Is there anyone in the world that actually likes the new design better? Also, what's with the trend of turning classic comic book heroes black these days? It just seems kinda pointless and jarring. I mean do all the new color/sex change heroes even sell or is it just appeasing a certain group of notorious complainers?
This. I don't like minority characters replacing established characters. I'd rather have them given their own identity. Maybe work them as a sidekick or a partner.
Of the sexual variety.
It's not a redesign you fucking moron.
Karen still fucking exists and she's still power girl. The new girl co-exixts with her i the same way that Barry Allen co-exists with Jay Garrick.
Having read the proceeding books and knowing who she is, yes, I like the character.
Do I like her 'better'? Better than what? The other character THAT STILL FUCKING EXISTS AND IS STILL ONGOING IN OTHER BOOKS?
As I'm pretty sure I said the last two times you made this thread, I don't think I understand 'liking' characters in quite the same way you do. And quite possibly one of us needs professional help over it.
I don't mind Lucy Cage at all, she could be fun.
But I still want more of pre-52 solo series PeeGee.
Her previous ID crisis mini really helped define her character as someone not only away from her true home but painfully superfluous in this universe as well.
It was pretty damn hammy (fill my hole and all) but it mixed up the right amounts of comedy and drama.
It was a great reference point to build her solo series on and I was sad to see it go. Lighthearted silver-agey fun starring the invincible woman who struggles to build a life of her own.
Black guy here.
Agree 100%. I don't get the whole changing race thing either. Why not just do something with a black hero like Vixen?.......
There are plenty of black heroes, why not actually try to do something with them?
Because she is a female version of Power Man :^)
She literally worked with and got her powers directly from...you know what, nevermind. Assuming you're not baiting you're almost certainly never going to change your mind, so why do we bother having this discussion every. fucking. day. four. fucking. times. a fucking. day.
Even if you're right, you lost. It's over, man. It's fucking history. If that's so incredibly terrible, gargle a fucking bullet. Otherwise, can we just put this shit to bed already?
Meanwhile, Bumblebee goes unused and unwanted.
There's nothing wrong with legacy characters being minorities. It's only obnoxious when you turn a previously non-minority into a minority like you're fucking embarrassed by a character being white.
I find it a bit odd that you keep ranting about this 1 really big idiot arguing with you every day when it's probably multiple different people. The problem being that your assumption that it's the same 1 person constantly arguing with you would also make you a moron.
>I mean do all the new color/sex change heroes even sell
Ms.Marvel sells well in digital I heard.
It doesn't so much feel like they turned Power Girl black, as much as they turned her into a different fetish.
Her initial run in Teen Titans was okay, but she's one of those characters that are in stories but is rarely a focus in the story
>trend of turning white characters black
She just has the name dipshit, but whatever stay trying to stir up false controversy. I bet you drive by shitposted on this board too when Carol Danvers was 'turned into' Kamala Khan. In other words, fuck off.
Would you have this same stance if, say, Black Panther was "legacied" into a white woman? Or Storm?
I wouldn't find it offensive, I would just find it fucking stupid because it seems like a change purely made to be progressive.
Although let's be honest, changing anyone to a white person is "offensive" whereas changing a white person into a minority is "progressive"
Just leave character race alone. It's not interesting, impressive, or intellectual. It's just stupid race baiting attention whoring.
I made this thread because I saw someone cosplaying the character a few days ago. I tried to look up the character based on appearance, googled it, and the top of the news list is her newest rendition being black, Captain America being black, Thor being a woman, and how they should make Iron Man gay. There you have it.
>Its always this argument with Black Panther
Low level quality.
Legacy heroes limited by race is just dumb either way you put it. Using the 2 heroes from fucking Africa as an example won't change that.
Except White Power Girl and Black Power Girl exist at the same time.
Also Iron Man should be gay, he's already a giant faggot as it is so gaying him up wouldn't make one whit of difference.
As it has been stated, Karen is still around. My issue is we get a black Power Girl (in addition to Karen), but Rocket and Icon remain unused. Same with >>68545614. Not even a Static Shock ongoing with an actually good writer.
The only way female and minority characters can be more than C-list heroes is by kicking out white males and slapping those names on the new characters. It's insincere but I know it's to generate sales while diversifying and appeasing a more diverse reader base.
Comic buyers fall for the worst trends and ignore actually good characters and comics.
I liked her in giffen's doom patrol
So basically people here are no different than the "non reading SJW" they bitch about.
Jumping on something and trying to start a debate without actually having the info on whats happening.
Anyone who follows PG knows her status, going back months, and anyone who follows Teen Titans already knew about this and read about it.
>Would you have this same stance if, say, Black Panther was "legacied" into a white woman? Or Storm?
Yes, because I'm not retarded. All they need are strong ties to Wakanda or T'challa himself.
>Just leave character race alone. It's not interesting, impressive, or intellectual. It's just stupid race baiting attention whoring.
They are leaving it alone. Karen is still white.
Christ, she's even still Power Girl.
But there already is a white Black Panther
Its a shitty example. It always is. For one, Storm isn't a legacy character or a mantle, so she's out of the equation.
And BP is more of a cultural question than race. It'd be stupid for a black american to take the mantle too. So yeah, it'd be a bit silly, like the Silver Samurai passing down the mantle to some kid from Jersey or something. Stop being fucking stupid.
The thread's about her. And it's not as if I've heard of her before. If there were a passionate fanboy who thinks YES. THIS CHARACTER IS AWESOME, they'd jump at the chance to explain or sell me on her, or even post hot pictures of her ass.
Some of us don't read solicts anon.
I never once claimed I was offended. I'm not. I asked if anyone actually liked the changes. And no, I don't read comics anymore. Based on the kind of lame shit I've glanced over, I'm glad I don't.
I haven't read comics since I was about 12. You can have all of my old Gambit, X-Men, and Moon Knight comics if you want though. They're in storage somewhere.
>For one, Storm isn't a legacy character or a mantle, so she's out of the equation.
There is absolutely no reason she can't be. No super hero starts as a legacy character. And again, this doesn't address the actual argument. You can bet your ass people would be pissed if Storm were suddenly a white man.
>And BP is more of a cultural question than race. It'd be stupid for a black american to take the mantle too. So yeah, it'd be a bit silly, like the Silver Samurai passing down the mantle to some kid from Jersey or something.
It's cultural and race. You're being willfully ignorant to try and stress your point. You're pretending like these changes wouldn't be incredibly silly in reverse when the truth is that they are silly. They're done for no other reason than, as said, progressive attention whoring.
>Stop being fucking stupid.
Power Girl went back to Earth 2 undersiege. She's still around.
This new girl isn't PG racebent. A new character.
But oh no, we can't even used Static and Rocket anymore because DC is stupid.
I dunno, they'd take a lot of heat for doing it, but I could see it. It worked for Iron Fist, after all. Sort of. Problem is, aside from heroeing it made that like...almost the only aspect of his character. His whole character revolved around either punching people, or punching people to defend his right to still be Iron Fist.
If they ever wanted to do a serious story with Wakanda, I could see it, but the problem is anything involving Wakanda opening it's borders/joining the rest of the world would screw up everything. Like on the level of all the asgardians deciding to move to Midgard and mingle, or Reed going all 'Information yearns to be free!' and putting all his inventions under Creative Commons license.
Her taking a Kryptonian's title is offensive. If she's human she should have her OWN name. There are few Kryptonian's on earth and taking their roles in society only leads to further under-representation.
i'd rather them be doing something then doing nothing. but you can't just force these characters to do something you gotta get a writer who wants to use them
where is my Black and Blue ongoing
I said it the first time the news broke, and I'll say it again: the fact that Karen's alive and well means that this passing of the torch is already far above the current high water mark for legacies. And that statement is even more true today than it was in August.
I could actually see that. "What? Take the shield back? Uh...tell you what, you keep it for a year or two. I was just my grandfather for long enough to know that now that I'm young again I kind of don't want the responsibility for a bit. Plus, y'know, flying seems pretty cool. I want to try that."
there is as many black girls in DC being unused as there are blonde girls
>I don't like minority characters replacing established characters.
Black anon here, previously I didn't care about this because it was the only real way for minority characters to get out there. You know no one gives a fuck about new characters, I don't give a fuck about new characters, you don't give a fuck about new characters.
I agree with you now though. The argument that's often brought up to defend racebending is "Why does it matter if the personality is the same?" but a better argument against racebending is "What's the point?". If the character is white and their race doesn't matter, why change it after 50+ years?
