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If you could teach a class on comics as literature...
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If you could teach a class on comics as literature what comics would you teach

I need suggestions
>>
>>78741313
Nothing with superheroes.

Try reading actual fucking books for a change.

If you MUST include comics then the only things at that level are Carl Barks' Duck comics and that's literally it.
>>
Sandman
Animal Man
Most of Alan Moore
>>
>>78741313
All Star Superman

It's a Bird

Enigma

Watchmen

Promethea
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>>78741313
I would limit the number of superhero comics, some people might react against them.
I would focus as much on the panel layout and the way that things are conveyed visually as the writing.
I would do a comparative section on American, Franco-Belgian and Japanese comics.
I would make everyone read Understanding Comics before anything else because I am a lazy teacher.
>>
>>78741399
well I need nine suggestions, one book for every 2 weeks
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>>78741575
I was definitely thinking doing bits and pieces of understanding comics as supplemental material since it only meets once a week
>>
Maus
Persepolis
At the Mountains of Madness
Mosaic by Gerard Jones
God Loves, Man Kills
and maaaybe Transmetropolitan
>>
>>78741313
Persepolis
Memetic
MindMGMT
Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck
Blankets
Watchmen
The Incal
Animal Man
Maus
>>
>>78741399
>Try reading actual fucking books for a change.
>for a "comics as literature" class

I guess it's true that reading books doesn't always make you smart.
>>
City of Glass by Paul Karasik and David Mazzucchelli
Contract With God by Eisner
Human Diastrophism by Gilbert Hernandez
Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller
From Hell by Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell
Jim by Jim Woodring
American Splendor by Harvey Pekar et all

And Maus, cause every class about comics uses Maus
>>
>>78741782
I like the idea of teaching Mind MGMT. I'm interested in how kindt uses the entirety of the page layout to tell a full story rather than just the comic panels
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>>78741832
Kindt is fucking masterful. The hardest part of teaching that is the large number of issues and the lack of some ancillary material in collections.
>>
>>78741313
Brian Michael Bendis , Kelly Sue Deconnick or Matt Fraction
Fun fact: they are friends with that guy Chuck from the Fight Club
>>
>>78741313
Cerebus, because according to /co/ it's the greatest comic book ever made or something.
>>
>>78741819
He's telling him to bring manchild funnybooks to teach in a class for "comics as literature"...I mean, come on...
>>
I actually took one in college. Started with the Bayeux Tapestry and hieroglyphics. Went on through the years, did French, Belgian, and Japanese comics as well as superhero stuff. I did my big paper on Akira.
>>
>>78741825
>Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller
Fuck this guy. Go for Ronin instead.
>>
>>78741313
Sandman Mystery Theatre
Asterios Polyp
City of Glass
Maybe Morrison's Doom Patrol?
Bacchus
Charles Burns's stuff
Acme Novelty Library (anything by Ware, really)
Judge Dredd, maybe
>>
op here. trying to avoid doing too many ongoings because that would require a month's worth of focus. need more complete stories.
>>
>>78741313
nextwave
always nextwave.

But yes, limit the selection of superhero comics and focus on other genres, works from other countries.

My list would be, for no particular reason expect I like the titles:
Stray toasters
David Boring
Condorito
Mouse Guard
Habibi
Kiki de Montparnasse
Adolf ni Tsugu
and nextwave
>>
>>78742007
I enjoy Ronin more, but I think someone could get more out of teaching DKR.
>>
>>78742124
>Adolf ni Tsugu
Perfect taste.
>>
out of all of the stuff listed
scrooge mcduck
maus
persepolis
watchmen
and a different work by matt kindt (possibly revolver) are going on the list.

I'm considering asterios polyp and one work of frank millers and one work of grant morrisons
>>
>>78741399
kek, fucking faggot
>>
>>78742166
or forgoing morrison altogether because all his best stuff is in ongoings.

i need at least one work of manga on the list I feel, so what's the most essential japanese comic
>>
>>78741313
Cerebus The Aardvark.
>>
>>78742205
Akira
>>
>>78741313
>>78741581
Maus
Persepolis
one of the Tintin stories and/or somthing by Moebius
Something by Alan Moore. Watchmen makes better use of the medium but V for Vendetta is shorter and more approachable. Most of his I can't see most of his other stuff being a good introduction for the uninitiated.
>>
>>78742205
Anything by Tezuka. Literally anything.
>>
>>78742205
>his best stuff is in ongoings
Not gonna say his best stuff isn't among JLA, Animal Man, New X-Men, or The Invisibles, but holy shit is Multiversity good.

