Speaking srsly, that's what I thought as well but other than that I cant recall any other moment when his wisdom was helpful. He was just always really cautious but for a charachter whose brilliancy is so bloated up, it seems he did most harm than good
>>78755114 I like that in fiction author can just decide that someone is wise even though he actually isnt. Its just simple and it works. You actually need to be wise to make character that is wise, or then you can just say that he is wise and its much easier.
>>78756693 I have less a problem with that than I do with Anakin being of cosmic significance. In fact, the prequels made everyone way more important than they were in the originals, come to think of it.
>>78755114 >>78755174 >>78755308 >>78755335 Yoda was not particularly wise during the events of the prequels. His judgement was constantly clouded and he was overly cautious at times while wildly unconcerned with extremely important events at others (You found a clone army on Genosha that was seemingly ordered by a missing Jedi and that Palpatine seems to know about and plans to use? Whatever, nigga, let's focus on Padme's assassination)
He becomes wise as a result of the training he receives from Qui-Gon's ghost. The tests he takes before the training reveal (and defeat) his hubris and longing
>>78755114 Everyone in the prequels was retarded and just because Sheev won doesn't mean he's excluded.
Yoda >I'm going to completely ignore my reservations about teaching Anakin and will continue to do so even when he's clearly full of rage and conflict later in the series. I will also not follow up on the discovery of the surprise clone army in the slightest
Obi >I will constantly let Anakin go off on his own when he needs my guidance most. I will also ignore his seething rage as the council deals him sleight after sleight and pretty much be the most inattentive master ever
Sheev >despite being in control of the CIS and knowing full well that the republic has no standing army and the Jedi will sacrifice themselves by the hundreds in obvious traps to save a senator and two of their own, i will put in place a clone army to oppose myself instead of just using my inexhaustible army of robots to steamroll the republic and destroy the Jedi in a month or so.
>>78757774 >>despite being in control of the CIS and knowing full well that the republic has no standing army and the Jedi will sacrifice themselves by the hundreds in obvious traps to save a senator and two of their own, i will put in place a clone army to oppose myself instead of just using my inexhaustible army of robots to steamroll the republic and destroy the Jedi in a month or so.
The whole point was to have an army that only he could control, one that knew the Jedi really well and the Jedi trusted. What would happen if the CIS killed the Jedi by sheer force of mass and then decided they owned the galaxy?
>>78759048 But it seems like the CIS are evil scumbags only interested in money. Controlling and manipulating the Senate leaves them able to finance the rebellion out of discontent while the CIS would have been perfectly fine with Sheev in control as long as they get to stay in business without competition, at least according to the little characterization they got.
It just seems like his plan would have gone a lot smoother without the clone army and betraying Dooku and the CIS
>>78758619 Sheev's plan still was convoluted. I mean, hey, I respect the cleverness of starting an entire war between two false armies, just to plant unwitting assassins at the backs of your enemies. Being able to shut off one army when convenient, and use the next to step on everyone's necks isn't a bad plan.
Personally, growing up I always thought the clone wars was a *bad* thing. Like, a war notable enough to have some kind of fancy title and make Luke Skywalker mention it must have been pretty severe; So I I figured that the Clones must have been the bad guys, because why would you need clones if you had an army of likeminded people willing to fight for you? Some kind of bad guy or faction was invading the Republic with an inexhaustible army of clone killing machines, and that forced the Galactic Republic to begin sinking into despotism, which is how the Emperor took control; He used a fake army to hammer society into the shape he desired. After hundreds of millions to billions of lives lost, people were more than willing to become Storm Troopers, or join the Imperial Navy, and embrace Imperial ideology if it meant Victory, and the safety of their loved ones.
The point of the Clone Wars was kinda twofold. It wasn't just "eradicate the Jedi", but by going about it in this convoluted-ass manner, he basically made the Jedi look like the bad guys in the eyes of the galaxy. If he'd gone for straight-up extermination then a lot of them would've probably been able to escape, hide, and wait things out with the aid of people who believed in them.
By making the Jedi look like power-hungry assassins, he not only gets carte blanche to wipe them out, but removes most of the goodwill they had in the galaxy.
>>78757774 Yoda's bothers me the most. Sure, had Qui-Gon kept silent about Anakin nothing would've happened; but once he was discovered, why the fuck not assign him to a master that could actually handle him? Telling Anakin to fuck off back to space Turkey was not an option since Sheev could've gotten suspicious about it and he was close enough to Padme to get enough info to become interested in him. Obi wan might be the coolest Jedi known, but he was just being named knight when he took Anakin as an apprentice. The newest ordered knight took the most dangerous apprentice the Jedi order ever took, and Yoda allowed it. Fucking retarded space gnomes, I swear.
>>78758587 I believe Lucas did made a point about it on that interview when he called Disney, post-Walt Disney Disney.
>>78759398 this is the same franchise where a 9 year old can perfectly pilot a spaceship on his first try, and a teenager who's never been in a fight can nearly hold his own against a master after an old man tells him to waggle a stick around for a while. Mary Sue went out the door about 40 years ago
>>78760825 He didn't Go watch it. I wish he did really. It has irked me my entire life that Yoda is this super old force master and he has SUCH a hard time doing was palpatine does in that fight in half a second. Or in episode 2 fighting Dooku. Its like they wanted to make him a liar when he said the dark side wasn't stronger. I am not the person who would believe that in universe, but we get plain proof. Yoda literally struggles to pick objects up and it requires several seconds of concentration.
