Why is this guy still in his job position?
This mentality is what got us the 90s. Straight up. We've seen what "artists are the real stars, writers are secondary, artists should get top billing and be the driving force behind the book. And hey, maybe fuck writers and just let the artists do the writing too?" gets us, and it's people like MacFarlane, Liefeld, and Lee running shit into the ground.
>not realizing that the writer and artist must work in harmony in order to craft a good product
what a fuck.
I'm on the fence about this because I think he is PARTIALLY right.
Writers are a tool - and I say this as a writer for comics. A lot of folks don't realize that writers don't necessarily drive projects. Even if you have your own idea, it can be worthwhile to hire a writer to help you realize it. Oftentimes, the artists are the ones who are better off making creative decisions about the plot and its direction, and the writers are there to make it elegant and not-shit.
He loses me at the "don't need writers so much" part, because artists can't fucking write. This doesn't mean they don't have good ideas, it just means they have no idea how to use words well.
Aha, just looked it up, that's where I've seen his name before. He was the editor for those MLP comics that have literally had misspelled words in the titles.
Hey Bob: great writing can cover for bad art, but great art can't overcome a bad story. Look to webcomics: Onepunch man is so well written it gets artists begging to redraw it, make internationally renowned Manga and the highest rated anime ever on IMDB. Drow Tales is well drawn but nobody gives two shits because the plot is garbage.
Even though it's not a western comic, One Punch Man is a great example. It got cult popularity with trashcan art but great writing, but when that famous guy started redrawing it things went mainstream and blew up.
I say this as nothing more than a reader:
If i see a book with great art but shitty writing, i won't buy it.
I will, though, buy a book with great writing and shitty art.
I rather read a great book than stare at a great painting.
>He was the editor for those MLP comics that have literally had misspelled words in the titles.
He still is. That's the sad thing. Look at the tweet linked in the op. They got the name of the writer for the newest comic wrong. Not only on the cover but on the inside credits too.
The problem with putting artists on a pedestal in comics is that, the last time the same scenario happened (the foundation of Image Comics almost 30 years ago), the industry bubble came along and creative-wise it was the Dark Age of the industry.
Don't get me wrong, there are hundreds of seminal cartoonists, but just because you can draw doesn't mean that you can tell a compelling story. 25 years ago you'd probably get away with making an art gallery pass as a comic, but today? Not so much, unless you're aiming for the T&A audience (which already has an overpacked supply.)
I'm not near One Punch levels of renown, but I had the same thing happen to me. If you make a well-written comic with shit art, artists will trip over themselves to help you.
I somehow doubt that would happen to this guy or the writers working under him. They're bottom-of-the-barrel fanfiction tier, and the franchises they make comics for have fanfiction communities so bustling that everyone is completely aware of this.
the artist is also a writer in comics.
without the art, all you have is dialogue. and how often do you read great dialogue in an average comic? if there's no expression and storytelling in the panels, then normal dialogue will just come off as flat and emotionless.
>Writer and Editor at IDW Comics.
Anyways, artists can more easily break the barrier to entry, but an employed writer is so far above them it's absurd.
>muh graphix novels
have a comic you'd like, OP
You want real cynicism?
"Artists" just end up being factory line workers. Even fucking Pixar wagelocked their employees and collaborated with Disney because they knew Artists aren't worth shit.
The epitome of art without writing is the Star Wars Prequels, or Legend of Korra.
Shiny, good to look at, but completely empty.
If you want to be a webcomic E-Celeb, yeah, you best learn to draw, but if you want to be GREAT you need to know how to write.
If you have a goal in making fiction, be useless. Be a manipulative son of a bitch. Do whatever you can to get YOUR idea out there. Once it gets even a modicrum of popularity tons of "artists" will beg you to let them work for you.
Comic scripts aren't always just dialogue. Some writers will describe every aspect of what's going on in each panel, and it's not uncommon for some of them to do sketch pages so they can show how they want the paneling and where the characters are in relation to one another.
