>>78604960 >I don't think he's drawn the strip for a few years now.
Anon. I know you bring this up every thread as a defense mechanism. I understand that we all don't want his art to have gone to shit. But after he started to draw "wavy" teeth in 2009 the whole thing slowly fell apart. He idolizes people like Kate Beaton who have very fluid approaches to consistency and character drawing. But he doesn't know how to replicate it like he could when he was aping Stephen silver. I assume he feels that this is his maturation into a true individual artist. But it's simply painful to look at and I had to stop reading last year.
>>78604739 >Undertale is the New Game You Have To Like Or You Don’t Get It. These sanctified vessels are selected by an organization that is either lofty or subterranean, I haven’t decided, and one of the cool things about being old is that I don’t care.
>These hyper-earnest teens I got on my block are way into this stuff. I’m glad that someone is teaching them new words. But I can sense a kind of invisible maze go up when they start this conversation - they want to know if I can be trusted. If I’m like the others. They want to know if they can tell me the secret, and they will, provided I already know it. So I lied. I lied and lied and lied.
>There is a popular mode now I have taken to calling Double Reverse Irony, where things are real but not real but no they’re actually real, that is just one step beyond where I’m interested. My policy when the next generation “does them” is informed by 2pac’s I Ain’t Mad At Cha, and I only get mad when people transform works into litmus tests. In the case of Undertale, I can’t abstract it enough to even look at it: I can’t hold it far enough away. The thing it is dismantling is too close to me.
>>78605561 >Parody can be revelatory of weakness in the subject, but it can also reveal strength; it can reveal what’s left after the softest parts are washed away. Even when done in love, it has a caustic quality. An extended look at metals extraction probably isn’t appropriate for this paragraph, but I’m thinking about gold cyanidation and toxicity. The game is gleeful in its cannibalism of the medium, there’s blood all over its face but it’s smiling. It’s intimate with the tropes it has on display, and at this precise moment in time I’m discomfited by what it does with that familiarity.
>It is insufficiently reverent, and does not perform the proper obeisances. Others like it for precisely these reasons. I’m delighted by the iconoclasm intellectually and repulsed by it viscerally; if nothing else, it’s providing an intense psychological workout.
I've always loved it. But then I used to be a writing tutor; and I think I'm perceiving what you're calling pretentious as "clever." But I know lots of people hate reading his news posts. So I may be in the minority.
>>78605602 Yep I hate when people write like that when they can just express the same opinion in a simple way without resorting to going around in circles and just making useless comparisons that mean nothing in the end.
All that shit he wrote just to say that he doesn’t get Undertale and the kids hold it as some sort of sacred flawless game and that he humors them when they talk to him about it when in reality he doesn’t care to hear them.
Also the part of getting angry about the kids transforming it into a litmus test, that's peetty much nerd culture as a whole and it has been that way for awhile. You tell a nerd that likes a particular type of game, story, show, or genre that you're not a fan of something popular from their interests or something that is considered sacred and they turn on you.
Like mention how shit you thought Watchmen was to other comic readers and they will get upset.
>>78605602 I like his writing, but only in the same way I like Scott Adams's writing - it's fun to read, but I'd never take it as a serious opinion.
>>78605715 It's not much of a morality system. It's basically that either you save everyone or you kill everyone, and the writing changes depending on which you go for. Or you could kill some of them, but that's basically the same as saving everyone but where you can't play the last chapter.
>>78606747 Welcome to /co/. Everyone has opinions, and if someone has a different opinion to you, they must be idiots. The only actual 'wrong' opinion here is saying you love Undertale but never playing Earthbound 2.
>>78606952 >/co/ has pretty much been /v/ for a couple of years now
No it hasn't. /co/ isn't that far removed from what it has always been. It's the only one of seven or so boards I visit that hasn't become shit. People here love comics and cartoons. There are stupid arguments. But it's pretty rare for everyone to get together and hate something almost universally.
What happened to his art is he's actually making an effort again. I will grant that the strip itself seems to have "outgrown" punchlines and given way to some strange, meandering, unfunny slice-of-life horseshit in their place, but I really don't understand when people criticize Mike's current art. The art from the "Penny Arcade is actually funny" years was so stiff and boring.
>>78608583 The comic's been an afterthought for years, and they seem to want to do more with the Penny Arcade Experience but aren't creative enough. They've tried to get various tabletop game projects up and running, and their "serious" story projects are wafer thin.
>Noir + Robots, your mind has been blown. >Boy scouts ala D&D Rangers, and Girl Scouts as, like dryads or something. >The monsters under your kids bed are real, and only Us Parents are awesome enough to see them and take them out.
>>78605715 Undertale is pretty much an RPG. Each monster turn they "attack" which plays out like a bullet hell minigame. You can choose to attack and kill them (which levels you up and makes you stronger) or find ways to peacefully solve the situation and spare them (which doesnt give you xp and as such makes the game a little bit harder to survive in the end). Its over hyped but still pretty fun in the end. It follows the classic fate of being popular on /v/, then being picked up by everyone else, which in turn leads to shitposting and /v/ bashing it. Also lesbians and shit like that in the game leads to tumblr going crazy with it which turns a bunch of people off. It and Lisa are pretty much worth a try/pirate though.
In the end I never really get these "im old" sort of situations. I have my tastes which may or may not be catered too, and as time goes on I find new things to like or hate. I don't break down and go "THATS NOT EVEN A GAME MAN!". I may roll my eyes and some things that become popular but thats about it.
>>78608943 I can see it, Stanley Parable is much more artsy kind of game; it's walking while a voice just goes on these tangents along with set piece moments he can easily find the deeper meaning in. Undertale is more of a straight forward game with it's underlying message woven into character interaction and gameplay mechanic that you can either reflect on for a deeper meaning or just enjoy it as is
I feel like it mostly touts itself as an RPG, but the fact that you can get through the game without killing anything at all makes me feel like people should focus more on the bullet hell aspect when trying to sell it to people.
Or not. I mean, the fact that you can make that choice kind of defines the R in RPG, better than a lot of video game RPGs do anyway.
The story isn't outstanding, but it is quirky and has some great moments, and I like how it plays with your expectations, both in the combat system and in the story line.
Point is... I don't agree with Tycho, but he is entitled to his old man opinion.
>>78608943 When you strip away all of the character/story/whatever that people praise about Undertale, you are still left with a fun and challenging game to play. You can't do that with The Stanley Parable, because the story and dialogue is literally the entire experience, unless you somehow have fun pressing the forward button on your keyboard for 30 minutes straight.
>>78605621 It's gimmick has already been done before and in better narratives. The game's claim to fame is it's characters, but if you don't like them you're pretty much fucked as far as enjoyment goes since they're trying to be quirky. People think the dev tried too hard while doing this.
The concept of your own actions while playing the game having a hand in the story have already been done before in games like Hotline Miami or Deus Ex, and arguably better because those games have other themes that connect with the "player-choice" aspect of their own stories. People call Undertale pretentious since the separation of the morality system from the main themes is like night and day. Fox presents interesting ideas but doesn't really work on them as much as he should've.
>>78609876 No, spec ops is about forcing you to do things and then bitching at you for doing them even though you had no other choice. And don't give me that bullshit about "turning off the game" being a choice.
>>78609876 no, it's Undertale's as well. At least genocide path is. Genocide is grinding to kill every last monster you can; you get a counter to keep track and encounter rates drop to really make you grind it out to get that ending. You even face much harder bosses in order to complete the genocide ending and the game knows you're doing it just because it's an option and calls you out on it. In Spec Ops there's no option to stop the mission, call base or walk back before going in, you either go forward and play the only path the game gives you or not play. In Undertale, you do it because you want to do it
>>78609876 Sort of. Spec ops does it hamfistedly as fuck. If you don't give players nonlethal conflict resolution, telling them they're bad people is dumb as fuck, you didnt give them a choice. Saying "Oh, just turn off the game!" isnt acceptable, because now you've made your point by making an awful game instead of a good one.
I enjoyed Spec Ops but its about as subtle as a brick to the testicles and the message is lost once you realize you had no other options. Undertale even states that you're not even evil at the end of Genocide, you're just doing it because you can.
>>78610000 >the message is lost once you realize you had no other options I don't really see it that way. It's not about "why did you decide to murder those civilians", it's about "if you think about it, it's a little weird that we play games about war". The point is not that you decided to burn a couple of polygon people to their death states, it's to rub your nose in the fact that war kind of sucks. There's probably a lot of COD kiddies out there who could use a dose of that.