>>78763622 They weren't useless, they cut their way to the center of republic territory to make the opening of episode 3 possible. No one is saying that the Jedi couldn't take tons of droid with them but they die by the hundreds at Geonosis, so their usefulness is probably greatly diminished in open warfare as opposed to small engagements or subterfuge, neither of which you can win a war with.
>>78759368 >Sheev clouded the judgement and foresight of the entire council. >Sheev >not Jar Jar Isn't is odd how they're from the same planet and happen to appear together so often, even before Jar Jar became a senator?
>>78763436 Literally just rewatched it. The only reason Yoda lost was the environment. He got knocked back and so did palpatine.
Palpatine was going full tryhard with his lightning and Yoda absorbed all of it and blew it back. Palpatine was surprised and scared by this, you can clearly see in his face. Yoda also stops his thrown things mid flight and launches it back faster.
The fight was a stalemate and Yoda would have certainly won if the environment wasn't involved.
>>78765052 To add to this, Yoda is confirmed the best Jedi duelist in the order. Even better than Mace Windu. Windu defeated Palpatine not only because he is a truly talented duelist but because Vaapad uses the users darker emotions and is actually stronger against an opponent who is channeling their rage, so against a sith lord its even better. Sidious was probably on almost equal terms with Yoda in lightsaber skill and maybe even better than Windu if Windu's style was the perfect counter to Palpies.
But I dont know how you watch that scene and think Yoda got stomped.
>>78763436 The problem, as usual, was poetry, they tried to give to Yoda the same feel he had in the OT
In Empire he closes his eyes, raises his hand and slooowly makes Luke's ship levitate? Oh well, it must mean that's his usual modus operandi, he ALWAYS has to concentrate for a couple of minutes before he can pull off any little trick
>>78768123 >The scene was literally "use the Force, Luke!" and then bam, perfect shot Where this fails though, is that making a difficult shot is much easier to believe than becoming proficient with a weapon you've never used.
>>78763227 >3 greater than 4 For the fight scenes or the so-bad-it's-good?
I know there was nothing technically implied like this in the OT but did anyone ever get the sense that the force was a lot more..well, powerful and large than it ended up being? I always thought we were seeing maybe a fraction of its full potential.
>>78769929 How? They both had basic experiences in each field. Luke used to shoot space rats or whatever with his friends, Rey used to defend herself decently enough back home with the staff In both cases the Force isn't much more than a power-up
Honestly everyone at the council was just the worst. I was hyped as fuck when the one of the last seasons arcs was going to be about a force group that were neither Jedi or Sith until it turned out to be a fucking Jar Jar episode. >Jedi kidnaps children with force powers, force them into their cult and kids can't ever see their families again >"W-Why do you hate us?"
>>78770163 >>78770256 Because of how much the force contributed. Luke's opponent was a stationary target already established to be possible to hit. Slight guidance for a fraction of a second, or even luck, would be enough.
Rey's opponent was someone trained in Jedi/Sith ways. It strains credibility that an impoverished desert girl could beat someone trained for duels, just because "the force".
Is there any other way? We're talking about psychic powers gifted from God. It pretty much IS magic.
Seriously, faith and will are huge parts of actively using The Force. Belief, knowledge, in both it and yourself is the key. It's why Luke can go from bull's-eyeing whomprats to destroying the Death Star with a seemingly impossible shot and why Rey can from beating up goons to battering a wounded Kylo. You do the thing because you know that you can do the thing.
That's just how it works. If that's a problem with TFA then it's a problem with the entire franchise.
>>78770379 >Jedi children ultimately become space cops, peace keepers and ambassadors Giving your child for the salvation of the Galaxy is a fair trade. Also, drop the kidnapping" bullshit. The kids are given willingly.
>>78770673 >Rey's opponent was someone trained in Jedi/Sith ways. Ren was trained as a Jedi and a Sith and the movie is very clear that the indecisive nature both ways give him fucks him up. He was injured, and he's a conflicted teenager who's trying to look cool. Beating him isn't as huge an accomplishment as you make it sound. Rey didn't exactly beat Vader.
>>78770983 Oh no, Rey is a total Sue. She can do everything Han and Luke can with none of the training. She's beloved by all the characters, and she basically has the potential to be the NEW strongest Jedi ever.
Just because a term is abused doesn't mean it's no applicable.
>>78771221 People don't seem to want to admit how easy the force actually is to use. Like Yoda's whole fucking point in the lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp scene was basically "training is actually bullshit, you could do the same shit I can right this second if you believed it."
It's pretty much exactly like a Green Lantern ring. Luke learned slower than Rey because being a doubting pussy was his character and she's more willful from orphan survival skills and shit.
They pretty clearly established she learned mechanical and piloting shit in the course of working for the fat junk trader guy. They just did it in pieces over the course of natural dialogue instead of as stiff, straightforward exposition, so no wonder a retard like you missed it.
>>78769929 >For the fight scenes or the so-bad-it's-good? Not a big fan of 4. I used to love it obviously, but it doesn't really hold up. Go back and watch it, there's way too much in that movie that doesn't make any fucking sense.
