>>78762213 >in an abusive relationship but refused to leave That's the entire subtext of Jessica Jones and Killgrave as well.
In both cases, it's not "her fault." It's just the big evil man who was so charming and irresistible that she'd dance to whatever tune he was singing.
Think about what this says about a woman's ability to make choices for herself. She has complete and total agency until a powerful man gives her vajayjay tingles and then she's effectively mind controlled.
>>78762737 Because a "good role model" for girls only has to "do whatever she wants." Having morals or self restraint of any of the other "great power = great responsibility" hogwash is just the patriarchy trying to control women.
Harley and Joker made sense in the context of her original creation. She was a bit of a ditz, and the Joker wasn't this hyper-abusive, disfigured, overtly sadistic freak. The Joker was a lunatic to be sure, and he didn't treat Harley well, but damn it, he at least did things to keep her around. Even if it was just being a manipulator, he played along with Harley unless it actually got in the way of more important things.
This doesn't happen anymore, and it's why they've sort of distanced Harley from the Joker as much as possible now. The Joker became edge and chaos incarnate with the success of TDK, and while you can write up an entirely lunatic edgelord Harley to match, even that doesn't really work as well as losing the original semi-innocence that made Harley a unique character.
>>78762737 Because they hit a goldmine with her popularity and thanks to video games is probably the first woman in DC normal people think of. Can't have your top chick be presented as a bad guy. "Presented" being the key word.
>>78762691 I know this is sort of left field but people do the same shit when it comes to women. It's always someone else's fault.
She fucks someone, it's the man's fault. Two people get drunk and the women has consensual sex, she didn't know better because alcohol.
She has sex with someone outside of her race. It's propaganda and the partner's fault.
It's standard behaviour of being infantilsed and women feed on that shit, they literally like having someone else in charge because it alleviates them of all decision making.
I know it's sexist but it's the truth. I've been with a lot of women both in and without romantic relationships. Women are terrible decision makers about roughly anything. Feminist love that shit too, they love being treated like children who need to be coddled.
It's so frustrating because you want women to be strong and independent and of course there are other women who recognise this trend but the amount of women who love just being what they are now severely outweigh them. Both in size and in numbers.
I don't mind the ditz part being an act. Harley has to have some level of competence to be noteworthy in Gotham, after all, and she WAS a psychiatrist. Neither of those things would really make sense if she was a complete buffoon. And it's a pretty common trope for the stupid comic relief to secretly be smart.
Inb4 she slept her way to her degree, but that still implies a degree of social savvy and manipulation that a full retard wouldn't have
>I don't mind the ditz part being an act. Harley has to have some level of competence to be noteworthy in Gotham, after all, and she WAS a psychiatrist. Neither of those things would really make sense if she was a complete buffoon. And it's a pretty common trope for the stupid comic relief to secretly be smart.
Didn't the comics change it so that she slept her way through college, rather than just being intelligent but vulnerable/easily manipulated?
>>78763269 i always figured the joker literally warped her mind. Whether during or after his therapy I dunno. He's pretty good with chemistry, y'know? I mean harley prime will always be DCAU, and she had episodes where she got outta arkham on parole and was still a complete airhead, if not moreso than usual. Yet we also saw she was totally okay beforehand, not even suspicious that she had that position and when she's an old woman she's a hilarious old crank
it's still pretty bad even for her that she tortured the fuck out of tim, but that only endorses the idea of it being chemical mindfuckery on her part
>>78763350 dammit i could actually be into this little character wrinkle if it wasn't for the fact that Lobo is fucking stronger than superman and a total oddball character not meant to be taken seriously or even THOUGHT OF in the same brainbreath as woman-not-taking-shit-anymore
>>78763064 before anyone gets their rage boner going; this single poster was put up by one student. Was nearly immediately taken down because everyone knew it was retarded. This wasn't part of a campaign or anything.
>>78763217 make a blog, i am so sick of having to read posts like this when i just want to talk about comics and cartoons. this type of shitposting wasn't even prevalent until ~2013 but now i can't browse this board without having to scroll past people complaining about women.
if this is bait it worked because i am really tired of having my browsing experience ruined by posts that are stretching to be relevant.
also i liked it better when harley was in an abusive relationship but genuinely believed there was a kernel of love in him for her that would eventually emerge. the idea that she just went with it and in a way outsmarted the joker defeats her character - the whole point was that she was somebody who was equipped to see all the signs and still blew past them for 'love.'
