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Death in the DC Universe
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I've always sort of wondered how the concept of "death" is organized in the DC Universe, as there seem to be a multitude of entities that deal with it. I mean, we have Gaiman's Death of the Endless from The Sandman, who seems to be the "big-D" death. But matters are complicated by Nekron, the Black Flash (no, not DCnU Wally), and a number of death-avatars from all of the pantheons that are considered "real" in the DCU.

I'm not terribly sure how it works, but this is my version of it:

>Death (The Endless)
The embodiment of death. Death itself.

>Nekron
This is where I make shit up to force things to fit. Nekron is an entity created by Death, much like Morpheus created The Corinthian and Brute & Glob. He has some of Death's power, but went rogue after he started to believe that life is an abomination and that the universe's natural state is death. Cast out of Death's abode, he now rules the Dead Zone, which we've seen in various Green Lantern comics.

>Hades
Is not death, simply a ruler of an underworld. Perhaps every underworld and afterlife is connected to Death's larger underworld, with some gods simply having domain over some sections of it, perhaps even unaware of this fact.

>Thanatos
In Greek myth, Hades was the ruler of the dead realm, but Thanatos was the personification of death. All personifications of Death are simply manifestations of Death of the Endless based on different perceptions of her, so Thanatos is Death, as well as Yama, the Grim Reaper, whoever is "death" itself.

>The Black Flash
Either Death's form when she comes after those connected to the Speed Force, or, like Nekron, a minor Death minion with autonomy.

>The Black Racer
A human given the power and responsibility to access Hadis, the element Death's world that deals with New Gods, and bring New Gods to it when their time has come.

Maybe Morrison's Multiversity Map will clear this up, I dunno.
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>>64221448
Oh yeah, H'ronmeer would be another personification of Death, the one familiar to Martians.
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>>64221448
Hmm.. I've not read many volumes of the Sandman, or any of the Death spin-off minis, but...

Perhaps Death doesn't have anything to do with the afterlife at all, and only has anything to do with the moment and process of death itself? After that, her job is done, and these souls could end up in a variety of places, such as Hell, Silver City, Hades, the Dead Zone, Elysium, Nirvana, staying on Earth as ghosts, etc etc, but Death herself has nothing to do with those things at that point?
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She's kinda hot.
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>>64221448
She's cool with it
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>>64223034
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>>64223063
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>>64223083
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>>64223100
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>>64223133
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>>64223160
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>>64223178
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>>64223231
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>>64223249
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>>64223272
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Wasn't there an issue of Captain Atom that dealt with this in a way that pissed off Neil Gaiman?
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>>64223034
Fucking really? Gaiman must have been pissed as shit about that. Vertigo shouldn't get infected by capeshit outside of small nods.
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>>64223328
Nope, Cornell got Gaiman's permission to use her iirc

>>64223325
Yeah I remember hearing that he was pissed as Weisman about it
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>>64223325
>>64223328
It was sort of like.... Death of the endless was a certain kind of Death... Like peaceful death. But Gae-man didn't like that
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*pleb mode on* Why even bother with a "Death" character in DC comics since people just come back all the time. Death doesn't matter in comics.
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>>64223294
> I never said you were dead

She still got it
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>>64223425
Well somebody has to stamp people on their way into comic limbo and out.
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>>64223425
What do you think they do between dying and returning? They gotta go somewhere anon

There's various afterlifes/pantheons/etc. why wouldn't there be represenations of death
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>>64223083
Oh yeah, that was a great Action Comics run.
The fact that Death says she "noticed" Blackest Night, but doesn't seem too concerned about it, supports my theory that she and Nekron are not the same entity (along with the fact that Nekron is malevolent and Death is neutral).

But, yeah, you think she'd be more upset about some being corrupting the very process of death and throwing shit out of balance. But it's probably cuz she sees the bigger picture and realizes it's no big deal.

>>64223405
Yeah, I guess the thing is that Death is supposed to be all of Death, not just some aspect of it. She's not "peaceful death only," she's all Death.