>>78771332 >She can do everything Han and Luke can with none of the training No
She knew how to work around the Falcon because that's what she did in the past years. Her boss made her. It's still a training, even if you didn't see it, and it's pretty much comparable to Luke's "i'm a good pilot because i was fucking around in the desert" excuse for piloting an x-wing
>and she basically has the potential to be the NEW strongest Jedi ever What the hell does that even mean, she's the damn protagonist of the most recent trilogy, do you expect the movie to let her role slide away because Luke was the first main guy? Is this Dragon Ball Z, do you need someone to read their power levels so you can tell who do you have to root for?
>>78771332 every jedi can easily become better than everyone at everything and become the strongest jedi ever, because anyone can get a better connection with the force just by learning to be more aware of it and then letting it do all the heavy lifting.
'use the force' means 'realize there's a QTE prompt on-screen and then push it' you don't have to manually exert any effort.
>>78771464 And she had Luke as an inspiration, while Luke had nothing to believe in beside himself. Using the Force is as easy as getting zen with yourself, it's not until the Prequels that we get this Hogwarts schooling bit.
>>78771740 >Her boss made her. She was aware of the changes but she never said she made them herself.
>it's pretty much comparable to Luke's "i'm a good pilot because i was fucking around in the desert" Fucking wrong. It makes perfect sense to the character of Luke to be a decent pilot, because he wants to join the academy and leave his home planet. Its both practical in that sense and symbolic of the character's dreams of flying away from his boring life. Rey has no personal reason to be a good pilot. Maybe her boss made her test drive the Falcon, as stupid as that would be, but there's no reason she should have been able to out fly professional pilots given the fact that all she wanted to do was to stay on Jakku.
>>78772240 >She was aware of the changes but she never said she made them herself. I didn't say she did and that's a detail, what you need to know is that she witnessed how the Falcon was changed (Han didn't so of course he needed her help for that) and she knew about how to work around that shit in general
>Rey has no personal reason to be a good pilot. Maybe her boss made her test drive the Falcon, as stupid as that would be, but there's no reason she should have been able to out fly professional pilots given the fact that all she wanted to do was to stay on Jakku. Moving the goalpost, we never mentioned her being a good pilot, and the movie doesn't even try tell you she was a particularly good pilot either, she managed to escape the TIEs because she knew the desert and the remainings of the ships so she managed to plan an improvised escape route. Her piloting abilities is never brought up again after that action scene
>>78771698 They didn't establish shit. >mechanical and piloting shit You know, I'm no star pilot but I'm going to say there is a world of difference between driving a speeder and singlehandidly flying/fixing the Millennium Falcon. >so no wonder a retard like you missed it No need to get so defensive, Daddy Disney's still getting his money's worth.
>>78770016 >Away put your weapon, I mean you no harm. >Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? >Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. >Mind what you have learned, save you it can. >When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not.
>>78772627 >there is a world of difference between driving a speeder and singlehandidly flying/fixing the Millennium Falcon.
>It's an iconic spaceship so it's hard to pilot The Falcon is a piece of junk. Every character says it, Han is particularly good with it, that's what made it special. Don't forget even in this movie he had to save the others' asses with a risky manouver And you speak of Rey fixing it like it was a big accomplishment. She knew how it was modified, Han didn't, she turned off the thing that modified it, the end
This thread is filled with assumptions out the ass.
>>78770379 >le Jedi kidnap children meme How the fuck did this even get started?
>>78758559 True understanding of what? Sheev blocked their foresight and his plans were locked down tight. They'd have to be psychic to see it coming, which they no longer were.
>>78757066 Nowhere does Sheev say or imply to the Jedi that he knew about the army beforehand. He acts surprised by the revelation and war breaks out so they are forced to use them right away. In fact, it is Yoda who mobilizes the army to begin with.
>>78757774 The Jedi do follow up with the army conspiracy once they find some leads. They usually lead to dead ends. See TCW S6. They didn't show it in the movies because they were crowded enough as it is and it wasn't vital to the narrative. You're also exaggerating with Obi-Wan.
As for Sheev's plan, there are several reasons that add up and explain why he chose the plan he did. One reason was the CIS had a ruling body similar to the Senate that was mostly composed of good people like the Senate with members who wanted peace as much as Padme, but were unknowingly being used by an oligarchy (the separatist council and Dooku) but in order for them to go along with the war, the Republic had to be presented to them as a threat. Thus Sheev needed a Republic army to scare them into a fight.
>>78772435 In the OT? Never. The Force always manifests in either something Luke was already good at and had experience doing, piloting and hitting small targets, or in a skill he learned after he had some training and had some time to focus, like force pulling the lightsaber out of the snow. Timing seems to be on his side, but the maneuvers Rey pulls are far and away from luck.
>>78772489 Its about character motivation being the basis for their skills and actions, but if you can't grasp that, then I don't know what to say to you.
>>78772568 She managed to escape the TIEs because she could make hairpin turns through complex architecture with a giant freighter meant for two pilots. We've only ever seen one other pilot do that and we know they're seasoned and experienced at the very least, and he has a co-pilot when he does so.