>Writing and art are equally important in comics
Can you name a few series that sold on the art's merit alone?
I figure I'm being wilfully ignorant in not remembering any off the top of my head and could use an example or two to kick-start the process
Artists without writers, eh?
>writing himself into a corner and having to deus ex machina his way out
>plotholes big enough for a passenger jet
>nobody to tell you "No, that's stupid" when you have a stupid idea and don't realize it's stupid
>clumsy, unnatural-sounding dialogue
Yeah, artists don't need writers at all, it's totally fine.
>you mean, the 90's the most profitable time in comics history.
Yes, a bubble that burst and imploded from reckless investment.
>vs now, when writers are running the show, and you guys bitch about sjw destroying comics nonstop.
That was always going to happen as the old torchbearers aged out.
>Artists without writers, eh?
>He was the editor for those MLP comics that have literally had misspelled words in the titles.
>Look at the tweet linked in the op. They got the name of the writer for the newest comic wrong. Not only on the cover but on the inside credits too.
Those tweets are targeted more towards people trying to pitch ideas to execs, not for selling issues to an audience. You're not going to have much time explaining and being able to show off the writing, while art can be conveyed really quickly to them.
It wasn't that simple really. Murata, the artist, and ONE, the author, went through a lot of trouble and it was a time of desperation for them. Murata was a reader and fan of OPM. He approached ONE when he saw a tweet that ONE was quitting webcomics to get a job because his parents wanted him to stop drawing, and ONE was under constant pressure on whether he should or not.
Murata approached ONE trying to convince him to continue drawing and offered to be an artist to get it serialized as an actual manga. They talked and they decided to pitch it to Weekly Shounen Jump Magazine (where he has a contract with) but it was rejected.
Not wanting to give up, Murata broke off his contract with Weekly Shounen Jump (something that any sane mangaka would never do) and went to pitch it to different magazine. It eventually got accepted by Young Jump Magazine (ironically a subsidiary of Weekly Shounen Jump), and it was all smooth sailing from then on. Murata's is only required to finish 2 chapters a month, and ONE gets to continue Mob Psycho 100 while also OPM as a side project and an the editor for the Murata version.
They then became the untouchable duo of the Young Jump Magazine.
It's been a running joke that the whole Saitama and Genos banter is just a manga representation of ONE and Murata's relationship. Only that the strengths of their characters are reversed.
Every artist I've worked with who acted like they were the most important person on the project was replaced without issue. Every time.
If the artists want to tell the writers to fuck off and do what the artist wants, they can go make their own story. there's supposed to be give and take, but if an artist goes rogue and just does what they want it fucks a script up really quick, and then the writer is just spending time trying to salvage things.
Another writer here.
When I worked with artists, they were close friends and I let them very free to realize their vision, while I work on mine.
The final product is a compromise of both visions, a dialogue if you will. Works well for me, however my lastest project didn't sell as much as I wanted. I blame myself for it, I chose a very small niche. Still, it made it's money back.
Right, I work in so cal. I've heard the "But you need my style" thing before.
There are so many idle wannabe comic artists here I can barely walk to my bathroom without tripping on one. Most of them draw inspiration from the same styles.
Man, I had one artist introduce himself as the co-creator/writer of something I wrote entirely. I asked him to stop doing that because not only did he not help write or create a single thing in the story but I even provided character design sheets myself.
He didn't stop doing that, so I told him this wasn't working out. He accused me of stealing his ideas for the story.
Of course it is supposed to be a compromise, but what the above tweet describes isn't compromise, it's artists going rogue.
That doesn't work for anyone.
I work with friends sometimes and that works out well, aside from one who kept trying to draw every female character to look like his girlfriend...
Ahh yes I see
In which case: Great writer? Hire a decent artist to make the pitch work, then Great artist? Illustrate some spec scenes from your script, then re-work it with an editor / co-writer. Nobody does everything. Collaboration made the first three star wars movies. Solo work made the prequels.