Maybe Weisman would had done better to either say the Black Racer is a form Death takes, or an entirely different entity who isn't death; but not some aspect of death that Death herself doesn't encapsulate.
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>>64223405
Gaiman wants her to be the fundamental concept of Death (and because she defines her opposite, Life), all other death gods within the DC Universe are beneath her. DC doesn't really benefit from pissing Gaiman off so he generally gets a say in how his characters get used.

Interestedly enough, Death is arguably the most powerful character in DC considering the Nu52 didn't carry over stuff from Lucifer.
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>>64223485
She must be a pretty lousy death then, since people just keep returning to life. Have they ever made a gag about it? "Hey Superman, this must be the 100th time I take you to the afterlife"
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>>64223616
see >>64223083

she knows, but one guy coming back to life every couple years isn't a big deal
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>>64223616
She's pretty cool with people finding ways to come back to life or become immortal. She knows she'll have to take everyone in the end so she isn't in a rush.
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>>64221448
The Endless don't even exist in the New 52 the Black Racer and Nekron still do tho so I would say that they rank a bit higher in importance and power.
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>>64223812
>The Endless don't even exist in the New 52
sure they do
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>>64223616
Why would Death give a fuck about a hundred guys, or a thousand, or even a million, coming back to life periodically in a universe that contains a near-infinite amount of beings and which will one day end, killing even the immortals?
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>>64223820
But doesn't that destroy the purpose of death if people just come back all them time, because that's not really death then is it?
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>>64223912
a handful of people coming back every so often doesn't really balance out the fact that billions will all die eventually
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>>64223328
You know the 4th Dr. Fate was Hector Hall, right? Who is also the son of Hawkman.

And Doctor Destiney is a JLA villain.
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>>64223818
Wait is is Sandman Overture in the New 52? I thought it was a Pre-Flashpoint story.
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>>64223083
Why does Death in DC comics look like a sexy goth teen? please explain.
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>>64224010
Because based Gaimen
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>>64223178
>If he turns out to be a little man in a bowler hat or something

heh
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What was the point of Lex meeting Death? After than everyone wanted for Harley to meet Delirium but what was the point? That Lex brings death?

>>64221448
Also, at times this is the problem of shared continuity.
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>>64223328
nope, gaiman gave his blessing at the time, cornell mentioned it in the letters column. additionally, the martian manhunter appears in the first arc or two of sandman, so don't deny where vertigo got its roots...
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Saved this from a somewhat recent Death/Endless discussion, written by some Anon: http://pastebin.com/XbepExFR

Enjoy.
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>>64223912
Sure it is. It's only your own perception of Death that says it has to be finite. Not everyone says that. Death is what it is, and in comics that includes a few people temporarily breaking free from the afterlife they've been alloted, or avoiding death to begin with, for a short while on the cosmic scale before either going back to the afterlife or finally succumbing. So comic-death would be fine with that, because that's what she is.

And what does it matter to a being like Death if someone comes back from the dead to spend some time with the living for twenty or even a thousand? She's been there since the first thing started living in the universe, and will be there until the last thing in the universe dies. It'll all work out in the end.
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>>64223616
Superman has never actually died
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>>64224087
>What was the point of Lex meeting Death?
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>>64224186
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Gaiman is in on the Hypercrisis.
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>>64224204
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>>64224261
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Death looks hot.
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>>64224277
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>>64224294
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>>64224329
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>>64224347
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>>64224372

dat lex face
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>>64223995
Not him, and I haven't read Overture (yet), but in the map of the New 52 Universe figures the Dreaming and Destiny is there hanging around.
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>>64223328
Sandman is acknowledged as capeshit by everyone who doesn't have their head up their ass.
>started as DC with JLI, Doctor Destiny, etc. as characters
>is about preternaturally powerful man with an iconic look attempting to overcome obstacles
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>>64221448
Death is a psychopomp. She doesn't do shit about the afterlife besides delivering you there.
Nekron is a personification of the nothing which existed before existence, and beyond being able to revive dudes doesn't really have anything to do with death.
Hades is the ruler of the underworld.
In the Orpheus special, Death is called Thanatos iirc.
The Black Flash is the Fifth World preincarnation of the Black Racer.
The Black Racer has a different range of responsibilities than Death.
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>>64225051
She's called Teleute
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>>64224186 to >>64224372