It and Final Crisis are retroactively made better because of the brick-laying in the ongoings.
>>
would you teach any brandon graham /co/?
>>
>>78742342
I do like Buddha a lot

>>78742349
if I have extra space I'll teach ultra comics as a primer into morrison's metafiction or pax americana along with watchmen
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>>78742410
Phoenix is wonderful, as is >>78742156
>>
>>78742342
Seconding this desu
>>
>>78741313
>>78741581


If this is for uni or school, I'd recommend:

- Vagabond (manga, yes. Still a comic) which is a great adaptation of a novel
- Les Cités Obscures as an example of using comics as a literally medium (written by a novelist to top). Keraskoet is also good.
- The Eternaut / El Eternauta for politics in fiction (and science fiction in particular)
- Cerebus the Aardvark for exploring the limits of the medium (there's many of these kind and some better than Cerebus, but none as iconic nor can I can remember)
- Tintin or any of the European classic as an example of adventure comics
- Anything by Kirby-Lee or just Kirby. Ideally Captain America (pulp comics), Fantastic Four / Thor / Spider-Man (example of golden age superhero comics) or Kirby's New Gods
- Something by Robert Crumb for being one of the pioneers of underground comix and one of the first to tell the CCA to fuck itself, and a general example of the 70s in comics.
- l'Incal or anything in Heavy Metal / Metal Hürlant for epics, experimental topics and a general outlook of the 80s in comics
- To continue with comics, Dork or any of the 90s Alternative Comics. You'll be hard pressed to find any good ones tho'
- Watchmen as an example of a deconstruction of genre fiction
- For something modern, try and use any of the modern indie graphic novels. There's three trends: The autobiographical ones like the one where that girl goes to a vacation camp and shit happens, the the modern alt comix like Prison Pit and Love & Rockets. Then you have more safe stuff like Underwater Welder and Asterios Polyp. There's a ton and many are great.

I don't know how sensible you gringos are but you should probably try and drop some risque stuff like Italian erotica (Serpieri and Manara come to mind)
>>
>>78741313
Maus
Persepolis
Watchmen
>>
>>78742236
>>78742517
Yes, I'm sure they'll have a lot of time to read Cerebus, great idea, idiots.
>>
He's done lots of shorter works which you could pick from, Black Jack might also be a good pick because its chapters almost never have overarching stories, so you can read only as much of a volume as you need.
>>
>>78742517
oh i do plan on covering manga
excellent list would not have considered some of those
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>>78742517
Seconding Underwater Welder, or Essex County.
>>
>>78741313

I'd suggest Saga of the Swamp Thing, especially the American Gothic stories that were all mostly self contained one issue stories
>>
>>78742517
This is a man who knows some stuff
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>>78742647
what would you say are the literary qualities and common themes that jeff lemire explores? I was thinking maybe nature and nationalism in comics. jeff lemire uses heavy canadian stuff in his books
>>
>>78742166
Your loss, man.
>nobody on /co/ likes Mosiac but me ;_;

>>78742353
I wouldn't teach Prophet to a literature class. Its a nice "Whoa man what if the future looked like this and that," but it doesn't explore the societal/ethical consequences of any of it. Its just a fuckton of awesome sci-fi concepts and ice-cream art. Then again, I spontaneously dropped it halfway through so I don't know what happens later on. I really have to catch up, objects at the end of the month are closer than they appear.
>>
>>78742609
Was meant to reply to >>78742410
Also maybe somthing like Peanuts or Calvin and Hobbes? Could make for a lighter week before or after a break.
>>
>>78742729
Nature, nationalism, and isolation.
>>
>>78742745
i like mosaic but it seems a little deep cut
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>>78742758
jeff lemire as a sort of modern transcendentalist maybe?
>>
>>78742777
mmmmm... yeah. I have to concur with that.
>>
>>78742815
It could be argued, I suppose. He just tells damn good stories of tragically lonely people managing to survive the horrors of the mundane.
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>>78742745
i wasn't thinking prophet so much as king city or multiple warheads as a means of using artwork to explore narrative. all of his solo works tend to have minimal dialogue and really let the art tell the story
>>
>>78742602
You're right. It deserves a class all to its own.
>>
Daytripper could be wonderful.
>>
>>78741581
If you absolutely MUST, then:

Morrison's Doom Patrol
Born Again
Barks' Ducks
The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck
Charley's War
Planetary
Conan v1 (Dark Horse)
Akira (Epic Comics colorized version)
Julius Corentin Acquefacques, Prisoner of dreams

The only one I'm not sure of is Born Again. I just can't think of what to replace it with. I'm tempted to say Chandler Red Tide, but I dunno.

