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Let's look at 1980s comic book forums
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You are currently reading a thread in /co/ - Comics & Cartoons

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When this was all there was to complain about.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/net.comics
>>
>>78784471
>Who know's Spider-Man's secret identity?
>list consists of no more than half a dozen living characters

oooooh boy.
>>
>>78784471
>As for CRISIS, it's hard to say where it "fits in". With some comics (eg. INFINITY, INC. and TEEN TITANS), it's obvious which issues are pre-Crisis and which are post-Crisis. Some new series (eg. BOOSTER GOLD and BLUE BEETLE) are definitely post-Crisis. The current Superman stories are said to be pre-Crisis, buying time until Byrne's Superman comes on the scene. This last still leaves some problems where DC COMICS PRESENTS is concerned. The Superman of DCCP (and JLA #250, for that matter) is obviously still the same pre-Crisis Supes, but if so, how can he team up with Captain Atom or an obviously post-Crisis Lady Quark, Pariah, and Harbinger?

>I'm beginning to wonder how well DC has thought out these things. I hope that once Byrne's Superman gets off the ground, that they'll start taking this Earth-Only bit to heart and *not* refer to *anything* or *anybody* from before the Crisis.
>>
>About Iron Man... the opinion was expressed recently that Rhodes should stay
on as iron man... that he does a good job at it... i only have one thing to
say to that... BULLHOOEY!!!!!! Tony is the one and only iron man for my
money... who has the brains? Tony. Who has the experience? Tony. Who's
paid the mandatory hero's dues for it (dead friends & relatives, etc.)?????
Tony. Tony is the only iron man for the same reason that hal jordan is the
only green lantern... let me go on record as predicting right now that the
ring will be back in hal's hands inside of 24 issues...
>>
>>78784983
>let me go on record as predicting right now that the
>ring will be back in hal's hands inside of 24 issues...
Well, they were right about that. He'd just lose it again ten years later.
>>
>I've noticed some discussion over who Sensor Girl is but no one seems to be talking about Booster Gold and Skeets. I've been trying to come up with some idea but all I draw are blanks. So far all I've been able to really figure out is that

>a) Booster has an old style Legion of Super Heroes flight ring.
>b) His costume is powered armor that provides him with flight, power blasts, super strength, and a force field that seems to be virtually impervious.
>c) Skeets seems to be a mobile computer with flight and an energy blast. The best idea I can come up with is that Booster is Brainiac 5 in makeup. Except for the fact that Booster keeps saying, "Wowzer" he suggest Brainy quite strongly to me. Perhaps he thinks the expression makes it seem more like he's from this era. My roommate thinks that he's Sensor Girl's brother...
>>
>>78785367
I never knew that was a mystery. I guess they didn't give his origin right away.
>>
>>78784983
By today's standards this whole post is racist.
>>
Indirect proof that the people that bitch about Marvel killing teenagers have always existed
>>
>>78785465
Too true.
>>
My god.
>>
>>78786368
Was Steve Richter an alias for Didio.
>>
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>>78786368
>DC has been losing for 50 years straight now
>>
This fucker called. The post is from '85.
>>
>>
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Rumors were so much better back then. Compare that to the shitty X-men rumors we have now
>>
Early message boards about comics give me life. There are still some of those "official fan sites" from the 90s floating around if you care to look for them too.
>>
Man, everyone fucking hated Secret Wars, huh?
>>
>>78786541
Oh man that is gold. I don't even know that user but I'm happy that his fancasting actually became a thing.
>>
>>78786690
It is pretty shitty.
>>
>>78786690
the date may change but everything else stays the same
>>
>>78786730
But shitty then would be great today.
>>
>>78784471
>complaining about Claremont making mistakes
I wonder what happened when she discovered Bendis.
>>
>>78786368
So there was always an anti-DC Bias?
>>
>>78784471
Is this shit even real? I was born in '91, I don't even know how long the general public has had access to the internet.
>>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/net.comics/8i-CwZGRg10

Too long to make into a screencap, but dig this guy's Watchmen speculation post!

> Was he trying to kill the Comedian or Edward Blake? If Blake then the whole masked killer theory is shot, but if the Comedian then how did he know Blake was the Comedian? Did someone tell him? Who? Did he discover it from stalking Blake/Comedian? Or maybe he didn't know; he just killed whoever was in such and such apartment. (Does anyone know what apartment Blake lived in? I couldn't find it.)
>>
Here's another one, concerning Pixar's formation:

Every now and then, something arrives in the mail at work which can be
valued for something other than its intended contents: the announcement
of the formation of Pixar has on the front of the envelope

HOWARD
THE DUCK
More adventure than
humanly possible.


My question is,
is this the common faire from the San Rafael, CA post office (it *IS* printed
in the same red ink as is the postmark), or perhaps has this slogan been
adopted by the new home of Wally Bee?

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/net.comics/AKaQwW3YDRE
>>
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>>78786854
They were #1 until Marvel boomed and took them down.
>>
>>78787215
I wish Marvel would die already.
>>
>>78787266
That would kill every comic book store instantly and take down DC in turn.
>>
>>78787280
Yeah. Don't kill Marvel. Just fire everybody who has a PC agenda or wants to make the comics an exact reflection of the movies.
>>
>>78786568
Scott, you dumb motherfucker.
>>
>Any guesses as to who she is? My vote goes to Queen Projectra.
>(virtually all of her powers can be explained by illusion-casting, most
>notably the darkness that even the Persuader's axe couldn't cut through;
>also, some sort of cross-dimensional travel would explain how she gets
>around. As for her fighting prowess... perhaps she learned a few martial
>arts moves from Karate Kid).

Points to this dude.
>>
Holy fucking hell. Check out this snippet of two guys talking about Born Again in February of '86.

>But does anyone have any idea where this series is going??

>Only that Miller seems to be exploring a breakdown -- and possible
dispensation -- of a dual identity. Matt was really going nuts before the
destruction of his penthouse, trying to reconcile his two lives. The "Born
Again" premise of this series, and the important fact that Matt is NOT
wearing the DD suit, makes me wonder if Matt has gotten over the schizoid
aspects of his dual nature, and is fighting the Kingpin as Matt Murdock --
which is, after all, who he is.

This is Nostradamus tier shit.
>>
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It's interesting to see people's reactions of things, like the reveal of Spider-man's black suit.
>>
>>78787490
>NETers
kek, missing an E imo
>>
>>78787571
Huh?
>>
>>78787810
NEET.
>>
>>78787571
I think the only way these people could have had internet access is if they were at a university or had a job in computing.
>>
>>78786690
It wasn't limited to Usenet. There were some old Amazing Heroes and Comics Journal issues where people were really bitching about Secret Wars.
>>
>>78788004
Most of these people in these early internet age fandoms were college students.
>>
>>78788159
Makes sense. A lot of the emails were college emails in the ones I've read so far, and I doubt many were teachers.
>>
>>78789314

I can vouch for that. Though I started posting in 1990 (I was a kid). But most people slightly before that were college students. They were the folks I tended to encounter at the time, still.
>>
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>>78784471
>a time when comics were just comics

YOU MANIACS! YOU BLEW IT UP! DAMN YOU!!! GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!
>>
>>78784983
>Tony is the only iron man for the same reason that hal jordan is the only green lantern
>>
I wonder what all these people are up to now?
>>
>>78789502
there's probably at least one of them on here still getting angry about comics
>>
>>78789375
Same with when I started posting in 1995. There are a few people in the net.comics group that I remember from my stint on Usenet, though I never posted in that particular group.
>>
>>78789502
Tom Galloway's apparently still active in comics fandom or journalism.
>>
>>78789502
they shitpost here
>>
>>78785367
>Booster is Brainiac 5 in makeup.
Hahaha, can you imagine?