But it honestly doesn't matter, because being a Mary Sue isn't about strengths, its about weaknesses and the only one Rey shows, the initial unwillingness to accept her destiny, is built into the heroes journey as a standard feature. Every character from Luke Skywalker to Moses to fucking Shrek would rather not accept what the plot demands of them until they're forced to, initially.
If they had let Han and Finn save her from the chair, her character would have been fine, instead literally every problem presented to Rey she fixes herself with no help from her supporting cast besides being gifted the most iconic objects in Star Wars imagery and getting rides from one completely solvable problem to the next.
Luke had to clear his mind, concentrate, basically get into a meditative state and than take the shot.
It wasn't a simple power up as it was going into another state of consciousness to let the Force guide your aim.
Also, unlike Rey Luke was also being trained by Ben for a good part of the movie. He had prior training on how to see things only using the force for example. Remember? Learning how to use the lightsaber blindfolded?
So, in short Luke had
1) The time to go into a meditative state and actually touch the force.
2) Training on how to go into such a state, how to feel the force and how to be guided by it.
Also, you can't use the Force to learn how to be proficient with lightsabers. It's why Jedi spend all that time learning different lightsaber styles.
The force can however guide your strikes, predict where the opponent will hit. It's not quite proficiency but it is a bonus.
On last note, remember that lightsabers are a somewhat unique weapon. They have a gyroscopic effect and very little mass. It means that without force sensitivity you're likely to accidentally hurt yourself.
Which means that I raised an eyebrow at Finn using it.
>>78773496 Finn was doing something we saw him learn to do in a few scenes ago. We didn't even know Rey was a pilot until the plot needed her to be. It felt shoehorned in like they wrote up until that point, realized the problem, and just gave her a skill that never shows up again in the movie because they didn't want to start over.
In all the scenes we're with Rey before she climbs aboard the Falcon, they never even imply she can fly. A throwaway line or two would have fixed this, in fact, a few throwaway lines and an addition or two to the opening crawl would fix almost all of this movies problems, other than the reuse of the Death Star concept, but as it stands, its just a good movie with glaring flaws in its main character's arc.
>>78763274 this has always bothered me. The dark side exists, its a part of the force. And yet all the talk about balance isnt evening things out between light and dark, its the complete eradication of one side.
>>78773926 The exposition is implied rather than stated and it came after the skill was demonstrated instead of before, and that makes you uncomfortable because something you weren't prepared for happened. I feel like that's your problem, not the film's.
>>78774371 >>We need a pilot! >until the plot needed her to be. Right.
>>78774020 No, it's a fair complaint. I see his point about jerking around the viewer's expectations when the main character is just what they happen to need at that time. You begin to think they're in trouble, but then everything's a-ok just because the main character is awesome and talented. Once is excusable, but it happened more than once in the movie.
>>78772240 >anon nails how disconnected shit is >suddenly >>78772435 >force can teach you to pilot >>78772489 >someone who works for food stamps and gets less than a full 'portion' a day half the time is somehow able to get good flight experience. Rey apologists are complete idiots. The film was good but Rey was a Sue and the writing made Kylo a bit underwhelming by the end of the film. That's all there is too it.
>>78775170 They're getting it straight from Lucas dipshit. He said the Darkside is a cancer and does not exist when the Force is in balance. Note how the Jedi never refer to it as The Lightside of the Force. It is simply The Force.
>>78774905 >Anon is right, what we needed was another entire movie showing how Rey isn't a clueless idiot when it comes to spaceships, how else can i accept that she can pilot one? The same way they established piloting with Luke. A throwaway line or two establishing The skill and a reason for The skill to be there in the first place. They sufficiently establish her ability to climb around mechanical architecture and ability to fight, why did piloting fall by the wayside?
>>78774270 >literally manages to destroy a enemy vehicle with a gun that can only fire in one tiny as line >B-but all she had to do was go upside down. That's easy >Gunner seats exist because hitting people with projectiles is hard and it needs specific input to get the desired accuracy >she uses the entire ship to aim a gun >doesn't know it's exact effective path >while in complete free fall with no engine or subsequent controls >killing a profesional pilot >after puling a hair pin turn out of a corridor that was almost as wide as her ship >not skilled >not unbelievably skilled You can say dodging the debris in the ship could be assisted by the force and same with the aiming of the gun I suppose but the rest has to be learned skill. She's an ace pilot for no fucking reason. Maybe not a Poe but she'd get instantly recruited to a resistance role if she applied. >lives on food stamps in a broken vehicle of a long gone war >somehow has tracked all this flight experience Indefensible.
>>78773049 About the kidnap shit, if I recall correctly, the Jedi look for children that show signs of being Force sensative and talk to their parents about taking them to the Temple and training them how to use their powers rather than squandering it. If the parents agree, they're taken to Corusant to train. Then again, this was all expanded universe and was dumped the moment it was said to be non-canon.
>>78775728 Yes, the opening arc of S2 of TCW directly shows the Jedi ask permission and the parents usually agree since being a Jedi either offers them a better life (it seems The Force is partial to the poor) or ups the family's social status, as was the case with Dooku's aristocratic family.