And don't listen to the faggots recommending Maus. It's the ultimate "PLEASE GIVE ME CRITICAL ACCLAIM" comic. Stick to shit that achieved something great without having to fall back on clichés and easy mode genre crutches like "holocaust drama".
>>
>>78742755

Last Stand of the Wreckers would be perfect for a pre-break or post-break week. It's just a fun light action story and it has some nice things you can talk about a bit.
>>
>>78742517
>Something by Robert Crumb for being one of the pioneers of underground comix

He was a hack though. Literally just porn.
>>
>>78741313
I kill giants
Corto maltese
The eternaut
>>
>>78741965
Cerebus is one of the most important and influential comics ever made (and anybody who hasn't read it yet is a casual).

But it's definitely NOT amongst the all-time greatest comics. Not after Chasing YHWH.
>>
>>78742517
>- To continue with comics,
meant to say comix

There's a lot of other options you could consider. Early newspaper comic strips (you can go as far as using Punch the London Carivari and Puck as examples of comic pioneers), comix inspired 80s-90s parody and satire comics, educative / documental comics like Hip Hop Family Tree, Maus and meta stuff like Understanding Comics. Probably even more things I don't know about.

>>78742602
Well I don't know exactly what "1 book for every two weeks" entails. Posted assuming OP was making an essay / presentation on each.

>>78742623
Wich I could help you more with that. There's some absolutely fascinating stuff the Nips do, they have an attention to movement and detail that's almost unheard of in the west and have absolutely bizarre experimental works.
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Just make a sticky with this image already, to be honest.
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>>78742623
Jojo part 1
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>>78743666
From a modern perspective that book looks ridiculous now.
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>>78743700
You mean the cover and the concept? I'd say the material really still holds up.
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>>78743519
all of my favorite manga is either shonen shit or just stuff that involves fighting like berserk or blade of the immortal. i do like tezuka stuff though and ranma 1/2
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>>78743738
There's been so much shit that's happened with digital shit, webcomics, "widescreen" comics, etc. since it was published that now it seems at best outdated.
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>>78743927
Like what? Can you name an example of specific content from Understanding Comics that is now invalidated?
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>>78743976
The entire perspective is ridiculous. It's a bunch of theory that doesn't work out in practice. There's a reason no one cares about McCloud's actual comic work.
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>>78744056
Okay, but can you name an example of specific content from Understanding Comics that is now invalidated?

Seriously, something specific, please.
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>>78741313
Comics aren't literature rethink your class
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>>78744149
>m-muh artforms can't be looked at critically
>>
Last Days of an Immortal is sweet at four issues for something short.
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>>78742996
All the comix I've read can be described as that. Punk, sex and gross out humour where their kind of thing.

>>78743563
>>78742955
Akira is a great example of sci fi and Morrison's Doom Patrol is, on top of a great comic that plays around with themes and storytelling, a subtle parody/love letter of the 60s and 70s political movements.

Gonna Check out Charly's War. Tried to get Acquefaques but I couldn't find the series in english.

>>78743700
>>78743927
Well, it's meant to give the reader the basics in the format and form. It's true that the medium has evolved a ton, we should tell Scott to start thinking of making Understanding Comics 2.

>>78743870
I had a backlog with +300 items and great names, around 50 of them manga, in there but I lost it in a HDD crash. Only eastern thing I could read in depth were some horror artists of which Junji Ito consistently blew my mind.
>>
>>78744718
Didn't he do a sequel that talked about webcomics back when webcomics were still a barely formed thing?
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>>78744718
The first two issues are translated at the very least.

Julius Corentin Acquefacques, Prisoner of dreams 01 - The Origin (Dragonz-Kakanian).cbr
http://www1.zippyshare.com/v/U0RUdfkI/file.html

Julius Corentin Acquefacques, Prisoner of dreams 02 - The C.... (Dragonz-Kakanian).cbr
http://www27.zippyshare.com/v/9dVjU2f4/file.html
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>>78744846
From what I'm reading right now, he did speculation book on the future of comics in the 2000 called Reinventing Comics, but nothing really fancy.