If a writer comes into an already created project and do not actually make something new, they do not get credit as creator. That artist didn't even make character designs. He doesn't deserve credit for shit.
Maybe reread that. He was presenting himself as co-creator of the story and property as a whole, when he was brought in to it well after character designs and the story and visual guide were already established.
Sorry, but I'm not going to let you tell people you co-wrote something you just walked in to.
>vs now, when writers are running the show, and you guys bitch about sjw destroying comics nonstop.
Cape comics haven't changed though. It's just a new crowd of the same old that can't be arsed to read Batman battling official corruption and Superman punching wifebeaters.
I've just realized that some of my all-time favorites like DKR, The Maxx, Last Stand of the Wreckers, or Stray Toasters were written and illustrated by the same person and they show top quality in both aspects.
The current crop of comic book writers seem to me like they're mostly busy of tweeting their inane shit, getting into internet catfights, and working with absolutely subpar artists. So they can go and fuck themselves I guess.
Most comic writers with the big 2 are overworked and rushed. They also have very little control over who they work with and are forced to work around constant rebooting and mega events on top of editorial micromanaging.
I'm not surprised they produce sub par work because their conditions are not conducive to anything else.
Most of them don't get involved in shit, but the ones that do are absolute drama queens.
As far as I see it; if a artist wants to create a comic, learn to write.
If a writer wants to create a comic, learn to draw.
Anyone who says one is more important than the other is autistic
For you Non Horsefuckers - This guy's claim to fame is the MLP comic book
Seriously, that's his big accomplishment
No shit he doesn't care about writing
Actualy Bobby's been editor at IDW for far longer at far better properties like TMNT.
It's just that, like any sane person, he doesn't give a shit about MLP and the retarded brony meme.
>H-he's not just a MLP guy!
>He's also in charge of a crappy TMNT spinoff
Top fucking kek. Not even /lit/, but is this really a guy who should be expressing opinions or talking down to anyone?
But it's not an opinion, he is completely right about pitches. More often than not you get people going "and who is this partner of yours" because they simply don't give a shit and most of the time prefer to work with whom they already know than a newbie, much less two new faces at the same time.
Plus, you know, the fact that MLP is shit and the fans are tasteless pigs that eat anything so why waste the effort?
In the golden age of the early 70s, Hollywood funded niche arty shit and dramas. Each studio produced many films in a year. But with the success of Jaws and Star Wars, they realized they could just put all of their eggs in one basket and make one or two big, shallow, broad-appeal films per year and break even, with art films and dramas getting the remaining scraps of the yearly budget.
Tl:Dr: Blockbusters are films that use up a lot of a studio's annual budget and are manufactured to appeal to as broad an audience as possible.
Close: Starting with a broad outline, artists drew the pages, *then* writers filled in dialogue, which they tried to match to the art.
Oddly, it gave everyone a lot of leeway. Most famous example I can think of was in the 60's, Spider-Man was in college, swinging over a protest. The Artist drew Spidey *intending* for him to condemn the protestors as he swung past. The writer, however, filled his text bubble with Spidey's approval of the protests. The editor thought Spidey's approval fit more in line with his attitudes and youth, so it stayed that way, and people liked it.
this is 100% correct
the 90s were killed by overusing gimmick covers and sucking collectors dry. trying to convince people special bagged copies of DoS are going to be worth millions one day when it has one of the largest print runs in history, e.t.c.
there is better harmony between the art and writing when both are done by the same person
literally all the comic masterpieces in the last 5 years have been written by the artist
But it is a great counterargument, if you dont't care what a comic book looks like then why read that's a combination of visuals and prose(if you can call comic book writing that) if you don't care about 50% of it?
What's the point? I get it for the cape fans, they gotta find what happens to Batman,etc but anyone else?
>We all know what happens when you put artist in charge of writing...