There are some established characters though that if they were changed to being a minority it would be interesting (not really better though).
Like, if Steve Rogers was a black man, that would give his patriotism and love for America a lot more depth because he'd have to deal with racism. Steve shouldn't be changed to a black main in mainline continuity though, he's been around since 1941 that'd be fucking retarded.
You're completely right, The Big 2 don't really need new characters though.
Power Girl is missing so she is replaced? Barry went missing (assumed dead, but actually wasn't!) when Wally took over. Same with Dick and Batman and Superman and the entire multiple Supermen arc and blah blah. Legacy characters replace non-dead/retired heroes all the time.
Storm is a mutant who just happened to have powers. There's nothing to be passed down.
You'd have to create a character who's also a mutant, with her powerset, and then have him/her 'replace' Storm somehow. Its not as simple as wearing a certain costume or some shit.
The only X-Men who's kinda worked as a legacy is Wolverine, due to the many offspring/Weapon X copies running around.
Yeah, the codenames have become kind of a cultural thing for mutants. Almost all of them have one, even if they aren't heroes/villains.
Having a legacy for Storm or Nightcrawler or whoever would be weird.
I'm just happy to know that Hispanics and Asians are exactly the same as black people and should praise a company whenever they make a white character black. That is a win for all minorities.
Its culture man.
You fucked up and used the 2 characters that are steeped in "Being from Africa", and the only one with a working Legacy premise is from a place that is very stiff with outsiders.
This is why that stupid analogy never works. MOST of all these recent changes are American characters, and the demographics make it a bit more likely that "Random person in urban city" might be a minority.
Again, you're better off trying to compare it to Falcon or something.
I agree with you, but it's a bit sad that it's basically impossible to win in this scenario. What kind of amazing design would have to be made for a new black superhero to really stand out enough these days to actually make it?
Because otherwise the only way to try and "solve" the issue is to have black characters take up traditionally white mantles. It's really an issue of comic book readers being hesitant to give newer heroes enough time to really flesh out.
>you will never have a harem of inter-dimensional cousins that want to bang you
Why God why
Yeah, I know.
I was ignoring that.
It's really institutionalized racism combined with the fact we often don't give new heroes a chance, but it can be done, and hopefully one day I'll be successful at it.
Shut the fuck up, what he said applies to all minorities characters.
Exactly. We also massively abused Chinese and Japanese immigrants for years. Fuck, they turn Wally half black to add some diversity but forget that by doing this whole fucking ordeal they killed off his korean wife and two half korean kids. But no one gives a shit about the chinks!
Hulkling, Wiccan, the new power man, ect ect.
Good characters, with good artists and writers, and I'm on board no mater what the pantone of skin color is.
However I gave up on most nu 52 titles after a bout of gail simone, static abuse and food poisoning, and have no clue who the hell the new girl is. Just some random kryptonian?
It really kind of is. I would love to see Steve have some time off to decompress and live his life. He basically lost 50+ years frozen and then spent the time since being slammed by responsibility and one emergency after another. If I got suddenly old and then became young again...yeah, I'd re-evaluate. I mean, it's Steve, if there was an emergency you know he'd step up and do his part, but he's man enough to admit he's not the only one capable of shouldering all the responsibilities he took on.
Legacies should be able to work around an use any race.
Actual race swaps like Wally tend to be white/black because they tend to be able to share the same names. Not that its impossible for Asian Wally West, it just means he's probably mixed.
Patience. That's the problem, though. Look at teen heroes. Most of the popular ones are legacy characters but after time they crafted their own identities and got fans because they have been around for a long time.
The Big 2 don't have that patience to keep a character built up so that they can stand on their own. If they consistently dedicated their stories to adding to minority characters rather than making new ones or assigning them popular heroes' names then there'd be more that had their own identity.
Blue Beetle (Jaime) and Static could be those characters, but instead they get shafted with bad writing and ignored because of it.
Because they are the more visible, asian or hispanic in comic book look white 75% of the time.
It's not. Why would you assume it's bait? Is it because I don't read comics anymore and that absolutely shocks you or is it because I had the audacity to read Moon Knight comics when I was a little boy?
in the comics Dick wasn't running around as Batman when Bruce was in the comics, at least until he came back at least. Peeg and Black Power are still both around, Peeg is even in several, even more books than Black Power
the MOST annoying thing about this isn't her race, or her 'appropriation of the name' crap, it's that she
fucking looks like mickey mouse.
I mean if they do ever have that shot (that every hero has at some point) of
her silhouette as she is in shadow, it will look fucking ridiculous
I'm pretty sure most people just forgot she was asian for a long time, including the colorists and artists. Or maybe they just can't draw anything but caucasian features because that's what they're practiced with.
>almost every superhero in the world is American
I appreciate the rare comic that shows other countries having active cape communities and the rarer comic where they aren't shit.
It's a hairstyle.
Natural hair is in right now.
they also rarely make Arabs actually look Arab, but more like Africans
>White character gets temporarily replaced by white legacy character
>Some people are mad about it, most are pretty chill or even like the new person better (DickBats, Wally West, etc)
>White character gets replaced by black legacy character
>WHITE CHARACTERS ARE UNDER ATTACK THEY USED TO BE 99% OF SUPERHEROES NOW THEY ARE 97%
Like, ignoring that they have to literally do things the way they've always done them (They don't), you're moving the goalposts a lot. First it's what the "universe" believes happened, now it's relative to how many comics they're in. There's a million GLs running around at all times and they're all legacy characters, don't see why that's a problem. It's not like they haven't had characters hold the same title simultaneously in different comics. Barry and Jay are running around even though Barry is Jay's legacy character with the exact same hero title. This was the case Pre-crisis with Wally and Jay, too.
Wally was around for 30 years before replacing Barry and Dick was around for like 60. These weren't sudden additions made almost entirely, transparently, because DC is embarrassed that they don't have enough niggers running around.
I'm not really on /co/ so much as just in this one thread that I made, and I already explained why I made it. I'm more interested in the actual social/political side of these comics than the comics themselves. Don't worry, I won't be back after this thread dies. I just like having the occasional discussion with ragingly angry caustic nerds.
>There's a million GLs running around at all times and they're all legacy characters
uh no they're not, they're a team of space police. it'd be like saying that every police man is apart of some legacy. everyone who isn't the in comic media always refers to them by their name. Batman calls Hal and Guy, Hal and Guy, but they don't refer to him as Bruce, but as Batman
I dunno, but they shouldn't be distressed by the fact that Wally or Peej was white. Wally literally specifically represented middle america, but they turned him into an inner city hoodlum street criminal who hates authority figures and was ditched by his dad when he was born. Now that's actually embarrassing.
I like how the old design had that solid white negative space and was so sleek and simple. But I disliked how some artists exaggerated the keyhole to shit until it just looked silly. The size of this one is better, but it's only a matter of time before subsequent artists make embiggen it to show everything but her nipples, as well.
Consistency. Now answer mine. If race doesn't matter, why would you care about 97% of their superheroes being white? Them being white should not be detrimental to your enjoyment of their comics or the hero. Unless you are racist.
Of course red is the superior hair color
>tfw the most well know redhead super-heroin is only know because she die every month and is possessed by a giant fire bird
We need more redhead heroin, why so racist big 2?
I'm not disagreeing that what they did to Wally was shit. First of all, they changed everything but the name. Second of all, they made the DC Universe more "diverse" by adding a black character with black stereotypes.
If they changed Karen, they did it way back in Mr. Terrific #1 at the beginning of the reboot. This new character is not Karen. It's a legacy character.
Legacy characters almost always revert to the "original," so why not enjoy this temporary version on its own merits (if she's written well-- I dunno, I'm not reading whatever she's in) instead of complaining about race when it's not even the issue here?
>Try being a bit more subtle.
About what? Are you denying that this board is filled with ragingly angry caustic nerds? Because it is. I mean, I'm nerdy too, but about different shit.
You guys are assholes. This is obvious. Like 80% of 4chan is about being an asshole.
You're just upset that the most popular African character DC has is Gorilla Grodd.
Define "bait". If you mean I intentionally crafted this thread to get angry replies and had no genuine interest in the responses, that's wrong. It's just that you guys get mad about everything. It's expected. I at least get honesty here.
I've got no problem with a new legacy character being a minority. All for it, really. I just wish they'd care about minorities that aren't black people when they're doing all the race insertion.
