So DC has Watchmen, Kingdom Come, TDKR, All-Star Superman and

Superior Spider-Man
/thread

Infinity Gauntlet maybe? I wish I knew Marvel better in times like this.

>>63612695
Marvels

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Daredevil: Born Again

Marville
Trouble
Miracleman

Miracleman now.

Honestly, that's part of the reason why they bought it.

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This whole arc

>>63612695
>Watchmen
don't know, but Watchmen is initially a response to Gerbers and Gregors doing "realistic" comics over at Marvel (some DC too, of course)

>TDKR
Well there's a Spider-Man rip off called Reign. Spider-Man also has a Killing Joke rip off called Death in the Family.

Wait, Kraven's Last Hunt. Yeah.

>Kingdom Come
>muh good times
Marvels, obviously

>All-Star Superman
don't know

Come think of it, Marvel is actually better at runs than self-contained stuff.

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/comics

Clearly Marvel 1602 and Hawkeye (2011) Vol. 1 are the top two Marvel Comics

>>63612772
>>63612768
>>63612817
Add AoA as well. It was 90s art at it's worse but it was the first big distopia story since DoFP

Marvel's strength has never been in self contained stuff like that, but in long extended runs, like Frank Miller's DD run, Lee/Kirby FF, Claremont's X-men, etc. etc.

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I feel like we just had this thread not a week ago.

>>63612892
I think there was one yesterday.

>>63612741
>Superior FOES OF Spider-Man
Fixed.

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>>63612892

>>63612695
DC alternates between GOAT and drek with a baseline mediocre. Marvel stays consistently at B- and ventures into C and B+ territory sometimes.

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>>63612921

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>>63612943
That is a factually inaccurate statement.

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>>63612973

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>>63612996

>80s are where the masterworks are

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>>63613007


>>63613014
If I had to pick one decade of comics to only read from forever it would be the 80s easily.

>>63612695

Marvels
Earth-X
Miracleman
Daredevil: Born Again
Kraven's Last Hunt
Spider-man: Blue and the rest of the marvel colors books
Squadron Supreme (similar concepts have been done better since, but at the time it was kinda groundbreaking and still holds up as a great read)

I'd say Marvels and Miracleman are their two best though. Miracleman being there Watchmen equivalent. Earth-x is their Kingdom Come equivalent (though art wise it'd be marvels obviously.)

>>63613014

You got it wrong, it's

>Anything before the 90s, that's where the masterworks are

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>>63613041

>>63613060
Anyone who actually believes this isn't looking hard enough into those decades.

>people saying Miracleman for Marvel
What the fuck?

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>>63613092
I wonder if people even look at the books that Marvel first brought to America as marvel titles, like in ePic with both AKIRA and the works of Moebius the former is was the first printing of the book in the West.

>>63613116
It doesn't make any sense to me either.

>>63612826
That's like two issues.

>>63612817
> Marville
Really anon?

>>63613116

Because Marvel now own the rights for it, and are reprinting it.

Basically like what >>63613139 is saying

>>63613116

What? Its officially a marvel comic now. Even if it wasn't at the time of initial printing, it is now. And the marvel recolors are pretty much the only way to get ahold of Miracleman nowadays.

>Marvels (although I didn't really like it)
>Silver Surfer (Parable, Requiem)
>Miller's Daredevil?
>1602?

>>63612892
Beat me to it.

>>63612695
Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme
The Death of Captain Marvel
Earth-X
Marvels

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>>63613139

>>63613177
>>That's like two issues.
pretty sure Anon was talking the Run.


Do people actually like 1602, I feel like I am walking into crazy world.

>>63613191
>>63613193
Yes but those are reprints.
Don't credit Marvel with Miracleman

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>>63613041
>Trippy Nick Fury covers
Yes, please.

>>63613219
If they're going to credit Marvel with it, DC deserves credit for it too since it's based on characters DC owns

>>63613215
>Anon was talking the Run
He said arc.

>Do people actually like 1602
Seems like we had a nice big wave of new people accidentally washing away some taste.

>>63613252
Then Charleston deserves credit for Watchmen.

>>63613252
That's stupid and unrelated

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>>63613215

I mean does the distinction really even matter, good comics are good comics regardless of length.