>>78763449 It's really telling that Harley was everything that SJWs probably hated most in what a woman could be. Willingly abused, obsessed with her man, stupid and violent. Yet they take her at face value and adopt her as some kind of icon.
>>78763508 No, you misunderstand. It's not a matter of hate because of circumstance, it's a matter of her popularity excuse.
Batman is stupid popular and so are all associated properties. The only reason Harley is an anti-hero now is no fault of any in universe excuse but rather it's merely because people know who she is and they can't write her being an outright bad guy so they changed her alignment.
That's all there is to Quinn, she has no substance or traceable direction. She just woke up one day and decided that she's going to help the local Carnie folk or team up with other iconic super heroines. It's dastardly insulting.
>>78763539 more like anti hero She's committed to doing her own thing which is being a nuisance but overall she's now just living her life and killing criminals indiscriminately while doing business and helping friends
>>78763709 This is what happens when a Character that was created just to be a sex doll gets famous, At least Ivy had a personality, i am believe that Harley will get out of this hole, we survived Waypool, we can survive this shit
>>78763397 >>78763774 It's from Injustice, where every character who wasn't Superman Strong got super-pills to make them strong enough to duke it out hand to hand with beasts like Doomsday and Lobo, because the whole comic was written to make a fighting game make sense.
That's the only reason she didn't explode into chunky salsa. Because she took super pills in an alternate universe where Superman went dictator crazy.
>>78763709 Well all of those developments were born out of her getting a bit of off time with the suicide squad So now she can be on the squad help deathstroke do her team up stuff run gang of harley's etc
Its random but it flows from what was going on in Suicide Squad
>>78763492 I think Joker gets off to having broken her which is the big reason he keeps her around. Any affection he shows is probably calculated to keep her under his boot. If he ever broke Batman, though, Harley would be shoved into a trash compactor to make space for his new Batbitch.
>>78762213 >Is DC so incapable of just admitting Harley was in an abusive relationship but refused to leave because she was sure Joker would get "better" ? That would be great, actually, because it happens ALL THE TIME
>>78762580 >Think about what this says about a woman's ability to make choices for herself. She has complete and total agency until a powerful man gives her vajayjay tingles and then she's effectively mind controlled. Reminds me to Hana Yori Dango and countless shoujo mangas
>>78763974 >Is that supposed to be funny? I thought you were supposed to imagine yourself plowing her snow white clown pussy in that top panel pose. That's what I did. That's why she got her own book, right?
Harley was an interesting lackey. She was literally made to compliment the Joker, and the way he sort of played along with her insane delusions of theirs being a romantic relationship was interesting. Any outsider could see he was just using her as a completely loyal yet expendable peon he didn't give a shit about, but she was so wrapped up in her delusion that she ignored all the obvious signs and convinced herself he loved her in spite of his abuse.
This attempt to remove her from Joker and make her competent ruins the interesting parts of her character. She worked as a sort of tragic battered spouse to a super villain, where she could disturbingly maintain some innocence but still do heinous things for him. Now when she does heinous things while acting childish, she just seems like a lolsorandomviolence xD character.
I dunno, I guess it's not a huge loss. Harley was never the most important character. But I feel like what was good about her character wasn't that she was a zany, random, competent female villain. What was good about her character is that she would probably never being doing this shit if it weren't for the Joker. She wasn't innately evil or criminally insane. Her form of insanity was just a total fixation on the idea love, and the Joker is the one who recognized that and exploited it to make her commit evil acts.