I'd like to know what he has to say about a bunch of things. Comics that use nonstatic .gifs, comics that present themselves in takes like marvel's digital stuff, comics that evolve according and even depend on fandom input like Problem Sleuth and interactive content in comics like Homestuck and Prequel

As rage inducing as the stuff I mentioned can be to some people, regardless of the content itself, if you put it against the classic comic and webcomic formats they are downright revolutionary.
>>
>>78741973
lol but a class on comic books as literature should at least have one book from DC and Marvel since they make up the vast majority of comic book sales, plus the most popular comics ARE capeshit
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>>78746016
Should a class on regular literature include Harry Potter & The Hunger Games because they're popular?
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>>78741544
>>78742023
>Sandman
This. Some hubub has been made about it already. You could probably find a book about it, even.
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>>78742745
>but it doesn't explore the societal/ethical consequences of any of it.
If that's the criteria, then Concrete is what OP wants.
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>>78746075
No, because while they ARE popular, they're far from the best.
With capeshit, on the other hand, there are plenty of really great capeshit stories that are top-of-the-genre, not to mention the fact that Action Comics/Detective Comics are the reason that comics rose to popularity

not to mention the fact that a lot of literature classes do, in fact, incorporate HP and "Africans Playing Volleyball: the Book"
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>>78742342
>Literally anything.
Oh come on. There are long works and short ones and ones with furry porn. Make some recommendations.
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>>78746355
>not to mention the fact that Action Comics/Detective Comics are the reason that comics rose to popularity
It's a "comics as literature" class, not a "comics history" class.
>>
>>78746355
>not to mention the fact that Action Comics/Detective Comics are the reason that comics rose to popularity
But comics aren't popular.

Well, they are in other countries, where superheroes don't dominate. In fact, in some parts of the world, comics are considered to be "the ninth art".

I guess you could say that Action Comics/Detective Comics are the reason why comics AREN'T popular in America.
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>>78746408
So are you saying that Shakespeare shouldn't be in a normal literature class?
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>>78742517
>written by a novelist
That reminds me.
>>
Sandman volume 8: (World's End)
Daytripper
Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Kid on Earth
Batman and Robin (or something else to showcase Quietly's art)
Some of the old crime comics/tales from the crypt stuff
The Spirit (compare Will Eisner to Darwyn Cooke's 'reboot', MAYBE include the movie too)
Enigma
>>
>>78743563
Where's part 2 of 2?
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>>78744718
>but I lost it in a HDD crash.
http://www.freenas.org/for-home/
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>>78741313
Jeff Smith's Bone
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>>78741544
Pretty much this with a few indy titles thrown in.

Going to teach comics, OP? Living the dream. I wanted to teach Watchmen when I taught high school English but my principal was an ignorant hick and I knew I couldn't argue the value of the comic to trump the blue dick.
>>
>>78746075
Yes, it's an introductory class, and they're trying to explain basic theory by contrasting some beloved canon with stuff kids just filling credit requirements may have heard of before. Or just anyway, because college is a scam now.
>>
>>78746464
For the same reason Freud is in a psychology class or Aristotle is in a philosophy class: they are well known, and were totally wrong about everything.
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>>78747350
>well known, and totally wrong about everything
You just described the more popular capeshit comics and their manchild ideologies.
Again, why WOULDN'T they put capeshit in a comics as literature class?
>>
>>78747582
You have to establish some comics that are literature by comparing them to conventional literature first. Anything but the most meritorious capeshit could wait for semester 2, or be skipped.
>>78747308
>it's
if it's*
>>
Concrete
Cerebus
Eteranaut
Corto maltese
Some lemire stuff
Hellboy
Matt kindt stuff
And I dunno stray bullets
>>
>>78744479
They can't be looked at as literature. Comics and literature are different mediums
http://www.tcj.com/the-literaries/
>>
I would love to teach a course on Mike Carey's Lucifer. I'd argue it's more multi-layered than Gaiman's Sandman, and its depiction of the Devil ranks among the top ten depictions in all of history.