>>78785405
I didn't either, reading his 80s book a couple years ago it never occurred to me that people might have thought he was a Legionnaire or not a new character
>>
>>78786368
Jeez, this is the exact same shit people say today
>>
>>78791119
The posters here don't even read comics. They just use their secondary knowledge from the movies and try to carry conversations about the source material
>>
>>78786927
Since 1980, the only difference being that newfags came around in September because of college computer courses.
>>
>"Earth-2 will continue to exist"-RT
Poor Roy Thomas.
>>
>>78786927
Yes it's real.

This is pre-World Wide Web though, which has only existed since like 1990.

The generally public has had potential access to the internet since the 90s, but owning an internet connected computer in your home has only the norm since around the turn of the century.
>>
This is some cool stuff.
>>
>>78790837
Who was that one?
>>
>>78786368
>marvel fans have always been autists

I TOLD YOU
>>
>>78786368
What biases did people have against DC have before COIE? Their stories are dumb and goofy and their characters aren't relatable at all?
>>
>>78792983
Yeah, that'd be it. Marvel heroes were regular and heavily flawed people for the most part, DC had perfect alien gods, Amazons, billionaires, test pilots.
>>
>>78786690
They're talking about Secret Wars 2, and yes, everyone hated Secret Wars 2. I'm not sure about how the Secret Wars 1 reception was, but I'm sure the whole "post-SW comics come out before SW is even over" didn't sit well with people.
>>
Best thread on /co/ in a long time.
>>
>>78786690
In that Untold Story of Marvel book, even one of the people from marvel when speaking to retailers said something like, "Secret Wars really sucked, but it sold a lot didn't it? Well here's Secret Wars II!"
>>
>>78792983
DC always seems to have the opposite reputation of what's popular at the time. Marvel was gritty and DC was for kids, now Marvel's fun and DC is grimdark.
>>
>>78793106
>post-SW comics come out before SW is even over
So the current Secret Wars is just honoring a tradition?
>>
>>78788004
This is pretty likely. Look at the sheer amount of .edu email address.

College students/professors had the best internet connections back in the day. (Most still do, God knows I miss having a T3 connection)

The best you could do back in the 90s was dial up internet. Which was slowly as hell and costed you by the minute.
>>
>>78793154
I love that level of honesty.
>>
>>78793170
Accidentally, but yes. The original Secret Wars basically worked like this:
>All characters disappear in one issue of their comic
>All characters reappear in their next comic having been gone for a week, with a bunch of changes that none of them will talk about (She-hulk replacing Thing on the F4, Spidey's black suit, etc.)
>have to read Secret Wars 1-12 (which came out across a year) to find out what happened in that one week they were gone to explain they changes

So it was always the plan from the get-go for the original Secret Wars. This time around, it just got hit with a bunch of delays and they backtracked and justified the delays by saying "w-well we're just hommaging the original SW, r-right?"
>>
>>78792983
Marvel made different types of heroes that had more human stories
So DC became the old dinosaur of comics and marvel became the new hotness
Some things never change
>>
>>78793156
Marvel is doing both atm
DC is trying to be more lighthearted but it feels fake
>>
>>78793291
>Marvel has been the "new hotness" for over 50 years
>Hardcore DC fans STILL think DC is going to overtake them, just you wait
>>
>>78793106
SW2 was some terrible shit god damn.

At least SW1 had the bonus of the story being enjoyable even though it apparently fucked up the other issues
>>
>>78793307
>it feels fake
How so?
>>
>>78793329
They overtook Marvel for a few months at the start of the New 52. They just need to do a linewide reboot with a new Batman #1 twice a year.
>>
>>78793436
See, this is why I don't WANT DC to be top dog.
>>
>>78793436
TWO months. And then sales plummeted immediately after once people realized how shitty the reboot was. Now they're doing worse than ever.
>>
Were there fanzines for comics in the pre-internet days like there were for TV, books and films? I'd love to see fan reactions to 60s Marvel.
>>
>>78793193
>God knows I miss having a T3 connection
>Iknowthatfeelbro.jpg

Yeah, I graduated a year ago and I miss my university internet speeds badly. Nothing like having your high-end battle-station hooked up downloading multiple torrents and running close to 0ms in most online games.
>>
>>78793604
Yeah, lots. That's how a good chunk of 60's and 70's creators got started, working on fanzines and getting picked up by Marvel and DC after.

Alter Ego, a fanzine that began in 1961, is still published today.
>>
>>78793560
That's not true. The reboot raised sales for the most part, even if they didn't "win" compared to Marvel. But nothing lasts forever in comics and they've screwed themselves over with DCYou.
>>
>>78793560
>worse than ever
Eh, they've had lower points. It just LOOKS like they're doing worse than ever because Marvel is currently doing so well, combined with the increase in non-Big 2 publishers, mostly Image, getting bigger slices of the pie.

Basically, everyone else's sales are increasing while DC's are stagnating. It's not horrible for DC, it just looks worse than usual when compared to the others.
>>
>>78793660
>Alter Ego is still being published
Wait WHAT?! I thought it stopped being a thing over a decade ago.
>>
>>78793660

Alter Ego was started by Roy Thomas, IIRC. He went on to become one of the biggest marvel writers of all time.
>>
>>78793709
I have an issue from 2012. It stopped and came back at some point.
>>
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>>78793709
http://twomorrows.com/?main_page=index&cPath=55

Still going, bimonthly. Newest issue is marked August 2016 so maybe that's a pre-order or something.
>>
>>78793843
>every instock issue of Alter Ego for 423
Fuuuuck I'm tempted.
>>
>>78786368
why are they using meme arrows?
>>
>>78786751
Truer words, anon, truer words..

http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Ancient/Graffiti%20from%20Pompeii.htm
>>
>>78793992
Presumably that is why 4chan uses arrows for quotes.
>>
>>78784471
Man, comics and comic book arguments were a lot more innocent before the SJWs invaded and dedicated themselves to ruining everyone else's fun.