>>78609645 But in Hotline Miami there aren't any choices to make. It's big twist story wise is basically telling you that there's no justification for your actions, you're just doing it because it's fun.
>>78610091 Pretty much, I think Spec Ops: The Line's point was to make you think about games like Call of Duty where you do fucked up shit without a second's hesitation. The infamous white phosphorous scene was lifted from those types of games, only The Line subverted it by forcing you to walk through the havoc you caused, whereas other games give you a high five and move on to the next mission. The goal of the game wasn't "why did you make this choice, you're such a bad person" but more like "this is the kind of shit that the kids love to play, isn't that weird when you think about it?"
>undertale >go out of your way to befriend people who actively tried to kill you to get the good ending >no you see the fish lady is actually quirky and fun so that makes to fact that shes a child killer a-ok!
its kind of bullshit how the game gives you the option to SPARE people when it was never you the one who started the fight. and if you dont spare them they keep fighting you so is not like they are at your mercy and you are just letting them go.
in fact it gets worse with toriel, how the fuck are you "sparing" someone who insists on attacking you? how do you do the sparing?
>>78609806 >Undertale's shtick is all about the meta of what a videogame is and why we play them, those two games have fucking nothing to do with it. Hotline Miami was also about that albeit not like what >>78609645 is saying. Hotline Miami real ending was basically a "fuck you what were you expecting" involving the plot of the game and was mostly about how you shouldn't overthink it and have fun bashing peoples brains cause it's a game.
>>78610280 Are you sure that the thing you call the good ending is also what you would consider the good ending? I mean, it does end with monsters invading the surface. Maybe you should just go ahead, kill Undyne, Asgore and Flowey and walk the fuck away for your best end.
>>78610280 It's almost like their entire society has been trapped in isolation for centuries, and that humans were genuinely a bunch of fucks to them on multiple occasions.
When you're raised in a society that tells you that humans are nothing but pure evil, and that in some cases children have killed monsters (See the dusty ballerina gear), that maybe them wanting to kill a child would be reasonable.
>>78610343 Pay attention to the way most enemies "attack" you. Almost all of them aren't actively fighting you, they are just doing what they normally do or are even being friendly. The dogs just want to play, Aaron is just showing off his muscles, Woshua wants to clean you, etc.
also the morality system becomes too gamey at the end, you are not doing things because they are "right" you are doing them because those are the game mechanincs to get that ending. nobody who spared flowey at the end did so from the kindness of their hearts, they did it because they knew that was the only way to get the pacifist ending
>>78610375 I do like that if you go through all the levels a collect little magic pixels the game's ending essentially goes "fine, you want a story. Here, have a fucking hollow throw away line about political intrigue or whatever, fucking nerd"
>First time playing >Obvious moral system so decide to do pacifist run first >Goat Mom fights you >Mercy does shit >Decide to fight her and have her health low enough to Mercy >600 damage out of nowhere >Fuck up pacifist run .Decide to Mercy everyone else to see if it changes anything >Not really >Game tells me to replay the game exactly as how I played it but not fuck up Goat Mom this time I enjoyed the game quite a lot but fucking hell.
>>78610399 but that is not how real life works, the game is clearly a morality lesson, but the morals are too mechanized and unintuitive. there is no option to just tell the character "i know you dont mean to but you are hurting me so please stop" the only option to end an encounter is to spare them and that is nonsensical
>>78610395 it still should reward befriending the people who tried to kill you, that is a terrible lesson
>>78610517 Undertale is not a morality lesson. Both Flowey and Sans tell you that you're not doing what you're doing because of good or evil. Flowey knows that you'll make everyone happy for the sake of a perfect ending, and sans knows you're just genociding to see how far the rabbit hole goes.
Even on neutral, when he judges you, he will only truly be pissed off at you if you kill Papyrus. He'll even ask you if you think people with special abilities have the obligation to do what's "right". If you say no, he'll accept that as your opinion.
>>78610644 if i am to take the question seriously: undyne, mettaton, flowey and muffet. as for the various random encounters i cant remember right now. but that is not my point, my point is that the game is too abstract and doesnt properly reflect the realities of diplomacy, it ends up conveying a fucked up lesson about always turning the other cheek
I find it strange how people on chanboards keep on applying AAA game standards to indy games.
A shitload of Undertale criticism seems like nitpicky shit. Sure, Undertale is overrated as fuck and has a fanbase that is as spergy as fanbases get, but it's still a crazy feat for a single person making his first game ever.
>>78610613 That's what i thought to myself too. "Killing your mom accidental then vowing to never kill myself" makes for a great plot that I unintentionally made myself. The problem is the game later expecting me to replay and recreate nearly exactly as how I played before.
>>78610625 I always laugh at ridiculous neckbeards who think that they're superman or something and can just shrug off punches from a grown man. You don't "walk away" from a fight. You either run or fight back or get beat the fuck down.
i played it with the mindset "lets see the new homestuck, the new piece of crap tumblr is raging about these days"
but its actually pretty fun. Snarky writing, humor and characters reminiscent of classics like Paper Mario (my fave game) and Mario&Luigi. Art style similar to j-indie games like Yume Nikki. The gameplay (morality choices and bullet hell turns) is fresh for an rpg.
the only thing i can see someone hating is that undertale makes lots of meta commentary on anime, otaku, and fujoshi, which could be annoying at times.
the point where i disliked undertale the most was before I gave it a chance. so i assume nobody who detests it has given it a chance
>>78610625 Except frisk is inhumanly durable and genuinely can outlast people. Also, sparing doesnt work on Undyne, a soldier attempting to kill you. You have to run, so that point is very much brought up especially with Asgore.
>>78610868 There are going to be people who will be severely bothered by all of these: >Snarky writing, humor FUCKING WHEDON >Art style similar to j-indie games like Yume Nikki FUCKING GAME MAKER >meta commentary on anime, otaku, and fujoshi FUCKING MEME GAME >undyne, alphys FUCKING TUMBLR
>>78610816 If you don't give her the water, then she never learns to get over her hatred for humans. She never learns that not all humans are bad. Even if she doesn't die, denying her that lesson is objectively an evil thing to do. And then you get a neutral ending because you reap what you sow.
>>78610107 I think it's a good idea for a mindfuck. Player characters' actions don't really make sense within the game universe. They just do things random people tell them, never decide on their own, almost never turn them down no matter who they are.
For a real person this behaviour doesn't make any sense. But real people are not stuck in the same place in the same state of affairs forever until they comply.
>>78610719 >but it's still a crazy feat for a single person making his first game ever. But it wasn't made by a single person, the art was done by a different person (the person who self inserted as hOI I'M MEMEY)
Somehow, despite having a dedicated artist, it still has some of the fucking ugliest sprite art in years
>>78610507 You're supposed to load your old save when you kill her because you feel bad. That way Flowey can show up and call you out on your bullshit, foreshadowing the whole SAVE mechanic as being an important plot element.
>>78610968 >>78611146 >>78611199 >>78611210 >"What is he saying here?" >Double Reverse Irony >I’m delighted by the iconoclasm intellectually and repulsed by it viscerally; if nothing else, it’s providing an intense psychological workout. Am I the only one with basic reading comprehension skills? Are you triggered by the fact that he wrote WHOLE PARAGRAPHS instead of quips? I know we all love quippy bullshit around here...
The game is at once ashamed of what it is, and proud of what it is. It treats you like an asshole for having the expectations it NEEDS you to have. It's "Double Reverse Irony." He sees its popularity with "the kids" as emblematic of a greater cultural trend towards deconstruction and celebration existing at once in a work of art, like a party that calls the cops on itself.
>"Too many words." So, are we advocating for Newspeak? Just, remove all those icky, polysyllabic words and boil everything down to grunts and body language?
I find it funny that Penny Arcade just willfully throws itself into some bad stereotype. There are tons of people their age or older, kids or not, who have played the game and 'got' it. Dude is stuck so far up his own pasty ass he can't even play a game and just let it be a game anymore. That's seriously out of touch.
>Undertale is a deconstruction of RPGs, but it's too mean-spirited. It persistently mocks RPG tropes and punishes the player for following them, but doesn't show proper respect and homages to the games it deconstructs. On an intellectual level, this pleases me, but viscerally, I am upset by the mean-spiritedness of it. Ultimately, it's the children who are wrong. Am I any good at deciphering pretentious-speak? I can see myself agreeing with his point. Undertale's writing can get a little obnoxious with how ":^)" it constantly is.
>>78610719 >people keep on applying AAA standards to Undertale This so much. Especially considering how the chan actually liked stuff like Space Funeral or LISA.