Using Marston's usage of themes would also be a crazy thing to teach.
>>
>>78747787
But it barely references the bible.
>>
Watchmen
V for Vendetta
TDKR
Hellblazer: Dangerous Habits (here's an unusual one)
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>>78748107
And it's a stronger work for it.
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>>78747730
>tcj
ugh
also, this just means to me that comics aren't to be held to the standards of literature. What I want to do with this class is make people love comics while also looking at them in a critical manner. Saying a medium can't be looked at in a critical, academic manner because of the medium itself is reductive thinking
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>>78748155
How is DH literary?
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>>78748394
Then you want stuff known for "good writing".
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>>78748394
I'm not saying comics can't be looked at critically you should just stop comparing them to books and do better at critiquing the art work
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IF you need end of year filler, want to offer extra credit, or need a something for fun, I highly recommend Everything is Illuminated.
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>>78749048
But they contain writing. It's as natural to compare them to books as it is to compare modern vidya to films.
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>>78742517
>Heavy Metal
My nigga.
>>
>>78746171
You can't exactly expect the students to read all of that shit, it would be like assigning an entire TV series as required viewing
>>
>>78750565
>there are comics posted ITT with ~300 issues
>you object to a comic with a measly 75
lol?
>>
>>78741313
Watchmen, um, its Watchmen
Blankets, best self examination
Infinity Gauntlet, man deals with failing at Godhood
We3, literature represented by pictures
The Filth, subversive examination of society
The Intimates, coming of age in a digital age
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You should at least have one lesson on the origins of comic books. Max und Moritz, maybe something about the Yellow Kid, old political diss comics and such.
>>
>>78741313
Scott Pilgrim
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>>78745172
Thanks mate

>>78747730
>>78748394
Comics are comics. Literature is literature. They are different mediums and each is to be held up to their own standards.

To think comics are reductive and can't be held to high standards or seen as art is laughable.

>>78746016
You need to read comics outside the US. Capes are but a fraction of the international market.

>>78747308
>>78748394
I don't know how much stuff like Watchmen and Dork would stand to absolute comic newbies. They'll possibility love something like l'Incal, Sloane, Cerebus or Tintin as long as they don't flip out over seeing a boob. Getting them to appreciate the genred with simplicity, fun and a little 2deep4u is your best bet.

Best thing to do would also explain some things about the CCA and how hard it fucked american comics in the ass.
>>
>>78746016
That's only true in the US. Worldwide mangas and franco-belgian sell more and have no cape genre.
If you're going to have 2 separate classes on DC and Marvel (for no other reason besides company war faggotry) then you should have a class about both Naruto and One Piece. Which is a waste of time.
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>>78741313
I wouldn't bother. Pushing ones tastes on others never works, they'll just end up hating what you try to share. Especially if they're kids. If they're adults then ask if there's any interest in the topic before you even bother wasting your time on research. Else, stick to the bare bones.
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>>78750565
It has distinct arcs that only lightly reference each other. To get the overarching story, you could probably read More Than Rubies, parts of The Doll's House, Brief Lives, The Kindly Ones and The Wake and get most of it. And maybe A Game of You for extra credit.
>>
>>78751000
While many are resistant as fuck to discover anything in the context of school, I know one of the main reasons I like reading books was because I was forced to read and understand some material in school. In other words: no.
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>>78750844
>explain some things about the CCA and how hard it fucked american comics in the ass.
Perfect time to touch on manga, to show how they fucked themselves just fine in Japan without a CCJ.
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>>78750990
>and have no cape genre.
Bite your tongue.
>>
>>78741313
Like another anon said, Understanding Comics, would be first. Later on would be Comics and Sequential art.

The best intro comics would probably be:
Little Nemo in Slumberland
Peanuts
Calvin and Hobbes
Farside

From there I'd do one page comics. Like the Vancouver thing someone posted the other day.

Then single issue floppies.
Dream of 1000 Cats (Sandman, ? which issue)
GI Joe #21 (even though there are no words)
Swamp Thing, "my blue valentine" I think it's named.

At this point it would be collected stories and graphic novels.
Death: The Time of Your Life
MIND MGMT
MAUS
The Spirit
Letters from Sarajevo

These would be examples of what the form is capable of, to build a connection between printed/book literature and the additional visual literature of comics.

Hope this helps and if you do get a class going OP, the best of luck with it. May it exceed your expectations.
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>>78751226
Did they? I don't really know much about the Japanese scenes and industry as a whole.
>>
>>78746443
I don't entirely disagree with this statement.
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>>78751250
That's not a manga or franco-belgian though. Indians and Pakistanis are suckers for super-hero types.
>>
From Hell
>>
>If you could teach a class on comics as literature what comics would you teach