>>78775239 No, they're poorly written and directed. You've got talented actors like Ewan McGregor, Samuel L. Jackson and Christopher Lee but the former two just phone it in and Lee never gets the opportunity to reach Saruman like heights
OT Yoda >jovial yet has the capacity to be serious >doesn't do the inverted syntax thing all the time PT Yoda >serious buisness mode all the time >use that inverted syntax thing all the time, he does This one especially pisses me off because it's one of the few things about the prequels that TCW didn't fix or mitigate. In fact, it probably strengthened it. Why would he become less serious after all his friends and associates died? Maybe Dagobah is driving him a little crazy.
>>78776833 Maybe he was serious because he was in the middle of a war? Or at work? Friends dying and dealing with a conspiracy to kill your entire way of life tends to stress people out. He also has fun moments when not at work, like teaching the younglings, and messing with droids in TCW E1. And Yoda stopped being jovial the second he began training Luke. The crazy old man routine was a bit meant to test Luke's patience.
I swear people will think of the most retarded shit to nitpick the prequels.
>>78772960 >Amazing pilot >Created specifically to be waifu >Human Angel hybrid >Can never truly die >Literally a god >Outplays all the other characters including both sets of villains >Is naked constantly yet this bothers no one, not even in the film where she's being exhibitionist for literally the entire world to see >MC fucks up the entire world in later films just to get her back despite knowing her for maybe a few weeks at that point >Gets put on every piece of merchandise despite being worst girl
I don't know, you tell me how she's not a Mary Sue?
>>78777462 >Is naked constantly yet this bothers no one, not even in the film where she's being exhibitionist for literally the entire world to see Yeah, that's something. But why doe no one EVER acknowledge that she has blue hair and red eyes?
>>78775283 The little moment where she puts on the pilot helmet after dinner was adequate for that in my book. It shows that "flying/piloting" is somehow tied to her character, and I don't think it's too much of a stretch to go from that to "Maybe she can pilot."
In the OT, he was wise in the ways of the force. He wielded it with great skill. He understood that having super powers meant you had a specific duty not to give in to your desire for glory, strength of arms, and power were not the wisest way to use your newly acquired super powers. He tried to impart many of these lessons upon Luke.
Then the PT happened and Jedi became a dime a dozen and way more organized/high profile than you would expect of an ancient tradition of mystics who practiced a faith so obscure that people still didn't believe in it 30 years after it was virtually wiped out.
Seriously, giving Jedi a centralized galactic command center from which they get dispatched on missions was the wrong direction.
They should have been a loosely aligned order of monks/hermits spanning the galaxy. The decision to participate/not participate in the Clone Wars should have been left to each individual Jedi, not a central council that decided on their behalf and to made all Jedi into military leaders. It should have been something that only the more brash and idealistic young Jedi pursued.
If their is no structure than they wouldn't be an Order. They'd be hobbyists at best.
Also the only ones that ever saw the Jedi use their powers during the war were clones and droids. There were also only around 10,000 of them in a galaxy of quadrillions. The admiral who said that to Vader was also a condescending know-it-all asshole who still probably wrote Vader's choking off as some kind of trick.
>>78779734 They were knights. If you are a knighgt you belong to an order of some kind. You're just mad they didn't follow your headcanon.
And even if that weren't the case, what's the problem with building new lore? It doesn't contradict anything but the strictest of fanboy headcanons that are rooted on dogmatic interpretations of lines that could mean or imply a number of things.
The absolute worst criticism someone could make of any material is "It doesn't match my headcanon," which is all too common among fans of long running franchises.
>>78779466 >Also the only ones that ever saw the Jedi use their powers during the war were clones and droids.
In the events of Episode 1, they made it quite clear that Jedi were sent to conduct negotiations between the Trade Federation and Naboo and that this was not a particularly unheard of scenario. Everyone on Amidala's court seemed familiar with Jedi. Nute Gunray didn't, but the folks around him certainly knew Jedi were a big deal.
Lord knows how many people on Corouscant fly by the temple on a daily basis. And all Anakin has to say is "Jedi business" in a Corouscant bar, and people are supposed to know what he's talking about.
Watto and Jabba live on the ass backwards planet of Tattooine, where they don't even accept Republic currency, and even they know of Jedi mind tricks.
And you act like clones and droids were the ONLY forces serving in the war, when we see the CIS allying with Count Dooku (openly Jedi), Geonosians on Geonosis fighting Jedi, the people on Utupau fighting with them, the Wookies fighting alongside them.
The fuckers were even making plans to take over control of the senate after removing Palpatine from office. Certainly not something that would have made any sense if they were some secretive barely known organization with no recognized authority/public legitimacy.
It's mentioned that there were 10,000 Jedi- which sounds like few compared to a Republic spanning hundreds of worlds- but that makes them about as common/moreso compared to Galactic Senators if the seats in the Senate are any indication.
>Luke fucks around in a desert all his life >Picks up a lightsaber and does some barely-even-training reflecting lasers >Suddenly is an amazing pilot and destroys the Death Star on his own >Before getting trained by Yoda can still go toe-to-toe with Vader and be an awesome badass
>Rei fights as a scavenger and is shown with her staff multiple times >Rei is shown multiple times to know her way around parts of ships, it was her fucking job and way of getting food for herself >Rei is shown being scared she's fucking up the Millennium Falcon and shocked she did it >Rei manages to beat an injured and misguided, not fully-trained loser with the help of her friends, one of whom dies and the other is in a coma >Rei is considered a Mary Sue while Luke is fellatio'd forever
>>78780382 Jedi having status does not mean most of the galaxy believes they have magic powers. And you missed the part where I said the guy who said the line you're basing the whole 'Jedi are esoteric' premise on was a thorough skeptic whose opinions should not be considered indicative of the wider galaxy.