>Look to webcomics: Onepunch man is so well written it gets artists begging to redraw it, make internationally renowned Manga and the highest rated anime ever on IMDB
>highest rated anime ever on IMDB
and that matters why?
>it still takes a writer to come up with the concepts that are being told visually
>Hip-Hop Family Tree
Ed Piskor is a fucking workhorse. Can't believe he's been able to produce an album a year for 4 years with he amount of work he puts in, in addition to drawing covers and traveling the world for conventions and sometimes teaching at art schools
The inherent problem with this is that we don't have more cartoonist in our industry, so that leads to infighting like:
>THE WRITER IS THE BEST
>NO THE ARTIST IS THE BEST
>WHAT ABOUT THE EDITOR GUYS?
This leads to most people giving the writer most of the credit even though they don't what goes on behind the scenes.
>the 90s were killed by overusing gimmick covers and sucking collectors dry. trying to convince people special bagged copies of DoS are going to be worth millions one day when it has one of the largest print runs in history, e.t.c.
Gee why does this sound familiar
With good reason.
Look, you don't like the series, that's ok. But if it's your JOB to be the editor of the series, then blunders like this should not happen.
I dont see any issues with that problem solving approach.
It's true though, prove him wrong.It's take far more time and decidacation to become a competent artist than it does it become decent comic writer.
Composition,Anatomy,Proportion,Space,Construction,etc takes years to get truly get down.
All a writer has to do is:
Batman walks into the dimly lit master bedroom. The room looks ransacked. He senses something amiss in the corner of the room and he hears laughing.
WOW SO HARD.
at least give credit where it's due dude.
It's true though, prove him wrong. It takes far more time and dedication (sorry but how the FUCK did you misspell this) to become a competent writer than it does to become a decent comic artist. Pacing, Prose, Dialogue, Planning, Character creation, etc takes years to get truly down.
All a writer has to do is
>pick up pencil
>draw some lines
>hand it to the colorist
WOW SO HARD.
At least give credit where it's due dude
>he don't give a shit
return to >>>/mlp/
Bobby have better comic to care about ponies and that shitty pony comic don't deserve all those sales.
it's a codependent relationship
one needs the other to thrive
it should be like dating really, an artist should find a writer that fully compliments their ability and vice versa and they should live happly ever after
stop trying to destroy HAPPY HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS you HOMEWRECKERS
You need skill to be semi-competent as an artist. You can't give a 4-year-old crayons and get a good comic.
Writers, on the other hand, sometimes look like they're channeling their inner 4-year-old.
I might be a huge art fag but the bottom line is this: a comic can still be entertaining with good writing but bad art, the inverse usually isn't. There are plenty of cape comics where the art is pretty decent but the writing is absolutely atrocious (something like Bendis for instance). There are plenty of comics out there with art styles I absolutely abhor but I read them anyway because the writing keeps me engaged. If a comic has both being good? Even better.
If artists are so important, then why can there be a successful comic run written by 1 person and illustrated by 2-3 artists?
Because they're replaceable. Just try to prove me wrong, artfags.
Writing is absolutely less important than art in the world of comics. Especially cape comics, where the writers aren't even allowed to do anything and basically are just there to write dialogue for plots dredged from the retarded fanboy minds of the editors.
books and comics are two completely different mediums. It's kind of like seeing a strong man at a competition and thinking he's also a distance runner.
both are very physically demanding activities, but for completely different reasons.
bot have their own challenges.
writing is more than just clickity clacking on a keyboard.
>Man, I had one artist introduce himself as the co-creator/writer of something I wrote entirely. I asked him to stop doing that because not only did he not help write or create a single thing in the story but I even provided character design sheets myself.
>He didn't stop doing that, so I told him this wasn't working out. He accused me of stealing his ideas for the story.
Are you Robert Kirkman?
Well, aren't you a little ray of sunshine.