>>78611296 Temmie only made a handful of static art like the Snowdin shopkeeper and the intro sequence, and it shows. Most of the actual in-game art was made by Toby himself.
>>78611633 >deconstruction 100,000% into the trash it goes. The only good deconstruction to ever exist was Watchmen and every single other one that has ever come into being has been garbage, without exception.
>>78605561 >>78605580 "I hate how people treat some games like a subculture. Undertale is too deep into parody to be enjoyed by itself. I appreciate it for what it is but I can't possibly like it. Also by being needlessly verbose I make my opinions sound much more valid and mature. It's so cool being so grown up that I don't care about anything the little kids do. Those dumb kids. I write a webcomic about gaming where the central joke is now that I'm too old and jaded to enjoy gaming."
Undertale was a mistake. All the fun I had playing it isn't worth retards like him and others dissecting it.
>the talent and attention to detail he pours into each game is awe inspiring. Which doesn't matter if he makes fourth wall jokes and "meta" humor. That's why people discard any effort or work put into Undertale, am I right?
Again, you can't hold a double standard and expect me not to point it out.
>>78605105 It's especially confusing since it's roughly based on Earthbound's style of gameplay. Tons of 16-bit RPGs that weren't made by Square were essentially the same thing. So hard to understand for a longtime gamer, somehow.
>>78605659 It's more of him trying to be clever and failing at it especially since he makes unecessary comparisons and uses wordswordswords to express a simple opinion while trying to be flashy and showy
It's pretty much what these anons are saying >>78605956 >>78606269 >>78606303 He feels like he's the smart guy and therefore tries to sound smart in his writing but doesn’t get to the point fast and he doesn’t particularly do it in a clever way eitheir.
So yeah I agree with the anon that said it sounded pretentious.
>>78611459 >>78611578 You ever feel like it's unfair to assume that everyone who disliked Undertale must also like jerking off to Bayonetta?
I can't remember when I grew out of this rhetorical habit but I feel like it was some time in early adulthood. If you're trolling fine, but if you really think you're making a good argument then I want you to know you aren't and you're annoying.
>>78610975 >denying her that lesson is objectively an evil thing to do. Why the fuck is that our job, though? They're the fucking ones with the problem and were actively taking it out on us. Why the fuck are we obligated to teach them not to be a cunt?
>>78612682 I don't think that part is a morality lesson. That was part of the time travel thing, where if you don't give the water, Undyne isn't feeling well enough to write a love letter and you won't convince Alphys not to kill herself. Several sections of the game are like that, where you have to do minor but obvious things, and if you skip them you don't get the game's "good" ending.
The game itself can be a love it or hate it thing. People have tastes all over the board. The medium which things are enjoyed can vary a lot. What makes something good and what makes something bad is mostly opinion. Even massively shared opinions can be wrong. Speak one way or the other and you spread it either positively or negatively. Either way you spread it. Find things you like and stick to that. Wall up your world.
>>78612817 But you don't. Maybe you know like one or two guys and otherwise you're riding high on what we call a "confirmation bias".
I know people thirty years my senior who never stop doing stuff like that, so if you're young enough to learn, stop. Stop it now. Learn to argue logic rather than about peoples' moral character. You'll do yourself a favor when you realize you change minds by fundamentally agreeing with someone's point of view and showing them why your way is more helpful to them, not by bashing them and accusing them of disliking a game because "they just want to jack off."
>But you don't. Maybe you know like one or two guys and otherwise you're riding high on what we call a "confirmation bias". That's why I always take things on a case-by-case basis. I ask anyone I'm talking to if they hold those standards, thus the disclaimer at the bottom.
The people who don't hold those standards can look at the image and say "I'm not a hypocrite, so this image doesn't apply to me. Hooray."
It's the people who try and think up some argument based on flawed semantics to justify the double standard, like "oh, but Renamon and Isabelle are teh hotness! Toriel is old and stupid!" or some strawman like that. That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.
I guess the point I'm making is this: you can hate Undertale, but it has to be for the right reasons, ones which you won't immediately forget should another game have the same problems.
>>78612963 No, listen. The disclaimer does nothing. All you've done is put together an image macro meant to insult people who dislike Undertale.
I actually like the game, but I think you're being a cunt. The game isn't perfect. It's short, Toriel getting killed was frustrating to a lot of people, some people didn't think the puns were that cute, some people didn't want to be friends with Undyne, some people found Alphys obnoxious, some people are disappointed we're never going to get gratification with this Gaster thing.
Nobody is going to see your image macro and have some kind of epiphany and say, "Oh no, he's right. Deep down I know he's right!"
They're going to say, "Wow, what an asshole," and maybe you'll get an angry response unless that person also assumes you're trolling for laughs. Nothing you're doing is tailored to do anything other than annoy people and drive them away from consensus with your opinion or the notion that Undertale's fandom is terrible if they already think it's terrible.
>All you've done is put together an image macro meant to insult people who dislike Undertale. I don't see any insults, nor do I see anything that says you're not allowed to dislike Undertale.
>(list of complaints) See, I have no problem with you listing things you didn't like. That's perfectly fine. Never once do I imply that the game is perfect, or immune to criticism.
>Nobody is going to see your image macro and have some kind of epiphany and say, "Oh no, he's right. Deep down I know he's right!" Nobody should need that epiphany. We should all know that holding double standards is one step below shitposting, and it doesn't have a place in 4chan if you ask me. You could hate Undertale like it was the devil itself, and I wouldn't bat an eye.
>hurrr yu're an undertale fan Please stop assuming this. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but you're trying to paint me as an opponent that you can knock down. Unfortunately, I won't have any of it. I consider Undertale average and I don't think it's amazing or GOTY material or anything of the sort. So please, stop grouping me into a bunch of people that you already dislike. I just want to have a meaningful, shitpost-free conversation regarding standards.
>you hate undertale because (reasons)? That's cool. >you hate Undertale because (reasons) but you never hate any other game if they're guilty of (same reasons)? Your opinion is faulty and holds no weight.
>>78610975 is ridiculous to expect a child to have that level of compassion for a murderer that is chasing him down, if someone is chasing you triying to kill you you dont look back when he trips to the ground, you keep fucking running
>>78613678 Wrong. If I did hate Undertale, I just hate it. Maybe if you ask a logical reason from me I might tell you something. That thing I tell you might be wrong. Or maybe it's true and I just don't like the way Undertale did that thing. Maybe I disliked something else about Undertale and it made feel inclined to be hard on anything else.
Bottom line. If I hate something, I hate that thing. Fuck you for making it about my penis. My penis never did anything to you and it never will.
Last post didn't come out right. Let me put it this way:
I don't see why you'd consider the image to be "shitposting". All it does is call out blatant double standards, nothing more. There's no personal attacks, there's no elitism, there's no insults, racism, swearing, or anything of the sort. It's a simple logical conclusion based around trends I've seen on /v/ and /co/. You say that if you hated some things that Undertale did, that's fine. Regarding that, all I ask is for some honesty, a little clarity, and fairness in your observation. If you hate Undertale for having furries for example, then you can't like anything that has furries if you operate by the same logic. Why would you?
I'm trying to stop people from arguing flawed and biased semantics. I'm not trying to dictate what people can and cannot like, as long as they're reasonable about it.
>Fuck you for making it about my penis. My penis never did anything to you and it never will. People's penises often demand that shows throw out character development for sexy fanservice. Video games have to have gameplay removed and/or massive segments dedicated to looking at naked women and tits and asses. And you know what, it doesn't belong in the medium. If I'm playing a hack and slash, I do not want to see cutscenes every 5 minutes, and I don't even want to be hassled to skip them. They shouldn't be there in the first place.
I'll use a more /co/ related example to emphasize my point: I hate cartoons that try to push emotional junk to such a degree that it takes over the show. That's why you won't see me defending Steven Universe as a great show. At best it's also average like Undertale. I just want something that exercises moderation in its execution.
/co/ us pretty much the same as it always was. You have half a board that is pretty much 4channers and half that are holier than thou douche bags. Despite the two we ate probably the most morally sound bored when it comes to either side.
>>78614436 I think overstated is more the word you're looking for.
And it is, because fans of just about every game are really, really bad at stating why they like the game.
I enjoyed Undertale because it had fun, quirky (I fucking hate that word, but that's what they were) characters surrounded by a meta-narrative that let you both be in control of your actions entirely while also throwing in fun things like the characters knowing you've reloaded the game or being aware of your meta abilities.
Not particularly deep, but rather amusing. The "deepest" point to the game was that just because you have the option to do something doesn't mean you HAVE to do something, which is honestly more of a meta statement on people who play a game over and over to do literally everything there is to do in every way there is to do it.