>>78780421 Now you're just being semantic and sticking to the strictest definition of a knight. Do I really need to list off the various knighthood orders? Knights were military units and militaries are organized. Ipso facto, they are structured and have an order.
>>78780159 >They were knights. If you are a knighgt you belong to an order of some kind.
Unless you're not. Plenty of "knights" exist that are not members of orders like the Knights Templar. In fact... most people with the rank of Knight weren't members of such orders.
>>You're just mad they didn't follow your headcanon... The absolute worst criticism someone could make of any material is "It doesn't match my headcanon," which is all too common among fans of long running franchises.
It's not my headcanon. I just think it's the direction they should have gone with.
Just like "I think the movies would have been better without Ewoks/Jar Jar Binks" isn't headcanon.
But the "Jedi Order"? That actually *is* someone's headcanon made into canon. Why can't someone be mad about *that*?
>> It doesn't contradict anything but the strictest of fanboy headcanons that are rooted on dogmatic interpretations of lines that could mean or imply a number of things.
Well when one of the chief plot points about the force is that the Jedi are mysterious and poorly understood, having them be high profile and integrated into the existing government as ambassadors/peacekeepers/generals just a generation prior requires a lot of ridiculous explanations.
And not only do you have to create excuses, you have to do so in order to present an image of the Jedi that takes away a lot of mysticism and mystery they already had.
I mean sure, I could have a scene where they explain what the Force is scientifically and then come back in supplemental material and explain THAT so that it meshes up with the OT, but why go through all the trouble? Why not just create an explanation that is plenty compatible with the OT without additional explanation which at the same time serves to demystify the force?
If you're a Knight of the Garter, that means you belong to the Order of the Garter; if you're a knight of the Dragon, that means you belong to the Order of the Dragon, if you;re a Jedi Knight, that means you belong of the Jedi Order.
>>78780918 Personally, I would have done a bit of both: a loyal but rigid central Order and good but unfocused vagabonds jedi. Actually, the EU had some elements of that.
The failure of the Jedi would have been the growing distance between those two part of the jedi Order. The jedi of Coruscant are too rigid because they are trying too hard to be a beacon of light in the corrupted capital. The vagabond jedi are doing good wherever they are but are missing the big picture. Or something like that. But that's just me saying things.
>>78780872 >Now you're just being semantic and sticking to the strictest definition of a knight. Do I really need to list off the various knighthood orders? Knights were military units and militaries are organized. Ipso facto, they are structured and have an order.
No, you're being semantic if you think every usage of the term "knight"- especially in a setting where there's not actual European Monarchy- refers exclusively to people who are part of formal military organizations.
People use "knight" all the time when referring to any valiant person/champion of a cause, not necessarily one that is part of a formal militant order with other knights.
I'm just saying how I would have done if I had been involved. Which I'm pretty sure anyone who has ever criticized any aspect of Star Wars material does.
A far cry from saying that the movies and its depictions of events are not canon and that what I would have wanted is official and how I look at everything else in the franchise.
>>78781352 >You may get your wish someday if they ever decide to go into the Old Republic. George described the Jedi as such in that time frame, which later evolved into what we saw in the prequels.
It's starting to look like the new trilogy is going in this direction: much more mystic. That "member of the Church of the Force" and the guy we saw from Rogue One give more of a Sufi/Buddhist monk vibe. Rather decentralized/mystically inclined monastic practices vibe. They look like they spend more time contemplating the secrets of the universe than they do policing, sitting in council meetings, and conducting multilateral peace talks.
>>78781801 >Well if we're going semantic, wouldn't the use of the word by in universe people be modified by their view on those who take the name, the jedi?
Yes. Which likely means it doesn't imply the exact same thing it does in real life. So it doesn't mean Jedi are noble mounted warriors or members of Crusader orders... or members of any organized order really.
>>78781628 Dude, stop. That's reaching and you know it. The movie was made by an American writer in the English language. The words in the movie have the same meaning in universe as they do in our universe.
They are Jedi Knights. Another way of saying that is Knights of the Jedi. If you are a knight "of something" you belong to an order.
>>78781947 One of the running themes of the Prequel and Clone War era was the Jedi contemplating whether or not it was a mistake swearing loyalty to a government. If they go that route with the ST, then it is a direct continuation of what the PT set up.
>>78782035 >Dude, stop. That's reaching and you know it. The movie was made by an American writer in the English language. The words in the movie have the same meaning in universe as they do in our universe.
And "knight" has lots of meanings that don't mean "member of a formal military order". And that's before it got used in a scifi/fantasy setting.
Taking old terms and using them in new ways is not a rare thing in science fiction/fantasy.
Star Destroyers do not fill the function of actual destroyers in the Imperial fleet. People don't tend to refer to just any large battleship/warship as a destroyer.