Damn, seems to be something out of Evangelion. God damn it.
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>>64223557
>>64223325
That issue had Captain Atom giving that narration as his own interpretation of Death.
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>>64225100
Thanatos is the Golden Age Greek word for death and Teleute is the Koine Greek. She's called Death either way, but I have to question Gaiman's use of a period-specific term which doesn't come about for another five hundred years or so.
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>>64225051
so Nekron is closer to what Oblivion in the Marvel universe represents?
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Bumping in hopes that this will still be here when I get home.
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>>64225391
Yeah, except DC doesn't do all the universal constant stuff. You get your Endless, your Monitors, and that's about it.
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>>64225367
The endless went by many names. I blame morpheus for always making weird families.
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>>64225414
So you can, for example, kill Nekron, and it won't turn everything into cancerverse or cause Life to lose meaning or something.
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>>64221448
Of the Sandman mythos is to be followed, all mythological entities (Greek, Norse, Egyptian or otherwise) are creations of people that were birthed in the dreaming. By that logic, none of them are really the final incarnation of death and when anything dies, even them, Death of the endless is who meets them. I don't know how black flash or any of those characters fit in to it however but I'd have to guess they aren't as relevant to dying as Death of the endless is.
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Post more qt3.14 death
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>>64226225
Is there a rule 63 of her?
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>>64226272
Sure.
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>>64226585
So no qt male death? Well I'd probably bone that anyway.
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Does anyone else find her impossible to fap to? She's very attractive physically, but I'm much more attracted to her emotionally. So with a pic like this, I'll agree that she's beautiful, but her beauty is not the sole reason I love her.
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>>64226585

Pratchett Death > All other deaths.
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>>64226714
I imagine her to be like that Babysitter who you'd crush on as a kid, who'd play games with you and you two would have great fun.

And when it was time to go to bed, she'd tuck you in, read you a story, give you a kiss goodnight and shut off the lights.
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>>64226714
I guess it's kind of like fapping to your mother or something. Since she's there when you're born and MUCH older.
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>>64226771
Damn, that description hits me in a way I can't really describe. Just...damn.
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>>64224138
Still waiting on that sequel.
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>>64226853
Keep waiting. I'm a lazy piece of shit sorry.
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The cosmic stuff is the only thing I still feel like I enjoy from DC over Marvel.

Marvel Cosmic beings are complete assholes and very bland and BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION.

Where as DC cosmic beings are... much more.
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>>64226714
I know that how you feel, anon.
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>>64226927
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>>64226585
>>64226743
Death of The Endless is more like a rule 63 Discworld Death to me. I honestly dont know which one i'd prefer to meet when i die.

>>64226714
I feel like this too. Its appropriate though and feels completely intended. The idea seems to be a pleasant death, including pleasant looking but not sexy.

I also feel like a cosmic entity isnt something you should wanna fap at.
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>>64226714
>>64226771
>>64226812
>>64227259
The better question is how would she react knowing you fapped to her?
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>>64227301
Laughter. Lots of laughter. The happy kind, not the mocking kind. Desire would mock you, Death would just double up gasping for air and clap you on the back.

Now, how would Discworld Death react knowing you fapped to him, THAT'S what I want to know.
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Here's what I know

Death, as an Endless takes precedence over all. She's literally the concept of death.

Nekron is just a being that wields death while also being created by death. Like how Parallax isn't actually the force of fear, he just controls and feeds off fear that's nearby.

Now here's where it gets unclear, with Hades and Hell. It could just be you end up going where you believe you would go. So someone who believes in Heaven and Hell would go to Hell and someone who believes in the Greek gods would go to Hades, and someone who believed in reincarnation would be reincarnated. But it only works for things that enough people believe in.

The Black Racer was explained as just being how death manifests in the Speed Force and only goes for speedsters.
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>>64227384
Can we get a drawfriend on this? DC Death, not Discworld. Maybe both, but I know nothing about Discworld.
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>>64227301
She'd be amused, not be angry or embarrassed, or embarress you for what you did, but let you down easy, like if you fapped to your best friend and she just wanted to be friends. And in time, you just end up being really close friends.

