I've been getting into comics a lot lately, but one thing I still can't figure out is this: is there a supreme cosmic being in either of the big universes?
I ask because I remember one Fantastic Four issue where Ben Grimm dies, and the remaining Fantastic Three "rescue" him from Heaven. And at one point Dr. Doom goes to Hell. But then there's also Death, Galactus, ,Living Tribunal, multiple universe stuff, the Infinity Gauntlet, and the thousand other gods like Thor that kind of contradict the "big God" part.
Also DCU had some kind of god stuff at some point, but I don't really remember where and when.
>is there a supreme cosmic being in either of the big universes
Yes. In DC it's taken the form of an Englishman, a great light behind the source wall, some bearded guy, etc. In modern DC his current form is a scottie dog.
There is a hierarchy of supreme beings and The One Above All is the more powerful than the rest combined. The Second most powerful is Tribunal who is the chore boy of the one above all.
in DC judeo-christian god is real, all the pagan gods are real, there are roman and greek pantheons, god likes to be a dog, santa is real, etc.
I mean the Spectre WORKS for god and he's a JSA member
They both have co-existing pantheons and high cosmic abstracts, but they also each have a single supreme being who presides over the entire multiverse, whereas even higher-ups like Galactus or the Spectre are different characters in different universes.
They rarely appear, but it does happen. In an old FF, the One Above All was Jack Kirby working in his studio. There are also characters who answer to them directly, like the Living Tribunal and the Spectre.
YHWH is implied to be of lesser authority than the Overvoid.
How can the Overvoid have "authority"? The Overvoid is the page. It's the Brahman to YHVH's, uh, Yahweh. Overvoid is a reactive, generative totalizing force while Yahweh is a character within all of that.
It would be more correct to say that the Overvoid has more significance than Yahweh, it being the bed from which all stories come, if I understand Morrison correctly.
The One Above All is not just his name.
It's a descriptor.
He is literally above all of them.
If Thanos with the Cosmic Cube, Infinity Gauntlet, the gem of Cytorrak, with Thor's Hammer and the Eye of Agamatto all whilst the most pissed off Hulk that has ever been throws him at The One Above All, OAA would win.
The One Above All are the writers of Marvel, as they are the creators of the universe and oversee what happens within the universe, eliminating threats and balancing everything
The Presence in DC is the same, as many characters witnessed a hand coming through the void at the beginning of time
Still stupid that New Genesis and fucking Apokalypse exist in all universe as a single place.
Probably get fixed soon when they realized that 5 supermans would just kick Darkseids pathetic ass at that point.
>Probably get fixed soon when they realized that 5 supermans would just kick Darkseids pathetic ass at that point
Yes, they would.
He's got it covered.
Yes, if the supermen team up they can defeat Darkseid.
But it's hard to get different earths to coordinate like that.
So Darkseid can rampage through the universes and build his frankenstein superman.
Bentley-23, I believe. Clone of the Wizard.
It's been that way since fucking forever. COIE at the very least.
And of course the Legion of Supermen would kick his ass, in Final Crisis it's explicitly stated that it can only be convened once, against the ultimate danger Mandrakk.
>Yes, if the supermen team up they can defeat Darkseid
It's too bad Nix Uotan blew his trump card against Mandrakk. An army of Supermen would be great, but it can never happen again.
No he isn't, Darkseid has the power of branding, and is an evil that will return again and again as long as it is profitable. Whereas Mandrakk was a one-shot whose branding couldn't survive even a single reboot.
Darkseid's financial weight is among the strongest of DC's villains.
>the gem of Cytorrak
That actually brings people down a notch.
You get the power, sure, but you're officially Cyttorak's bitch even if you have stat multipliers from another class like Phoenix.
The distinction is immaterial.
In the Big Two, "god" is just a label. It might come with a portfolio and some neat powers, but it says nothing about whether or not you can withstand someone karate chopping you hard enough or pulling you in half like a wishbone.
Are Sentry and Omega Superman
Bizarrogods just because they can murder gods?