No wonder it's called the Silver Age. Things were still shiny. The IRL big bad hadn't shown up yet.
>>
>>78793742
Roy Thomas didn't start it, but he took over and I believe he has it now.
>>
>>78793992
...how young are you?
>>
>>78794147
>Man, comics and comic book arguments were a lot more innocent before the SJWs invaded and dedicated themselves to ruining everyone else's fun.
These are from the 80s, that already happened by then. Hell, Green Lantern/Green Arrow was from the early 70s

Are you twelve or something
>>
>>78794195
GL/GA was from a more sane era of leftism. It was preachy, but it wasn't batshit insane.
>>
>>78794226
That or you weren't living through it and thus don;t have any real point of reference.
>>
>>78793992
Jesus, kid.
>>
>>78794195
WTF are you talking about? Back in the 70s and 80s, it was old right-wing pearl clutchers who were forcing censorship in comics. Not young liberals who pretend to be comic fans.
>>
>>78793660
Cool beans. I was born in the 90s so I mostly missed the fanzine era other than a local Pokemon/Digimon/Tamagotchi thing I read once or twice, but I'm always interested to see fan material from decades ago.
My favorite thing is early Star Wars fandom, where people would argue incessantly about who the other Skywalker was, the merits of the Holiday Special, and whether Vader really was Luke's father.
>>
>>78794258
Go to bed gramps.
>>
>>78794294
The 70s was full of comics with leftist undertones, idiot.
>>
>>78794179

Oh right, Jerry Bails started it. Him and Thomas were friends and part of the first comics fandom. It's weird to think Bails is gone, though his generation are going at this point. He was super against newer comics, though, so it's not like he felt the need to continue the fandom after the 60's.

For reference, Bails thought the Justice League and Legion of Superheroes were newcomer trash, it was all about the Justice Society.
>>
>1980s

What, I thought the "internet" in the 1980s was just locally connected networks like on the Harvard campus?
>>
>>78791306
After hearing about the concept of the Eternal September, it bummed me out that I'll always be a part of the problem.
>>
X-Men and headsucking

> Admit it. The Xmen suck head right now. Too much time IS
> wasted on character development and hardly any time on
> just a plain old good story.

While I can't argue that Claremont is perhaps throwing on the character
development at the expense of story, I don't see why this makes the
comic "suck head". In my book, character *is* the most important thing.
If you can't believe in the characters, the story means nothing.

> In fact, every issue after about 150 sucked.
> I won't give any reason because it is all too plain and
> evident.

Obviously it isn't *too* evident, otherwise no one would buy it.
But tell me, how do you *know* that "every issue after about 150 sucked"
unless you've read them? And if that's the case, why do you read a
comic that "sucks head"?

It's true that the comic hasn't been what it once was. After Byrne left,
there were very few issues that really stood out. The first non-Byrne
issue (#144 - Cyclops vs. D'Spayre); Kitty's Fairy Tale (#153); the
Belasco issue (#160), Kitty & Peter's break-up (#183), "Lifedeath" (#186).
The run of Paul Smith issues was quite good, in general.
I have panned the comic when it deserves it, such as the second
Morlock 2-parter (#188-189) and the Kulan Gath garbage (#191-192). But
I also feel that when an issue is exceptional, it deserves a good mention.
The issue before last (#196) was worth a positive remark because of the
character development of Magneto, and his interaction with Rachel.
Five or so years ago, I thought THE X-MEN was the greatest thing
since Swiss cheese. Now, it's definitely a second-stringer. Still, for the
most part, it's readable and enjoyable.
>>
>>78794343
What's wrong with that? Comic books have always been leftist and liberal, from their very start in the Great Depression.

The problems is SJWs - authoritarian, censorhappy liberals. Not liberalism as a whole.

>>78794195
>Hell, Green Lantern/Green Arrow was from the early 70s

Good example of how much things have changed. Back them liberalism was about inclusion, not exclusion. SJW liberalism is like a corrupted monster, something once proud and magnificent reduced to a vile, destructive shell of itself.
>>
>>78794378
you thought correct
>>
>>78794378
The internet has been around for quite a long time. These are posts from USENET, probably made by college students. What you're thinking off, the more public internet that became huge in the 90s, is actually the World Wide Web. These posts are pre-WWW.
>>
>>78794378
Those networks could still talk to each other in different ways, like Usenet.
>>
>>78794396
lol, basically /co/ before /co/

it's nice that we continue the tradition of hatereading
>>
>>78794415
>skeletons
I'm really glad I have this filter so I don't have to take people like you seriously
>>
>>78793665
>But nothing lasts forever in comics and they've screwed themselves over with DCYou.
You mean Convergence. DCYou is fallout of Convergence's "sales". People want old characters sooo much that they won't buy comics with them.
>>
>>78794430
diff anon, how the hell did they manage to archive this stuff?
>>
>>78794378
These posts are on USENET. By the 80s colleges were connected to the internet, and people had 300 baud modems they could use to connect from home.

>>78794466
Is that your roundabout way of admitting you were wrong?
>>
This all reminds me of back when my dad told me about his Usenet days on how J Michael Straczynski would basically hold court after every Babylon 5 episode and get his legion of fans to constantly praise him for his genius and turn on anyone who dared question his storytelling.

Creatives never really change, I guess.
>>
I read it because the masses (who are asses) value this comic alot.
I have every issue of the new XMEN, and it is going to be worth a
fortune someday. But come on Jerry, how can you like a comic that
started kids saying things like "Take that back BUB, or I'm gonna
have ta scrap you. I'm the best at what I do and what I do isn't
very nice"
>>
>>78794499
No, it's my way of calling you dipshit for whining about The Other.
>>
>>78794505
That's bullshit, I had a friend who posted a message with a strong critique of one of the episodes, and he got a comprehensive (and polite) response from JMS about why he wrote it the way he did.
>>
>>78794565
>The Other

WTF you talking about? Is that some character I've never heard of? You're responding to the wrong person.
>>
>>78794568

NO MY ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE BEATS YOUR ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE

I'm just saying what he told me.
>>
>>78794555
Days of Future BTFO right there for Wolvie.
>>
I always forget how much fans hated those Claremont X-Men stories after Jean Grey died. That was the first time the "pissed off fans = $$$" thing started.
>>
>>78794620
Fair enough. My lived experience contradicts his, take that for what it's worth.
>>
>>78794622
I should had also added how he ended his post:

"Sheeeeittt."
>>
>>78794597
>asking if "The Other" refers to a comic book character

lmao yep you're clearly an authority on what's bad "liberalism".
>>
>>78794648

Insane bc that's when the book got next level
>>
>>78794706
>implying that pro-censorship SJWs are "good" liberalism
>>
>>78794734
>implying there is such a thing as "good liberalism"
>>
>>78794734
you also want certain people censored, sooo...
>>
>>78794762
Of course there is.

>>78794766
Only those who would censor others.
>>
>>78794833
>Only those who would censor others.
Like you?
>>
>>78794499
>you will never travel back in time and shitpost on the 1980s internet about comics and anime and videogames and how hitler did nothing wrong

My life has no meaning
>>
>>78794856
Or you?
>>
>>78794860
It wouldn't be a good idea, since they signed by name, and it would be probably easy to be caught
>>
>>78794896
No, I'm not campaigning for your silence.
>>
>>78794856
Defending yourself from being attacked is different from attacking someone.