Somehting like that. I don't know.
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>>64226714
You now know the true meaning of "waifu."

>>64225051
>Nekron is a personification of the nothing which existed before existence, and beyond being able to revive dudes doesn't really have anything to do with death.

Seems funny that Blackest Night would align him with "death" rather than "lack of life."

I mean, the thing where he says that "death was here before life and life invaded death's universe" never made a lick of sense to me. Death can't precede life. Death is the cessation of life. Yes, before life, everything was lifeless, but nothing was dead.

It seems that Johns forgets that and kind of muddies his concept of the Black energy.
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>>64227507
>You now know the true meaning of "waifu."

All these years seaching... and I've found the truth...

It's beautiful...
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>>64224659
I stand corrected that looks awesome.
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>>64227301
If you aren't combining it with a NDE like autoerotic asphyxiation, then you're quite simply doing it wrong. But I hear she is quite a generous host to those "just visiting".

So which character would near kill themselves over and over just to bang death?
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>>64227491
>She'd be amused... like if you fapped to your best friend and she just wanted to be friends.

I'm not sure that this is how most friends would react if they found out their best friend was fapping to them.

>Now here's where it gets unclear, with Hades and Hell. It could just be you end up going where you believe you would go. So someone who believes in Heaven and Hell would go to Hell and someone who believes in the Greek gods would go to Hades, and someone who believed in reincarnation would be reincarnated. But it only works for things that enough people believe in.

Hmm. Maybe all of the afterlife is the same place, but the observer sees it differently based on his or her perceptions? Like, you could be sitting beside this other guy, and he's seeing everyone as those faceless ghosts that don't remember who they are and are only pale shadows of themselves that are said to be in Hades, while you're seeing fire and brimstone and people with pointy goatees in red pajamas bailing fire (is that what the pitchforks are for?)
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>>64227417
Discworld Death is a seven foot walking skeleton with a robe and a scythe and a FULL CAPS VOICE AT ALL TIMES. He doesn't shout, it just sounds like that in your head becuase he doesn't have vocal chords.

He considers himself a craftsman. He gets offended at the notion that he kills people; people die, and he does the collecting. He appears to everyone in some shape or aspect, like Gaiman's death, but he's not beyond divine retribution or a dark joke. Struggles with human concepts like humor or irony, or emotions (which he is quite insistent he does not have). Fond of cats. Sounds like Christopher Lee. Is inordinantly fond of humanity, to the point where he has interfered several times to prevent natural unnatural forces from causing their extinction.

Has a non-biological human grand-daughter who's a 10/10 total semen demon, the world's greatest wizard as his manservant (he makes fried porridge), and a six inch skeletal rat pet who is the incarnation of Death for Rodents. It's actually a part of him given sentience and free will, usually runs around being a little shit.
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>>64227301
I like to think she'd find it funny or cute. It couldnt possibly phase her since you could hardly be the first person to sexualize death. Wasnt there a girl who had the hots for her in one story? I think Death just thought it was sweet in a detached kindoff way.

>>64227384
I think Discworld Death would be indifferent. At best you'dd get a pun out of it.

>>64227507
>>64227542
I totally fap to my waifu(s) though.
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>>64227642
Uhhh yeah thinking about how I phrased that was... not how I wanted it to sound.

Imagine you had a crush on your best friend and you told her your feelings. But she only wanted to be friends and stay as close as you were now.
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>>64227259
>I also feel like a cosmic entity isnt something you should wanna fap at.

somehow I can imagine Thanos disagreeing, but that is a different Death anyway
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>>64227679
>I totally fap to my waifu(s) though.