>>63612815
This.

Born Again is the closest thing to a work of art that Marvel has.

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Self Contained isn't just limited to 12 issues or less.

>>63613252

No it isn't. It's based on Marvelman, which is based on Fawcett Captain Marvel which is public domain.

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>>63613321
Your definition of art is pretty narrow then.

You can give someone the Simonson Thor or the Miller Daredevil or the Claremont/Byrne X-Men without any prior knowledge about that stuff and they work on the back of being good comics.

Self Contained can mean a lot of things.

>>63613321
God you're the worst new tripfag

>>63613393
Oh yeah, Marvel has a ton of nice, good runs. Plenty of good stories. I'm not denying that.

It's just... Born Again is... WOW. It's the only Marvel comic that springs to mind when I think of something that would deserve being on a 'greatest novel' list, or even in a museum. Have you seen Fraction's dissection of a Born Again issue? There's so much god damn depth in there.

>>63613432
>new
Love you too, anon.

>>63613444
>Enemy of the State bullshit

Please oh god no, I thought I escaped.

>>63613219

Reprints with redone coloring and new material continuing the previously unfinished run.

I'm not giving Marvel "credit" for it, but it is a marvel comic. Does DC deserve "credit" for Watchmen when it doesn't use any DC characters and had no editorial involvement? No. But it's still a DC published comic. The Authority is also DC, even if it wasn't originally published as part of DC comics.

Miracleman is a Marvel comic now. Even if it didn't used to be. Who should get credit for it? Eclipse? Not only are they not around anymore, Miracleman wasn't originally published by Eclipse. How 'bout Quality Communications, since they were the original publishers as part of Warrior? But then that'd mean V for Vendetta should also be attributed to them. But then those were published in black and white. It wasn't until Eclipse that they got color. So then does Eclipse get credit since they published the first color versions and continued the run when it moved away from Quality Communications? But then Marvel is ALSO recoloring it and continuing the previously unfinished run, as well as still being an actual comics publisher.

Not to mention Marvel actually got permission to print it from Mike Anglo, unlike Quality Communications which just jacked the character for their own ends.

Seems like DC has more excellent limited series and Marvel has more really great ongoing runs.

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>>63613441
But being in a museum or being on a best of list doesn't make it art, being created and enjoyed by people makes it art.

I mean how much depth is also only one way to look at the quality of something.

It just sounds like you haven't been exposed to that many great marvel books.

>>63613481
Never escape because it is amazing action comics.

>>63613191
>>63613219
Marvel isn't just reprinting old Miracleman, they're also going to be printing new Miracleman.

And at the end of Gaiman's run, Miracleman's going to move to 616.

And he'll marry Angela.

>>63612818
That's like Brett Rattner buying the rights to Schindler's List and Citizen Kane and saying he's a good director now.

>>63613563
It's like DC buying Wildstorm and now the good comics from Wildstorm are named when people ask for a list of good DC comics.

>>63613563
No it isn't because Marvel isn't claiming to have written drawn or colored it.

It isn't the same at all in fact the mere thought that you believe that at all is kinda sickening.

>>63613546

>Miracleman's going to move to 616.
Unlikely. My guess is they're going to start publishing something like "Miracleman: The Modern Age" which'll be an anthology book with rotating creative teams. Give Hickman, Bendis, Aaron, and all the marvel cronies a turn at writing it.

And they'll probably have a crossover with 616 at some point, but I doubt they'd just wholesale port the character over to 616 since he kinda... wouldn't really work in the main marvel universe too well? I mean, he'd kind of have to be an antagonist if they did that.

>>63613539
People always say this and then only list like 4 DC books

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>>63613540

>>63613393

Meh, except for that moment, Simonson's Manhunter and Orion are way better than THOR.

And Claremont is soap opera bullshit, not art.

>>63613622
>Give Hickman, Bendis, Aaron, and all the marvel cronies a turn at writing it
Please no.

>>63612815
I thought it was just ok

>>63613599

>or colored it
Well, yeah, they kind of are considering they're recoloring the whole thing.

>>63613622
Just restore him as Marvelman and put him in the Marvel Universe without any of the Miracleman stuff taking place.

