>"This character is bad"
Bojack Horseman. A great character, but not really likable.
Severus Snape isn't heroic or likable, but his story is compelling.
Luke Skywalker is a whiny shit in A New Hope, but you still root for him because his story is compelling.
A character has to be compelling and likability is how most writers accomplish that, but they're not identical.
>"This show is bad"
>"The animation and designs are terrible"
>Yeah, but what about the writing and the characters?
>"I don't really watch cartoons for those things"
Even though this is /v/ related, I think it falls into the same category of "I am trying to sound like I know a thing about game/cartoon writing or design"
>Modern level design is bad!
>(goes on to talk about the old days, talks about DooM, Diablo, and overall just sidesteps the question)
>Ends post with a jab at CoD's level design
>"This show is bad"
>"The fanbase are autistic."
> I'd say it's autistic to say a character is bad because you don't like them as a person.
Yes. Exactly. We're all saying that likability doesn't necessarily make a character compelling. You're the one who assumed the opposite.
>"This show is bad."
>"This show is bad."
>"It's literally Reddit/Tumblr."
The fandom really can ruin a show for you. /sug/ is shit, and almost everyone online is a shit who talks about it. I watched the whole season before even meeting any place online talking about it, after that, it's hard to view the show the same way again. That's not to say I hate it now, but certain aspects are completely null and void when I used to probably think it was clever.
I'm not saying every Steven Universe fan is a fucking idiot, I'm obviously one, but the general census is yea, most of the online population that talks about it is cancer.
>inb4 i'm su scum
I just wish people could have given the show a chance before knowing anything about the fandom. Most fandoms can be cancerous anyway. And I know some people are going to say they saw some of it before meeting any fandom parts and they still think it was shit, and that's perfect by me, but honestly most people just look at the fandom and see what they obsess over = that show a shit
Well, I guess this show is actually OK then.
Don't start on that. I was in a sup.tv stream of it and shit happened. But that was pretty intense and that guy was a fucking ass and the only thing he got was a few punches and knocked to the ground.
There's a difference between "This character is a bad person" and "This character isn't fun to watch"
It's the same thing as when people call something "Mean Spirited". It's not that the characters are assholes, it's that the whole thing just feels uncomfortable to watch.
Strong Bad is a bad person but a likable character because he's an entertaining, over the top jerk, and is well written, thus fun to watch.
The cast of CatDog are all bad people, and yet they aren't fun to watch because they're nothing but miserable assholes all the time.
>"It's more than a kids show! It's so emotionally mature and the characters are so complex. The story touches on deep themes and gets very dark at times."
>watch the show
>it really is just a silly kids show with banal melodrama shoved in there
When people say that a show is Tumblr the show or Reddit the show, they are referring to the fact that it's a show that genuinely seems to be produced from the midnset of one of those sites' populations, which is bad.
It's actually a genuine fucking complaint and criticsm.
It's like Adam Ruins Everything.. It is literally college Reddit student makes a show.
He also got exactly what he wanted in the end, an extremely talented drummer.
I personally thought the movie was fucking fantastic, but I know /co/ would vehemently oppose it because the big mean guy got away with almost everything.
No, she wasn't well written at all. She was an asshole who thought she was perfect in every way. Had the show acknowledged this, she would be well written. But no, the show and in universe portrays her as totally in the right 100% of the time. It's like she's a writer self-insert or something, where they try to give her a flaw or two, but they forget to make it so she doesn't magically win every scenario she's put into.
>"This character is good."
>"He has a compelling backstory and motivation, as well as many intricately detailed relationships with other characters, which evolve in an arc as the story progresses, before ultimately culminating in a satisfying conclusion."
>This show is good
>because I can jack off to it
>She isnt good at speaking spanish
That doesn't stop her from winning awards constantly for no reason, or beating Hank at everything, or always being in the right (like that retarded episode where she claims that everyone stole original ideas from her, but then they magically make it so she's right about Randy Travis doing it)
>she's inept at math
And it's never addressed in the show.
Like I said, they tried giving her flaws, but they forgot the part of the show where the flaws actually impact her.