>>78611242 >Player characters' actions don't really make sense within the game universe. They just do things random people tell them, never decide on their own, almost never turn them down no matter who they are.
>For a real person this behaviour doesn't make any sense. But real people are not stuck in the same place in the same state of affairs forever until they comply.
>>78614617 >just because you have the option to do something doesn't mean you HAVE to do something Honestly this would have been a lot more significant if the game was longer. As it is, you don't actually get your money's worth unless you do all the endings. It's really easy for the game to go >hurr you're only doing these bad things for your own messed up sense if completionism!! but there are essentially only one decision and two endings to the game so it's not really that good a message.
It also really dropped the ball on the saving stuff. They could have done so many cool things with that, but instead it's just a tiny handful of lines.
>>78614836 I don't get your angle. The game succinctly makes its message clear by having a bad playthrough that actually sheds a lot more light on the game's "story" but trades the player's soul. If it added random shit just so that its longer and more varied if you're a "completionist" it would dilute it this.
>>78610107 >>78610130 it is, in some sandbox games. like a fallout, or skyrim. you can just choose not to do any specific quests, if you know the outcome won't be something you like. there is some real player choice.
But mostly, yeah, player choice in a game is an illusion. the dev creates the world and programs preconceived directions, and outcomes.
I was actually joking with this, to Curt before Amalur game out. he told us the plot, and this was before the demo? or right about that time.
>Amalur is also home to a species of supernaturally-gifted people called "Fateweavers." Fateweavers can look into an individual's future and tell what they see, often with special attention paid to the individual's eventual death. For a number of years before the game's outset, the fate of everyone in the Faelands has been, "Slain by the Tuatha Deohn," suggesting that the Winter Fae will win their war of conquest. The player character is "fateless", in charge of their own fate, and can alter the world!?! I found this hilarious, and was expecting this to be some meta commentary on gaming. As exactly said, there is no such thing as player choice in gaming, and players are exactly like the npcs chained to fate, as laid out by the devs. they can't really rewrite their player paths at all.
sadly, no. the writers apparently never noticed this glaring irony of their own story.
Toby should just stick to music. Pacifist was sappy shit, and Genocide was cool until spoopy uboa face and the latest teasing in his twitter is kind of cringy. Neutral End is best. but lazy since you just get different phonecalls instead of special cutscenes or something.
>>78617365 >uboa face Even though people enjoy hating Toby Fox because the Undertale fanbase is out of fucking control, he does have pretty good taste in games. He said in an e-mail exchange interview that he likes Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective. >>78604739 This new art looks rather ugly, especially the last panel. The first one doesn't look all that bad, but it kinda progresses in "eh", until the last panel looks unappealing. At least, that's what I think of it. It must be the noses and ears. At least it's not like Tim Fuckley's literally copy pasted comics, but that's not a very high standard to set.
>>78613046 >I've never really understood the comparison to Earthbound. > Their style and themes are, but not their actual gameplay. and that is why people compare it to Earthbound, not for it's gameplay, but because of the look and some of the humor.
To bring the discussion of Undertale around to something that may be a bit more familiar to /co/, I have the same problems with it that I have with Gigidigi's Cucumber Quest.
The "earthboundesque" humor feels a lot less genuine than Earthbound. It's not "quirky," it's snarky. It a crutch instead of a writing tool. Toby clearly isn't confident enough in his own writing to try writing a serious story, so everything is offbeat and wacky instead. And even then, it's really one-note to a fault. Alphys likes anime. Papyrus is boisterous and likes puzzles/spaghetti. Undyne is overly loud and aggressive.
It really feels like "deconstructing the tropes" is what savvy Internet age writers do when they can't think of their own stories to write. Undertale is a meta-commentary on RPGs and Saving and resetting or whatever, but nothing about it stands very well on its own.
It feels really immature for a writer to take on meta commentary and deconstruction when the results of his serious attempts at writing amount to "the power of friendship saves the day" in the good ending and "the evil smiling child makes a spooky face and jumps at the screen" in the bad ending
I found Undertale is a cute game with some decent jokes, and a good enough story to keep most interested. The game wasn't really my cup of tea, but its alright way to spend some time on.
IF comparing it to other indie games I would say its above average. Pretty solid for something done with such a small team (most of the work being done by one guy).
That being said the "fandom" that sprung up around it is annoying as hell. Sure it can be said all fandom are like this, but they seem especially loud about it. This can probably be contributed to it being somewhat recent, I'm sure it will die down eventually.
Its a shame that most the people on this god forsaken site can't seem to separate the obnoxious fans from the piece of media. Well that and people like to be contrarian about things now in days as it seems to be the "cool thing" to do.
So basically: ok game, way bigger fanbase that it actually needs.
>>78625049 Maybe this is time I've spent on /v/ in years past but it kinda irks me when I play a game and I can already tell my tumblr dash is gonna get fucking flooded with fan art and writing about the aspect of the game that best matches the social justice talking points of the moment.
Not that I have anything against sjw politics specifically being a non-hetero liberal myself, but it's like watching someone slow-pitch a protag with unclear gender and lesbian fish softball and knowing that the pitch is so easily digestible because of certain aspects hit that the other merits of the ballgame are going to be completely discounted by the screams of the fans just because of that single slow-pitch ball got knocked out of the park.
It feels like every time there's a new lgbt character it's gonna get a free pass and get paraded around harder than /co/'s waifu of the week. Then the fanfare dies down leaving the fandom like a looted pyramid: A monument to something great from ages where nothing of worth remains inside.
>>78611459 >>78617990 the pandering isn't in the fact that the protagonist is female, the pandering is when the game dev goes "yeah im a feminist so i made our character a girl. this should separate us from the hordes of games that appeal to straight white cis men"
>>78610000 The "You could have stopped playing the game" bit IS legitimate. (Beyond the "Only winning move is to not play" War Games idea)
Walker keeps going, deeper and deeper into the hellhole that is Dubai when his mission was only to see if anyone was alive then get the hell out of there. "None of this would've happened if you just stopped."
Likewise, the player keeps going through with it because, well, that's what the game tells you to do. Of course you keep moving forward without too much of a second thought.
It's not really "You're an awful person!" it's more of a commentary on how game stories are told and how we take them at face value. The game, through extremes, forces the player to examine the narrative outside of gameplay context and go, "Whoa, hold on, what?"
tl;dr: It's less "You're awful" and more centered around player agency.
>>78605580 And Mike's input on the matter >I have no idea what Tycho is talking about but I think we agree. If you asked me why I thought Undertale was stupid I’d just tell you it looked like shit and made no fucking sense. It is the videogame equivalent of the nonsense symbols crazy people draw on their walls with shit.
>>78604739 Mike has always freely admitted that he just apes the style of whoever catches his eye at any given moment; like it or not this is the closest he's ever gotten to being 'himself' artistically. I did like the 'copy Joel Silver as much as humanly possible' years best but it's his thing. >>78605602 The only thing Jerry would fuck harder than a Thesaurus is a leather-bound, hand-made edition of his own fucking writing.
Thing is, they both admit this freely. They just do this shit that a whole fuck of a lot of people have liked and paid stupid money for over the years. They have never particularly struck me as egotistical; I don't even think they liked the shit they did like stripsearch or most of their non-comic/non-Child's Play endeavors. Hell the only time they ever lost their proverbial shit and took things personally was the Dickwolves thing, and that was just Mike being triggered by his teen bullying PTSD in the worst way. Khoo put a stop to it because he's invested way too much money, time and effort to let him sperg out and ruin a multi-million dollar annual franchise.
>>78604739 I just got reminded of this other game comic I used to read a long ass time ago. I think it was set in canada, and most strips were four panels long. I can also remember the setup to the website, but nothing about the fucking name. It was one of those "two guys" comics.
>>78624240 >Toby clearly isn't confident enough in his own writing to try writing a serious story, so everything is offbeat and wacky instead. Or maybe the point of Undertale wasn't to be completely serious, but light-hearted and humorous with a few tinges of dark layered inside. The fact that the pacifist ending is "the power of friendship" should have clued you in on that.
Toby did a fine job presenting the story of a race of monsters stuck underground and what they are willing to do to get out. Alphys, the fucking anime-loving dinosaur, has severe issues with confidence after she made monsters out of monsters trying to figure out a way out, and Asgore set the underground on a course for war, purely based on emotion for the death of his blood and adopted sons, and couldn't let himself out of it lest the underground would fall to despair again.