As some who was told all the way through primary school and college so far that I am a "great writer", I agree with this sentiment 100%. Writing is easy as fuck.
Art, on the other hand, takes a shitfuck ton of skill and patience.
Essays ain't shit compared to novels, son.
"Great writer in college" topkek you think that means something? Girls who draw noodley anime characters are also told they're "great artists", it's just Highschool keks.
Anyways nothing makes me happier than seeing an illustrator spend years of his life drawing porn or sculpting a volcano for George Lucas to use in the Revenge of the Sith.
High "art" right there, you cuck
>Anyways nothing makes me happier than seeing an illustrator spend years of his life drawing porn
Do you think you're above that? I'd like to see what you think is high art. Probably some stupid Russian shit.
I do agree with you about Hollywood though. Wasting decades of hard-earned skill on making poverty wages for a billionaire is admittedly hilarious and sad.
Try getting your "OMG AWESOME IDEAS!!!" picked by a producer with amateur art.
Idea guys are a dime a dozen. Idea guys with a dictionary and an actual understanding of grammar may be worth a whole buck but competent artists are still more valuable.
And then you reach superstar level and the writer gets even more undermined by corporate mandates, ghost writing and localization.
This work is the editor of IDW. They're not trying to pull out the next Road to Perdition. They're seeking workhorses to adapt cartoon episodes and movies into comic form.
Legitimately you can blame David Brothers. He's been on a whole "artists are more important than writers" thing for years. He honestly believes that artists have no respect or clout in the comics industry compared to writers.
To get a job in the industry you don't need either but it's probably easier for an artist. I mean there's some doofus writing fanfiction that will never even be able to sniff writing a Prowler book but Erica Henderson manages to have jobs drawing multiple books.
Bobby is the editor of the TMNT book. He collaborates so much on the book creatively he's actually credited as a co-writer and he answers fan questions on the Technodrome Forums all the time.
He doesn't strike me at all as a lazy or disengaged editor.
He's not wrong. There's this mindset, especially in the Big Two, that writers are the most important and artists are just replaceable cogs in the machine of making comics. In reality, it's the art that brings people in and makes people pay attention to the art, while quality writing takes longer to appreciate. Good art gets your foot in the door.
Look, being able to draw something is EASIER than having to explain it, but being able to draw something competently and to where it looks good is HARDER than giving a detailed description.
But yeah, it's always good to have a handle on both.
people tend to think being a writer is easier than being an artist because:
1.) Everyone has to learn how to write (as in, the mechanical process of communicating using written words) at some point. As a result, art is usually more mystifying to the average person than writing is.
2.) The way we're evaluated on our writing and the way we're evaluated on our art at the early stage of development are not equivalent. You're "good at writing" in high school if you are able to consistently produce syntactically and grammatically correct sentences. This can be achieved by memorizing a set of rules and is not really a "craft" in the same way art almost always is. On the other hand, being a "good artist" in high school is usually an evaluation of how well your art resembles reality. At higher levels there's a lot more to it than that, but if your average Joe is asked to evaluate how "good" some piece of art is, that's the metric they'll likely take.
A more appropriate equivalent kind of evaluation would be a measure of either:
a.) the ability to communicate effectively, OR
b.) the ability to be rhetorically persuasive, OR
c.) the ability to produce beautiful, compelling language, OR
d.) the ability to tell a story.
These are distinct skillsets. They all fall under the heading of "being a good writer" and you often find a lot of overlap in there, but being good at one is no more a guarantee that you'll be good at the others than being good at watercolors means you're good at sculpture.
At this point I'm just rambling because I'm wicked tired but have you ever heard some random person talk about the novel they've always wanted to publish even though they haven't written a word of fiction since they were in middle school. They're never any good. Inevitably you find that talented writers got that way the same way talented artists do: lots and lots of practice. Sure, natural talent plays a role, but that's true of any skill, and it's hardly the most important thing.