/co/ always talks about CatDog like it's postmortem Spongebob, where retards and assholes relentlessly beat on innocent characters and the innocents are treated like they deserve everything they get, but it is the exact opposite of that. Every episode ends with these miserable assholes getting their comeuppance.
It isn't meanspirited. You're just overly sensitive.
He works perfectly as a part of the story, but Joffrey himself isn't that interesting because he's too emotionally shallow. He's just a simple sadist, which is fitting, but I dunno if he shows the mastery of the writers. Anyone can write a character who is terrible and does terrible things and make us hate him. (He might have more depth in the books, but I haven't read them so I dunno.)
Probably a better example of a terrible but well-written character in TV is Tony Soprano. He's a violent sociopath and narcisist, but his character has a lot of depth to him so we find him interesting. Also, he's intelligent and can get inrospective at times, which are traits that are harder to write in a character than simple brutality.
>This comic/cape movie is bad
>Because it's dark/violent/edgy and capeshit should always be lighhearted and funny
>"I don't like this character."
That's where I typically go. I like my protagonists to not be unlikable bastards. I suppose it's why I don't like most of Ellis's work.
A protagonist is supposed to be likable. When the protagonist is not likable, you end up with Legend of Korra. Korra's only likable trait is her body, and Bojack is not fuckable, hence he has no redeeming qualities at all. Despite the drama and "feels" of your shitty series, I'm not interested.
You're a stupid mother fucker who thinks he's a smart mother tucker
But being smart or stupid isn't the real issue here, the real issue is that you're. Mother fucker and you should stop that
What the fuck are you talking about? Probably half of episodes end with the Greasers beating the shit out of CatDog, oftentimes after they had just helped them.
Did you even fucking watch that show? Even the fucking Christmas special ended with them getting beaten up.
>"This character is good"
>"Because of [shit that didn't actually happen]."
It's entertaining listening to the bullshit that fans make up to justify liking a character. 9 out of 10 times the "compelling backstory" was some crappy fan theory they got off a clickbait video, or it's interpreting what little motivation the character has into something far grander than what it really is.
>"This episode is bad."
>"No it isn't, it's a parody."
You've never seen someone hate something using reasoning that's objectively untrue? Fuck, somebody in this very thread says that Peggy Hill never gets shown to be wrong, when she frequently does.
>could someone recommend me a show
>sure. I watched xxx and it was good
>popular opinion held off 4chan
I refuse to believe anybody actually liked that geeky faggot's performance. He didn't emote even slightly outside of DiCaprio-tier "I'm angry and yelling now" shit, and he wasn't the threat the movie desperately needed (and yes it did one; if they're copying a New Hope, Darth Vader's antagonist role is beyond mandatory.)
The scene between him and Harrison Ford was painful because we actually saw Ford emote believably for the first time in ten years, and this big-nose kike couldn't even meet him half way.
>writer writes a despicable character or scene
>so it must mean the writer is automatically a misogynistic nazi and personally shares all the character's qualities or condones a certain type of behaviour from the comic/show
>He didn't emote even slightly outside of DiCaprio-tier "I'm angry and yelling now" shit
>comparing Driver to Craprio
>thinking attempting to ape a cinematic legend for "muh tension" is even remotely a good idea
Go jerk off to Darth Maul some more.
>"Is this show good?"
>"No, but it has good waifus."
>praise any nuMarvel movie besides Iron Man/The Force Awakens
I felt bad for the guy because he was probably a repressed homosexual who never had, nor will ever have, inner peace.
dio is a terrible character
but i like his dumb fucking abilities
nothing beats diamond is unbreakable. such an oddball ability defeating something that seems so invincible. seriously, this was the only time i enjoyed the series
The best thing about Jojo is the crazy ways they defeat characters with such broken abilities. Any other manga/anime it'd just be "Let's hit him until he dies".
This is the exact reason why I hated the final battle against DIO. Jotaro just punches him so hard that he explodes? Lame.