I just wouldn't.
>>
>>78742007
>>78742125
It could go both ways. I just finished a re-read of Ronin today, and it's got a lot of artistic merit, while not involving superheroes. If I were going to use a comic/GN as a reading piece in a lit class of any kind, that'd be in my top 5. Though TDKR is a good Miller choice as well, and could be used to posit external (as in "in our universe" as opposed to "in universe") character evolution. After all, it did shape the perception of Batman after the fact.
>>
>>78751941
They are these days. There's political maneuvering to harness and stampede a witch hunt aiming to solve all their society's woes by stomping out lolicon, and other absurd censorship that will only kill the industry faster in the wake of smartphones finally making serious headway in Japan.
>>
>>78752699
but... lolicon is a niche, not even that, it's a porn niche. it's practically a spec in the industry.
>>
>>78752740
So were horror comics. So were romance comics. They'll "decide" to come after one thing at a time, until all you have left is Scott Pilgrim and really weird underground or online comics. All so a handful of old rich guys can get a political leg up, and the music industry can piss on all the cakes to sell their nasty twinkies more effectively.
>>
>>78753004
stupid sexy EGS
>>
>>78741575
Definitely throw in some franco-belgian comics. Asterix might be good to look at due to him being a cultural icon, but there was one comic story-timed on /co/ a while back about a kid bellhop living in belgium during the start of (I think) the Great War, that might be a good one to track down for your class as well.
>>
As part of the curriculum you could gloss over some of the pros and cons of the huge overarching stories of most cape comics, as well as talk about how characters can change and evolve. Honestly, since you posted it in your opening post, I'd definitely say include some All Star Superman if you do choose to go for a cape book.
>>
is it for high school or university?
>>
>>78741313
Neil Gaiman's Sandman
Neil Gaiman's The Books of Magic
Alan Moore's Swamp Thing
Grant Morrison's Multiversity
Lucifer
Saga
Locke & Key
House of Mystery
>>
>>78741782
Man memetic is some depressing shit. I expected le epic sloth meemay but it ended up being a genuinely terrifying way for our species to end.

Anyway, maybe add Daytripper to these suggestions. Maybe Pax Americana?
>>
I can't believe no one has recommended Bone yet.
>>
>>78755013
check again, someone already has
>>
Take an anthropological approach, focusing on the works of people like Levi Strauss, maybe use Grant Morrison's Supergods to apply a mythological approach to superhero characters.
Use V for Vendetta to talk about intertextual reference and ideology, and Watchmen for postmodernism and deconstructionist approach.
>>
Watchmen
Ronin
Blankets
The Incal
Lone Wolf and Cub
Keep On Truckin'
Doom Patrol
The Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck
We3
Understanding Comics
>>
>>
A Contract With God for historical significance
Maus for historical significance
American Splendor for documentary experiments
Palestine by Joe Sacco for documentary comics
Anything by Robert Crumb for older Comix culture
Death Ray, Something Casual by Michael DeForge and MMO for newer comix culture
First few Superman issues, first Shazam! issues for trial controversy and the general movement of the market, how ideas are made through market movement
First Batman issues, a few episodes of the TV show and then The Dark Knight
Human Torch, Namor and Fantastic Four (with Silver Surfer)
Then Marvels and Kingdom Come to showcase continuity and the differences between DC as a wild growing tapestry and Marvel as a tight-knit collaboration effort
Maybe have one lecture about Image (for their interesting business model) and the like, maybe Dark Horse and Mignola, but no required reading there
>>
>>78756039
>>78755904

Oh and of course Asterios Polyp for narrative ingenuity
>>
>Ctrl + F no results for Y: the last man.
For shame /co/.
>>
>>78756128

What are the merits of Y the last man aside from being a good story? For it to be required reading, it should have something exceptional or representational for a bigger movement in comics. It's really good, don't get me wrong, but I don't see how it would be illustrative for anything but itself being good.
>>
>>78756128
other than it's popularity, it's really not that relevent to the history or craft of comics
>>
>>78741313
Grant Morrison's Flex Metallo, Animal Man and Multiversity. Not only are they good storytelling, but show the heights of the medium and what it can do different to other mediums.
>>
>>78757173

Not to be rude, but those things are less about the medium of comics itself, but more about the medium of serial narration in general.

If you want to educate about what can be done different in comics in opposition to movies or books, you'd have to look at people like David Mazzucchelli.
>>
>>78757280
Okay, I get it. But some of them like Pax Americana, Ultra comics and Flex Mentallo to some level do go into the structure of comic books. Though most of the metafiction can be applied to fiction in general.
>>
>>78741313
>>78741581

One book for every two weeks is really restrictive, considering your average 20ish comic can be easily read in under half an hour. I'm assuming when you say book, you mean something more like 12 issues, right?