At least in recent Marvel, and sometimes in DC, Gods are materially different from other things in their universes, being made out of stories.
I think DC has flip flopped on this a lot because of the new gods, but it is definitely true in current Marvel.
They are the same thing except when they're not. For example, sometimes the Source is literally the source, sometimes it's the font of all life and knowledge and stories, and sometimes it's a big naked guy.
But we don't talk about Death of the New Gods.
The Source has been many things over the years, but the common thread and current explanation is that it's the imagination of all the readers and writers of the DCU.
The Presence is just a facet of the DCU YHWH, which is above everything and everyone but the Overvoid in power, if it can be said to have power.
Overvoid>YHWH>Lucifer=Michael>Endless>Fourth World>other Pantheons=angels of Heaven
Also I think my favourite part of this entire cosmic battle is that instead of "throwing planets at the bad guy" like Starlin did with Thanos, he went full cosmic abstract, splashed a bunch of crazy textures around, and drew in a tentacle monster for good measure.
Okay so basically, OP, Marvel has a creator called The One Above All, who is not the Judeo-Christian God, he's Jack Kirby. He doesn't really manage the afterlife - people tend to go to the afterlife belonging to whatever 'small god' they worship. Asgard is full of Norse dead, etc. In Marvel the Judeo-Christian pantheon is just like any other, though they don't show up often so as to not offend people.
In DC, the Judeo-Christian god created reality, and was eventually replaced by pic related.
>being this stupid
Berger wasn't literally saying that and Gaiman didn't take it literally. He just cracked a joke about it later, saying that if that was the literal truth, it'd explain why everyone's constantly punching one another.
It has some really great stories.
Though they're more 'mythic' than cosmic. Sandman, Books of Magic, and Lucifer (where the character in that picture appears) are some of the best comics around.
Marvel does wacky space stuff better.
>Mandrakk was the absolut evil
If he's so great, why isn't he around anymore?
Silly fanboy, Mandrakk is just Morrison's rant against editors. He's nothing to Darkseid, who will come back again and again from death or the source wall or the omega force.
Mandrakk's brand is nonexistent. When you say his name people think of that dork from Dexter's Lab, not an OC multiverse vampire.
Mandrakk a shit.
The only trace of Mandrakk's brand left is that Nix Uotan is still around. In a tie-in comic for a video game.
Poor Mandrakk, doomed to vanish into obscurity like Lord Vyndktvx or Xorn.
>If he's so great, why isn't he around anymore?
Dead by Supermen army using a huge amount of solar energy, Nix Uotan and shitload of Green Lantern... After the Though Robot beat him up and send him to the nowhere outside of the Multiverse.
Come on, anon. Read the source you are critizicing.
Like he did in his invasion of the 52? Pfff, that is not a powerfull enemy, that's what the Team Rocket does. Show up every once in a while and get their asses kicked, THAT is Darkseid.
So was Darkseid.
Guess who's still around, while Mandrakk isn't.
Seriously, for a Grant Morrison fanboy you're pretty bad at meta. You took the literal story element of Mandrakk dying in Beyond and FC as an actual thing, while ignoring the fact that Mandrakk's brand is like dust in the wind.
Darkseid's vastly superior brand makes him by definition a far greater villain than Mandrakk is.
It's like comparing Imperiex to Lex Luthor. Imperiex is a big Galactus ripoff who could blow up the world. Oh no!
But he's dead and has never shown up again while Lex Luthor stays strong in the consciousness of the readers and in the universe of DC.
Until you understand this point, you will never be much of a reader. You're impressed by simple the fact that Mandrakk was Big and Shot Lasers and slobbered a lot.
Grant Morrison would be disappointed in you.
Ok. Superman and Batman like to have beers on the porch of the Wayne Manor.
Loki doesn't like new food, because he remembers that time he ate a roasted human heart and ended pregnant with the first troll. He is afraid that might happen to him again.
>But he's dead and has never shown up again while Lex Luthor stays strong in the consciousness of the readers and in the universe of DC.