I'm mostly pissed about character changes and erasures surrounding Wally more than him being black even if him being black makes all th changes to him hilariously racist. And also the inevitable time when his power becomes superspeed even more shortsightedly racist.
I honestly would not have a problem with the new design IF IT WEREN'T FOR THOSE STUPID FUCKING SHIT BALLS ON HER HAIR!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH! SHIT!!!! THEY'RE SO FUCKING UGLY!!!
>trying this hard to be intentionally obtuse and play around obvious pointless "progressive" changes
Really, it's not that people care that the character is black. They care that they're usually changed for no real reason or they're changed for some retarded diversity quota(which is, in itself, racist).
And these aren't really new characters since they're essentially using an old design. They're just a variation.
Damn this is like the 3rd thread today. So why'd people wait until today to get assblasted over this and not months ago when she took over?
Let me guess, faggots don't actually read the comic and just found out.
>Implying there is a clear distinction between Arab and white
>Implying I said race doesn't matter
>Implying there is only one sense of the word "matter"
If certain races are routinely underrepresented, whether on purpose or through latent systemic processes, then race matters.
When people say "race doesn't matter," they typically mean "people shouldn't be judged on their race," not "lol who cares if one race gets everything that doesn't seem like a problem to me lol you think race matters?"
>It's just that you guys get mad about everything
It's just that we have thread like that every fucking time, Ultimae spider-man is black, we have thread like that,Thor became a woman, we have thread like that, Falcon became Captain America, we have thread like that etc..
And they are always started by people who don't read comics, because if they did they would know that shit like that happen all the time.
So yes people will get mad in thread like that because they are tired of those thread and also can't stop taking the fucking bait.
>Really, it's not that people care that the character is black.
Thats exactly what it is though.
Its a new character at that. We're not even dealing with a Wally scenario. I only see people get this worked up over Legacy heroes when they're minorities, or when its a big gun like Batman/Spiderman changing.
No one would be asking "why did they change this???" if PG just passed the title to a younger blonde.
i'm saying that the "its going to happen anyway" mentality is total bullshit. we wouldn't have known if there would have been any type of legacy for Peeg, she's an almost 40 year old character and had no such successor ever and could have most defiantly gone another without one
Setting aside everything else about this character:
Why the shitty halfjacket?
Why would anyone ever do this even once? And someone having done it once, why would anyone ever do it again?
>If certain races are routinely underrepresented, whether on purpose or through latent systemic processes, then race matters.
If you care that certain races are not as present in comics, you are being racist. The "race"(which doesn't actually exist and is more of a loose guideline that people use) of a character shouldn't matter to you unless you are a racist. So the only way you can take umbrage with 97% of characters being white is if you are a racist.
>When people say "race doesn't matter," they typically mean "people shouldn't be judged on their race," not "lol who cares if one race gets everything that doesn't seem like a problem to me lol you think race matters?"
Oh weird, so you speak for everyone who makes the statement "race doesn't matter" and determine the exact level that they mean when they say it doesn't matter?
You basically just said "Race doesn't matter, except when I care about it or I see some kind of racial imbalance, and then race matters. So essentially, race always matters because I am always on the lookout for racial imbalance. I am a moron and a hypocrite".
>That time Kyle replaced Hal and everyone was fine
>That time Azrael replaced Batman and everyone was cool with it
>That time Doctor Octopus replaced Spider-Man and nobody was bothered
>That time four guys replaced Superman and people were only and exclusively upset about the black guy
White people are the only people that complain about minority characters being given the mantle of a white character. Well, they complain the most. Not that most of these characters are ever written very well. Minorities don't even care, this is suppose to be what gets them into comics anyways. It's about tapping new markets, masked as progression. I don't care. I'm gonna write a story about an old boxer that punches tornadoes controlled by this mad scientist. Only feels right the boxer would be black.
Thats what I said anon.
> I only see people get this worked up over Legacy heroes when they're minorities, or when its a big gun like Batman/Spiderman changing.
>Thats exactly what it is though.
It's not. As I explained, the people who complain aren't complaining about her being black. They're complaining about a character being modified or created to meet some idiotic diversity quota or to appear progressive. It happens all the fucking time. It's annoying.
I don't speak for everyone, but in my case my umbrage isn't that she's black. I would be just as annoyed if she were asian, transgender, or some other obnoxious attention seeking garbage. I'm just tired of it.
>why the fuck did they name that nigga "Mr.Terrific"?
He's a legacy character of the original Mr. Terrific from the Golden Age. A black legacy character replacing a white dude. Nobody got angry because it's only racist to replace white characters you grew up with with black characters, and everybody reading comics in the '40s is too dead to be racist.
Yeah, superhero publishers could stand to have more East-Asian, South Asian, North American Aboriginal, and Australian Aboriginal characters. Blacks have the highest representation after whites, even if they are far behind.
>Argument from tradition
>It hasn't happened in the past, so it should never happen after that!
>One thing I don't understand, why the fuck did they name that nigga "Mr.Terrific"?
He's named after the original Mr. Terrific.
>>That time Kyle replaced Hal and everyone was fine
Hal went evil and there needed to be a hero GL to replace him
>>That time Azrael replaced Batman and everyone was cool with it
no one believed for a second that was going to be forever, everyone knew he was clearly going to go mad and someone would have to stop him
>>That time Doctor Octopus replaced Spider-Man and nobody was bothered
>>That time four guys replaced Superman and people were only and exclusively upset about the black guy
Superman was dead there being several guys trying to replace him makes sense and is cool
>Yeah, superhero publishers could stand to have more East-Asian, South Asian, North American Aboriginal, and Australian Aboriginal characters. Blacks have the highest representation after whites, even if they are far behind.
Earth-2 had all of those!
But now it's on fire.
If you say "race doesn't matter to me", then the race of a superhero shouldn't matter to you regardless of representation. If the only thing that can allow you to relate to a superhero is if they share a skin color with you, you are a racist. This is not apartheid. Black comic book fans are not in some starving fucking ghetto. These are drawings.
Only thing I don't like is the hairstyle (because living in ATL I've never seen a black with that look)
her character description I saw Rich Genius Miss Perfect which is an automatic red flag
>They're complaining about a character being modified or created to meet some idiotic diversity quota or to appear progressive
This basically means ANY new character who just happens to be some sort of minority is filling a quota. Without fail people will say this.
There ARE instances where its fucking stupid, like with Wally, but this shit happens every single time a new character pops up that isn't white and gets the slightest bit of attention from some website or something.
>>Argument from tradition
>>It hasn't happened in the past, so it should never happen after that!
no there is no reason for it to happen. Peeg also isn't a character i want there to be thousands of different people being either. i love her the way she is
>White people are the only people that complain about minority characters being given the mantle of a white character.
That's because lately it's mostly white characters being blackwashed or however you want to word it. The reverse rarely happens anymore and only usually happens in film(like Avatar).
Trust me, minorities bitch just as much about whitewashing.
No you don't. You have an idealized image of her built from your fap gallery and possibly (though I doubt it) the Conner/P&G Power Girl run.
If you loved her the way she was, well, you'd like a lot of awful shit.
>It's just that you guys get mad about everything.
People here are generally mad because people like you start threads wanting to discuss comic book heroes, but don't actually read comics. You don't care about the quality of the characters or the stories being told, just the political implications.
>> I only see people get this worked up over Legacy heroes when they're minorities, or when its a big gun like Batman/Spiderman changing.
That's completely fucking retarded though?
All the characters people care about being replaced are the big gun characters, by minorities or otherwise. Like what the fuck are you saying, Captain America, Thor and Power Girl aren't big gun characters? The entire thing that makes a legacy character a legacy character is that they're replacing someone who's a big enough deal for anyone to give a shit about.
About the only time people don't give a shit about legacy replacements is when it's A. a sidekick who's been around for ages after the hero dies like a champion, like Bucky or Wally West, or B. Miles Morales because everyone thinks he's great
>These mental gymnastics
Yes, race is mostly a social construct. However, if it is evident that certain races are systematically underrepresented, it's not racist to point it out and want to correct it. To do so is to realize that discrimination is happening on the basis of a trait not inherent to one's merit. To correct this is the opposite of racism.
If you recognize that race is mostly a construct, how do you rationalize differential outcomes for people of different races being due to anything BUT some form of racism? If you think whites dominating in nearly every sphere is "natural," then you must think they have a natural proclivity to dominate and have visibility in desirable roles. Which would be racist.