New Harley just feels like someone read her character description as "the crazy female clown villain" and based everything entirely off of that, missing the nuance that made her character at least a little interesting.
it's explicitly spelled out that people can't resist Kilgrave's commands, complete with pseudoscientific explanation as to why. Their angst over being mind controlled stems not only from the fact he makes them do whatever he wants but also that while they're under his control they WANT to do whatever he tells them to do and once they're free they have to live with the horror of their experience and the self-doubt that comes along with your mind overruling the one small part of itself screaming "no I don't want this"
He makes you do something and you do it; he doesn't compromise your morals and then let you choose to do it
>>78764349 lolsorandomxd was the entirety of her character from conception Its like people really try so hard to find this depth to her character to contrast it from how she's portrayed now when it was never there
>>78764465 Injustice Harley only perpetuated the feminism. I absolutely love the comic, but Harley's "I'm strong and independent" now angle never sat well with me. Felt like it was laid on pretty thick, especially since she just ends up jumping into the alternate Joker's arms.
>>78764576 She knew he was exactly the same. She just didn't give a shit until he tried to kill her again. Then she snapped back to tumblrquinn. And you can bet she'd just get over it the second she started craving jokercock again.
>>78763937 >Literally mind controlled Within the context of the narrative, yes. I'm talking about the subtext. What do these powers and weaknesses say about the archetypes that these characters embody?
It says that a woman's agency stops at a man's charm.
>>78764403 >subtext is rape Rape that was enabled because her sense of self literally dissolved at the suggestion of a well dressed man with a foreign accent.
>>78763574 Maybe it's just me, but that doesn't seem to fit at all. It doesn't come off as quirky, clever or even absurd. Just shoehorned lines from the old Harley combined with action that seems entirely wrong for her.
Umm, but there is a slight difference seeing as Kilgraves entire M.O. was using his powers to make people do his bidding. Jess wasn't herself, the entire span of the Alias series was her coming to realize she could forgive herself for what happened/occurred due to this fact... In Harley's case she was simply "playing along".
>>78765085 >It says that a woman's agency stops at a man's charm. Or it just says that Jessica was mind controlled by a psychopath. Not everything is a deep statement about society or whatever the fuck. Why can't stories just be stories to you people?
Does anyone else long for the opportunity to write a Harley solo book for the express purpose of getting her back on track by nuking everything "trendy" about her so that all her annoying fans go away? If nothing else just for the ensuing anal ravaging that would come from it?
>>78766531 That was in Injustice, where all the normie heroes and villains took super pills that made them super strong and near indestructible. (To explain in the game why fights like Superman vs Green Arrow could even possibly last more than .2 seconds)
>>78766634 What the fuck are you even talking about, faggot? Just spit it out, man you're not even making any sense right now with this comment. Did you respond to the wrong post or some shit or are you just trolling?
>>78767105 >She was meant to be a female version of joker in original Batman aniamted. Even that's not right. Harley was -literally- just a background henchmen, Joker's number 2 that he could actually converse with so we as the audience could hear his plan. Even her voice and personality were just molded after Arleen Sorkin since Paul Dini knew her.
I don't know why people don't like this new direction for Harley. She is a strong female character who isn't afraid to get her hands dirty to do the right thing. She is essentially a half way foil to the Batman and Joker.
No he's right, shut the fuck out about your pussy troubles, Jesus fucking Christ. It has nothing to do with comics and cartoons. Make a tumblr and whine about your personal life there or go complain on /pol/, that's what it's for. This kind of shit is literally cancer, infecting threads and making them suck and finally killing them as they're deleted by the mods. It is fucking annoying.
>>78762580 >Think about what this says about a woman's ability to make choices for herself. She has complete and total agency until a powerful man gives her vajayjay tingles and then she's effectively mind controlled.
You realize many men do this as well right? Why do people try to ascribe gender-exclusivity to problems that affect everyone?
>>78763627 >make a blog, i am so sick of having to read posts like this when i just want to talk about comics and cartoons. this type of shitposting wasn't even prevalent until ~2013 but now i can't browse this board without having to scroll past people complaining about women.
GEE WHIZ I WONDER WHO STARTED SHOEHORNING GENDER ARGUMENT INTO EVERY FUCKING SUBCULTURE ON THE INTERNET
SURELY IT WASN'T FEMINISTS
You made your fucking bed, now you sleep in it. Stupid cunt.
the subtext was "stalkers and rapists can seem charming and think they're acting out of love," not "women will wet their panties if a rapist looks like Doctor Who." The entire arc is about the horrible flaws and assumptions that drive people like Kilgrave and the damage they (and the tactics they use) wreak upon their victims and how survivors cope when they've been violated. How are you getting charm kills agency out of that?