>Until you understand this point, you will never be much of a reader. You're impressed by simple the fact that Mandrakk was Big and Shot Lasers and slobbered a lot.
Nope, i'm impresed because his right testicle was big enough to destroy all existance.
Darkseid a shit.
>It's like all those Abraxasfags
>mfw there are Abraxasfags
But anon, he came in at the end! That means he's the biggest bad guy ever!
but Reed himself told his children that God does not exist, nor heaven or hell, just this life, in the Marvel Universe practically everything is science, so that God is nothing more than a product of ignorant minds
Yeah. You know how you lie a little to your kids because they're not ready for the truth? That's exactly what Hickman was doing in FF. He had Reed lying to Val and Franklin because the idea of a universe in which they were alone and could self-determine was far more comforting than the idea that they were subject to the overpowering will of Kirby.
I think the problem here is that people are having trouble distinguishing between God[object of worship] and God[creature].
Because shit some people have a god that is literally a rock and that's still a god[object of worship], but it's a rock[creature].
>Batman: I... I tell you man... my mom used to tell me bed time stories every night before sleeping. I know... I KNOW... it sounds dumb, but that is one of the few things i miss the most of them
>Superman: H-Hey man, no need to say that's dumb. Y-You are still a man deep down... a man that dress like a batz... but a man in the end
>ORRERY OF WORLDS:
>52 'brane universes vibrating in the same space, all at different frequencies, within the all-enclosing Bulk, otherwise known as Bleed-space. Four Bleed Siphons have been drilled in from Monitor Sphere to the Orrery, to permit the harvest of the miracle Ultramenstruum fluid.
Here's where I'm getting it from, fyi:
>Known to some as Sheol, or Jigoku, the burning iron Place of Torment is home to Neron, Belial, Trigon, Azazel, Abnegazar, Rath, Ghast and the Demon Etrigan - high on a list of a legion of fiends. Here are the Djinns and the Fallen Angels, and the Haters of Humanity, waiting...
The text colors should look better when printed, i think.
I could use some clarification on the way Hell works in the DC Universe. I'm going to assume with the description for Hell >>64535962 there are many, many levels to it or there are at least many hells if not at least on the same plane. Thing is, who rules it? Or are separate parts ruled by different people? I know there's Trigon, Lucifer, the First of the Fallen, and I imagine there's a Satan, but what exactly is the hierarchy and how does it all work? Are there jurisdictions? Do different people get sent to different parts or different Hells?
Well, thanks to president Luthor and the Human Defence Corp, the United States government actually seized and occupied a portion of Hell through military force.
Presumably they still administrate it.
>Okay so basically, OP, Marvel has a creator called The One Above All, who is not the Judeo-Christian God, he's Jack Kirby. He doesn't really manage the afterlife - people tend to go to the afterlife belonging to whatever 'small god' they worship. Asgard is full of Norse dead, etc. In Marvel the Judeo-Christian pantheon is just like any other, though they don't show up often so as to not offend people.
Yeah, that all sounds about right. Also, you've got the Hell-lords and the hell-dimensions which siphon off the souls of anyone they can. They're just malicious extra-dimensionals in pocket planes.
Well that kind of settles that then.
I've been meaning to, but I haven't bothered to make the time for them. Does it cohesively display the machinations of Hell? Because I'm just trying to work off of what I've read in Demon Knights, Hellblazer, and what I'm now reading in the Spectre. The whole who's who thing confuses me, but I'm willing to try and get it all down.
>Marvel does wacky space stuff better.
It also often does mythic more poorly. Marvel magic is very tied in with cosmic/extra-dimensional shit and at times just seems like another cosmic force, no different from gravity or the power cosmic. It's got a great, unique tone of its own, but that tone is still very different from DC's magic, which lends itself to a more mythic, folklore feel.
Sandman is basically required reading for shit like gods in comics. It's basically required reading for all comics as well. But yeah, there is a whole arc on how hell works.
Sandman is fucking great. Lucifer's pretty damn good too.