Even Papyrus, the silly character that he is, is more complex than "he likes da spaghetti". His boisterous attitude is based on actual desire to become respected, thinking that is the only way to get ahead in life. He stood outside of Undyne's house for hours waiting to prove that he could be strong enough to be part of the royal guard. He is focused, intent on becoming someone that he would respect. And puzzles are just a common love from every monster.
You went into Undertale expecting brilliant meta-commentary. I'm almost positive that the furthest Toby thought in terms of this meta bullshit was "Wouldn't it be cool if an RPG let you not kill enemies if you wanted to?" and "Wouldn't it be cool if the game could tell when someone uses a save state to see 'both sides' of a path?" Same reason why Gigi's thoughts in terms of meta bullshit was probably "Wouldn't it be cool if the Paper Mario formula was used in the comic's narrative, but the villains and narrative aren't actually what they appear to be?". You went in expecting platinum out of a gold bar, instead of taking the goddamn gold bar.
>>78629595 >hoo put a stop to it because he's invested way too much money, time and effort to let him sperg out and ruin a multi-million dollar annual franchise. I'm imagining him in a board room, ranting at them hollywood movie villain style about how he's come too far to let some crazy art punks mess up his show now.
>You were nothing when I found you! Starving artists riddled with mental illnesses! I MADE YOU!
In fact the first time you play you are probaby expected to kill quite a few things and not get guilt tripped until the very end, but the fanbase got so vocal that now everyone who tries the game gets yelled at if they get even close to accidentally killing something.
Undertale is a really great game but I went in with no expectations, there's so much common knowledge about it now a lot of the cleverness is lost.
I'm just sick of Undertale fans acting like their game is somehow super deep. The monsters are actually good guys. It's a deconstruction of Zelda like games where you usually kill all the monsters you meet. We get it. It's not a bad idea, but it's neither original or profound like Undertale fans pretend it is.
Seriously though, when he first met with them they didn't even technically own the comic. They have said outright that PA, as it has existed probably since 2003 or so when it 'took off' is almost entirely because of his efforts.
>>78605561 >>78605580 >>78629194 These people are downright refusing to play the game and are desperately trying to sound smart or something for not playing it.
I played undertale the moment it came out. and was blown away at the ride. if you don't want to play it cool but holy shit you are autistic if you go out of your way to act like this. the reason people act cautious if you havent played it is because its mostly a story and people don't like to be the guys who spoil good shit.
clearly though these people are too caught up trying to be poetic savants and being confused at pictures on a screen.
Bad comparison. Nirvana was something new, Undertale is stale, manipulative drivel. I can't tell if the average fan is oblivious to how obvious the writing is or they just don't care. My parents were pre-Nirvana and I was post-Nirvana, neither of our generations were really the Nirvana generation and we can both agree that it's good music. It's just a matter of good taste.
But there was no shortage of stale, manipulative drivel that we liked as kids. Compare it to one of them. Like, I don't know, Teen Titans.
>>78631894 I don't really know or care what baldy and ADHD have said about Undertale, but there's nothing wrong with liking one indulgent thing and not liking another. Hell, you're even allowed to rant a little about how the thing you don't like being as popular as it is is a bad thing. Sure you can take it too far, but that's just their editorial prerogative.
After all, they dabble in editorials, not critical reviews.
>>78631835 He is absolutely a graphics whore. I am completely unsurprised that he didn't give a fuck about Undertale. Tycho not liking it is surprising in a way, but not Gabe. >>78631874 It takes balls to admit that not only wrong about your judgement, but that your initial judgement was made without even playing it. He's still a bag of shit for trying to act fucking high and mighty about the Temmies. Jesus. Sounds like someone's mad about all the money he spent on a degree that hasn't paid for itself.
>>78631975 I can't even decipher Tyccho's post to figure out why he didn't like it. Closest I can gather is that he's upset because it makes fun of or recontextualizes Classic RPG mechanics and since he's an old pretentious dude he likes all that stuff the way it was.
>>78632005 It sounded to me more like he thinks the game is being given deference or accolades that it hasn't yet 'earned' or deserved, more because of the fanbase that's sprung up around it far more than the game itself, but he thinks the game isn't entirely without blame either. Like it's channeling Earthbound without any of the collective creative effort required to make it, making it somehow fake or insincere. If that's what he's saying, I get it, but I don't really agree with it.
>>78632247 He's been losing it since he was like, 12. He had some hair in their earliest pictures sometime in the late 90s, but he rather smartly got rid of whatever was left soon after. Mike has surprised me in the sense that he went from a nervous looking beanpole to putting on just a little bit of weight and some facial hair and looking like a normal goddamned human being.
>>78631753 That's every fucking entry, though. Jerry cannot write like a human being, he finds it absolutely necessary to write like a giant cock with his own hand wrapped around it or the words simply won't come out.
>>78632262 It's a mutation of "Laughing so hard my sides hurt" as in the sides of your abdomen. It happens when particularly violent laughter causes your diaphragm to spasm repeatedly to the point of discomfort. See also "Side Splitting".
When someone proclaims "My sides!" it's supposed to imply that they're laughing very hard at something.
>>78609916 How the fuck is it that every single person who's ever played Spec Ops has gotten their panties twisted into a knot over a single fucking line from a fucking loading screen? It wasn't even meant as a personal insult, it was setting the dramatic mood. It wasn't actually literally telling you to shut the game off and fuck off, it was hammering in the deconstruction of cinematic set piece shooters forcing you to constantly move forward. The people who made the game aren't actually mad at you for buying their product and then taking the time to play through it and it's fucking amazing that so many people think that they are.
>>78610780 I call it Earthbound 2 because people who've actually played Earthbound kept going "What the heck is Mother?" when I mention it. So I started calling it by the name that everyone would know what it is.
>>78612526 It's not that you have to to like Undertale, but saying you absolutely love games like Undertale and never playing the game it was based on is... rather phoney.
>>78632709 >It's not that you have to to like Undertale, but saying you absolutely love games like Undertale and never playing the game it was based on is... rather phoney. By that logic, if you haven't read through the epic of gilgamesh you're not allowed to like any story because you don't know what modern literature is based on.
>>78632709 >but saying you absolutely love games like Undertale and never playing the game it was based on is... rather phoney. That's like saying that you are not allowed to enjoy Super Metroid if you haven't played the NES Metroid There is absolutely nothing phoney about that. Here is how it work -Play a game -Enjoy the game -Say you enjoy the game.
Whether or not you have played the inspiration source is irrelevant. If you have enjoyed a game there is absolutely nothing phoney about saying you enjoyed it.
>>78610507 This is something that annoyed me too. The game does it's best to railroad you down the path of Neutral->Pacifist->Genocide no matter what your original intentions might have been because the whole meta-narrative is designed to go in that order.
The only way for people to get the Pacifist ending first, even if they began playing with the intention of hurting no one from the very beginning is to have already watched a walkthrough or to have received guidance from someone else beforehand because the battle with Toriel explicitly tells you that doing anything but fighting her will have no effect which is something that never happens throughout the rest of the game. And then the sudden huge amount of damage that she takes at the end prevents the player from trying any last minute attempts to spare her out of desperation.
>>78633182 >Pacifist->Genocide That's a straight up lie because the game actually goes out of its way to tell you to fuck off and stop playing after the Pacifist route. It spends a significant bit of time telling you that there's no need to go back and play genocide just to feel like you've "completed" the game, and if you do go ahead and do it anyway it chastises you for it the whole way through.
Also one of the frogs warns you that some characters cannot be fought and it tells you to spare people even if they will not let you spare them, and it does it before you fight toriel. And if you do accidentally kill toriel because you didn't take the hint, you can just reload the save and the game takes it into account and accepts it and even fits it into the narrative, so you're not even breaking the game.
>>78633225 >That's a straight up lie because the game actually goes out of its way to tell you to fuck off and stop playing after the Pacifist route. What is reverse psychology and going out of it's way to remind you that there is still one more route left?
>Also one of the frogs warns you that some characters cannot be fought and it tells you to spare people even if they will not let you spare them This is something I took into account on my first playthrough, but after attempting to spare her several times and getting no response I assumed that I would have to wait until she was on low health before i could do anything. Then when she was the sudden huge amount of damage for literally no reason killed her before I could try anything. I'm sure that plenty of other people had the same thing happen.
>you can just reload the save I don't know why anyone would do this on their first run of a game that is obviously about choice and consequences for your actions. Even if the game does accept it there's no way to know that unless you do it first.
Besides it's actually impossible to get the pacifist ending before the neutral one even if you do spare Toriel, which makes no sense because nothing about Undyne and Alphys' date or Alphys' laboratory causes the pacifist ending to happen, it's the fact that you have made close bonds with all the characters you have encountered.