I'm perfectly fine with SJWs writing and publishing all the comics they want. It's when they start telling everyone else not to publish things they offend them that I have a problem with, and the point they become no better then Freddy Wertham and the Comics Code Authority.
>>
>>78794860
You won't go to time of Knightfall and say how Bane is big guy, either.
>>
>>78794860
What /co/ would do with a TARDIS.
>>
>>78794951
You don't? Funny, would have fooled me.
>>
>>78794964
What would you do, if you someone back then would reply:
"maybe for you"
>>
>>78795038
Sulk because time-travelling /co/mrade didn't respond.
>>
>>78794964
Speaking of Knightfall is there any message board posts around from the mid 90s? I'm dying to see angry fan posts about stuff like DAROS, Knightfall, Emerald Twilight or the Clone Saga
>>
How did this turn into complaining about SJWs and liberalsim?
>>
>>78794188
not just that anon, most people didn't use a BBS or newsgroups back then. i could understand the confusion.

or that they are being a stupid fuck and thinking they are the bait king
>>
>>78795180
jesus christ, it's only 2 retards arguing. ignore them.
>>
>>78793307
id say its the opposite. Marvel's light-hearted and modern stuff comes off as corny to me with characters constantly plugging apps and taking selfies. It's stuff that will look really dated in about 10 years
>>
>>78795180
It's a thread on /co/
>>
Quality of posting used to be high when there wasn't guarantee of a reply within minutes
>>
Cheshire & Roy Genetics (KILL MARV)

> That isn't the only case... there's his substance "promethium". If he had
> bothered to check a dictionary, he would have found that promethium is a
> real substance, an element with atomic number 61. This oversight seems no
> better than the "microns" on Battlestar Galactica.

Hell, I'm not even sure that he knew that there really is something called
"antimatter" when he began scripting Crisis. He sure didn't know anything
about the properties of real antimatter when he wrote it. It bugs me
when someone makes up near-mystical properties for something real instead
of simply inventing a non-existant substance for his story.
>>
Shit the Solicitations for Marvel has been leaked

CLOAK AND DAGGER #8 is by Mantlo, MIKE MIGNOLA, and Austin.

DAREDEVIL #234 is by Gruenwald and Ditko.

WEB OF SPIDER-MAN #18 by Michelinie, Silvestri, and Baker
Part four of "Where is Spider-man?" This issue we find out where
he is.

LABYRINTH: SUPERSPECIAL #39 by Jacobson, Buscema, and Tanghal
Tie-in with the Jim Henson movie starring David Bowie.

NOTABLE MARVEL TITLES SHIPPING MAY 13, 1986:

Sorry, Jim, but things look pretty boring this week.

NOTABLE MARVEL TITLES SHIPPING MAY 20, 1986:

X-MEN #209 by Claremont, Romita Jr, and Green
Guest starring the Morlocks, the Hellfire Club, Nimrod, and Spiral.
"Major battle issue, while Rachel seeks refuge in Central Park."
>>
BREAKING NEWS!

I got some information from DC the other day about CRISIS ON CAPTIVE
EARTH. It won't be coming out, at least not under that name. It was
felt by those at DC that the the title was misleading in that the story
didn't have much to do with CRISIS. The material intended for CAPTIVE
EARTH will instead be titled LEGENDS. The original art team of Ordway
and Kessel may not be working on LEGENDS, which I believe will be
published this summer. Marv Wolfman is still the writer and editor.

"The Last Superman Story" will be told by ALAN MOORE and CURT SWAN in
this month's SUPERMAN and ACTION titles. Be sure not to miss this!
The shipping dates are below.

THE WATCHMEN by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons begins this month, and will
run for 12 monthly issues. Don't miss this either!

Also beginning this month is THE HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE, three
monthly issues tracing the complete history of DC. This will be
by Wolfman and Perez and will feature in each issue a removable fold-
out centerfold.
>>
>>78796020
> I got some information from DC the other day about CRISIS ON CAPTIVE
> EARTH. It won't be coming out, at least not under that name. It was
> felt by those at DC that the the title was misleading in that the story
> didn't have much to do with CRISIS.

Integrity lives. In all honesty, can you see Marvel doing something like
this? I am getting to be more of a DC supporter every day (however, I still
refuse to read SGT. ROCK. Sorry, but I eat quiche, and this book just
doesn't mix well with it...)

> "The Last Superman Story" will be told by ALAN MOORE and CURT SWAN in
> [...]

> THE WATCHMEN by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons begins this month, and will
> run for 12 monthly issues. Don't miss this either!

Moore seems to be quite busy these days, what with this, MIRACLEMAN and his
Unamed Comic. Well, he seem to be able to produce quality AND quantity...

> Also beginning this month is THE HISTORY OF THE DC UNIVERSE, three
> monthly issues tracing the complete history of DC.
Much nicer than 25 issues of another comic I could mention.
>>
I thought I was going to be free...

Here I was, buying the last year's worth of BATMAN & THE OUTSIDERS (now
ADVENTURES OF THE OUTSIDERS) just for the Alan Davis artwork, but not
liking it (the book, not the artwork) at all, mostly because I dislike
Mike Barr's handling of the Batman (not to mention the arrogance and
sense of self-importance that he seems to display on the letters pages).
And since I really haven't developed a liking for any of the other members,
I was looking forward to giving up the comic went it started reprinting
the stories from the Baxter title.

Unfortunately, however, I've seen that Mike Barr and Alan Davis will be
taking over DETECTIVE COMICS, once Denny O'Neil gets editorship of it
and BATMAN from Len Wein. AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the other hand, Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli will be doing some-
thing like 8 issues of BATMAN, supposedly followed by a "regular" team of
Englehart and Rogers. I have my doubts about Rogers, considering his dead-
line problems. This doubt was somewhat confirmed when I talked a bit with
Julie Schwartz at Boskone (Boston's sf con). He told me that Rogers was
late on the graphic novel adaptation of Ellison's OUTER LIMITS teleplay,
"Demon with a Glass Hand", and that it had to be taken off the schedule (it
was supposed to be next, after THE MERCHANTS OF VENUS) until Rogers finished
it. Julie mentioned that O'Neil asked him how Rogers was on deadlines. When
Julie told him about the graphic novel, O'Neil just sort of sighed and said
something like, "I was afraid of that".
>>
Is there some sort of archive from when BTAS premiered?
>>
>>78793193
Usenet was more like a mailing list, it got distributed to servers and student would read it off a local campus server. Internet was mainly FTP software archives and MUDs back then.
>>
>>78794363
That's some hardcore nostalgia.
>>
>>78794467
I think both things are at fault. Obviously taking a two month nostalgia break while they moved cross country wasn't good for sales, but the post-Convergence relaunch was too much cult not enough reliable sellers.

They didn't even relaunch Supergirl, for christ's sake. Supergirl always sells acceptably and she had a tv show coming.
>>
>>78786541
Nicholson's the weakest joker methinks, that may be writing however.
>>
>>78794473
Tapes. Lots and lots of nine-track magnetic tapes. Google's collection of USENET postings primarily comes from the work done by Henry Spencer, who archived most newsgroups on 141 surplus tapes from 1981-1991 while he was at the University of Toronto, which would be transferred to disk in 2001 by David Wiseman. Most of the other later posts (1991-2004) were inherited from the defunct Dejanews archival service.
>>
>>78797793
Thank you, anon, for being a gentleman and a scholar. I was monitoring this thread hoping for answer
>>
>>78794147
>Man, comics and comic book arguments were a lot more innocent before the SJWs invaded and dedicated themselves to ruining everyone else's fun.
Only people I see ruining everyone else's fun are the people that insist on turning literally every comic discussion into a circle jerk about how some tumblrite hurt your feelings once on some blog on the other side of the internet.
>>
>>78794415
>The problems is SJWs - authoritarian, censorhappy liberals. Not liberalism as a whole.
That you actually think there's any difference between SJWs and your standard liberal is fucking hilarious and just proves that you're one of them and just not self-aware enough to realise it.
>>
>>78798033
Liberalism =/= neo-Liberalism
>>
One thing that I love about the excavation of old Usenet posts is that you can see how little things have actually changed. /v/ is practically the same, so is /wooo/
>>
>>78797987
Touche.

