to kill DC than Marvel ever could.
As painful as it may have been for you personally new52 was a huge success commercially. So much so that it boosted comic sales for the whole industry not just DC. Even today numbers still haven't quite fallen back to the pre reboot levels.
You can certainly argue that the didn't have to shit on existing fans to do that but you can't say it didn't work.
You haven't named any artists. Valentine's Catwoman had shit-tier sales so even if people like her she's more of a Bryan Q miller or Sterling Gates than the people they've lost.
King and Seeley are decent writers who have primarily taken Dick Grayson, a character who sold well and are writing a book that sells well. Until King and Seeley actually take on characters that aren't big names, then they haven't proved themselves as big talent.
>Nobody actually likes New 52.
Speak for yourself you faggot.
the tired point is that for every new reader DC either lost one or turned off another. Comics aren't all or nothing anymore. People want good stories. The Nu52 is having the some things go wrong as what happened to books in the old universe.
I think at this point Wally is a lost cause. Plus you need to balance the book one boy one girl is the magic formula usually. Black Wally is going to hurt either way. Better to just leave that mess out. A wonder girl or teen lantern would be great. But there are too many lanterns. Have to kill one. Anybody seen Guy Gardner?
>People want good stories.
Then why do widely acclaimed, well reviewed books sell so poorly? People might say they want good books but what they want is something gimmicky and not too far out of their comfort zones
>People want good stories.
Then why are good books selling like shit?
People want character wanking. They'll buy any turd that's starring their favorite character, quality has nothing to do with it. If quality mattered, Wonder Woman would sell 10k and books like Omega Men/Prez/Midnighter would be more popular.
Well there were also those pre Flashpoint issues where Barry says he never liked Hal hanging around Ollie, or the Black Mercy dream where Ollie realize it was a dream because he's not as good as Hal thinks he is
I don't think Johns HATES Ollie or anything but I don't think he minded splitting those two up much
point on Tarr. Luppacchino unfortunately can't maintain a monthly schedule. I expect Marvel to use that Avengers money to buy Tarr.
Tom King isn't writing another ongoing at DC other than Omega Men, and the sales on that book are laughable.
Most well written cape books sell fine. But you and I might disagree on well written. Reviews do not mean something is well written. if CBR is believed, Bendis is a modern day Chaucer.
Because your holding out as a replacement for writers whose work was both acclaimed and sold well. King is certainly different. But he hasn't had his Sandman yet. DC needs to keep putting him on different books. See what happens.
>new52 was a huge success commercially.
It boosted short-term profits, like all reboots do. Look at where DC is now.
Reboots may attract new readers, but it doesn't keep them, and they chase away old readers.
Amazon's make babies by going out, seducing men with magics, and then murdering them. Oh, it gets better, they then sell the babies to Hesphastus for swords and shit. If they're boys. Girls they keep.
>Yes the flip side is a weakened Flash book
That is a massive understatement. Flash is in a dismal spot right now. They aren't just writing poor stories, they are retconning out some of the best Flash history.
Yes, and the KJ and most pre Morrison Batman. Every Superman story. Every Wally story. Almost Two hundred issues written by three Eisner winning writers and Geoff Johns. So Booch could give the Rogues super powers and make Iris black.
>DUDE DRUGS DONT ACTUALLY PROVIDE ANY INSIGHT THEY JUST MAKE THE MUNDANE SEEM DEEP LMAO
What's not deep about the mundane? Insight basically is seeing something special or new in things that don't look special or now to others. So the mundane can be deep if you look at it close enough. Actually, that's what science is all about. Not that I'm saying sience is the same as taking drugs.
Sorry, that just caught my eye. I'm moving along, now.
Yes, did you see the sign. Tacky.
>Superman and batman are still friends
It's not the same though, what with Batman being 10 to 15 years older than everyone else in the JL. Clark and Diana are closer to Dick in age.
he's also like five other people
Personally I don't think you need to reboot the universe to make it friendly to new users. Just reset back to #1 with a free #0 that includes origin. #1 can be a line in the sand whereby it doesn't rely on the outcome of preceeding stories.
>both Cass and Steph Brown not only had two big runs with Steph's book being the lowest readership at only 20,000ish.
To be fair, Gail's run lasted almost about the same ammount as Stephanie's entire run.
Also Cassandra's was in the late 20,000s near the tail end of her series. Of course that was at #73 so to have it running like that and be who she was. That's just amazing.
Gail's run had a number one, was a part of the 52 reboot, and had the strongest bat book since hush. Gail got tie ins to court of owls death of the family gothopia and zero year, all of which dramatically inflated her numbers.
Gail's run may have decent numbers, but only because of all this. It also lasted a year longer. In the end, Simone's lasting contribution will be the eye patch james jr. wears and a shitty trans character.
It was never a good idea, just helped to generate an initial quick bump of sales, but a terrible idea in the long run. /co/ will only defend this shit because they started to read comics with it and because "the years previous to N52 were shit so therefore N52 must have been good!"
as someone who rarely reads comics and comes here mostly to talk about shows, here's how I see it.
New52 was a good idea, and actually got me interested in reading some comics for the first time ever. Fresh new start, none of the incredible baggage and stupid crap from 50+ years of comics, sounds great. First thing they do? Immediately start filling every comic with the same old shit as before. Dropped everything I had started to read within a year.That was their mistake, if you're not going to change anything for the better, why bother doing it at all.
Those other characters have different stories even if they decide to go back to basis. Not so much J'onn.
Yeah no, they would have to buy WB for that to happen so you can forget about trying to force that meme here, guy.
>>Complaining about Geoff J who gave us one of the best modern GL runs that hasn't been able surprassed no matter who they have at the helm.
Oh right, it's cause he's doing JL and not MUH MORRISON JL.
So can you explain to me how Wonder Woman is so different from all the other amazons when she grew up in that toxic culture? She should hate men and support the rape/killing thing.
Her characterization didn't made any sense. She was your typical RPG protag. She just did and went where other people asked or demanded to complete the quests. She was a passive protagonists that was just super and awesome because she is, no rhyme or reason tro it.
Diana was brought up differently and wasn't exposed to the truth about rape raids, so of course she would be different from the rest, especially after spending time away from the island and mingling with people from the Man's world. It's always been part of her character than she's different from the rest.