Fighters use proton torpedoes instead of proton missiles, even though torpedos are underwater weapons while missiles are for everything else. People don't generally refer to any aircraft launched explosive as a torpedo.
They use the term lightsaber, despite the fact that the weapon is not a saber (single bladed sword with a prominent handguard) and is not made of light (plasma based). People don't generally just refer to any sword as a saber.
And yet, you want to be a stickler about their liberal (yet perfectly valid) use of the term "knight" and suggest it can only be used in one sense? People use the term "knight" to describe people who aren't literal members of knightly orders all the time.
>>78782654 You know perfectly well all those technical names were chosen simply because they sound cool. George wasn't redefining any words when he was naming the tech.
The Jedi not being an order makes no sense. Why would the Empire bother wiping them out if they weren't a threat? The only way they would be a threat is if they were a cohesive, united organization that would oppose the Empire, not a bunch a hippie monks where the majority of its members minded their own business.
Being "guardians of peace and justice" means they swore some kind of oath and had some sort of structure to guide them through the logistics that such a role would require.
>>78783165 >You know perfectly well all those technical names were chosen simply because they sound cool. George wasn't redefining any words when he was naming the tech.
And "Jedi Knight" isn't rule of cool? As if people don't use "knight" and "warrior" and "paladin" and "champion" interchangeably all the time to refer to noble/idealistic/religious warriors- even ones who aren't formal members of an actual knightly order?
>>The Jedi not being an order makes no sense. Why would the Empire bother wiping them out if they weren't a threat? The only way they would be a threat is if they were a cohesive, united organization that would oppose the Empire, not a bunch a hippie monks where the majority of its members minded their own business.
Because the power of the Force doesn't lie in numbers. It's not about being a big organized army. The force is such that when called upon by even one person, it can do amazing things.
It's why Vader pointed out that the Death Star's power paled in comparison to the force. He clearly wasn't talking about a hundred Jedi using their combined powers. It was the movie foreshadowing how a country bumpkin in his first outing in an X-wing would overcome all odds and blow up the Death Star with the help of the Force.
It's also why Yoda tells Luke not to judge him by his size/physical prowess, because his ally is the Force.
In the end, the Emporer isn't defeated by an army of Jedi. A single Jedi (Vader) tosses him to his death after having been brought back to the light side.
And the Empire didn't actually wipe out the Jedi. The Emporer and Vader were still around. They weren't "Sith" at the time the movies were written because the idea of "Sith" didn't even exist until later on in the EU/supplemental material. They were originally just Jedi who drew on the power of the dark side and- understanding how powerful the Force was- tried to take down any others who wielded this potentially amazing power.
>>78783614 >And the Empire didn't actually wipe out the Jedi. The Emporer and Vader were still around. They weren't "Sith" at the time the movies were written because the idea of "Sith" didn't even exist until later on in the EU/supplemental material. They were originally just Jedi who drew on the power of the dark side and- understanding how powerful the Force was- tried to take down any others who wielded this potentially amazing power.
Actually, "Dark Lord of the Sith" existed as far back as the early scripts, but was never mentioned in the actual movies and was pretty much just a cool sounding title until its was expanded on later.
The title does sound a little grandiose for someone who was an equal/inferior to Tarkin in a New Hope and the inferior of the Emperor in Return of the Jedi.
>>78783614 Everything you just said is conjecture and headcanon based on singular interpretations of lines that have more than one meaning.
This was my whole point before you got us side tracked on semantics.
Force Users are not all powerful, else they'd be gods. Hence the need of an army if you want to police a galaxy like Obi-Wan stated they did.
>They weren't "Sith" at the time the movies were written because the idea of "Sith" didn't even exist until later on in the EU/supplemental material. They were originally just Jedi who drew on the power of the dark side and- understanding how powerful the Force was- tried to take down any others who wielded this potentially amazing power.
Sith have been canon since before Lucas even finished the final draft. They were mentioned throughout the rough drafts.
This is what I meant by assuming based on headcanon.
>>78783993 >Everything you just said is conjecture and headcanon based on singular interpretations of lines that have more than one meaning.
So when Vader mentioned that the power of the Death Star paled in comparison to the nature of the Force, you thought he meant an army of Jedi?
When Yoda admonishes Luke for judging him for his size and not taking into account his mastery of the Force, it's not a statement about the power of the force as opposed to raw physical power?
When Luke has the power and opportunity to strike down both Vader and the Emporer and chooses not to, cites his devotion to the way of the Jedi, later which leads to Vader having a change of heart, what do you think the message was?
>>Force Users are not all powerful, else they'd be gods.
No they aren't. That's why Vader said it paled in comparison to the power of the FORCE, not the power of the Jedi. That's why Yoda said that he was powerful because his ally was the Force.
The Force is the energy field that sustains us, binds us, and has the ability to guide peoples' actions.
>>Hence the need of an army if you want to police a galaxy like Obi-Wan stated they did.
He didn't say they POLICE the galaxy. He said they were guardians of peace and justice.
You can do that and not be an organized police force. Most fantasy/scifi settings have wandering adventurers/heroes who right wrongs and do stuff with a great deal of autonomy because they follow some general code of goodness.