>>78763803 Wrong. Sociopaths lack the inherent self control and inhibited emotion.
>>78764982 100% wrong. Both terms are still valid and extremely different from APD. At the very least you could argue Sociopathic tendencies were a spectrum for Psychopathic but to claim psychopathy, a neurologically evident phenomena, doesn't exist pegs you as someone talking above their station.
>>78774698 >can literally be seen in brain activation patterns >American whine council don't like it Have you heard about their in fighting over stupid shit like OCD because of 'personal reasons'? Absolute joke
>>78771949 >You realize many men do this as well right? Why do people try to ascribe gender-exclusivity to problems that affect everyone? Those problems affect everyone, yes. The difference is in how the people involved are treated by others.
When a woman stays in an abusive relationship, it's treated as entirely the man's fault for leading the poor innoccent victim astray.
When a man stays in an abusive relationship, he's treated as a dumbass who keeps on thinking with his dick instead of using common sense.
I've had to put up with both sides of this with the people I know, and the differences really wear on one after a while. also, dealing with a relative in an abusive relationship is some of the most aggravating shit ever
It happens more often than you think; Alfred owes his appearance to the live-actor who first played him (he was previously overweight), and both Batgirl and Jimmy Olsen were created for the '60s Batman series and '40s Superman Radio series respectively. Actually, Jimmy Olsen is interesting in that he migrated to the comics twice; once after the radio program and once again after the Aventures of Superman used him.
>>78774867 >When a woman stays in an abusive relationship, it's treated as entirely the man's fault for leading the poor innoccent victim astray. People really think that? Even as a kid, i.e. when I was much more empathetic, I thought my aunt was an idiot for staying with my (thankfully) former uncle.
>>78785977 It was quietly ignored and never addressed again, meaning it has just as much relevance to her story as that time Batman shat his pants, or was raped by a punk rocker, or teamed up with Joe Chill to fight a man with blades for hands. They don't even reference the origin in that issue.
>>78764286 >http://www.newsarama.com/27435-palmiotti-conner-taking-harley-quinn-back-to-gotham-joker.html >But as the main series hits the two-year mark this month, the character will prove just how independent and self-confident she's grown as she goes into Arkham Asylum to rescue her new boyfriend from her familiarly villainous old one. Absolutely disgusting
>>78762213 If they did that it would be admitting that a popular female character has a realistic weakness and flaw and isn't empowered and shit and we can't have any popular female characters that don't fit into a bland bourgeois image of what an empowered woman should be like now can we
She wanted the class ranking on top of the degree so she could get into Arkham. The degree alone would've been easy without the smooching. She still knew enough to write a thesis and get a passing grade on it.
She had ambition, a plan, and the drive to get the psych degree and Arkham job she wanted so she could get access to the Joker. Her endgame was the Joker but he threw a wrench into all of that and since she had nothing else planned in-universe, her separation with the Joker just puts her in writing limbo as villian of the week which is why writers keep trying to reboot her and rewrite chunks of her so they can point their version of Harley to a new direction but it always falls flat.
Also why Harley threads devolve into endless shitposting about what is TRUE Harley. We should just get our own tvtropes entry for No True Harley to catalogue just how much of /co/'s shitposting is devoted to discussing how every Harley incarnation isn't a true Harley.
>>78792619 In the animated universe she was studying to get a psychology degree, slept with one of the professors to get higher grades, went into Arkam because she wanted to be a big shot and cure the most dangerous psychos, then she met the Joker
Then the solo canon book she got later retconned that she was a bit crazy since day one, killed her boyfriend by using him as an unaware test subject for experiments with Joker's poison, plus she didn't actually sleep with that one professor, only blackmailed him so she could get into Arkam to meet her idol
>>78791222 Don't argue the point The people who are hating on new feminist Harley don't seem to understand the new concept of a new continuity so they will keep bringing up her sleeping her way to a medical degree as if its still canon
Its just a childish bait response at this point just post this page and tell them to read comics
>>78792952 You can't waltz into a 4 year argument about origins and squeeze out a petty deflection like that into a neat little coil.