>>78798033
>I can't distinguish between them, therefore there must be no distinction

Let me guess, you're a neo-con and think all conservatives are just like you, too.

>>78797793
Thanks for the answer Anon.
>>
>>78798114
We call classical liberals libertarians now. Or rather, they call themselves that, because they don't want to be associated with neolibs.
>>
>>78798300
the biggest secret of humankind is that we didn't change as people, we only improved our technology.

I mean, imagine ancient greek discussing the play he saw in the theatre with a friend
-meh, it sucked
-WHY do you hate fun?!?
or
-I guess that you're one of these gladiatorfags
>>
>>78793106
>I'm not sure about how the Secret Wars 1 reception was

As mentioned in >>78788035
the reception was bad within Amazing Heroes and Comics Journal, but obviously they had a dismissive view of a lot of Marvel stuff during the 80's.
>>
>>78798494
>the reception was bad within Comics Journal
Well no shit. Did they say anything positive about any capeshit? Niggas were hardcore indiefags before being an indiefag was cool.
>>
>>78785702
>I never thought the sacred cow Zot! was even worth buying once.

pic related

But I do agree that New Mutants and X-Men actually weren't that bad in the 80's in retrospect. Doesn't surprise me that people were shitting on it though.
>>
>>78791962
I wish someone would just have Roy Thomas continue and complete All Star Squadron as if the Crisis On Infinite Earths never happened.
>>
>>78787215
>Monthly average in millions
>>
>>78798551
early/mid 80's Comics Journal still covered superhero comics. Amazing Heroes was also by the same publisher and more focused on superhero stuff. I forgot when TCJ went more indie/alt, probably late 80's/early 90's.
>>
>>78798688
TCJ stopped caring about capes when Shooter left. Groth had a hateboner for Shooter
>>
>>78798780
>TCJ stopped caring about capes when Shooter left.

That's hilarious.
>>
>>78795970
>Part four of "Where is Spider-man?"
>This issue we find out where he is.
Why is this so funny?
>>
>>78796118
>On the other hand, Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli will be doing some-
>thing like 8 issues of BATMAN, supposedly followed by a "regular" team of
>Englehart and Rogers.

Fuck! That didn't even happen! I guess the deadline problem was too much.
>>
>>78787215
So what happened in 1966 that made Marvel more popular?
>>
>>78799257
The Galactus Saga seems like a good reason so I'll go with that.
>>
>>78799257
Making the superheroes more human. DC and other heroes up to that point were typically paragons of virtue who defeated villains, visited strange new worlds, and other adventure story tropes. Stan Lee was the first to give them a more human bend, with problems and stresses that others could relate to -- the Thing looked like a monster, and would often contemplate how people treated him based on his appearance and not his good nature. Spider-Man was a high school teenager with all the problems that included, along with adding a dash of guilt to his origins. The books were adopted by the counter-culture of the time, while DC was seen as old and outdated.
>>
>>78784983
>For the same reason Hal Jordan is the only Green Lantern

Pointless nostalgia for a shit character that got replacements that are much better than him and were in more memorable stories and runs?
>>
>>78799257
>>78799590
In addition, it was around this time when comics were actively pushed towards more audiences other than children/teenagers. Marvel was the most successful at this thanks to the new style of writing, as well as that support from the counter-culture.
>>
>>78799583
Yeah I think they were hitting their stride by this time. Ditko's Spider-Man also hit the peak in the prior year (1966 was when he left, though)
>>
>>78799699
I can't imagine who you're talking about
>>
>>78799583
>>78799728
It wasn't just one thing. The graph shows a steady rise of popularity, not a sharp explosion (as would be the case if there was a single series/story in '66).
>>
>>78787215
Wait, is this newsstand sales or direct sales or newsstand and direct?
>>
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>>78799699
>more memorable stories

Come on son, say what you will about each individual lantern, but Hal has been in/the star of several of the biggest GL stories in its lifetime.
>>
>>78799699
>more memorable stories and runs
John had Mosaic
Kyle has had Ion and maaaybe Morrison's JLA
Guy has had ???
Hal Has had Emerald Dawn, GL/GA, The Spectre and the entirety of Johns' run. Bait harder.
>>
>>78800006
>Guy has had ???

Does JLI count?
>>
>>78799885
The data comes from the Statements of Ownership publishers had to disclose, so I think both.
>>
>>78800006
I would count Circle of Fire as a Kyle story too. That shit was awesome and really showed off what he could do.
>>
>>78800006
>>78800037
Guy had Warrior
AKA The best reinvention of a character I've ever seen
>>
>>78798489
http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Ancient/Graffiti%20from%20Pompeii.htm
>>
>>78800006
I thought Guy Gardener Reborn was pretty good.
>>
>>78794963
Peter's got a pretty firm, sculpted ass
>>
>>78797851
me too
>>
>>78798904
That's fantastic.
>>
>>78784471
>GAG-PUKE-COUGH-GAG-BLECH!!!!!! KITTY PRYDE PUNK!!!! UGH!!!!
Also, when was the last time *you* saw a gang member using proper English??
("Whomever we please!?) This issue had some VERY definite flaws. Oh well.
>Let's get one thing straight. KITTY PRYDE IS NOT PUNK!!!!

>In fact, none of the Marvel characters are punk. Storm, for example, used to be an African Goddess. She got a mohawk. Now she is an African Goddess with a mohawk. Punk has rather little to do with haircuts--it's a state of mind which no character, in any comic
(Marvel or not) I've read, has. It's still an ugly haircut though.

I feel sorry for these mother fuckers not being aware of Love and Rockets existence.
>>
>>78786568
Goddammit, it's the O5 all over again.
>>
>>78801303
At least X-Factor wasn't All-New and it had a good writer.
>>
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>>78786368
>20 years of bad reputation

For doing what? Keeping Kirby employed? Making Superman a household name? Dominating the Silver Age?
>>
>>78786368
I will never understand this "anti-dc bias".

I see people shitting on both companies, while anyone with half a brain will be quick to point out both ones produced good cape comics along the years. No need to act like a drone.
>>
>>78800196
Warrior was cool when he had the yellow ring, but the Vuldarian phase was gross 90s edge, and this is coming from someone who unironically likes the harpoon hand.
>>
>>78797793
Thank you for answering that question anon.
>>
>>78797851
>>78798341
Keep in mind, it's not all of Usenet, just what the PDP-11/44 at UT's zoology department was able to grab (which still was a lot). The speed of discussion was a lot slower, with replies coming by the day rather than the minute. Pic related, it's all of Usenet in June of 1981.
>>
>>78797326
It was definitely the writing, Nicholson was perfect.
>>
>>78803505
>the Vuldarian phase was gross 90s edge

It would have been if Beau Smith hadn't written it as humorously as he did, and the art was almost always comparably exuberant--Phil Jimenez did some solid work in that period.
>>
>>78803888
Ever dance...
>>
>>78787215
Based Marvel putting shitty DC in its place.
>>
>>78787215
DC fags getting BLOWN THE FUCK OUT by Marvel for 50 years.
>>
Anything on Batman or Batman returns?
>>
>>78800587
You mean when they turned him into Star-Lord?
>>
>>78808518
Those weren't out until 1989 and after.
>>
>Actually, if the stinking rumors are true, then the most significant things to happen in '85 are the Defections

>Rumor hath that J Byrne, having chosen to take the job writing and drawing Superman, and having otherwise compromised his position as Chief Blowj*b for Jim Shiiter by a) disagreeing with the insurrection of Jean Grey and b) agreeing in public that artists own their work has been relieved of all Marvel scripting and art duties.