The prequels have been softly written out of canon by the new film series. As in, despite the fact that for official Disney merchandise and non-movie reasons they must still continue to be canon in a technical sense, literally nothing that was portrayed directly in them will be mentioned ever again. All the stupid shit that Yoda did as a result of George Lucas temporarily ruining Star Wars doesn't really count. And thank fucking Christ for that.
OT Yoda (the only actual real Yoda) never made a bad decision. He was super careful about who he taught, so that he didn't create any more enemies. It took Obi-Wan's pleading to convince him to train Luke, even, and I think he only went with it because he knew that Obi-Wan's opinion carried weight, and they were desperate for someone to defeat the Emperor. Yoda sure as hell couldn't, not personally at least. Apart from training Luke and hiding in a remote system where the Empire couldn't find him, Yoda didn't do anything. I guess he held the truth back from Luke about his father, at least until a time that he would be more prepared for it. It's debatable whether that would have turned out well or not, but I'm confident telling him right off the bad would be bad.
>>78784537 Guy said Sith is a new thing that was thought of after OT. I'm pointing out they've always been a thing even if they weren't mentioned on screen.
>>78784499 >So when Vader mentioned that the power of the Death Star paled in comparison to the nature of the Force, you thought he meant an army of Jedi? No, he was putting the admiral in his place. You can't take what he says literally and believe a Force user has the power to destroy a planet.
>He didn't say they POLICE the galaxy. He said they were guardians of peace and justice. That's the definiton of policing. They are peacekeepers and maintain public order.
Not sure what your point is with the rest. What Yoda is talking about has no implication on whether or not the Jedi were an Order. He's talking about their philosophy, which I'm not arguing, but due to the nature of philosophy it is very open to interpretation. Again, it has nothing to due with whether or not the Jedi are an Order.
And with that, these captchas have worn out their welcome. I have to solve the damn thing 4 times now. So I'll make this my last post.
The whole reason I chimed in is because I see many fans say the PT contradicts the OT. It doesn't. They base this assertions on little lines that can have more than one interpretation (Sheev's line about lightsabers is a big one even though he could have been taking a jab at Luke for thinking he's a Jedi simply by using one of their weapons) or they view something as a plot hole simply because it isn't directly explained to them even if it's unimportant to the main narrative or can be explained with a little critical thinking.
Whether or not the PT are good movies is a whole different argument.
>>78785120 >>78784844 We have seen one film. To insinuate that they wont reference them is silly at this point.
It has nothing to do with the canon whether or not they decide to cite the prequels. Like it or not the prequels and the Clone Wars series are all canon. They had a lot of problems but the overarching story and themes were all sound and good.
>>78785230 Are the prequels as universally panned as /co/ and the rest of nerdom thinks? Every normie I've talked to about them has mostly positive things to say. The only criticism that I ever hear repeated by normies is that the romance could have been better.
>>78785255 When he says the ability to destroy a planet is nothing next to the force he means everything the force can do. It is literally a powerful energy that exists and surrounds all things, you can study and learn it, tap into it but you can never fully comprehend it. Blowing up a planet is great and powerful but with the force so many things are possible. The force is a guiding and powerful energy.
To compare the force to raw power doesn't do it justice. It is literally everything.
>>78785438 A lot of normees like them still. Alot of the people I talk to who only casually like Star Wars still really seem to enjoy the prequels to some extent. I think Revenge of the Sith is actually a pretty solid movie.
>>78785255 >No, he was putting the admiral in his place. You can't take what he says literally and believe a Force user has the power to destroy a planet.
And he's right because a force user DOESN'T have the ability to destroy planets. Are you suggesting that Vader was claiming a force user can destroy planets?
>>That's the definiton of policing. They are peacekeepers and maintain public order.
You can be a guardian of peace and justice and be a free agent who is not be a member of a massive police force. Again, this is very often the case in most science fiction/fantasy.
>>The whole reason I chimed in is because I see many fans say the PT contradicts the OT. It doesn't. They base this assertions on little lines that can have more than one interpretation (Sheev's line about lightsabers is a big one even though he could have been taking a jab at Luke for thinking he's a Jedi simply by using one of their weapons) or they view something as a plot hole simply because it isn't directly explained to them even if it's unimportant to the main narrative or can be explained with a little critical thinking.
It's not so much that they contradict them. They can be explained if you go out of your way to explain them.
Are the midichlorians are "plot hole"? No. Is the Jedi Order a "plot hole"? No. Is "Anakin built c3p0 a "plot hole"? No. Is Obi Wan learning how to become a force ghost a "plot hole"? No. They all get explained.
Do they demystify the Jedi, feel contrived at times, and make you think about stuff you really don't need to think about? Yeah.
They're panned only in relation to the OT. They aren't really that bad, and even those fans who claim to hate them have still watched them and know more about them than anyone else.
It's like Legend of Korra vs Legend of Aang. Korra got pretty positive reviews from casuals, and fans watched every episode, but there were plenty of sticking points and lots of people were disappointed by it and saw room for improvement.
And you had better believe that if they did another series and it stuck closer to Legend of Aang, people would be bringing up criticisms of Korra.
>>78785810 I found that out the hard way when I went to discuss Mad Max, one of the most fun movies in decades. Nothing but >lolcuck >he fell for the SJW propaganda >Max is a minor character in his own movie and other endless meme shit. Nothing about the practical effects or cool characters and setting.
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