I don't mind new heroes being black, I just hate inconsistency or needless change. By all means, make a slew of new black heroes or asian heroes or whatever else to meet market interest. I know it's harder to do that and maintain interest, but I'm just tired of seeing the originals shat all over with progressive bullshit.
>You don't care about the quality of the characters or the stories being told, just the political implications.
That's correct. If you aren't interested in discussing the political implications surrounding the character or the design of the newer rendition of the character, you could just ignore my thread.
But again, you guys are assholes and you can't just keep your mouth shut and ignore things you don't like. So you get indignant. Then you whine and bitch about how much you can't stand certain things being discussed when it's perfectly within your power to completely ignore the thread and go on with your day. And then somehow you blame me for wanting to discuss a specific aspect of comics.
The only person to be mad with is yourself at your childish inability to move on from things that don't interest you or you don't think should be discussed.
>take a comic book male hero and make them female; alternatively take a female comic book hero and make them an ethnic/religious minority
>stir up nerd outrage for controversy (read: attention); if outrage isn't forthcoming then magnify the minor anger, or outright fabricate
>small spike in sales for the #1 issue, rave reviews from cookie-cutter websites and cookie-cutter bloggers
>series sales drop off the face of the planet following #2
>still getting your ass kicked 10:1 by Adventure Time and My Little Pony
>rinse and repeat
Are people even upset or convinced otherwise, anymore? I'm surprised that every few years we seem to have a new generation of fresh-faced newcomers ready to get angry at change in comics, or angry at people "who hate progress" or whatever.
>Hal went evil and there needed to be a hero GL to replace him
Because writers made him evil so that a hero GL could replace him. It didn't just "happen." These people aren't real.
>no one believed for a second that was going to be forever, everyone knew he was clearly going to go mad and someone would have to stop him
But everybody believes Karen will be GONE FOREVER for some reason.
>Superman was dead there being several guys trying to replace him makes sense and is cool
Oh, so the answer is that nobody would care about the replacement if we killed Karen off. I guess that's what we should had done. Nobody ever gets buttmad when you kill a white character and replace them with a black Morales.
>Nobody ever gets buttmad when you kill a white character and replace them with a black Morales.
Remember when everyone complained that the new Ghost Rider was a minority? Oh, that didn't happen? Maybe it was because the new character had actual character, unlike Morales?
In all fairness, it'd be considered natural more because most of the content creators are white. Just like how most manga and anime is centered around Japanese people. Content creators just write/draw from what they know, man, I agree that it creates a same-y feeling palette (why else do you think everyone wears spandex of a certain color?) and can benefit from mixing it up but you shouldn't be surprised.
Keep in mind I'm only talking about comics here, I don't want to go into a political argument about the effects of colonialism and corporate globalism, this is /co/.
I never said I can only relate to representations of certain races. If only some races are represented, and we take race to be independent of one's merit or character, that shows that racism is occurring, whether it be unconscious or deliberate.
The analogy between being an apologist for Apartheid and an apologist for certain races being underrepresented in fiction does not require the extremity of the situations to be the same, so it doesn't matter that "black comic-book fans are not starving" (though black Americans ARE, relative to whites, impoverished, but that's beside the point). The point of relevance that makes the analogy sound is that you are claiming that correcting a racial imbalance is somehow racist because it includes acknowledging the construct of race, which is pants-on-head retarded.
>Yes, race is mostly a social construct.
It is absolutely 100% a social construct. There is no single way to prove "whiteness" or "blackness". There is no measurement or criteria one must meet. Race is a loose general concept based on physical similarity. It has no defining parameters.
>However, if it is evident that certain races are systematically underrepresented, it's not racist to point it out and want to correct it.
Actually, it is. By the mere act of acknowledging race as a valid concept, you are invalidating your own claim that "race doesn't matter". That you count the number of "white" superheroes and specifically pay attention to their representation means that race matters to you. You are being a blatant hypocrite.
>To do so is to realize that discrimination is happening on the basis of a trait not inherent to one's merit.
You are making an assumption that a lack of accurate race distribution based on US population in comic book heroes is indicative of inherent racism when you have no reason to do so. What racism is being committed by having more white superheroes than black? What racism is being "cured" by including more black superheroes?
>how do you rationalize differential outcomes for people of different races being due to anything BUT some form of racism?
Because people do what they feel like doing? Why would you make the assumption that it's racism causing it?
If I'm a white comic book artist, and I decide to make a white super hero...am I being a racist? Am I part of this enormous problem? Is the only way for me to be racially absolved to make a minority superhero?
No. That's fucking ridiculous. You're making an assumption that these artists are racist simply because they happened to not give their character black skin. That is beyond silly.
>This basically means ANY new character who just happens to be some sort of minority is filling a quota. Without fail people will say this.
This. Fucking this so much.
When White Terra replaced White Terra, nobody complained about maintaining the white quota. "Clearly, they needed a new white character to replace the old white character to make sure that they didn't have a deficiency of white characters! It's a QUOTA!"
The problem with all that shit is instead of making new heroes, they fuck with the established ones. Creative bankruptcy isn't the mosy genuine olive branch I can think off and all it does is piss dedicated fans off.
>no there is no reason for it to happen.
Guess what? There's no reason for DC Comics to even publish comics. The world would get on fine without them.
There was no reason to introduce a black Power Girl? Well, there was no reason to keep a white one. There's no reason not to make Hal Jordan the Microwave Lantern.
You are trying to make your position the "standard" or null hypothesis, and demanding justification from any deviation from it, whilst shielding your position from similar scrutiny, when it has no more of a basis than any other.
Alan was the first Green Lantern and he wasn't part of a team of space police. The space police came years later, and when Kyle became the new Green Lantern, it was in an explicit legacy role as the green lantern corps had been 100% destroyed at that point.
>Because writers made him evil so that a hero GL could replace him. It didn't just "happen." These people aren't real.
it happened because his city was destroyed by Cyborg Superman because they wanted more drama to go on in the fallout of Death of Superman and to lead into the soft reboot Zero Hour
>But everybody believes Karen will be GONE FOREVER for some reason.
i don't. i think replacing her out of the blue with someone who barely knew her, who's costume doesn't resembles hers already doesn't do the justice for the character as she's just "the replacement" not some new hero with lots of potential. if she had a different name i'd be completely okay because it doesn't feel like they're making her for some controversy
>Oh, so the answer is that nobody would care about the replacement if we killed Karen off. I guess that's what we should had done. Nobody ever gets buttmad when you kill a white character and replace them with a black Morales.
Morales coming right after Peter died was too soon honestly
All I got from your post is "Tiny Hal Jordan should be canon" and frankly that's a point I can get behind
>If only some races are represented, and we take race to be independent of one's merit or character, that shows that racism is occurring, whether it be unconscious or deliberate.
No, it doesn't. You are a fucking idiot.
>The point of relevance that makes the analogy sound is that you are claiming that correcting a racial imbalance is somehow racist because it includes acknowledging the construct of race, which is pants-on-head retarded.
Actually it's completely logical. If race doesn't matter to you, why would you ever consider an "imbalance" a problem? Race is irrelevant, so naturally the makeup of a particular group or how diverse they are is irrelevant. If 99% of people are "white" and 1% are "latino", why does it matter if race doesn't matter? You cannot make the statement "race doesn't matter" and then turn around and say that it does if representation isn't perfectly even.
Again, you either acknowledge that race does matter and that you are a racist, or you admit that you're a hypocrite and a moron. Your call.
>Oh, that didn't happen?
Yes it did actually. It happened a good bit, it just got drowned out by people complaining about Ghost Rider driving a car because it was the more visible element. The people who complain about stuff like this rarely actually read the comics and ANGR's skull face made it so you couldn't immediately tell he wasn't white. Still a number of people that complained about it though, just less because it didn't get in the news and wasn't as major of a character.
>In all fairness, it'd be considered natural more because most of the content creators are white. Just like how most manga and anime is centered around Japanese people.
But there is a difference between countries of heterogeneous immigrant populations and homogeneous countries. If these stories are primarily based in the U.S., why shouldn't they look more like the U.S.'s population?
Japan is pretty much all ethnically East-Asian, so it makes sense that that's what comics taking place in Japan look like.