>>78633465 The game stopping you, telling you to knock it off, and then outright pleading with you to not fuck it all up is not fucking 'reverse psychology' to get you to go back and kill everything.
>buh buh why would it say that there's another path at all
It doesn't, not until you actually go back and reopen the game, obviously with the intention of replaying it, most likely for the other path. Only when you take steps towards fucking it all up does it stop you and ask you to not do that. Then when you do that it berates you for not listening at every turn, through several characters. That's not reverse fucking psychology. When mommy told you not to hit other kids on the playground she wasn't secretly egging you on by letting you in on the secret that you could potentially hit other kids, and that's reinforced by the fact that she grounded your dumb ass when you went out and did it anyway because 'reverse psychology'.
>>78610507 >>78633182 >have already watched a walkthrough or to have received guidance To be fair the demo already had Toriel's battle, so Toby didn't change a thing because the backers knew how to deal with the first boss.
>>78633527 That analogy is pretty stupid because unlike the mother in that scenario Toby spent months writing an interesting and compelling scenario with new music and assets as well as designing the two most complex and enjoyable battles in the game, he didn't for them to go untouched. He obviously expected some people to stop after the Pacifist ending but Flowey's speech before the Sans battle shows that he knows the mindset of many of the people who would play his game and probably shares it himself and he knows that they would want to experience every route. I don't know how you can't understand the appeal of playing the bad guy in a make-believe scenario and the game telling you to stop only adds to the experience.
>>78633548 This is fair enough, although at this point only a fraction of the people who played the full game tried the demo beforehand.
It seems to me that more than 90% of the people who bash Undertale have either never played it or knew everything about it before they played it. I went into it 100% blind knowing absolutely nothing of what to expect and it ended up being my GOTY. If you know ahead of time that the game has multiple endings and set paths based on mercy/kills then you are just ruining the experience for yourself. I went into it not knowing that I could spare literally everybody without engaging in conflict and the experience became that much more impactful to me, yet I see people play for their first time knowing that they need to spare everyone to get the best ending and then they come out of it underwhelmed. Well, fucking yeah, you basically neutered the whole experience for yourself by looking up what to do ahead of time, of course it's going to disappoint you.
>>78605561 >>78605580 I am not a native speaker but I like to think my english is pretty good. I dont understand what the fuck he's trying to say. It's one thing to use more obscure words to express what you mean, its another to use them to avoid having to say anything outright. My native language is incredibly precise and blunt, not like english, and this writing just pisses me off cause he's trying to dance around the issue while still sounding like he's addressing it.
I can understand people not liking Undertale but at least most people arent pretencious cunts about it.
>>78633800 I went in knowing you could spare everyone and that doing that was probbably a good idea, with only that knowledge I still thoroughly enjoyed the experience. But to me it's like a movie with only really 1 or 2 twists. If you know that twist ahead of time you can still enjoy the movie but it wont blow your mind with how little things it uses to set up the twist. you just kind of acknowledge it.
I really enjoyed the movie Sunshine, but I cant tell anyone what it's about because it only really has 1 twist that upsets the status quo, telling people about it ruins the entire movie's story.
>>78633690 >He obviously expected some people to stop after the Pacifist ending but Flowey's speech before the Sans battle shows that he knows the mindset of many of the people who would play his game and probably shares it himself and he knows that they would want to experience every route. I don't know how you can't understand the appeal of playing the bad guy in a make-believe scenario and the game telling you to stop only adds to the experience.
I don't think you're neurologically capable of understanding basic theory of mind because that is some serious projection.
Given that the entire point of the narrative is fighting against the general RPG/video game mindset that it is necessary to kill things just because they're there, complete paths just because they're there, and become a total genocidal maniac after formerly being the holiest of saints just because you can, it's pretty obvious that he wasn't fucking funneling you towards a genocidal route and that was entirely your own choice.
But that message completely, 100% flew over your head because you took the path just because it was there, and then you actually went and said it was his fault for having the path there in the first place and he probably wanted you to do it all along because you felt like being an asshole and flowey telling you to not genocide everything made you want to genocide everything.
>>78633981 If Toby wanted to punish people for choosing genocide he would have made it boring as fuck but instead he made it just as fun and interesting as the other two routes, arguably more so. The reason why games like the Stanley Parable are so popular is because breaking the supposed "rules" of a game and watching it try to fight back against you is a fun experience.
>The entire point of the narrative is fighting against the general RPG/video game mindset that it is necessary to kill things just because they're there, complete paths just because they're there, and become a total genocidal maniac after formerly being the holiest of saints just because you can
But nothing drives that point home harder than the genocide route, specifically the verbal slamming and guilt trip that Flowey and Sans give the player at the end.
And anyway my original point was that there's a specific order that the game forces you to go in to get every route, which is true. The game locks you out of the pacifist ending before you get the neutral ending and although it's possible to get the genocide ending from the start the game obviously intends for you to get it, if at all, after completing a pacifist route, hence why Flowey brings it up after you restart following a pacifist ending.
Have you ever been so far up your own ass that you wrote a pageful of pseudointellectual buzzwords to justify your opinion of simply not liking a game but blowing it way out of proportion and going as far as to call it a "non-game"?
>>78605672 Not him, but I have a very low tolerance for a game pulling "ugh how can you, the player, be such a shitty person! Come on, it's 2015! Don't you feel bad for murdering these pixels?!"
It was annoying in Spec Ops: the Line, and its annoying here. Especially when the monsters attack you without provokation, but the game and characters start treating you like a bad guy for defending yourself. Sure you can go pure pacifist on repeat playthroughs, but it's still annoying. Doubly so when you lock the games best content behind the evil path and then attack the player for trying to get their money's worth.
Basically, guilt tripping the player is a supremely lazy way to give a game depth, and I've never seen it done in a non-hamfisted way. It's pure pretension.
>>78634571 Never played the game, but doesn't it only call you shitty if you go out of your way to kill everyone, even the ones who don't attack you? There are scripted events that are basically designed to get you off the genocide path if you're not ok with killing innocents.
>>78633981 >>78634177 Actually after rewatching Flowey's post-pacifist speech I see he only tells the player not to reset, rather than specifically warning against the genocide route, so I guess I misremembered that. But Sans' talk of timelines being reset and Flowey's accuions of the player of needing to explore every route at the end shows that the game assumes that the player has already completed the other two routes prior to a genocide run.
>>78615435 story bricks! yeah. AI and procedural generation is getting there, slowly. Very slowly. Procedural generated outcomes and story, is possible. just complex, and expensive to put in a game. the question of is it worth the price is the issue. No one is really willing to fund the creation currently, given it might not be really satisfying in the end. there is also emergent gameplay. with 3d engines these days... its pretty clear often gameplay occurs, which was not intended or planned by game devs.
>>78634757 And the best bossfights in the game are genocide-only. Sorry that I actually want to have have fun with the game, im not going to settle for LPs of a game that i own. It's annoying to have have the game personally attack the player when it forces you to go the evil route to get all the cool fights, and unique tidbits of lore.
>>78629419 More that its a common theme a lot of these long running web comics start falling into, usually after the writers and artists become parents themselves. After a while, they realize they can't talk about Nerd Culture any more.
>>78634896 Emergent gameplay yes but an emergent story in a video game is still a far off prospect if it's even possible at all. Even procedural generation is just giving yourself a larger box of pieces to string together, there's still a set amount of ways the story can go. Honestly if you're looking for emergent story and real player agency video games are probably the wrong medium for it. You'd be better off playing tabletop RPGs.
>>78637356 On some levels Gabe and Tycho may have been a bit too on the nose with some of the challenges. Namely how actually drawing comics is actually a fairly minor aspect to webcartooning, compared to pushing and presenting yourself in social media.
Tycho and Gabe were meek, bullied children who now get off to the fact that they have the power to make people mad. That's why they went so far with the whole Dickwolves thing. There's no belief of political agenda, they just feel big when they piss people off. By getting mad about Undertale you're just feeding their ego's further.
>>78640700 Welcome to the free world, just sitting and drawing good stuff does not earn you money. You either have to do the merchandise and business angle yourself to remain independent, or build a company around yourself like Penny Arcade or Jim Davis.
>>78634890 >Flowey's accuions of the player of needing to explore every route at the end I got the pacifist route on my first try (nearly, at least, I didn't do some of the things necessary, but as long as you don't kill anybody flowey will tell you what you needed to do and you can go back to the save before asgore and quickly do it without having to restart the whole game) and flowey didn't say anything like that to me. The game put a flag that you were doing multiple runs in your save and responded to that, it wasn't assumed that every player would do it.