I think all these disparities between artist and writer in the industry come from it being easier to tell if art is bad. All you have to do is look at it, really. Writing, can still be obviously bad, but you have to actually take a second to read it.
Subsequently, there's a much lower barrier of entry for art because it's a thing less people can do competently. Anyone can figure out decent story and sentence structure, but decent art takes years of practice. This means that there's always way more writers trying to break into the industry than artists.
And I say this as a writer. I personally think the writer and the artist (and the inker, colorist, letterer, etc.) are all equally important. If one suffers, they all suffer.
>Not wanting to give up, Murata broke off his contract with Weekly Shounen Jump (something that any sane mangaka would never do) and went to pitch it to different magazine. It eventually got accepted by Young Jump Magazine (ironically a subsidiary of Weekly Shounen Jump), and it was all smooth sailing from then on. Murata's is only required to finish 2 chapters a month, and ONE gets to continue Mob Psycho 100 while also OPM as a side project and an the editor for the Murata version.
It is worth noting that Murata must have made bank off of Eyeshield so he was in a comfortable position that a lot of mangaka could never be in.
You can't really treat a pretty drawing and a pretty description the same way though. A comic can be great in terms of art if each panel stands on its own as a good-looking image. But even if each sentence is pretty, that's not enough to make a well-written story; all those sentences need to tie together in a way that's interesting & satisfying and doesn't have too much or too little. And that takes a lot of revision and rethinking and so on.
Real and Vagabond are published by entirely different companies, actually.
But just from a business perspective, here's how it usually works:
A mangaka has two series that they're able to put out at a rate of one chapter per month. While they have a deal with such-and-such publisher, it's better in terms of profit margins to split them between different magazines. That way, fans of said mangaka will have to buy two different publications every month instead of just one, while cramming them both in the same magazine won't boost that individual publication's sales any.
This isn't true. People believe it is because everyone can "write", but actually writing creatively and doing it well is something completely different to high school essay writing or facebook posts or whatever.
Anyone can write. Not everyone can write a fantastic script, almost certainly not someone who'said dedicated themselves to another artform.
Writers play a crucial role. The only reasons editors would say the artists can do it alone is A) only one paycheck to send out and B) content doesn't really effect sales that much, that's why guys like Brett Booth still have jobs -- they can meet deadlines. That's it.
Only plebs think art is more important than writing or that artists are more important than writers, all the greatest comics ever have good writers and bad to mediocre artists like Sandman,Watchmen,Y The Last Man, Animal Man, The Dark Knight Returns etc. Comics without writing are just drawings, and generally not good ones either.
Watchmen uses generic art as fuck, what the hell world do you live in where it's anything but that? Also DKR is just really ugly and almost incomprehensible thanks to all the tiny ass panels
Alright everyone, hold the fuck up. When this Curnow guy was asked if writers and artists shouldn't just be treated equally, he had this to say: "On a collaborative project, of course. I was talking about a pitch. If an artist is the one pitching, it's their project."
>mfw this whole thread has been based on a shallow misunderstanding
most comicbook writers are comicbook writers because they're too bad to become actual novelists
a lot comicbook artists move on with their career and work successfully in advertising/games/movies
Bullshit. Al Ewing, Neil Gaiman, Warren Ellis, Alan Moore, Bill Willingham, Chris Claremont, and Peter David have all made the jump to prose.
Greg Rucka, Paul Cornell, Chris Roberson and Charlie Huston started in prose and moved to comics.
Many of the above currently work in both fields.
Only if you read them for the art.
Lots of great small press and webcomic stuff has shit art but works on being fucking hilarious. In a lot of cases its just because the writer wants total ownership of the strip.
We're not talking about prose writing dumbass, we're talking about comic writing, they're two different things.
In six hours a decent writer could write anywhere from 50% to 100% of a script for a standard 22-page comic, depending on how fast they work.
In six hours a decent artist could draw 50% to 100% of one page. And that's just the pencils, not even including inking and coloring.