In that case, you could have a week dealing with multiple graphic novels, for example

Dark Knight Returns
Marvels
Superman Red Son (I'd prefer ASS but that's too many pages)

Maybe if you gave us a class breakdown, it would be easier, like

1) Introduction to comics - have them read a bunch of contemporary floppies

2) American superhero comics - Golden and Silver Age

3) American superhero comics - Bronze and Dark Age

4) American superhero comics - Modern

5) American indie comics I

6) American indie comics II

7) Franco-Belgian comics

8) Italian comics (some amazing stories here, sadly very little translated into English)

9) Manga

Just an example, but giving us your idea of the syllabus would help anons fill in the gaps much easier.

Also to everyone arguing against any discussion of superhero comics beyond a token mention - this is an American university. The only rational thing is to discuss comics from an American perspective. I myself am European, but I wouldn't expect an American university to dedicate more time to European comics than to American comics, and the majority of American comics have been superhero comics, although that's changing. Not to mention, anyone taking that class would likely think of capes when someone mentions comics, and would expect them to be discussed. Not to mention that the Big Two are responsible for multi-billion dollar franchises, which absolutely makes them pop-cultural hallmarks at this point. A class on sci-fi HAS to talk about Star Wars, regardless of whether it's good sci-fi or representative of the genre (it's not, really). This is an intro class, cut the kids some slack, you have to ease them in, can't give them the really weird shit from the jump.
>>
>>78742921
That's fucking hilarious.
>>
>>78742955
>muh lolocaust
Back to /pol/ with you
>>
>>78757896
it's an 18 week class that meets once a week
i want to use two-class periods to fully cover certain works in-depth
>>
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>>78757896
> A class on sci-fi HAS to talk about Star Wars, regardless of whether it's good sci-fi or representative of the genre (it's not, really).

I don't even think they have to. Star Wars is straight up Fantasy, as nothing in the universe is constrained to or based on real-life Scientific Principles.

People just assume it's Sci-Fi because it's in space, has spaceships and flashy laser sword. Even Star Trek deserves the Title more than Star Wars.

And if you're going to use comics don't bother with most capeshit. There are obviously some exceptions but you might want to move away from that.
>>
>>78758002
I agree completely, that's why I said it's not representative of the genre. It's the Hero's Journey, just with aliens and spaceships instead of monsters and regular ships. I do think people would walk into that class expecting to talk about SW, regardless, for the reasons you mentioned.

He shouldn't bother with most capeshit, as most of it is just pure entertainment with little to no literary value, but I do think some chronological discussion is necessary (WWII-era comics, for example, were different in some very interesting ways, and often served as propaganda tools - "Slap a Jap" Supes), and there are some great books to be found in capeshit (Magneto Testament is one I consider to be under-appreciated, as it's a chilling depiction of the Holocaust through the eyes of a character we know from later in life, with zero superhero tropes).

>>78757973
If it's an 18 week class than you don't need that much superhero stuff, maybe three-four meetings would be enough.
>>
it was either this or teaching a class on the beats, which i'm sick of teaching even though I love kerouac and burroughs and ginsberg
>>
I'd let them read Y:The Last Man for the lesson about endings
>>
Gerber Howard the Duck would be a great fit for that class
>>
>>78742349
What about Flex Mentallo for Morrison? It's short but there's still a lot about it one could analyze
>>
Usagi Yojimbo by Stan Sakai. Preferably the Grass Cutter Arc.
>>
>>78741313
Tell us latter how was the class.
>>
>>78750798
>Max and Moritz
Oh god, that really fucked me up when I was a kid.
>>
>>78741313
Sandman, Doom Patrol and Whatchman.
>>
>>78741313
Animal Man Vol 1-3
And Arkham Asylum
>>
>>78742205
>Best stuff is ongoing

He has a lot of great one shots in Multiversity and a few in Vertigo and Scottish mags. New Adventures of Adolf Hitler and Zenith are pretty enjoyable as well..
>>
>>78742410
Pax and Ultra work better with the whole series. They are pretty amazing as single issues as well, but reading Multiversity as a omplete series shows a whole new meaning to the series.
>>
>>78753004

You're just making a "the sky is falling" argument.
>>
I feel a lot of you guys have a history-approach to the subject. But OPs asking for comics as literature which differs a lot. Most of the genre-stuff would then not qualify (or at least lose the USP).
Let's take Bone for instance. I love it beyond doubt and it is a great genre-masterwork of high fantasy mixed with the most basic cartoon characters. But it's not an example for a comic that can be seen as literature, although it certainly is a masterpiece and groundbreaking. But so was Neuromancer at its time and Asimovs works, still they're not the first thing that springs to mind when saying literature.
>>
>>78766345
Zenith is an ongoing.
The Filth is worth mentioning though.
>>
I could teach a 300 level course on heathcliff alone
>>
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All you cucks are idiots.