>Further rumor hath that Frank Miller has been released from the DD/Elektra contract by Marvel because of "attitudinal problems"; Miller came out in public supporting Jack Kirby's right to the artwork originals from his time in Marvel.

>In response to these action, rumor has it that Bill Sanciewicz, Louise Simonsen, Steve Englehart (of course), have turned in resignations. There is some hint that others in the staff are preparing resignation letters.

kek
>>
>Secret Snores II qualifies because its huge sales
figures are going to have a real impact on future activity at Marvel (and
elsewhere!); even if there is no Secret Pores III, you can bet your booties
that there will be more such massive-hype-and-impact-on-continuity-everywhere
series.

too real
>>
>>78810203
>"go for the money, never mind the quality" philosophy that is probably going
to cause a hemorrhage of creative talent away from Marvel.

>this has been Marvel's policy for 30+ years
>>
>>78796053
>Integrity lives. In all honesty, can you see Marvel doing something like
this?

Lol, oh wow.
>>
>>78810242
>>78810867
So Marvel has been shit for awhile.
>>
>>78798969
are you memeing
>>
> CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS Predictions

>Characters destined to bite the big one: I think nobody doubts that Flash is gonzo. Since the Supergirl movie bombed out, I think we can safely assume that she's out, too. I also would bet that Green Lantern (E-1 style) goes bye-bye. Ditto E-1 Wonder Woman. To re-iterate what I've said above, things will probably end up much simpler if most of E-1 gets eliminated in favor of E-2.
>>
>>78811609
BOY they started out so well then it all went so wrong
>>
>>78791142
People keep replying to it.
>>
Lol at the sad fuck who is desperately begging for anime dealers. What a sad time to be alive.
>>
Is there a group for cartoons as well?
>>
>>78811667
>Bart of Darkness
Lol

I wonder if people in the future will be reading our shit in the archives and be laughing about it.
>>
>>78812450
I don't think. The Internet has expanded since those days. It'd be hard to archive dozen of comics book communities websites
>>
>>78811609
>Since the Supergirl movie bombed out, I think we can safely assume that she's out, too
>cape movies effecting the comics 30 years ago
>>
>>78810137
Why does /co/ constantly treat Shooter like he was some sort of savior of comics? Maybe in his early days, but he'd overstayed his welcome sometime in the 80s. All of the talent that was starting to leave the company because of him is proof of that.
>>
>>78812488
Are you retarded? The internet is more archived than ever. 4chan has more archives than most sites, even. And there's the Wayback machine project.
>>78812450
>>>/jp/5113498
>>
>>78812573

The Supergirl movie was a very public and very disastrous flop for DC, in a way that most cape movies weren't at that time.
>>
>>78812730
Yeah but how many posts were lost when Moe died?
>>
>>78812705
it's because he was editor for a lot of all-time great runs, and probably most importantly gave Miller his first ongoing
>>
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>>78784471
>mfw reading those posts
Man, its like nothing has changed
>>
>>78812918
I know, right. I hear people say all the time about how "this generation" is more whiny and nitpicky than the last, but it's really not. The only difference is that the current generation's bitching is easier to see
>>
>>78809767
Yes, but doesn't this board have stuff from later in the 1980's?
>>
>>78813760
Not the same anon, but there's most be some archive from the 90s. I want to read people reaction to BTAS and the creation of Harley and the eventual pairing of Harley/Ivy
>>
>>78811667
that .sig is not McQ
>>
>>78811609
These poor, poor fools who thought there was a chance Earth-2 would come out the main earth.
>>
>>78815364
Yes, yes!
>>
>>78788035
The Comics Journal and Amazing Heroes, from what I know, really hated the fuck out of Marvel. Gary Groth pretty much saw them as Satan and destroying the comic industry.
>>
>>78813760
Not this one. I think it's like 1984 to 1987 or 88.
>>
>>78811609
Man, this is makes the predictions that /co/ makes sound normal
>>
>>78818207
Well, half of it was true.
>>
>>78820133
but the other half was so very very wrong
>>
>>78815494
In hindsight, that probably would've been the best option.
>>
>>78812705
Cause in hindsight, Shooter did oversee the time when Marvel appeared professionally run. But yeah, the Shooter era gets overrated because people overlook what happened in the final years with things like Secret Wars II and talent exodus.
>>
>>78794195
There's nothing "sjw" about Green Lantern/Green Arrow, you fucking moron.
>>
>>78821025
it gets overrated because he oversaw some of the most iconic runs of all time, and jumpstarted Frank Miller's career
>>
>>78794378
>>78794430
>>78794499
>>78796470
There also used to be private servers that you could connect to if you had the know how and the necessary connection information. Usually these would be run from someone's home. These were mostly used for BBS/chat shit and occasionally text-based games. This is a major plot point in Steve Gerber's Foolkiller miniseries.
>>
>>78799257
Nothing. Marvel began to steal readers from DC as soon as FF debuted and 1966 just happened to be the year they hit the tipping point.
>>
>>78822275
I dunno, that "hey mister Green Lantern who saves the whole planet we live on all the time, how come you never do anything for the black skins?" scene is illogical enough to have come straight off a tumblr blog.
>>
>>78822599
That scene is literally saying "why don't superheroes fight against segregation/racism", which was actually a valid question. Of course the answer is just a simple "because they're not real", but that's besides the point. It was just O'Neil trying to project realism into cape books (as in highlighting that superheroes don't deal with real world problems), not to politicize them.
>>
>>78795266
Yep Marvel is trying to hard to be hip with the youth. And the way technology moves it'll be more like 5 years.
>>
>>78822715
>which was actually a valid question.

No it fucking wasn't. They're essentially super-cops. They're no more equipped to fight racism than regular cops. You can't solve racism by beating the shit out of people.
>>
>>78799699
It never ceases to amaze me that there are people out there who unironically like Kyle Rayner, the Poochie Lantern. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, I guess.
>>
>>78792351
I get so fucking pissed when someone thinks online connectivity started in like 1995 and associates early computing with Windows 3.11 and stuff.
>>
>>78799725
Yeah, it's when the college crowd started picking up on stuff like Silver Surfer.
>>
>>78794028
>II.7 (gladiator barracks); 8792: On April 19th, I made bread
go blog about it on your twitter
>>
>>78822529
>This is a major plot point in Steve Gerber's Foolkiller miniseries.