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>>63613647

>>63613665
You can't talk about the art of Uncanny and not mention the most important part of that comic.

>>63613622
Miracleman: "What have I done? In destroying humanity's freedom, I destroyed its spirit as well! I'm a monster! Something something Nietzsche abyss! I wish I'd never taken over the world!"
Plot Device: "I can't help you turn back time, but here's an alternate universe where nobody's taken over the world."

Boom, Miracleman is in 616 *AND* he's happy with the status quo.

>>63613671

Eh. It'd be better than Before Watchmen at least.

>>63613693
You mean introduce a 616 version? That could work.

>>63613640
marveldrone, please.

>>63612695
Is there an essential list/chart for all these big, influential comics? Newfag here, want to figure out what to read

>>63613727

Yeah, it's really hard to say otherwise. DC's had some nice long runs, but MARVEL excels at the soap opera long form.

>>63613725
>It'd be better than Before Watchmen at least
I doubt it. It would probably be on the same level.

>>63613725
>You mean introduce a 616 version? That could work.
Exactly. This is the only way adding him to 616 would work. And calling him Marvelman would work as a way to distingush between the Moore/Gaiman stuff and the canon stuff.

Hell, they could even make him a kid again if they wanted to. (that would be a bad idea. Then he's just a Captain Marvel rip off again.)

>>63613715

I really don't see Miracleman being happy with 616 even with that. Consider that he was all about sharing superhuman technology, wisdom, and all that with the common man. In 616, you've got fuckers like Reed Richards and T'Challa hoarding the cures for cancer because humanity "isn't ready for it." To make Miracleman ok with that kind shit would be a total 180 on the character.

But I guess we'll have to wait and see how The Dark Age goes. I imagine Kid Miracleman's return should fuck things up appropriately enough to justify a drastic change to the character.

>bscoolgu British
Ain't that the truth, Captcha.

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>>63613687
No Marvel the company isn't, they are getting an artist to do it.

>>63613665
I would agree about Orion and also FF for that matter.

That is why these discussion should only be about talking about good comics because trying to say this company does this better always ends up being a load of bullshit.

What about Silver Surfer - Requiem?

>>63613640
It doesn't even work going the other way either.
DC has tons of great ongoings.

>>63613772
You want big? Go read Cerebus the Aardvark #001-300.

>>63613790

Before Watchmen being a prequel messes with characterization in Watchmen itself. A continuation of Miracleman, taking over after the run, would be less damaging just by virtue of all the backstory and characterization of the previous runs staying in tact.

Personally, I'd bust a nut if they got Morrison to write it. And boy would The Original Writer be PISSED.

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>>63613815
Comics fans do love their bickering and pointless vs. battles.

>>63613772
comraderecs.tumblr.com

>>63613844
Before Watchmen doesn't mess with Watchmen at all. They're separate things. Before Watchmen was trash, which I'd assume After Miracleman written by Marvel's poster boys would be.

>>63613853
But it's not even about saying X is better than Y. A comparison of quality is pointless bickering that I could understand.

It's about saying that X's long runs don't exist or that Y's short stories don't exist. What kind of person buries their head in the sand that much?

>>63613844
>implying Grant will ever work for Marvel again after what they did all over New X-Men

I'd love it so much for the jab at Moore, but it'll never happen.

I do think Marvel has had a problem with telling short-form stories. Even Born Again is an addendum to Miller's series.

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>>63613640
It's like hearing people extol the virtues of Vertigo, but only by mentioning Sandman/Preacher/Transmet/Y:The Last Man/etc.

No mentions of modern stuff like Shooters or The Alcoholic. No mention of MIlligan/Fegredo's Face one-shot. No mention of Peter Kuper's The System. Or the litany of stuff Vertigo published from the crap to the brilliant. It's always the same handful of series, most of them not even the strongest comics in their creators bibliographies, if you ask me, or several others.

Same with Moore praise just talking about his 80s cape work. Ignoring A Small Killing, Shadowplay, From Hell, etc. Even a lot of his cape fans are oblivious to his 90s and 00s work like 1963 and Top 10.

It's shallow, parroted opinions without understanding.

I'm not an expert. But I try and be informed as much as I can be.