Ah, but true waifu love is 2pure2fap2.
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>>64227768
> Waifu love is sexless
That's just like real marriage, then.
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So does death-tan have a mortal boyfriend? How do they hang out? How would she describe their relationship? It's uh, complicated.]/spoiler]
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>>64227768
Dont you tell me how to love my waifu! My emotional attraction to them only serves to make my dick harder!
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>>64227892
Death isn't allowed to be with mortals according to some set of rules.
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>>64227892
>Does Death have a Boyfriend
No

>How do they hang out
Probably exploring, adventuring the comos and universe getting into all sorts of insanity filled incomprehensable trouble

>How would she describe her relationship
A close one, and she'll be with them until the end. She'll never leave their side until it's time to turn out the lights.

But yeah, it'd be more complicated then likely possible.
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>>64228022
Oh shit that's right.

If she gets involved with a mortal she loses her cosmic abilities.
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>>64227892
She's too busy to date anyone. She politely declines anyone who asks, partly because she's far older than 99% of the multiverse and would view it as a little kid who has a crush on hir babysitter.
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>>64228086
I thought that was just Destruction or am I misremembering?
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>>64228158
It may have been. I forget as well.

Didn't it happen to a few of the cosmic entities in the series?
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>>64227892
>>64228022
>>64228045
>>64228086
>>64228126
>>64228158
>>64228244
Rules or no, i doubt she would ever be very tempted. You'dd have to find a way to become a being on the level of The Endless in order to even be a contender.
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>>64228380
You mean like Desire?
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>>64228413
I havnt read all of Sandman yet but yeah, I guess. Do you automatically become part of the family when you become one of them?
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>>64228413
>>64228380
>>64228454
You don't become a new Endless. The best you can do is replace an old one, and even then romantic inclinations are low on their priority list (except Dream who's a complete slut, and Deisre, who'll fuck anything that moves).

They're a family, a little weird and possesing god like powers perhaps, but still a family. Being her brother won't make her want to fuck you any more than she does now. They're sibilings, they don't want to fuck each other (except for Desire of course, who wants to by design).
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>>64228634
If you created a new concept, wouldn't you be able to create a new psychopomp?
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>>64228760
Here's a new and completely unexplored aspect:
Girls who will ever like you.

Bam. New psychopomp.
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>>64228791
Isn't that desire?
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>>64224066
I remember that from Lucifer. Was he shown elsewhere?
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>>64228825
Is it not a Mr. Mxyzptlk reference?
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>>64228817
No.
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>>64226714
I just can't fap to her because she is "death". It's like when I think of the concept my libido stops existing.
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>>64227660
They really like the idea of a Death that's everywhere at once. It was the same in Good Omens.
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>>64226714
Go to bed, Thanos.
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>>64229165
That is the opposite of Thanos. He doesn't want to admire his waifu from afar, he is hanging around her house 24/7 pledging to murder millions in her honor and begging her to fuck him.
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>>64221448
But who is Death's death? Strange aeons, even death may die.
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>>64229316
She just sees herself out.
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>>64229316
She is. We've seen the exact scenario, she shows up for herself.
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>>64229165
After you, milady
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So in a universe of robots, their would be no death, since none of them were ever alive? So when the last living thing die in the universe, Johnny 5 will still be around?
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>>64229316
All Creation exists in a loop, so Death's first kill is her from the previous loop.
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>>64229541
There is a robot Dream in Overture so I guess there's a robot Death.
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>>64228890
No. God appeared as an old man in a bowler hat in Lucifer.

And Mxy wears a derby hat. At least in WHttMoT.
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>>64229541
>Implying robots don't have souls

Fuck off back to Gaia Space Catholic.
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>>64229566
That sound like Nocturne's overall plot. Trying to find a way to break the loop. Anyway enough derailing from me.
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>>64229541

Don't be silly, anon. Robots live, and robots eventually die.

;_;7
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I want to cum inside Death
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>>64229820
I just want her to smile at me and tell me she loves me.
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>>64228890
No, God appeared as a man in a bowler hat.
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>>64223612
>Death is arguably the most powerful character in DC considering the Nu52 didn't carry over stuff from Lucifer.