You wouldn't happen to have a DL link would you? I just read the 00's runs of Foolkiller and I'd like to read the older stuff.
>>
>>78822275
In one issue the villain is literally a former Nazi who's oppressing and exploiting people

GL/GA is SJW as hell that's not a bad thing either, SJW Ollie is best Ollie
>>
>>78795266
Marvel isnt the one doing Special Selfie Month cover which i think its really stupid and will get dated too soon.
although the rap month cover isnt that better.
but selfies are worse.
>>
>>78826286
The selfie covers were all really cute though
>>
>>78826286
I don't really see how amateur self-portrait photography are gonna go out of style unless there is a massive zeitgeist shift against displays of vanity
>>
>>78800006
like just solo runs?

Guy and Kyle were great in Gibson and Tomasi's GLC. Emerald Warrior & Soule's Red Lantern were good as well.
>>
>>78827764
Ah, I forgot Red Lanterns. And, yeah, I thought about GLC, but in the end that's really a group story, no?
>>
>>78784471
Reading all of those threads where everyone was dreading the rumors of Jean Grey being revived for X-Factor was so entertainingly suffering and spot on about how it was all going to go down months before the story was published.
>>
>>78784471
bump
>>
>>78826286
>>78826987
Both are terrible.
>>
>>78823238
Fucking lamers man...
>>
>>78795266
>characters constantly plugging apps and taking selfies
I hate that so much.
>>
>>78820970
Reminds of Claremont's idea to kill Earth One Superman and have the original Earth Two version adjusting to the new world.

But wholesale destroying the Silver Age? Not just killing Barry but erasing his and Hal's legacies in favor of Jay and Alan? That would mean no Wally, no Kyle, possibly no Green Lantern Corps at all. It would be a very different world, for sure.
>>
>>78791142
People don't change, anon. There was some ancient post from the early days of /v/ and it was the exact same shitposting.
>>
>>78839110
Nothing should be destroyed... Except for the New 52.
>>
>>78843932
>5 years later
>people are still bitter
>>
Is this thread really still here? God damn.
>>
>>78825376
>not being a Nazi makes you a sjw

You're literally just making up definitions of terms out of thin air.
>>
>>78843962
Man you should've seen how long people were angry at the changes made by Byrne's Man of Steel
>>
>>78844675
I'm still angry over those.
>>
>>78843962
>it's 1990
>people are still bitter over COIE

How long WERE people bitter over COIE for? Were they angry until they had new stuff to be angry about in the early 90s like DAROS and Zero Hour?
>>
>>78844361
>F) Homosexual Representations

lol, and we're still getting people whining about "sjws" and "/co/mblr" and shit 30 years later
>>
>>78848201
Agreed. But there weren't as much.
>>
>>78822736
It's not necessarily youth. Just stupid youth. I'm a young guy and I hate that shit.
>>
>>78853613
you're probably stupid about something, though

I mean, you're here
>>
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>>78792824
One of the general posters. I remember him from my days on Usenet as well.
>>
>>78786368
Fuck, man. People just don't like DC as much. It's not fair man.
>>
>>78794860
In 1997 or so my friend and I logged in to another friend's university account and stupidly trolled the atheist group on Usenet. We posted shit like "Jesus loves you" -- nothing mean like "you're going to Hell" or anything. Anyway, the angry atheists complained and got my friend's account yanked and we had to impersonate her to get it reinstated. So don't troll atheists.

>>78795145
Go to Google Groups and do a search. Try rec.arts.comics.dc.universe (and there's a rac.marvel.universe and marvel.xbooks).
>>
>>78839110
Well the quote said "most of E-1" not all of it. So maybe some stuff might slip through like Martian Manhunter or Alan getting a costume with the Silver Age GL colors instead.

Don't get me wrong, I did actually like what we ended up getting. But having them roll back to Golden Age is funny to think of because with the New 52 they kind of abandoned the Golden Age and some Modern Age legacies in favor of Silver/Bronze Age.

Realistically though I get why they went with Earth-1's versions, they've heavily marketed them after all, so they're the ones most people would remember.
>>
>>78855196
Is there any special format to look for them? Because that kind of confuses me.
>>
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>>78856391
Click on 'Groups' here on the left-hand side. That'll bring up the 'search for groups or messages' search box. In there, you type the name of the group you want (rec.arts.comics.dc.universe or whatever). That should bring up the name of the group, and you click on there to enter. And from there you can use the search box to look for terms which interest you.

Or you can see if this link works.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/rec.arts.comics.dc.universe

I think this is the only way to search though old Usenet posts these days. I could be wrong though, and anyone else can feel free to correct me.
>>
>>78855451
It would have been interesting for a married Wonder Woman with a daughter to become the main Wonder Woman.

Probably Earth One Batman would have stayed because Earth Two Batman was dead.
>>
>>78856668
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/rec.arts.comics.dc.universe/a5U3pbzvD6s

>Dammit, if they're not going to let us have multiple universes and Earth 2, why do they keep tormenting us with stuff from the past? I'm delighted to have the Archive series and the Alan Moore Superman stories and the Greatest Stories books and all the rest--especially Secret Origins, which brought back many fond memories (and saved me the problem of digging the original out of storage), BUT--

>If TPTB are -so- determined to keep the Multiverse locked in the back room, why do they keep reminding us of what we had and what we -could- have? If they'd realize that it takes even a dull eight-year-old about two minutes to work out the whole multiple-Earth thing, they'd scrap the whole post-Crisis universe, which has created (IMHO) -far- more continuity problems than it has solved. I mean, how many plug-in retcons (and corrected retcons, and re-corrected retcons) have there been in the last 13 years?

>Bring back Hal Jordan and let him make things right. (Or did he really accomplish his goal, and set the heroes who opposed him on a world where they're unaware of the Multiverse?)
>>
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>>78786368
Damn, the DC hate goes back way further than I imagined.
>>
best thread I've ever seen on /co/.
>>
>So, after reading the Harley Quinn one-shot, I'm left wondering, "is the Joker
now a confirmed heterosexual?"
>Before I get flamed unforgivingly, let me explain myself a little. First
of all, there are some people who try to find homosexuality in any situation.
They write Dixon letters congratulating "Birds of Prey" for accuratley
portraying a mature lesbian relationship. I am not one of these people.
Homosexuality will be the LAST thing I find in a story, unless it's plainly
spelled out for me.
>However, I'm a little different when it comes to the Joker. I've always
seen him as completely a-sexual. Having no desire whatsoever. But that theory
has been put into question ever since I read an interview with Frank Miller
where he described the Joker as a "homophobic's worst nightmare." That got me
thinking. The Joker's main motivation is to annoy Batman. In any hostage
situation, Batman is the first person he asks for. Basically, the man appears
to have a think for Bats.
>But now here in "Harley Quinn" you've got the Joker basically telling her
he doesn't want her around because she stirs up feelings. Now, maybe that's
just her appealing to the sane man he once was (remember part of the reason he
went nuts was the death of his wife).
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those continuity nit-pickers. I
understand that the Joker is a character open to interperatation. One writer
could show him as being completely in love with Quinn and another could show
him completely ignoring her, and neither would be "out of continuity." I just
want to know if he's "technically" straight now by DCU standards. For example,
even though no one mentions it and it's basically been forgotten, Batman
"technically" has a child from the "Son of the Demon" story.
>Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.
>>
>>78854542
Welcome to the world, man. Didn't you get the memo? As a DC fan I always had to struggle with the fact that Marvel was always way more popular.
>>
>>78855196
>>78856668
Thanks anon
>>
>>78860686
I was surprised when I found out Marvel's comics were nearly always more popular because when I was growing up DC had a much bigger pop culture presence
>>
Is it just me, or does there seem to be some sort of concerted effort to
introduce or emphasize female characters as the stars of their own books at DC
lately and they all seem to utilize the same strategy? You could say that this
started in the mid to late 1990's. We've had Wonder Woman forever but we all
know that's only because of a copyright agreement made with the creator over 50
years ago. DC realizes that girl books are always a precariously balanced
thing, so when they slowly test things out, nurture and cultivate a fan
following over a span of some time and usually feature them in high profile
“family titles” like the Superman or Batman family, the resultant books usually
work out. They don't always do this, but they are learning it's a pretty
successful formula nowadays. We had a follow-up to the Catwoman mini-series
from 1989 with an ongoing, but they gave it time to test out Selina’s fan
following with plenty of guest appearances and of course the mini drew lots of
favorable reviews. They did the same thing with Supergirl, she had lots of
exposure since her new origin as Matrix in various Supertitles, and we had big
name talent like Roger Stern doing her mini and they got none other than PAD to
do her ongoing. Birds of Prey was a slow but steady climb. They had the first
mini, and tons of specials and Oracle has been building a fan following in the
various Bat Books as well as the old Suicide Squad series. Black Canary has
been guest starring all over the place since post-Crisis continuity started,
including some time in the various Justice League books, exposure in various
Green Arrow series, and several other DC titles. BOP is still struggling to
stay alive, but it’s not doing too badly. Not only that, but they are debuting
both a Harley Quinn series and an ongoing for the newest Batgirl next year.
Plus we’ve got the Body Doubles mini. Anyone think an ongoing will be in order
for them? I hope not?
>>
>>78860779
Now, let’s look at the ongoing series that haven’t succeeded in the past decade
--