>A protagonist is supposed to be likable. When the protagonist is not likable, you end up with Legend of Korra
you're getting mixed up here.
you're confusing subjective with objective. A character can be objectively unlikable
but written correctly, you can like him for that reason.
Case in point, Spider Jerusalem of Transmetropolitan.
He's by no means a like-able person, but you can't help but love him.
Characters can be assholes and unlikable pieces of shit, but if there's nothing redeeming about what they do and say then they're a bad character.
something has to give.
>Not supporting racism against anyone not white on a board that is NOT for hating non white people.
>being surprised when people tell you to go back to /pol/
> complaining about unoriginality is retarded
Hurrrrrrr. I guess i'd better get with this modern Hollywood style of creativity.
> they are nothing alike
> red lightsaber and black cloak and mask like you said
> powerful in the the force
> betrayed their former master for the Dark Side
> had conflict inside of them between the light side of the force and the dark side, triggered by a family member
> try to get a jedi to join up with them
> both angry and have low patience
> both are guided by a shadowy Sith figure
Unlikable character that is good: BoJack Horseman
Unlikable character that is bad: Peter Griffin
My roommate would defend Family Guy to his dying breath, but hated BoJack because he wasn't "funny" like Peter. I can't put enough quotations around funny, so I won't try
>he was probably a repressed homosexual who never had, nor will ever have, inner peace.
lol wrong movie m8
>this character is unlikable
>but they are one of the most drawn, written, and talked about characters in the fandom
>yeah but they [interfere with a ship/upstaged my waifu/had a funny scene i took too seriously/those fans are all pedophiles]
who is she /co/ ?
>guy brings up a valid argument
>HAVE YOU EVEN WATCHED IT???
>shitty ebin reaction face shitpost
No, really I need to know, why the fuck do you guys like this show? I get Bojack is supposed to be unlikable, but the fact that you retards sympathize with him is where you guys lose me. Not to mention Princess Carolyn who is equally as shitty, if not more, but she's NEVER been given her well deserved comeuppance (at least not like bojack has).
Go ahead, fucking tell me why you like this guy so damn much.
Movies and TV in general are a visual medium you autist. This isn't fucking radio. Animation is style of medium that can tell different stories better. Like how stop-motion is better for scary worlds because the way puppets move is unsettling.
>everything has to be vanilla and nice and healthy
>you should only like wholesome things and characters you'd actually want to friends with irl
>no chanllenging or uncomfortable or thought-provoking content ever, someone might get offended so everything has to be super safe and fluffy nice and only happiness is allowed
>or else we'll fucking harass you to death
What the hell is wrong with today's youth
>decent movie at best
>everyone acts like its the second coming
Cersei and Joffrey from Game of Thrones; total assholes but especially Cersei is a joy to read / watch because she fucks everything up so spectacularly. Same with Roose Bolton even though he doesn't get so much attention.
I also like Prince Hans from Frozen, who I is very interesting and realistic despite being a tremendous asshole and doing bad things.
A good story benefits from a well-written asshole character one can hate, or even an antihero main character who's a bit of a dick. Scarlett O'Hara from Gone With the Wind for example is a massive bitch and that's partly why the story is interesting. Don Draper from Mad Men for example is also a massive asshole. Alonzo Harris from the movie Training Day is a great character even though he's a horrible person and a total cunt.
Hans Landa from Inglorious Basterds is also a character who is good for the story even though they are a dreadful person.
You should consider moving beyond popular accessible crap and realize shows like eva and characters like shinji are just above average. Theres a whole world of animation beyond it.
I really fucking hated Poe's snarkiness, it didn't fit the series well in the least bit. You can introduce modern elements into a series without having to resort to cheap "haha we're acting silly" humor.
But Spider Jerusalem is likeable. He's an asshole, for sure, but he has sympathetic qualities and a sort of code, and he's pretty funny to listen to. Even when he's being a bastard, it's generally so over the top that it just comes off as funny.
I've come to realize that being "tumblr" simply means pandering, for instance, changing a character's race/sexyality/gender/whatever to appease a small minority. So in a way "being tumblr" makes sense... Barely.