Take it from someone who actually studies graphic novels in academia:

1. Link it to other literary theories and don't just focus on capes. You have works like Mauss and Barefoot Gen you can easily link to trauma theory and holocaust lit.

2. If you want to do capeshit, do it academically. Considering the language in comics. Take a look at the theories of Scott McCloud and Peter Coogan. There are academics who have studied capeshit. Even Umberto fucking Ecco wrote on the moralizing and pedagogic value of heroes like Superman.

I did a dissertation on Superman so I know there is room for it in academia.
>>
>>78769494
Feel like sharing the dissertation? I'll most likely do my masters thesis on the narrative of the Rusty Brown ACME Novelty Library books and would like to read other /co/related academic works first.
>>
>>78741581
What the fuck are you even doing?

You can't just go DUR HUR LET'S LOOK AT 9 COMICS AND ACT LIKE IT'S LITERATURE

You have to think about it. Link it to higher literary theory and then use the comics to showcase what the medium can do to enhance the theory through its own unique characteristics.

Mauss is one of the oft-cited examples of Holocaust literature because it uses these characteristics in such a way that it goes beyond the usual trappings of the holocaust novel.

No one fucking cares about the history of comics and capeshit. It's the medium as an artform and how it gets used that breaks the wall between entertainment for kids and LITERATURE.

This is very basic shit for a literature expert. Are you even a PhD? You should know this.
>>
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>>78769788
I would, but I'm not allowed as the university is still considering it for possible publishing.

The work was on the iconicity of Superman and how he represented the ideal superhero according to most comic scholars. I then used Coogan's theory to define what makes a hero and showed various examples (like Injustice here) where writers undo Superman as a hero by playing with these characteristics.
>>
Can Ennis' War Stories and Battlefields count?
>>
>>78769038

You would have to define literature. Literature is deemed as something that should be read, and if something should be read is highly dependent on the worldview and aims of the person / society that makes a list of literature. For instance, I consider Illuminatus! to be literature and something everybody should have read at least once. Many would not share that opinion.

Bone could be literature, precisely because it is something that emerged against all odds. But again, it depends how the qualification to be literature is defined.
>>
>>78771776
>Literature is defined as something that should be read

You know nothing of literature. Here's a very basic definition of literature and it's still convoluted.

http://www.gyford.com/phil/writing/2007/05/07/literary_theory.php
>>
>>78770233
Drop a line on /co/ once the decision is made.
We'll either be able to read it when it's published, or after it gets turned down.
>>
>>78772109

I'm assuming this >>78770233 and this >>78769494 is you. You write like a pretentious dick.

I didn't say I know anything about literature. I said that as a contested concept it would have to be defined, before a syllabus is constructed. Which is precisely what your link says, by the way. But when the layman talks about literature, that is what he means. Thanks for reminding me that I know nothing about literature.
>>
>>78770233
Let me just say: If you're anything like Will Brooker, you're not helping anything or anyone, you're just a cancer that's hijacking entertainment for political agendas and I hate you for it.

If you're not like Will Brooker then good luck! I hope you get it published.
>>
>>78741313
scott McCloud - understanding comics
>>
>>78742517
Seconding this, but I would add Enigma (gender\queer studies angle is interesting). I might say no Vagabond、instead, something by Inio Asano like Nijigahara Holograph would be better.
>>
>>78742517
>>78775722
Also gonna say, knock off Cerebus. It's a classic that deserves attention but isn't it vol 2 out of print anyways? That's the only one that could easily be taught/studied.
Things like Incal are also laughable because who can buy an expensive hardcover like that for class? Or to the person suggesting the Epic recolors of Akira - how on earth could anyone even buy them readily? Unfortunately Enigma is OOP too so my own suggestion is ridiculous.

Nemo in Slumberland would be another great addition to the class, but the fact remains it would be difficult for students to have the 'study' material.
>>
>>78775944
>Unfortunately Enigma is OOP too
Uh, no?
>>
>>78775944
>isn't it vol 2 out of print anyways?
It got reprinted this year.
>>
>>78753004
>>78752699
...what? I live in Japan, none of this is true and it just sounds like you are trying to defend your lolicon preferences.

There are a variety of cultural reasons why manga has shifted but censorship is involved with the government and news, not really pop culture media like comics.

>>78776035
>>78776208
Woah, I've been away for a while. Glad to see both classics are back in circulation.

I would definitely consider them OP. And forget TDKR, if you're still leaning towards that. Life and Times of Martha Washington gives more room for political discussion.
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