What stuff didn't carry over, out of interest? God?
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>>64229882
I want to hold hands with Death
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>>64229820
>>64229882
>>64230042
I want to do all of the above at the same time
>>
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>>64230042
If you're sure.
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>>64229996
FOOLISH ANONYMOUS
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>>64229996
didn't god turn up as a dog? pretty sure, along with the endless, he's above the effects of things like flashpoint.
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>>64229996
not that guy and I haven't been reading DC lately, but if you knew how Lucifer ended, it is impossible that DC would follow it, too much weird shit happening with the universe and afterlife
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>>64230182
Lucifer was affected by it, and he wasn't even a part of the DC multiverse at the end of his run. He just flew off into the void of creation.
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>>64230132
>>64230182
From reading Phantom Stranger, it doesn't really feel like the Presence>Everthing else like pre-flashpoint. You could probably argue that he's on the same level as the New Gods, being outside of the multiverse.
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>>64230596
>Created everything
>exercises dominion over everything

Pretty sure he's the Boss, son
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>>64230665
>Believing what the Gods tell you.
I bet you think Darkseid is the Tiger Force at the center of all things too anon.
>>
>>64230751
But he really is, Anon. He's an important part of the material Multiverse.
>>
>>64229996
DC didn't carry over Lucifer? Though to be fair, it never felt like Lucifer was in the DC universe to begin with.
>>
>>64230848
Most Vertigo titles, and even WildStorm, never interacted with the main DC universe.

His club, Lux, is still on DC Earth though. And Death had an apartment in Los Angeles I think it was.
>>
>>64227679
Someone actually did a fapfic of a guy boffing Death
>>
>>64230848
He shows up in Demon Knights but acts as a generic devil figure rather than his old vertigo self.
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>>64230252
I hear Ennis hated Lucifer. Made some comment about Lucifer not being a angsty fag or somesuch
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>>64230252
To do what? I would love for Raidou to show up in the DCU, him or the Strange Journey MC. Mainline and Persona wouldn't fit well.
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>>64231115
>To do what?
Do you mean with him flying off? He just left. Elaine had become the new Presence at that point I believe. The original Presence offered Lucifer the chance to merge and he was like "NAH, LATER POPS." and Prince of Bel Air'd himself into the void.

At least, if I'm remembering correctly.

Just flew away. Going wherever the non-existent wind takes him.
>>
>>64231204
>>64231115

Should also mention, that he was no longer The Morningstar at this point.

He had passed his power onto Mazikeen. But, as far as anyone knew he was still the second most powerful being in existence. Beyond even Death herself.

The only Endless to have any domain over him was Destiny.
>>
>>64231082
Well fair cop to Ennis he had Lucifer and his own Unholy Trininty coexist in the Vertigo universe without it clashing, though that might just have been by editorial mandate. He just had the First of the Fallen be the first thing God made and when Lucifer fell from Heaven, he found Old Scratch already there as the occupying tennant of Hell.

Can't say Gaiman's Lucifer ever came across as angsty to me. He was just the second most powerful being in the universe bored to death by masochistic guilt tripping mortals who demanded to be punished to assuage their guilt and the prattling shit demons who bickered around him. He was bored with hell and he handed over the keys to Dream just to fuck with him and get some much needed R and R.
>>
>>64231115
>Raidou will never team up with Detective Chimp/Batman/Dr. Fate/etc ;_;
>>
>>64231250
I always though Angels/Lucifer>The Endless was weird.
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>>64231351
Seems like everyone is bound to their destiny.

At least that's what was implied after Lucifer destroyed his book, and the ashes still spelled out, what was it...Fenris or Yggdrasil?

Then he ended up killing Michael due to the Fenris debacle.
>>
>>64223818
>>
>>64231351
God > Lucifer and Michael > Endless > gods, angels, Spectre
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>>64231439
see >>64224659
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>>64231439

Wait never mind I'm a fag I just saw this >>64224659
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>>64231439
>>
>>64230914
>Most Vertigo titles, and even WildStorm, never interacted with the main DC universe.

I kind of liked how a lot of Vertigo titles were technically apart of the DC Universe, but rarely interacted with elements from the mainstream line.

It made the universe feel... bigger... to know that they were all inhabiting the same place, but that doesn't mean that they'd always be bumping into each other. Also, it's cool to think that while guys like Superman are dealing with universe-shattering stuff, there's even BIGGER stuff that they don't know about and is way above their paygrade, and that they don't even notice when a cosmic shift may occur.