If Harley had a consistent push from the start, instead of shifting from yet another abuse victim/sociopath to a savvy, quirky, empowered bombshell in one big jerking motion, it'd be less glaring. If her new fans would stop bullshitting her new character into her old one, it'd be less obnoxious. Either of those two things are enough to argue about. Combined, and then paired with that general "no u" attitude her newest fans have, it's insufferable.
>>78763574 >background: psychatrist falling in love with her patient >for some reason outpowers armed prison thugs twice her size Nothing wrong with Harley kicking ass, but at least don't show it in a pure brawl contest. It's the complete opposite of how she fought in BTAS.
>>78793219 In the old canon her slightly superhuman strenght was justified with a power-up gift from Poison Ivy, but did that even happen in the New52? I'm not familiar with it Plus this Harley had a toxic bath like Joker, didn't she? Maybe it has something to do with that
Joker's core has changed too, though...he went from Clown Prince of Crime to The Devil Incarnate (Wearing Clown Makeup). He went from being a guy with a penchant for wisecracks and goofy criminal schemes to an axe-crazy psychopath who even Batman is afraid of
>>78793924 Eh, I kinda undestand where they're coming from tho, one of the problems of modern, internet feminists is that they declare every little shit a victory of theirs, so Harley is giving up on Joker more than usual? Hooray, feminism prevails once again! And that's ignoring the marketers trying to bank on said attitude
There's also the recent deal with the people claiming movie Harley shouldn't be depicted as a slut because NuHarley isn't (supposedly) a slut, and so old fans end up blaming this reaction on NuHarley herself instead of the idiotic new fanbase
>>78794135 The people i mentioned complain about stuff on her clothes like "Daddy's little monster" or "Property of the Joker", they accuse the movie of making Harley a weak, 2sexy4feminism woman that worships her abuser, because instead the *real* Harley is strong, indipendent and "an actual doctor"
Those bitching about the chance of her fucking Smith instead are just the spawn of /tv/
>>78793443 >In the old canon her slightly superhuman strenght was justified with a power-up gift from Poison Ivy Meh, I can understand that, seeing how close the two of them were and the power-level of Ivy, but it's a bit unecessary IMO. In TAS she wasn't about strength ; she was quick and agile, true, but her main advantages was her resourcefulness. She used guns, traps, explosives, vehicles, surprise, took hostages and attacked from behind. Also, pet hyenas. I wish DC could get away from the "to make it better, just make it punch harder" logic.
>>78793814 Judge for yourself, it was just a cameo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESV2Tt8KlXc
>>78776938 >she gets punched in the face by a guy twice her size 1. Who said it was a good punch? For all we know he punched using the force from his arm. 2. Getting stabbed in the eye might have stopped the moment of it. 3. I think she is somewhat meta now because Ivy changed her body a little bit.
>>78794723 Dude, the movie's Jacket on the back says "property of the Joker", the new one in the comic instead says "Owned" and there's the pic of a beaten up Joker in jail. As long as they're pandered to they ignore the problematic stuff
A similar example is Squirrel Girl's ass: the comic has jokes about the fact that it looks big and in the first issue there's even a guy staring at it, but it's ok because "it's just her tail in the pants XD patriarchy-crushing thighs! :-* "
SJWs and tumblrinas are kinda bipolar, when the new Final Fantasy's mechanic character was announced to be a woman they were like "yay, take that, sexist gamers!" and at the same time "why does she look like a slut? That's sexist"
>>78794922 >and at the same time "why does she look like a slut? That's sexist"
Which is hilarious considering how in the summer i see those short shorts being worn by every other female walking down the street. Some riding so high that you can see the bottom of their ass cheeks.( not that i'm complaining)
>>78795256 Agreed. I never did like Harley and I still don't like her. Maybe if we got her instead of Dr. Strange, she could have been the psychologist obsessed with Joker to the point of trying to become him.
>>78795256 I thought one of the plot points of Suicide Squad is a love triangle between her, Joker and Deadshot? If you ask me they should just drop the romance angle al-together in hero movies. Shit just wastes time that could be used for different shit.