Huntress -- had plenty of exposure in the Bat family, but did she get her own
mini series first to measure her marketability to that audience? Nope. And
the result? Cancelled after 19 issues.

Chase -- No mini, only one unfavorable appearance in one of the Batman titles.
Not much promotion, even in the Girlfrenzy week they right around the same time
it debuted. Cancelled.

Anima -- Debut in one of the Bloodlines Annuals, but not much exposure, very
little cultivation of a fan following and no quality talent, either.
Cancelled.


Conclusion: when DC follows the formula of exposing superheroines in Superman
or Batman family franchise (including the animated series), cultivating the fan
following for several years and waits for the right moment to launch an
ongoing, and hiring quality talent, it works. When they don’t, it doesn’t.
This should be the formula for all new series, but for titles with female
leads, it is even more critical. I give credit to DC for learning from its
mistakes, as opposed to Marvel, which never seems to.
>>
>Arleen Sorkin was the surprise of the show. She's got Harley's mannerisms
>down pat, from lovestruck bimbo to oh-so-nutty psycho to her little squeal
>of delight when the Joker decides to "claim what's his". She's either
>very talented or as loopy as Harley.

I kind of doubt Poison Ivy will want to team up with her again,
though, because of Harley's continued infatuation with the Joker.
>>
>>78786927
Usenet already existed back in the 80s and was popular among nerds in college.
>>
>> with Batman. Kind of a homicidal Oscar Wilde, if you can imagine it.
>
>> I guess I'm getting a little tired of the Joker being more a bully
>> than anything else, particularly in this episode.
>
>I've always thought of the Joker as a bully. Sadist, sociopath, and serial
>killer, actually, but bully is the only thing you can show on children's
>television. (And this irks me; the "real" Joker kills people, lots of them,
>for no reason except as punchlines to his twisted jokes. It's his schtick,
> his
>raison d'etre ... but you can't do it on children's TV. But at least they go
>as far as they can.)
>
unless you look at Harley's comments in "Harley and Ivy". (i'd like to admit
that this is all inferred from the episode and is MHO(tm)) anyhoo, Harley
has a line when she is receiveing the poison innoculation from Poison Ivy that
is something like: "You'd think living with Mr. J I'd be used to pain." That
and the way she was acting, trying to defend the Joker's past actions, her
whole attitude towards the Joker -- perhaps Harley has been physically abused,
possibly sexually abused, by the Joker. Because this is "a kid's show", i'm
assuming that the makers of BTAS aren't going to come out and say that one of
the recurring villians is a pedophile.

in another thread, someone asked if Harley is insane. IMHO, she is confused.

Another thing that i may be reading too much into on this episode: What is
Poison Ivy's sexual orientation? From the way she was acting...was she annoyed
at Harley for worshipping Mr J, or was she jealous? Sure there were several
"gal friends" scenes, but still, i think that there was more than just a feeling
of friendship growing on Pam's half.
>>
>>78861419
> Another thing that i may be reading too much into on this episode: What is
> Poison Ivy's sexual orientation? From the way she was acting...was she
annoyed
> at Harley for worshipping Mr J, or was she jealous? Sure there were several
> "gal friends" scenes, but still, i think that there was more than just a
feeling
> of friendship growing on Pam's half.

Well, considering Ivy generally prefers plants to humans, one might expect her
to go overboard when she finds a human she actually likes. She might simply be
starved for (two-sided) conversation.
>>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!search/Batman$20Harley$20Ivy/alt.comics.batman/f8_1x5iPYe8/7wqCUDFMoaIJ

B:TAS : is Poison Ivy *GAY?* ("Not Tonight Baby") Your opinion please

There's something Ive been wondering ever since I saw the The Harley &
Ivy ep on BTAS :

Is the BTAS Poison Ivy a Lesbian? (and if so is she in love with Harley
Quinn?)

Here's a few things that make me wonder :

* The Harley and Ivy episode ; says "Not tonight baby" to Montoya,
appears to feel very strongly about Harl's feelings (resents her longing
for Mr J) and why does the Joker try to poison *her* after he find's out
Harl's moved in with her?

* Bat adv #12 : Ivy freaks out when she sees Harley get K.Oed

* BA #23 : there's an autographed photo of Harl in Ivy's cell, guess it
gets lonely in arkham, she also looks pretty down in BA annual #1 when
harley leaves

* BA holiday special : I'd swear Ivy's idea to kidnap Bruce Wayne to
give Harley a shopping spree, seems to be an attempt to win her
affections

In the letter column of B&Radv#12 someone wrote that issue #8 seemed
outta character for Ivy; kidnapping and "Using" Robin, when it appears
rather obvious that she has strong feelings for Harley (who has no idea
that she feels this way about her). Maybe we're reading too much into
these things.

Bruce Timm and Paul Dini were supposed to be working on a Harley and IVY
miniseries but it seems to have gotten delayed due to S:TAS commitments
, apparently it'll be "more risque" with the duo having a "two-page
shower", if this isnt in the Arkham shower rooms I'm really gonna
wonder.
>>
>>78861352
>I kind of doubt Poison Ivy will want to team up with her again,
>though, because of Harley's continued infatuation with the Joker.
I wonder where that guy is today and if he realizes how hilariously wrong he was
>>
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>>78860812
>mfw marvel still hasn't learn
>>
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!search/Harley$20Ivy/rec.arts.comics.dc.universe/0MvMKEI7KWc/GgXDGjc0E70J

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