Also, if you're chalking up the dominance of whites in comics to the dominants of whites writing comics, then why aren't we asking why those people are all white? Or why a lot of occupations have higher concentrations of white people, with the occupations having higher concentrations of minorities being the lower-paying ones?
Hawkgirl was the only one you mentioned that was actually raceswapped, and she wasn't raceswapped to black. All the rest are completely different characters.
Obama isn't a "blackwashed" version of George Bush just because he held the title of PotUS after him.
>why shouldn't they look more like the U.S.'s population?
because it should be the artist's choice if they want to do something, they shouldn't feel obligated to change something they didn't intend to make a certain way originally
>If these stories are primarily based in the U.S., why shouldn't they look more like the U.S.'s population?
Because black urban youths don't commonly become comic book artists? I don't know. Where the fuck are all of the minority comic book creators and comic book fans? Blame them, don't insist that the creators meet some random quota just because you want things perfectly distributed for no real discernable reason.
Ms. Marvel, yes. Cap and Thor, no. The Cap and Thor announcements happened after most of the non-comic readers that get outraged about stuff like this had forgotten he even existed.
But holy shit that might have been the worst week in /co/ history. Thor, Captain Falcon, and Archie Dies Saving Gay Friend all getting announced one after the other broke the board. The Miles announcement was bad, but even that wasn't on the level of the week that /pol/ lost their collective shit over shit they don't care about.
>But holy shit that might have been the worst week in /co/ history.
Actually I take that back. End of Korra season 1 was pretty bad, though that was more "oh god 80% of the board is korra threads" than "50% of the board is /pol/tier shitposting."
>it's perfectly within your power to completely ignore the thread and go on with your day
I'm honestly only still around because I thought this thread was going to get deleted pretty quick. You know, with the whole discussing political implications on a comics and cartoons board instead of a board that is centered around politics. You're absolutely right, I could ignore this thread and carry on a happy existence. But at what other opportunity to I get like this to complain and shitpost?
>That's why Western Europe was at war for most of his history and it took two world war to stop that.
do you really think everywhere else in the world was peaceful?
Europeans just were able to write down their history and make better technology for better weapons. with greatness comes with great evil sadly
>You know, with the whole discussing political implications on a comics and cartoons board instead of a board that is centered around politics.
It's directly related to comics. Of course it won't get deleted.
>You're absolutely right, I could ignore this thread and carry on a happy existence. But at what other opportunity to I get like this to complain and shitpost?
Literally every thread on 4chan, if you wanted.
Its just easier for young fags to scream SJW invasion.
>By the mere act of acknowledging race as a valid concept, you are invalidating your own claim that "race doesn't matter".
Who said I was acknowledging race as a valid concept? I was acknowledging that people get differential outcomes based on a concept that is not very valid. As in, I was pointing out discrimination. Pointing it out isn't being a hypocrite.
>You are making an assumption that a lack of accurate race distribution based on US population in comic book heroes is indicative of inherent racism when you have no reason to do so.
You do realize that not all racism is deliberate and intended, right? Seriously, it's like I'm speaking to someone who lacks even a cursory understanding of the topic.
Latent structural and systemic filters affect the outcomes of people of different "races," even when there is no specific intent to disadvantage them, due to historical reasons.
Why are minorities impoverished? When it comes to wealth, inheritance matters. Who your grandparents were, matters.
Why are minorities over-represented in jails? Disadvantaged people are more likely to be arrested for crime, even if the cop isn't racist.
Many implicit bias tests have shown that the majority of people, due to being steeped in our culture, have a bias against minorities and toward blacks. "White" is considered the "default," minorities are the "others." There's a wealth of literature on this.
You don't draw any connection between the entire history of race in the US and the current socio-economic state, and the fact that whites dominate in the media and are the standard?
>If I'm a white comic book artist, and I decide to make a white super hero...am I being a racist? Am I part of this enormous problem?
You don't seem to understand the distinction between individual and social issues. No, you may not be racist yourself when you make a white character, but you're perpetuating structural racism when you contribute to the exclusion of minorities.
Maybe it's to appeal to the loudest minority. I don't literally mean the loudest (even though blacks are, fuck you I'm racist whatevs), but rather the one who makes their voice most heard.
It makes most sense to just keep the character the same race as they were, but stir up the personality a little. However if they do choose to go that route, change the character into the largest minority of American minorities...which is Hispanic.
But will they do that? NOOOO....because Hispanics apparently don't bitch enough about it.
It's all about the bitching my friend.
It's not so much representing your country's demographics, but just a bad habit stemming from doodling as a kid and creating people like yourself or people you know. I mean I know I sure as hell drew tons of "skinny white guy" OC characters as a kid because that's what I was.
And I'm pretty sure no one is against more diverse comic creators. They can make diverse characters that really stand out like Felipe Smith's Robbie Reyes (All-New Ghost Rider) mostly because they are that background and know how to write/draw that kind of character. It's just that "why aren't there more non-white comic authors?" is question that doesn't have an easy answer that stems from a lot of different factors. But I believe we're making good progress in that regard, the big 2 have more diverse writers than you give them credit for.
White Power Girl has bigger tits, so she is superior. Glad we settled that.
>it happened because his city was destroyed by Cyborg Supermam
Yes, because writers had Mongul and Cyborg Superman destroy Hal's city so that they could make him evil so that they could introduce a new Green Lantern. How is this relevant?
>i don't. i think replacing her out of the blue with someone who barely knew her, who's costume doesn't resembles hers already doesn't do the justice for the character as she's just "the replacement" not some new hero with lots of potential. if she had a different name i'd be completely okay because it doesn't feel like they're making her for some controversy
Did Kyle Rayner know Hal Jordan? Were there costumes identical?
If DC knows this will cause controversy, it's because they know people get buttmad over replacing characters with characters of a different race. That's not DC's fault.
>Morales coming right after Peter died was too soon honestly
How long did it take for the replacement Supermen to appear after Superman dies?
There are canon black Kryptonians thanks to Vathlo. There has never been, to my knowledge, any instance of asian-looking kryptonians. Most are white with the one island of blacks.
Miles Morales? Robbie Reyes? Jamie Reyes? Sam Alexander? Plenty of fairly recently made hispanic legacies. Hell, even Kyle Rayner was hispanic until he got white washed overtime.
Realizing that, because people treat race as if it is real, people receive unfair outcomes based on their assigned race, and wanting to correct that, is not racism.
Your argument relies on repeating that recognizing an injustice is itself an injustice. This argument has been corrected a hundred times in this thread, but it's still being repeated.
Again, nobody has shown my analogy not to be apt. If you think correcting racial imbalances isn't right, then you think recognizing Apartheid as a racial injustice isn't right.
I want to put my face between her breast and just fall asleep. Man that would be the coziest pillows ever.
Once I saw a mom with HUGE boobies and her baby was crying. So she put the baby's face in-between her breasts until he cried so much it smothered him to sleep. And despite the somewhat disturbing action on the mother's part I thought to myself:
"Man....that must be the life...."
kyle didn't get white washed
Hispanics are just white
I meant transforming one race to a Hispanic, not the misrepresentation of Hispanics at all in comics.
....unless they ARE race swap examples...in which case it makes you wonder if these swaps occur so often, why not just do it for each race for each character?
>As in, I was pointing out discrimination. Pointing it out isn't being a hypocrite.
This would be true, but you've done absolutely nothing to support the argument that actual discrimination or racism is occurring. Literally your only argument in support of this is "There are too many white superheroes and that means there is racism occurring", which is a terrible argument that I've already refuted multiple times. So even if you try to go the "I don't acknowledge race myself, I just see discrimination occurring based on the concept of race", you still fail.
>You do realize that not all racism is deliberate and intended, right?
And you do realize that even representation is not a good indication that racism is not occurring, right? That even distribution is not some cure for racism. That it's not even remotely relevant to anything and it's just some stupid ideal that politically correct people tend to cling to as some ultimate goal as if perfect representation is some magic key to end racial divides.
Again you need to explain: WHY does it matter that 97%(made up number, of course) of superheroes are white if race doesn't matter to you and you're simply concerned about racism? Why is the fact that more white superheroes exist indicative of racism of any kind? Your entire argument relies on this point, and thus far you've done nothing to explain it.
>Seriously, it's like I'm speaking to someone who lacks even a cursory understanding of the topic.
I should be saying this to you. You have an infantile understanding of race, racism, and discrimination.