>>78795452 bait patterns for Harley Quinn fans >mention her killing kids >mention her killing anyone >mention her wanting to sleep with Billy in Injustice >mention her sleeping her way up in BTAS >mention her not being feminist
>>78761849 >Someone who could be anything they wanted. The sex kitten, the seductress, the vixen, the slut, the whore, the prostitute, the cum dumpster, the sperm receptacle, the DNA library, the Kardashian, the dick pig, the nympho, the hoochie mama, the floozy, the tramp, the jezebel, the tramp, the trollop.
>>78762580 Anon, that's how abusive relationships work. The abuser whittles away at their victim's ego and self respect long before any physical attack, so that by that point the victim believes they deserve it. That goes for both male and female victims and abusers (it's not like the abuse statiscics for gay/lez couples are that much different).
>>78794922 >SJWs and tumblrinas are kinda bipolar, when the new Final Fantasy's mechanic character was announced to be a woman they were like "yay, take that, sexist gamers!" and at the same time "why does she look like a slut? That's sexist"
That's not exactly contradictory. I like Sid and she looks hot as fuck but she's not exactly dressed like a mechanic. None of the previous Cids dressed like Winry, so it's indeed possible to be jazzed about a female Cid but roll your eyes over how she's dressed. Should make for some damn good doujin, though.
>>78797195 Yeah, that's reasonable i know, what was interesting for me to notice is how quickly they wanted to claim the new character as something important for their cause instead of just going "uh, female Cid"
Like i already mentioned ITT, some people just really like to think that they're important and their demands are being rewarded
>>78798591 Same reason why they can't decide if Harley is really nuts for Joker or if the reality is more like OP's pic Same reason why they can't decide if Bruce is as crazy as the weirdos he's fighting or if his cause is righteus Same reason why they can't decide if Joker is mentally ill or just the biggest asshole around
With multifaceted characters like this it's easy for new writers to take the lead and make their headcanon psychoanalyses official, at least until the next guy decides to offer yet another one
>>78764349 I always felt like outside of her relationship with Joker and her ditzy personality there's not all that much keeping her from being "girl Joker". Take that away and all you have is her design, which is probably most of her appeal since you can dress her up in all kinds of costumes and shit.
She really is the product of a cartoonier universe. Pull her out of that and the abusive relationship just becomes sad, and without that she's just dime-a-dozen quirky girl. She needs a straight man to play off of like Ivy or, ironically enough, Joker.
>>78806760 It was Joker's whole "being reborn again" angle that Morrison likes. Joker was becoming something 'new' because of Batman 'shooting' him. In order to be something new he had to sever all his old ties. Harley included. He was going to spare her provided she let him disfigure her in the same way he was. She was going to let him too, out of love. In the end she decided he wasn't 'her' Joker anymore and shot him n the shoulder to prevent his escape.
>>78762580 My brain just died a little from reading this.
People say comic nerds aren't cringeworthy sexist douchebros, then I believe it for a while - until I find shit like this.
Do you seriously think that men never are in abusive relationships? What do you think relationship of Talia Al Ghul and Bruce Wayne is supposed to be, with him still loving her even after she raped him? What is Poison Ivy supposed to be metaphor for?
>>78763158 Fuck that, imma get blackout drunk, befriend some Africans and either get thrown out of the sleeziest strip club without even knowing i went to one, ride the train half a way across the country or wake up with most of my shit stolen near pusher street. And never remember how any of it happened.
Pretty much the only posts reading in this massive shitstorm.
Harley was designed as the counterbalance to Joker. They're both unstable, but they keep eachother in check.
Joker, being a villian, can always find other people to manipulate and exploit. Harley can and does work with Poison Ivy and the like.
But the original character of Harley Quinn was designed not to be able to stand on her own. So to have her playing her as a lone superhero without proper character development being displayed really does seem jarring, and more importantly than that, erodes the very basis of what makes the character what she is.
We admire people for their strengths, but we love them for their flaws.
Without them -- they don't even seem human. How can you relate to a perfect character?
>>78767545 Intoxication raises a female's testosterone levels to he same as a male's (like 4x the usual level), though since they don't live with it every day of their lives they're overwhelmed by feelings of aggression, lust and general proactiveness. Conversely, a man's T-levels drop slightly.
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