>>78641033 If you try to start the game up after doing True Pacifist Flowey encourages you to leave everyone happy instead of resetting everything to fill your desire to play again for any reason. I think that's what anon was referring to.
>>78640752 More like WELCOME TO THE UNNECESSARILY BUSTED AND SLANTED SYSTEM THAT IS GROWING WORSE BY THE HOUR DUE TO LACK OF FOCUS AND QUALITY CONTROL.
Please, dude. You really think I haven't heard the dog eat dog world spiel by now?
There is an engine waiting to be made, which could pump a meritocracy into existence. But first, the average person has to give a shit. Simultaneously realizing what webcomics are capable of, and that most of them are failing to utilize that potential.
>>78604739 I gave up on PA a few years ago back when Mike's art got bad. I didn't realize that it has gotten even worse since then. I mean, look at that first panel. Did he intend for Gabe to look like a fucking squirrel? That round face, those goofy buck teeth. wtf is this shit? Has he gone blind? Does he think this is a style that suits him?
>>78605419 >But after he started to draw "wavy" teeth in 2009 the whole thing slowly fell apart. This, also when he started giving every character red noses. What is up with that? Peoples' noses aren't red unless they're out in the cold. Why does he do this?
And now I see that he's making the noses tan/brown. That makes even LESS sense
>>78641033 >>78641094 I was referring to the speech that Flowey gives Chara/the player at the end of the Genocide route, right before the fight with Sans, where he pretty explicitly calls out the player for their need to experience every option the game has to offer just because it's there.
>>78641324 >Simultaneously realizing what webcomics are capable of, and that most of them are failing to utilize that potential. ur just jealous cause they got lucky makin 10k a month 4 doin subpar work and u didnt :^)
I want to strangle every fuck who makes this argument. What is even the thought process? Is it because they're lazy awful hacks who want to 'get lucky' themselves so they try to head off their own potential criticism pre-emptively? Why does nobody give a shit about a meritocracy?
>>78608908 >Boy scouts ala D&D Rangers, and Girl Scouts as, like dryads or something. Probably the most painful thing in PA history was them adding in the dryad girls as an obvious reaction to a torrent of OMIGOD WHY ARE ALL THE BOY SCOUTS BOYS IT'S 2014 MIKE!!!!!?!?!?!
>>78644061 I don't think they lost their balls, I think it's just that the landscape of the internet and its politics have shifted around them.
It's not that they have some sort of problem disagreeing with those people, it's that they are those people. Tycho or whatever his real name is, has long had an infatuation with daughteru characters. I recall that contextless comic about some girl who's name kept getting called over panels of her doing kid hero stuff.
It's not clever, it's flat elitist. He's abusing language to talk down to people. Language is about communication and he uses a verbose vocabulary to cloud intention and to diminish understanding. He uses dollar words when dime words would be ten times more appropriate because of both subject and audience.
If he was writing for academia I'd likely still find it completely over the top, but at least it would make sense. He's writing a blog for a video game web comic. It's completely unnecessary to communicate in the way he chooses here.
>>78646578 >Language is about communication and he uses a verbose vocabulary to cloud intention and to diminish understanding. He uses dollar words when dime words would be ten times more appropriate because of both subject and audience. "Kid: never play an ace when a two will do."
>>78628903 It's alright, anon. That's fucking horrible, and several years have been taken off of my lifespan from listening to these. I'll look back on my life years from now and blame my dementia on this.
>>78608583 It looks like caricature you'd buy from a street artist. It's the exact opposite of B^U, where instead of facial expressions never changing, they change so much there's no sense of what emotion they actually are trying to convey.
Also, fuck Tumblr noses and everyone who likes them.
>>78633182 >because the battle with Toriel explicitly tells you that doing anything but fighting her will have no effect which is something that never happens throughout the rest of the game. Except one of the frogs tells you that sometimes you'll have to keep sparing an enemy even when their name isn't yellow.
>>78633828 He's saying that when you hack something apart in order to parody it, it puts the flaws of the thing onto glaring display. He thinks Undertale's deconstruction of RPGs doesn't do RPGs any favors, and examining and questioning the conventions of the genre that previously everyone just accepted just makes the games themselves seem stupid in retrospect.
He's saying it's a parody that doesn't respect the thing it's parodying enough.
>>78634910 >It's annoying to have have the game personally attack the player when it forces you to go the evil route to get all the cool fights, and unique tidbits of lore. its attacking you because thats all you care about. completing things 100%
>>78637356 >>78637894 But Strip Search was great, if only for the contestants' absolute refusal to do catty competitive reality show bullshit. It was the only reality show I'd ever seen where everyone seemed like they were getting along and genuinely happy to be there and pleasant to be around.
>>78647685 undertale is too transparent, every single game mechanic is telegraphed and there is no real choice. the game has a "good ending" and "bad endings". it says fundamentally basic things about rpg mechanics that don't bring any new understanding of the genre and are basically just the gaming equivalent of jaden smith's tweets. it's popular because it makes teens feel smart.
>>78647459 >Tons of new dialogue from almost every character, with certain characters having some of their greatest moments in the whole game >Revisited areas get a totally different atmosphere as they're deserted and have new music >Able to steal from shops, so you can have more money than you know what to do with and large supplies of certain items >Hotland largely cut out so that playing through the game again doesn't drag on too long >By far the two best boss battles in the game which are the only times the game really uses the full potential of it's battle system, and one of which is the thing that the it will still be remembered for years down from now >A fantastic, chilling ending that gives a completely different perspective to the whole game and even adds a new twist to subsequent playthroughs
There's a reason that Sans is by far the most popular character in the game and it isn't because of how funny he was in Snowdin and at the restaurant.
>>78642466 I could remember this wrong, but wasn't this Flowey going on about how he himself did it in that order, that he at first became friends with everyone and made them happy before getting bored of it, resetting it all and then doing a genocide run.
>>78604739 I've never agreed more. The game is cute but goddamn I'm sick of hearing about it and seeing it.
I never liked Earthbound. I used to own it in the 90s and traded it with a friend for Donkey Kong Country 2. Worth it.
Anon had a point about the "litmus test" thing though. It's always been that way. Either you love it or you're just too stupid to understand it like *the rest of us*. Anyone who dares call Killing Joke a weak story, or doesn't like The Dark Knight Returns just doesn't GET IT MAAAAAN.
Same goes for Star Trek or any other Sacred-Nerd-Cow. It's not a new phenomenon, It's just that a lot of us are getting too old to give a shit anymore.
>>78649107 Yeah, that's right. I suppose Flowey himself never directly accuses the you of doing these things but it's clearly Toby making the player reflect on their actions and their thought process behind those actions, which wouldn't work if their first play through was a genocide.
>>78605561 >they want to know if I can be trusted. If I’m like the others. They want to know if they can tell me the secret, and they will, provided I already know it. So I lied. I lied and lied and lied. Is... he trying to rape these children or something?
>>78650350 >NO, YOU DON'T GET TO SEE THIS CONTENT >NOT EVEN IF YOU'RE HAVING SOMEBODY ELSE DO IT TO MINIMIZE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO HURT THESE FAKE VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS IN SEPARATE GENOCIDE RUNS
Well I don't know, I think it's more like, say, enjoying Evangelion not having watched Gundam, or Diebuster or something. I'm not really a mech anime guy, but you get what I'm trying to say.
I think if something, even a deconstruction, can't stand on its own merits, then that is a flaw of it. Not that that makes it bad, in and of itself, but it is a flaw, in the same way a misspelling or a lack of research is- it impedes the work, if slightly.
Okay, stop. Im gonna tell you something important.
As a rule, anytime you argue with a variation on the phrase "You just didn't play it" You're wrong by default. For two major reasons.
1. It's not an argument. It's you trying to avoid an argument. You don't know what we've played. So shut your corn hole.
2. Even if people DIDN'T play it, well that speaks more of the game itself. It's not our job to play every game ever. It's the games job to make us want to play it. If people don't want to then that means somewhere the game is doing something wrong.
You're not a pack of misunderstand geniuses. The game's not a hidden gem or unappreciated work of art. You're all a pack of twats.
Tchyo's always had this really weird style of writing. He's very much a "thesaurus at the ready" kind of guy and doesn't really seem to understand basic flow of writing and just ping pongs all over the place.
I don't think he has any formal training in the art really.
>>78652005 Number 1 is right. Number 2 is not. It has no bearing on the argument. You can't say "I didn't play the game, therefore I can critique the game are a whole because it didn't make me want to play it."