Also, one thing that bothered me about Flashpoint was Pandora telling Barry to unite the "three timelines" or something. That made no sense because Vertigo and Wildstorm were each not single cohesive shared timelines, but imprints that may have unrelated titles from umpteen different universes. That, and a lot of Vertigo was already part of the DC Universe anyway. It just seemed like a lazy in-story way to say "Barry, cancel the other imprints and import their titles into the main DC Comics line!" But, of course, Barry's response would be like "...huh?"
>>
>>64231619
That's sort of what I liked about Final Crisis. When they called in the Supermen of the Multiverse. You got an idea about how many different fucks were out there, whether it be the same universe, or a different one.

The scope of DC was shown in that page alone.

Now everything has just been shaved down and all we ever hear about is Earth-Prime and Earth-2, especially now that the Earth-3 shit is done.
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>>64228380
Dream got involved with mortals a shitton of times.
Like that time with the African princess and the head dude' s (odepheus i think) mother.
>>
>>64231250
Oh boy did that piss him off.

rather depressing as well, all has been fortold it seems.

Larry:"I am going to out learn how to ride a bike!"
Book:Larry went out wanting to learn how to ride a bike, but was hit by a care.
Larry*SPLAT*
>>
>>64232006
"Well...I really liked that book. BUUUUUUUUUT, you're going to murder your brother. Sorry."
>>
>>64231351
>I always though Angels/Lucifer>The Endless was weird.

I recall The Sandman stating that the Endless were there even before gods. They're not even gods themselves, just these primordial beings that precede them.

Maybe it's like those primordial beings in Greek myth that preceded the Titans. Like, IIRC, in Theogeny and Works and Days, one day (in a manner of speaking), shit just pops out of Chaos (which is a void) for no given reason, and some of those primordial beings produce asexually, others mate, and eventually we have the gods.

Kind of a "what does the turtle stand on?" thing. Well, the turtle on the bottom is an abyss and that doesn't have to stand on anything because it's just so.
>>
>>64231619
>Also, it's cool to think that while guys like Superman are dealing with universe-shattering stuff, there's even BIGGER stuff that they don't know about and is way above their paygrade, and that they don't even notice when a cosmic shift may occur

This nigga gets it.
>>
>>64231840
Orpheus from Greek mythology.
>>
>>64227384
There's a certain irony to be using a life making organ in tribute to Death, yes.
>>
>>64232163
>I recall The Sandman stating that the Endless were there even before gods. They're not even gods themselves, just these primordial beings that precede them.
But thats why I think its weird. Maybe this is me being euphoric but The Endless always seemed like way more fundamental forces to me than Lucifer and the Angels.

Having said that though, I have no problem accepting that this is the way things are written and are. Just seems a little weird to me.
>>
>>64232841
I don't think just regular angels are above The Endless.

Lucifer and Michael were the first two begins to exist after The Presence. They created everything together.
>>
>>64232940
But clearly Lucifer wasnt immune to Destiny, Desire, and probably Dreaming.
>>
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>>64232841
my impression (which may be wildly inaccurate) was that the endless are part of creation, while the archangels preceded creation and have stewardship over it. if you imagine creation as a house, the endless represent the actual structure of the house, but the archangels are caretakers who come in and keep it clean and tidy.
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>>64231722
Anyone have the page this dude is talking about(The Supermen one)? I really wanna see it.
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>>64233108
He was clearly above Destiny in terms of power. He just had an inescapable event, being Fenris.

And he warped the entirety of the Dreaming against Dream's wishes. Dream even acknowledges he would be destroyed by Lucifer if they were in a confrontation.
>>
>>64233297
>>64233372
I know, and like I said, I dont really have a problem accepting that this is how things are.