>You do realize that not all racism....etc etc
All of this is completely irrelevant to what we're discussing. We're not discussing poverty and race and all of those points have nothing to do with comic book character race representation or your original point.
>even Kyle Rayner was hispanic until he got white washed overtime
>Hawkgirl was the only one you mentioned that was actually raceswapped, and she wasn't raceswapped to black.
Kendra Saunders was ALWAYS hispanic, she was just drawn as white more often than not.
>Blame poor black people for not pulling themselves from their bootstraps and rising to positions of visibility in order to change systems
>Oh yeah, and white people can't make black characters
>There is no discernible reason for one single race not to dominate visible media roles and be considered the default
>You don't seem to understand the distinction between individual and social issues. No, you may not be racist yourself when you make a white character, but you're perpetuating structural racism when you contribute to the exclusion of minorities.
So basically, I am both morally in the clear and morally damned for simply making a fictional character who shares my own skin color. How enlightening. I am also apparently socially obligated to make a minority as a white person or else I am apparently contributing to keeping people with other skin color "down" because they can in no way relate to or look up to my white superhero.
What you're trying to argue is that even though I'm not racist for making a characters skin my own color, I am contributing to institutional racism by making the character since so many other comic book artists also happen to be white and also happen to make white characters and that, for some reason, needs to be changed. That somehow racism will stop and poverty will stop of comic book artists just force themselves to make minority characters.
How about this: if minorities feel it is an enormous disadvantage that there are so many white comic book authors and superheroes, they can become artists and make their own superheroes. Absolutely nothing is stopping them from acquiring the skills to do so. Blacks are not artistically challenged.
This is a particularly hilarious example of racist dudes jerking off about how comics are forcing out the white man, because this character was introduced oh about 6 months ago? They're just following news trends, not reading books. Exactly what they accuse SJWs of.
/co/ has had these threads before, and for the most part no one cared because it was fucking obvious. PG was still around and active in other books, and she's from Earth-2 to begin with so who fucking cares?
>"They shouldn't be forced to meet a quota"
>company creates character because they choose to
>"They're only doing it to pander"
So basically, it just goes back to what was earlier. No way of winning with new characters.
This is the state of /co/
These are the people that populate the board
You have no one to blame but yourselves
Legacy heroes have been a thing at DC since literally the 50s. How is this still a discussion we are having?
Past the Trinity, DC's adherence to Legacy characters is the central tenet of their universe and one of it's most appealing qualities. This will never stop. There will always be a new character that will take over the role of an older one. They will inevitably either outgrow the role or will be replaced by their predecessor again.
If this is an issue for you, then why are you reading DC Comics? If it's not an issue for you, then why does it matter that Tanya is black?
The US love affair with blacks continues. Blacks continue to be overrepresented and hispanics and asians underrepresented. It's not as bad in comic books as it is in TV because changing characters happens much more slowly, but they're working on it.
Completely wrong. No way of creating a character that /pol/ won't bitch about. There absolutely is a way of winning, and that's making strong compelling characters and stories that people are willing to pay money for.
This is not easy, but it can be done.
>Realizing that, because people treat race as if it is real, people receive unfair outcomes based on their assigned race, and wanting to correct that, is not racism.
First you have to prove they're receiving some unfair outcome, which has not been demonstrated. There being more white superheroes than non-white is not indicative of discrimination or racism. You are making a stupid assumption and repeatedly refusing to validate it. "More white superheroes exist, therefore racism is occurring" is not a valid logical conclusion.
>Your argument relies on repeating that recognizing an injustice is itself an injustice.
It is not. I'm pointing out that you're simultaneously making a claim "I don't care about race", and then turning around and making a completely illogical assertion based on racial distribution which proves you to be a racist. I am not calling you a hypocrite based on calling out discrimination, I am calling you a hypocrite because you are calling out perceived discrimination where there is none based upon a very racist observation(there are more white people, so racism is occurring).
>If you think correcting racial imbalances isn't right
That you think diversity quotas are important shows you to be much more of a racist than I. That you think numbers need to perfectly match up into some perfect racial divide makes you a fool.
I don't think it's right because I don't think race is a valid concept. That other people separate by race and choose to identify by it is not my problem, it's their problem.
Oh, you meant actual race swaps and not the common use of race swap on this site to mean "non-white legacy character." In that case, no, I can't really think of any straight up raceswaps. But then, it's pretty rare for raceswaps to happen at all. Wally is pretty much the only example that I can think of from the past decade.
Because Legacies are a massive part of the DC Universe and have been since the 50s. Shit I feel like I already made this post. Maybe you should try reading it instead of going in circles with me because you're a fucking idiot?
>This would be true, but you've done absolutely nothing to support the argument that actual discrimination or racism is occurring.
Except I did, in that part of the post you chose to ignore and claim wasn't relevant, explaining why minorities don't tend to end up in the positions where they can create minority characters in the media, and how whites are considered the "default," and how implicit bias tests show that this society has a preferential bias towards whites, which would obviously affect their frequency of representation.
>And you do realize that even representation is not a good indication that racism is not occurring, right? That even distribution is not some cure for racism.
I never claimed it would cure all racism. It would address this one, particular consequence of racism. The fact that it wouldn't cure all racism everywhere forever isn't an argument against it.
>Again you need to explain: WHY does it matter that 97%(made up number, of course) of superheroes are white if race doesn't matter to you and you're simply concerned about racism?
This has been explained to death. If people receive differential outcomes based on a superficial trait, that is discrimination, even if it is not deliberate and due to structural issues.
>I should be saying this to you. You have an infantile understanding of race, racism, and discrimination.
My "infantile" understanding is based on social research. Yours reflects the way I thought when I was in seventh grade.
>You're overlooking that they don't like it because they're massive racists.
Well yeah that's what I was trying to allude to. It's already been said that these dudes don't actually read comics because if they did they'd know that Tanya's been around for months now and was introduced in Power Girl's own comic.
They were clearly to establish how discrimination need not be deliberate (establishing that their need not be a "conspiracy amongst racist comic creators" for non-representational outcomes to be injust), why minorities do not as often find themselves in roles where they can create minority representations (addressing your point that "it's okay for everyone in comics to be white because it's natural because all the creators are white duh"), and how racial biases that are borne of white domination make most people biased favorably towards whites and see them as the standard, whereas minorities are the "other," which explains why the default fictional character will be white.
And they dont think we need a normie/tumblr purge here
Too hard, and no one will care.
Better to make legacies out of characters that don't stand for anything in particular; it's harder to fuck that up, and if the new kid's sales drop, you can use them as cannon fodder in a fuckhuge event, and then have their predecessor step back into the role after a contrived revival. Plus, if everything actually works out, you can act like a smug fuck and pretend that everything went as planned.
>Blame white people for a lack of minority characters
>Refuse to do anything about it yourself
>Literally rely on white people to build you up and putting them into a role of superiority
It's weird because there are poor people everywhere and yet there still exist poor devoted artists who came from nothing and poor people who build entire corporate empires from nothing, and yet for some reason apparently black people can't draw. They're just too poor or something. Why are black people also expected to draw non-black characters? It's just amazing to me how blind you idiots are.
>It's weird because there are poor people everywhere and yet there still exist poor devoted artists who came from nothing and poor people who build entire corporate empires from nothing
lol bootstraps and the American Dream. I might as well be on fucking Free Republic right now.
>These boxes of skittles have equal numbers of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple skittles
>After pulling a large sample of random skittles from random boxes, they are all red
>What? You think something is going on here? That's illogical. It's perfectly fair for all these randomly-selected skittles to be red. You must be paranoid if you think otherwise.
remember when they tried giving PG a less revealing outfit, yeah neither do i. this character will be as forgotten as anything in modern Teen Titans
>new names are stronger than reusing them.
Yeah man for sure.
Everyone remembers Orpheus, Tattooed Man, and Bloodwynd.
But Aqualad, Mister Terrific, and John Stewart? Who the fuck are those clowns?
>new names are stronger than reusing them
Factually incorrect. If she wasn't called Power Girl, we wouldn't even be having these threads. Not because lolraceswapping (though that is certainly true), but because few would even know she exists barring the people that read Teen Titans and stuck with World's Finest and no one would care enough to talk about her.
Gotta love all those Equinnox threads.
That's quite elitist of you. As anon says, she's been in like 12 pages and not in anything big or noteworthy. It's not like she's established herself as awesome, or paid her dues as, falcon has.
>It's not real science because it doesn't confirm my opinions!