Someone not playing the game doesn't mean anything more than they didn't play it. The number of people playing a game means nothing more than the number of people who played it. At best, that means it has or lacks of a wide appeal. But you can hardly use that as an argument, since millions upon millions of people played Battlefront, and a fraction of that played Bloodborne. This doesn't mean Battlefront is good game and Bloodborne is not. It doesn't mean the opposite either. It just means more people wanted to play Battlefront than Bloodborne.
That a game didn't appeal to you is fine. It can't be used to actually critique a game beyond saying it didn't seem to be your thing. A game, or any piece of media, doesn't have to appeal to everyone to be good. There's significant belief that it's generally the opposite.
Well anything that makes it impossible for a player to enact any sort of play doctrine other than the one particular one the game allows, has absolutely no right to pass judgement on us as human beings and berate us for doing the only course of action it will alow
Y'know... Railsea had it's problems, and China Mievile is by no means a visionary writer, but he has more imagination and talent than both these knuckle-fucks combined. I don't know each of them personally, but I'm going to include the rest of the penny arcade offices in that equation as well. Besides, hasn't it been established for the past 10+ years that Tycho has a hard-on for bullshit fantasy words? How can he be such a hypocrite?
Fuck! And to think not earlier this week a friend and I were GUT-BUSTING just by remembering one of their older strips. How long until these two are cast from Mt. Olympus?
>>78649277 Genocide almost has to be deliberate though, that's the point. It's not something that a random first player would just come across, as it requires not just killing monsters, but going out of your way to kill every single monster in the game. The only reason one would do it would be a conscious effort to see what happens when they do, or because they already know what they're getting into and just want to experience it.
When I went to visit my family for a couple of days in New Years my brother pestered me to play this
I'm glad he did, shit was fun as hell. He told me to aim for the True Pacifist route for the best ending, and it far surpased my expectations I can understand why having to re-play the game for the best ending when some things you have to do to get True Pacifist status are pretty counter-intuitive can get anoying though.
Using big words when you don't need to, especially to complain about how you don't get a videogame, isn't intelligent. It's being preoccupied with appearing intelligent. Intelligence is about what you say not how you say.
>>78655838 I think it works pretty well. In most cases you'll probably either go pacifist from the start, do some killing but reset early on, be a completionist and don't mind doing multiple playthroughs to get different endings, or not care about the "best" ending and just be satisfied with how the neutral one works out for you.
Reaching the end and then going "This is dumb I wanted the best ending, but didn't want to lookup how to get it, and also don't want to do a second playthrough" is kind of weird.
>>78656742 Well, I mean more little things like: In the Fish Girl fight, it took me a while to figure out you were supposed to run away once your heart turned red. I know there was a hint of it at the begining, but that's something I found counter-intuitive since I had solved every previous fight by talking things out. Or the fight against the Goat King actually forces you to attack even in pacifist. It's not major problems, mind you; it's still one of my favorite games I've played this year.
I don't get why people get so mad about people liking things that in turn they have to aggressively deconstruct the thing. People like Undertale. its harmless. let people enjoy things. don't get mad. especially don't get mad if you ain't never played the damn thing yourself. calm down. let it go. i fucking hate family guy, but i'm not gonna aggressively lecture people on "why its bad" or whatever. if i see someone talking about how they like it, i'm like "nice, im glad it makes you happy." jesus.
>>78633828 From what I read, he's saying he doesn't like it because it hits too close to home, and that also it doesn't pay respect to the things it's poking fun at and that it does so wholeheartedly and without shame.
It's basically an overinflated pretentious sop that doesn't say anything worthwhile about what he's "critiquing". And I say that in the loosest of terms.
What he's saying is a flat out li,e it's first and foremost just a fucking game, with jokes, that has a concise story with a bit more depth should you will it.
It's not some high end genre dissection art game that you need to have a rainman like understanding of to get. It's a fucking game.
>>78647622 >shitty purely subjective, but if you were going from a mechanical or general perspective you'd be wrong. >tryhard how? >dishonest it seems to do everything it tries do do, I really don't get what you mean by this. >>78647822 It's not bad that it's telegraphed if he's trying to consruct the game so that you get the best ending intuitively. As far as the rpg mechanics being trite that's fine, but I didn't see them as being importtant to anything but the story, like I feel like it's being viewed as pretentious when it's just supposed to be a vehicle for story plot points and not some grand deconstruction.
>>78649173 >Anon had a point about the "litmus test" thing though. It's always been that way. Either you love it or you're just too stupid to understand it like *the rest of us*. The only people who are that insufferable are the people who think in absolutes about these sorts of things. The desire to fit in that subscribe to the culture or the counter culture. Basically you and the fans of undertale who are on the opposite ends of the spectrum.
There is a middle ground and it has some reasonable people who can like and dislike a thing without being sutistic about it.
Ponies were horrible. They were a blight on the internet.
But now they're dead. What little fans there are left are quietly murmuring to themselves in their containment boards and posting their porn in /trash/
The horsefucker cancer only lives on in people like you, who shit themselves until they bleed every time they see a pony and try to stomp out every new fad because they can't handle another bronies (Which will never come).
It's the reason people won't shut up about SU It's the reason people won't shut up about Undetale.
>>78604739 It's a deliberate stylistic choice to try and make the comic more expressive and visually interesting. I mean, don't get me wrong, it sucks and is as ugly as all fuck, but it's not unintentional. I respect the intention behind it, if not the results.
>>78610868 I don't hate it so much as I didn't enjoy it. Just didn't find it a fun game to play. I did like a fair bit of the writing, but unless I'm in one of the pretty good boss battles, it never really feels like I'm doing anything, and it just gets boring. The random encounters are infrequent, so you're kind of just walking through big empty corridors most of the time, with only the occasional 'puzzle' to break the lull.
>>78604739 It always baffles me to see refrains of "Mike's art is bad!" ...how is it bad? I mean, let's break it down by the major foundations: Composition, Line, Value, Color, Form, and Texture....they're all consistently good, if not great.
So what's the real excuse for griping about Penny Arcade? >Mike's style keeps changing Not that much, and even then, not that often. Mike strikes me as somebody who constantly struggles to put out good art, and is never completely satisfied with what their capacity for good art. It's only natural that he tweaks his style in pursuit of that kind of ideal. He doesn't let himself settle into stagnation. >Alright, but I don't like X detail in the art Sorry to hear that, buddy. In the end, no one artist will ever be capable of producing art that appeals equally to everyone. It's true no matter what medium and no matter where you go in the world. You're welcome to your particular aesthetic taste, and those that disagree with you are welcome to like what you don't like. >Okay, but Jerry is a pretentious writer. He uses big words to show off how superior he is to everyone. Why is big words a bad thing? Unless he's using the words incorrectly...no? I'm very sure that Jerry doesn't use big words to show off, but to precisely voice himself. He writes like he does it for himself, not to show off. >They keep doing comics about children and being parents. Those comics aren't nerdy or game-related. Are nerds and gamers never parents? Are the ideal instances of such people single and young? They write and draw all kinds of other stuff that's not nerdy/vidya subjects, who cares if they do more personal subject matter like those? If you don't identify with it even if you don't have kids of your own, I don't know what to tell you. I personally think those comics are good and I'm not old, married, or a parent. >Undertale Who gives a shit? I liked the game, yet I agree with most of their feelings on it but I wish they didn't wholly reject it.
>>78655606 >>78659933 He still is, as far as I know. There's just far less posts because few people debate this, and the comic, with the possible exception of loss, faded out of relevance. >>78659689 Hilarious factoid, the 1960-1962 series of ultra-low-budget Popeye TV cartoons cranked out 220 episodes in its 2 year production run. If you calculate: > ((220 / 2) / 365) * 7 ≈ 2.11 you can see that this show had no less than two new shorts every single week, assuming a fixed rate. This indicates that Al Brodax's shoestring budget bastardization of the famous sailor has a more consistent release schedule than the average webcomic. And unlike some comics, they did not release cartoons as unfinished sketches or animatics when the animators were going on holiday.
>>78610709 You know the game doesn't give you shit for getting a Neutral ending. The Pacifist run is considered the best because people like it more, it's not considered objectively better by the game.
>>78623354 I would make some contrarian remark or throw a fit at this post, but I need to have some humility and admit that I would honestly do the same thing, in your position. I completely expected what happened to the game, though, and as a result, was afraid to play it. I still haven't touched it, and at this point I think I'll leave well enough alone. >>78623388 The fedorafag stereotype died 3 years ago, stop being so horrifically uncreative.
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