I guess its a holdover from other fiction that makes me feel like it should be Death>The Gods and ive equated the rest of The Endless with Death.
>>
>>64234087
It's a question of influence and will. I could argue the only endless with free will was dream. Because he was the only one capable of imagining positive consequences to bucking his own role (If that makes sense). And lucifer trumped dream in both imagination and will power. The endless are the forest. Why would they want to burn the forest down or make the forest bigger? They grow as they grow, and fall when they are cut down. Lucifer has a gas can, matches, fertilizer and a grow lamp. He lives in the forest and is somewhat dependent on it (only in that the forest provides stimuli). So in a why the endless are greater than he is. But at the same time Lucifer can burn this mother down or cultivate it at his will. So Lucifer is greater than the endless, which is to say Lucifer has the ability to influence the endless more than the endless can influence him. (Only by a narrow margin, and not beyond the scope of the creators design, as represented as destiny.).
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>>64228380
>>64228634
I'm thinking, what about extra-universal entities? Like the Silk Man from Lucifer.
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>>64228454
New Endless can only be created from the flesh of older ones. The new Despair was created from Desire's rib, and Daniel is Morphy's son.
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>>64235477
>Daniel is Morphy's son
Isn't he Hector's son just conceived and born in The Dreaming?
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>>64223294
Haha

I love it. Whoever wrote this totally 'gets' both these characters perfectly. What issue/trade was this in? cuz I gotta own it. I hope it aint hard to find.
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>>64235677
it was in Cornell's Action Comics, I think both tpbs were called The Black Ring
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>>64235677
Plus Action Comics Annual 13

Yeah "The Black Circle"
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>>64230817
>exists past the speed force wall
Not material.
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>>64231569
Can someone transcript Hell?
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>>64235171
Look mang, I understand and I accept that this is the way things are. I believe that before Morpheus goes into Hell to get his helmet back at the beginning of the series, he states that Lucifer is more powerfull than him. Its all well and clear to me that this is how it as and it has been from the beginning.

Its just not my usual understanding of how these forces interact and I was surprised when I learned that this is the way things are, which is fine.

There's nothing to be argued or explained about here.
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>>64233307
>>
>>64232163
The turtle on the bottom swims. That's what turtles do. They swim.
>>
>>64236229
>Known to some as Sheol, or Jigoku, the burning Iron Place of Torment is home to Neron, Belial, Trigon, Azazel, Ahmogazzel (I know I'm spelling this wrong), Rath, Ohant, and the Demon Etrigan, high on a list of a legion of fiends. Here are the Djinns and the Fallen Angels, and the Haters of Humanity, waiting...
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>>64236452
>Black Dynamite is a Kryptonian
This explains so much.
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>>64235598
Hector was made of Dreaming at this point, and the Dreaming is Dream.
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>>64232841
I always got the impression that the Endless, while the first, were by no means the most powerful. They were fundamental forces, yes, but a lot of their power came from their absolute authority over things, rather than 'Rah! Power of a Billion Exploding Suns!'
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>>64234087
She holds authority over them, yes. But it's more because she's a sentient cosmic force, rather than a being of humongous power. It's not really Dragon Ball Z type power levels. It's the entire reason why the Furies, despite not even being gods, could attack the Dreaming and harm Morpheus, because they possess the authority to do so.
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>>64236614
His name is Sunshine Superman, he previously appeared in Morrison's Animal Man.
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>>64237016
It isn't even about authority, the only reason Dream died is he's a rulesfag, Desire or Delirium probably would have expelled the Furies and not gave a shit. The Endless are above the Erinyes, who ever heard of taking revenge on a concept?
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>>64236868
>>64237016
And my general understanding of being like The Endless is that because they are the fundamental forces, they should have the greater authority, thus be more powerfull and even operate on a higher scale of being. But that is not how story the is written here, and thats fine. Its just not how I personally expect stuff to work.

>>64237016
>>64237374
And shit, I havnt read all (or even most) of Sandman yet, so i'd better skedaddle
>>
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/tg/ brainstormed an incarnation of Death as a disgruntled blue collar who was tired of dealing with mortals and just shoved souls into his magic garbage bag.

More comic-relevant, has anyone ever drawn Marvel Death and DC Death in lesbian?
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>>64230937
didn't he start to show signs of his vertigo personality near the end?
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>>64238166
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>>64231840
Orpheus' mother was Calliope, the Muse.
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