So, wait, if you're opinions on race aren't based on any social research, because all social research is junk... what are they based on?
>Turns out when DC makes a black legacy they don't expect it to be a controversy for anyone then unabashed racists.
how do you know, its proven to stir up controversy to get people caring, instead of you know. having an interesting story
lmao you mean the dude who's a Superman spin-off to the point that he wears his insignia.
I'm sorry did you have a point other than cherry picking the ONLY two examples that are relevant to your argument. I'm not even going to give you Vixen because no one fucking gives a shit about Vixen past thinking she was kind of hot in JLU.
>There are some examples of poor people becoming rich, so it must be easy to do and they're probably not just statistical outliers!
>If you don't like the lack of minorities at DC Comics, you're not allowed to point it out until you devote all your efforts toward becoming a comic-book creator who works at DC Comics and changing it, or starting your own comic book company that claims 36% of the market share and has a diverse lineup of titles!
Back in 1950 90% of Americans were white, it's hardly surprising most superheroes back then, many of which are still around today, where also white. Now that the US is about 70% white and so they're trying to have superheros catch up with the changing demographic... except they aren't, hispanics outnumber blacks in the US but all we're getting are new black superheroes. Because racism. With the hispanic population being the fastest growing, projected to maybe twice that of blacks by 2030, it's pretty stupid to not be making at least a few of these new superheroes be hispanic rather than black.
>Except I did, in that part of the post you chose to ignore
I read it. I didn't respond to it because it wasn't relevant. That blacks don't wind up as comic book artists is a completely separate issue. The point you made was that 97% of comic book heroes are white and thus racism is occurring, which is a false assertion and one you can't support. The only thing you can do is speculate about how institutionalized racism may contribute to blacks not becoming comic book artists. But that's extremely dodgy as well as none of it is possible to confirm.
What I do know is that most comic book artists are white and that none of them are committing racism by making white comic book heroes. Nor do they have any obligation to contribute to some perceived institutionalized racism by making characters with other skin colors. Expecting them to do so is racist.
>I never claimed it would cure all racism. It would address this one, particular consequence of racism.
It would not. It will accomplish nothing because it's just something in your head. Representation is not an issue unless you are a racist. Literally the only way it can matter to you is if you care about race.
>This has been explained to death. If people receive differential outcomes based on a superficial trait, that is discrimination, even if it is not deliberate and due to structural issues.
And I have explained to death that this explanation is invalid and is, itself, racist. As you are discriminating against the comic book characters based on their skin color. That they happen to be white SHOULD BE IRRELEVANT TO YOU if you are NOT racist. Not only that, but this does nothing to explain why it's racist. You just said that "If a lot of people happen to share a skin color, even if it isn't deliberate, it's racist", which is a patently stupid thing to state.
>My "infantile" understanding is based on social research.
>better an inspired character than a phony
Wally West is such a phony man. And Tim Drake? Get that fucking poser out of here. If there ain't Dick in the briefs than it ain't Robin. And Hal Jordan? Uh that fucking boy is fronting, he's not even weak to wood.
>but all we're getting are new black superheroes.
Stop with this shitty narrative.
New Ghost Rider is hispanic, as is the new Nova. Miles is half. This attempt at trying to pit the minority groups against one another is foolish.
Wow, how progressive! I will definitely buy the comic now!!!
Dude, other minorities are getting made, particularly Hispanics, as a few them have actually gotten their own ongoings.
This shifting of the goalposts doesn't even make sense. The only thing is there's more discussion when its a black person.
There is no such thing as a poor American. The poorest American is better off than 80% of the rest of the world with police, school, health care, nutritional assistance, democracy, gender equality, not having sharia law, hell even just having clean water. Americans can't use poverty as an excuse for anything because that is total bullshit.
>mexicans - instead of expecting whites to hand everything over to them they work so much ands even for cheap its a problem
>Asians are more often or not richer, smarter, and have a better work ethic than white people
>more black people are in prison than whites despite being the minority, more live in ghettos, more resort to violence, yet they are given more handouts than anyother race
>There are some examples of poor people becoming rich
There are plenty of examples of poor people becoming middle class and rich. I never claimed it was easy. But why should it be? What's your point? I'm saying that being poor doesn't stop anyone from being an artist, so "those poor black people!" doesn't work here. There are plenty of starving chinese artists that form animation studios. What's their excuse? Are blacks just too fucking dumb to do it? Is that what you think of them?
I said if minorities don't like the lack of minorities in comic books, they should make them themselves instead of whining to white guys to make other races. Let artists draw whatever they want.
>Also true. But doesn't change the winning condition. McDuffie did it.
lol if you think /pol/ wouldn't bitch about Milestone Media if they were around in the 90s. An entire line of comics devoted entirely to minorties? They'd flip their fucking shit, get out of here with this fucking garbage.
There's a disgusting trend on /co/ lately where McDuffie's name will be invoked any time some shithead racist wants to talk about how he'd be disgusted by minority legacies. Get the fuck out of here.
Wait so there's just this one Universe where Power Girl is black. Meanwhile there will still be comics of the regular Power Girl running around? What are you numbskulls arguing about, then?
Do you also get pissed off when you see more than one type of Coca-Cola on the shelf? Fucking Soda companies, Putting out cherry coke to pander to these non coke drinkers.
this isn't alt black power girl, its some nobody suddenly taking the mantel. she isn't the Kara of her universe, she didn't have a strong relationship with Peeg, Peeg isn't even dead or had some established legacy in her universe that needed to be passed down. she just stole the name
The less context around the news, the more likely it is that try-hards will jump into the thick of it without thinking first.
Three separate waves of reactions - each sparked by one-off news articles except for the most recent one, ranging from a mixed reception, to flowchart shitposting, to pants-on-head retarded, respectively. I can only imagine how many threads will crop on on /co/ when CBR cooks up one of their signature clickbait articles for Tanya's debut as PG (probably something like "DC Debuts Comic's First Genuine Black Teenage Superhero", you know how they do it).
If people could let go of the passive-aggressive bullshit that runs rampant in earlier clusterfuck threads (and there is plenty of passive-aggressive, pseudo-enlightened bullshit in these threads, there's no denying that), maybe they wouldn't be compelled to cram every little thing into their forced narratives.
Well, it's getting late so I have to go. It was fun discussing racism with you institutional racism guy, if you're still here. But you probably shouldn't claim to not be racist and then go around claiming that skin color and representation is really important, okay? Goodnight.
So when or if natives get fucked out of existence, my ancestors plight and the plight of folks on the rez will no longer matter? Jesus fucking Christ there's a reason there are so few natives.
>That blacks don't wind up as comic book artists is a completely separate issue.
Not if your justification for one race dominating media representations is that it's a natural consequence of their writers being from that demographic.
>The only thing you can do is speculate about how institutionalized racism may contribute to blacks not becoming comic book artists.
I can't point to any specific black person and go "she isn't a comic-book artist at a major publisher because of institutional racism." But there is a large body of research showing how institutional racism makes people of certain groups less likely to be present in certain sectors of society, and more likely in others.
>It would not. It will accomplish nothing because it's just something in your head. Representation is not an issue unless you are a racist. Literally the only way it can matter to you is if you care about race.
Thomas Theorem. If race has a significant impact on people's lives and people receive differential outcomes because of it (which is supported by evidence), then it is important enough to address it.
We live in a society where whites are more likely to achieve certain areas of visibility or status. Saying "pointing this out is racist because you said 'race'!" Doesn't make any sense.
>That they happen to be white SHOULD BE IRRELEVANT TO YOU if you are NOT racist.
Lol. That a statistically unrepresentative percentage of people in a group where race should, given fair trial, be representative, is not an issue, in a society where it is well-known that institutional racism often produces these results?
>"If a lot of people happen to share a skin color, even if it isn't deliberate, it's racist"
If a lot of people "happen" to share a skin color in a context where such an outcome isn't statistically likely if no discriminatory filters are occurring, yes.
That's why it's not racist for everyone who shows up to a Ukrainian family reunion to be white. That's expected.
>its not impossible for a homeless person to get back on their feet
No but the systems in place make it exceptionally difficult in stark comparison to other countries. But wait bootstraps, the American Dream, black people are just lazy, shit.
Honestly I don't even know why we have these arguments. You'll never be convinced that there is institutional racism, that the way our society is structured is brutally punishing to the less fortunate, so why do you care so much? Your like already own the country. Even the much touted liberal Obama, is a centrist conservative at his core and we're not likely to do much better any time soon.