Being "Reddit" on the other hand simply means "I don't like this show because it's popular and I'm a contrarian hipster faggot who can't come up with an actual reason not to like the show."
I don't have to "like" the character, but I at least have to care about them, if that makes sense. Otherwise why watch the show. It's what happened with Korra. The character, at the very least, needs to not make people what to claws their eyes out
>characters need to morally likable or agreeable to be considered "likable"
Yes, he's not just some generic "big bad guy" but the show goes out of it's way to show that he's a horrible psychopath. You love to hate him.
"he's a horrible psychopath"
He's a villain with a huge ego. He was once dubbed the strongest being in the galaxy aside from Beerus and the mere mention of his name made grown men wet their pants. Couple that with his raw natural talent, you've got a guy who was literally born great.
When he's revived he doesn't rebuild his empire, he sets out to kill the guy who killed him because he'll be damned if some fucking monkey is stronger than him
And its funny, if Freiza had put more effort into training he would have been stronger than both Vegata and Goku
He's well written and each character is a foil to bojack's shitty life choices. PC has done nothing wrong, btw. Not that guy you're responding to, nor do I sympathize with bojack.
Little off topic, but I've struggled with social anxiety to the same level as her for most of my life and I thought the show was hilarious, almost kind of cathartic, probably was for the creator too because her portrayal is surprisingly accurate. Here's a quote from the article:
>It's just reveling in the pain of a mentally ill person—laughing at a girl who is even more awkward than they were in order to feel better about their own lives.
Watch the scenes in the Freeza saga where he impales Krillin and brutally tortures Vegeta. He's clearly enjoying himself way too much, almost in a sexual way. I don't really disagree with what you said but there's no denying he's a psycho.
He shattered Dio's stand. There really was no other way to survive that standoff. It's was pretty much his only chance to beat Dio
Jotaro already outwitted him when it came to escaping the road roller and turning Dio's own time stopping against him. Jotaro already won, and only let Dio take another shot out of honor.
As for the showdown, I took that as Dio being undone by his own pride. Dio was so blinded by arrogance that he madly kicked at Jotaro with his already damaged leg while thinking that no Joestar could ever best him. It seemed like a fitting end for me.
Dio's major flaw is his anger getting the better of him in contrast of Jonathan's anger pushing him forward. Dio having a shit fit and blowing eveything he worked for is in character for him.
I don't know why Jotaro is rival though. Even in Eyes Over Heaven, only Jotaro can beat the godly Purple Dio by himself.
That or Part IV. Still have to read Part VII, though, looking forward to that.
>"I hate this character"
>"He's mean and did bad things to my favorite characters"
Fucking dumbass the antagonist's job is to antagonize. If they do a good job at that then they are in fact a good character. A bad antagonist would be horrible at agonizing so it only makes sense it works the other way too.
I want you to read that post back to yourself and have a good hard think about what kind of person you are.
>The fandom really can ruin a show for you.
If you let them, sure. Eventually you stop caring, possibly even appreciating them.
I like Tron:Legacy and Undertale, but only one of them is getting fan-made content on a regular basis.
I like Steven Universe and I love cheesy melodrama as long as it's done well. I don't know why so many people who watch SU want the show to be some deepestlore type thing. The show works best when it's doing some cutesy shit.
>I like this character more/ that character sucks because _____ is better
> characters immediately try the mcguffins
> they fail
> have to actually fix the problem
> negotiations fail
> have to fight mindless violence with mindless violence
> important plot points focused because of lol toy sales
> they manage to make an entertaining arc out of it anyway
canter wedding was nice.
His life is stuck in a trap caused by his own choices and he doesn't know how to get out. And it's basically fucking perfectly pulled off. It's not contrived at any point, you can see how he wants things to go well, but then through his effoorts, he plausibly makes things worse.
Then he gets miserable and fucks some random girl he met at a bar to try and fill the void in his life.
Bojack is one of the most real characters there is and he's a fucking talking cartoon horse.
>A good character should be likable
>A good character should be relatable
>A good character should be sympathetic