True but one is much more likely to end up dead in a ditch this winter than they are to go to university and land their dream job. Acting like poverty is a non-factor just cause they're in America is fucking retarded.
Oh so they're just selling original coke, but with a green label instead of the red one.
Look real fucking close at this image. Because this is all you are arguing. You're arguing about a product that will sit on the shelf with the product that you still consume, unchanged. Is this really the hill you want to die on?
why don't more natives fuck more and have a lot of children like mormons. they don't have to pay taxes and get money from the government correct.
>Asians are more often or not richer, smarter, and have a better work ethic than white people
Lol. Asians are generally well-off in the U.S. because they are typically selected for education and work skills. But when you control for education and skills, whites still make more. The fact that the Asians in the U.S. were picked from people who have education just masks this.
Also, when you disentangle East Asians from South Asians, only the East Asians are economically well-off in America. The South Asians are comparable to other minorities.
>media throwing a shitfit about the ghost in the shell burgerland adaption being racist.
>Characters being turned black all the time here is met with applause because of how progressive it is.
Oh boy, deadshot gets to be played by a terrible washed up actor. Better start clapping about how tolerant will the scientologist smith is.
It's also not impossible for you to become an astronaut and go to the moon.
But lets stop talking about "possible"-- because in a boundless universe that expanded from a firey singularity, a lot of shit fits that criteria-- and lets talk about what's realistic, okay?
It's not very realistic for hobos to just be able to get jobs and then get homes and be well off when everything's stacked against them. Cool, you can find examples of people who've done that. I can find examples of being who were sentenced to hanging and lived through it.
220 million white folks(including Hispanic whites), 35 million black folks, 40 million other Hispanics. 3 million people of primary native heritage. Huge demographic disadvantage. Plus crushing poverty relative to the rest of America. Birth rate is higher than average but those thing may or may not last.
Not the same guy but this analogy is retarded. No one is invested in the storyline and character development of soft drinks.
well, I guess some people could be but the situation is not comparable.
why are you trying to call people's morality out on fucking 4chan of all places. where do you think you are
Irrelevant. The exact degree of unlikeliness isn't what the analogy hinges on. It's the fact that both aren't likely, but are possible, but the fact that they are possible doesn't mean much in light of the fact that they are unlikely.
It's still possible for you to become an astronaut. You just have to try and also a lot of other things I don't know about have to happen but I'm just gonna focus on the "you trying" part,
I am not calling out anyone's morality, I know exactly where I am and I don't pretend to be any better considering I post here as well.
For my own curiosity, I just want to know how he feels.
>so you admit this race swapping
Creating a new character isn't race swapping
>shit is just to stir up controversy.
Sure, they created Tanya months ago and then waited until now to make it a controversy by putting a simple house ad to get people interested in Teen Titans. GENIUS!
>instead of them naturally having a character who can fit into the story
That is exactly what they have been doing. All they did was give her a publicity push to get people to read the book she will be appearing in.
Not that guy but what the fuck are you doing. You're, what, trying to skewer him with your wit? To prove some idiotic point? He posted that specifically to get some dumb fuck to reply to him. Congratulations, that dumb fuck is you. You're achieving nothing by arguing with him because he doesn't give a shit. And even if he is racist, what the fuck do you care. You're not going to convince him of anything on 4chan and it's inconsequential to you anyway. Seriously what the fuck are you doing?
I think this thread is proof that the reason 4Chan's favorite site is Tumblr is because it's full of stupid uninformed liberals that are easy to knock down and declare a victory over. And as soon as they're debating with smarter leftists, they're brains shut down and they start wishing to be up against Tumblr again.
It's okay, we can have another Tumblr raid to restore our confidence.
>Not that guy but what the fuck are you doing. You're, what, trying to skewer him with your wit? To prove some idiotic point? He posted that specifically to get some dumb fuck to reply to him. Congratulations, that dumb fuck is you. You're achieving nothing by arguing with him because he doesn't give a shit. And even if he is gay, what the fuck do you care. You're not going to convince him of anything on 4chan and it's inconsequential to you anyway. Seriously what the fuck are you doing?
>is it just appeasing a certain group of notorious complainers?
By keeping them white, they would doing the same thing
There's no difference
Well, when people come into the conversation assuming that it'll all be garbage anyway, and that at least some token diversity will make it less garbage, that's to be expected. No one gives a flying fuck about execution anymore, whether they're for diversity, against it, or apathetic towards it (which is apparently just as bad as fighting it, since that means our moral overlords can't count on your unconditional support anyway).
No such thing as tokenism, hackneyed writing or arrogant presumption when it comes to racial issues in comics - just brilliant depictions of the wide spectrum of life, heroes who are willing to say "racists r bad", and the monsters who hold society back by criticizing anything, ever.
>You're not going to convince him of anything on 4chan and it's inconsequential to you anyway.
I fail to see how it's any different than what every other person in this 400+ thread is doing.
I'm passing no judgment. I won't even reply to him if he decides to answer. I simply want to know. I crave the insight.
>Hey guys, lets stop racism by saying it's okay that institutional racism has led to an unfair distribution of social roles and material rewards because race isn't a real thing, and hopefully people who were assigned as minority races won't realize that they usually get the short stick!
Haven't laughed this hard all week
No this is right. Because sometimes you cape readers need to get pulled the fuck back to reality and look at what you're complaining about. A thing. an Item. Pencil and paper and computer colors and staples. Created via an assembly line, printed out in a factory, trucked around North America, ready to be purchased on the shelf. It's Coca-Cola.
Uh, what exactly are you trying to say here. Honestly puzzled what your point is with this one.
Once again, no one is being turned black. Except Wally. That nigga totally got turned black and you can feel free to get angry at that since it' 100% bullshit no matter how you look at it.
is your goal to end racism and have people reject the very concept as invalid? or to attempt to ensure even redistribution of wealth and opportunity based on the concept of race and promote racial discrimination?
Making a legacy character a different race than their successor is an easy way to make them visually distinct, as well as a quick shorthand for distinguishing them until they've been around long enough for people to remember their names. "Power Girl" and "the black Power Girl"
Well I, for one, am captivated by the adventures of the Fantanas. Fingers crossed that Ginger Ale becomes the 5th ranger of the group (even if Fanta's ale is too sweet for my tastes).
Those days are dead and gone. This is a proxy thread anyways - using news about a character that hasn't even hit the ground running yet to bitch about similar things.
>shorthand for distinguishing them until they've been around long enough for people to remember their names. "Power Girl" and "the black Power Girl"
what an awful way to remember a character. a character, even a legacy one, should be remembered off their feats, not something of appearance. no one remembers Kyle as the half mexican GL, they remember him as the creative one. most don't just remember Wally as the sidekick to hero Flash, they remember him as THE BEST Flash
>whites are normal, not a special interest, so it's not pandering to make white characters
>i don't understand the definition of normal
in America being white is normal since they make most of the population. it isn't the normal the way you think it is like everyone should be normal. its normal as in its more common
Uh, to have people realize that race is not a valid concept, but people receive differential treatment and outcomes because of it, and that must be addressed to end racism.
So, adding more black characters is discrimination?
We live in a society where the "default" human is white. Whiteness is seen as normal and is invisible, and race is only a significant descriptor of one's identity when they're non-white. No comic creator is going to go "hey look I accidentally created this Asian character I didn't even do that on purpose, cool!" No, they are going to say "I'm going to make this character Asian," because being Asian isn't as invisible and taken for-granted as being White is.
I'm gonna test a theory real quick,
>a character, even a legacy one, should be remembered off their feats
How are you supposed to do that when they're a brand new character and haven't had a chance to have any feats. Do you just frontload a ton of omg so awesome shit into their first issue? Then you've got Silk levels of mary sue-ism.
Exactly. In countries full of minorities like Africa, people will probably won't know that whites are normal and will think they are the "special interests" because they grew up in a country where the normal people are less and the minorities outnumber.
>The United States is the only country that reads comics
God forbid people who were enslaved, and then thrown into prison in huge numbers after slavery ended to prop up the prison industry, and then barred from voting in roundabout ways, and then redlined, and who are still poor today because of inter-generational wealth and continuing employment discrimination (which has been found through experimental research) think that anyone has wronged them as a group.
Why can't they be like people who don't realize that they've been shit on, which I'm going to assume South Asians are for reasons?