>>63613918
I am honestly not sure if that is meant as a rhetorical question or not.

>>63613873
Terrible resource.

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God Loves, Man Kills
Days of Future Past
The Ultimates (1 and 2)
Winter Soldier
Dark Phoenix Saga
Kraven's Last Hunt
Marvels
DD: Born Again
SS: Requiem
Infinity Gauntlet, Wars and Quest
Secret War

Then there are the influential-but-suspect books like Civil War which is extremely popular despite dubious quality.

Marvel doesn't tend to place as much emphasis on one-shots, self-contained stories and else-worlds as DC does historically, but you can find gold if you look for it.

>>63613899

Well, there's also the fact that Miracleman has had more than one run anyways. It isn't just a self-contained 12 issue thing. It was an ongoing that just happened to get cancelled before the second run could finish. Watchmen was this totally on its own self-contained thing. Miracleman/Marvelman on the other hand has had the Mike Anglo run, the Alan Moore run, and the Gaiman run.

I agree that if they're going to do it, they'd better get their top creative team on it and not fuck around. But there's something just a bit less... offensive, I guess, about the idea of other people using Miracleman that wasn't there with other people using the Watchmen characters.

>>63613929
>I'm not an expert.
I trust you.

Conversely, I never trust anyone on /co/ who does think of themselves as an expert. No matter how much you've read, there's always something more to learn, something new to see.

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>>63613970

>Infinity Wars
>Infinity Quest

Anon pls.

>>63613942
>Terrible resource.
Not for what that anon was asking for, dick.

>>63613799
>>63613799

>...because humanity "isn't ready for it."

That's just the least-retarded way writers and editors can explain why there are any easily preventable problems in comic existence. Miracleman will just have to apply lotion to his sore ass if he has a problem with it because the alternative (no disease except SUPER DUPER SPACE AIDS, no hunger, etc.) would make a world too dis attached from ours that it would turn off readers.

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It is kinda weird how pervasive this very viewpoint has become.

It is probably thanks to bookstores and libraries. DC historically has done a much better job of keeping 'evergreen' titles in stock.

>>63614045
Yeah it is, it's too much stuff and has a lot of shit.

>>63614006
>>63613970
Thanos Quest niggas

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>>63614045
Yes actually it is.

That process of making those images being so desperate to fill each character and in and give everyone a fair shake has completely terrible quality control of any kind.

>>63613929
You. I like you.

>Even a lot of his cape fans are oblivious to his 90s and 00s work like 1963 and Top 10.
Not forgetting his early 2000AD work. His 3/4-page Future Shocks are some of the best short stories the medium's ever seen and should be ESSENTIAL reading for any aspiring creators

Also, someone or maybe some people should get together and cast some light on those forgotten corners of Vertigo. To this day I find myself thumbing through backissue longboxes and finding Vertigo series I've never once heard of (even if a name like DeMatteis' is attached)

>>63614065
Does Marvel even have 'evergreen' titles? Or things that they keep in print?

old man logan. self contained future story

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>>63613924
I've read Born Again, but not any other part of Miller's DD. Okay, except for that one issue with Gladiator they includein the trade because Mazz drew it before they did Born Again.

But anyways. It's still fantastic comics, and really doesn't need much background at all. I got it all. Kingpin hates Matt because he's a terrifying control freak and Matt's been gnawing at him. This girl is his former lover. He has strong senses, etc.

Is there some nuance I'm missing? Probably. But Mazzucchelli and Miller's deft and powerful skills at making comics are still well in play.

I don't need 50 issues of continuity to enjoy a strong piece of Christian-messiah imagery, or a slick sequence of a subway beat-down, or the crumpling weight of two long-separated and long-suffering lovers collapsing into each other's arms.

And Richmond Lewis's colors have some of my favourite uses of hot pink in a comic, ever.

>>63613995
Cool point dude. Personally I'm always humbled by finding out how little I know and I' just eager to learn more.

I also hate outright declaring things "THE BEST". Kind of a needless line in the sand and placing a ceiling on stuff, for me personally.

>>63614119
I love the... I think it's a Time Twister (?) about the time-travel cops, with Gibbons. Amazing short story writing in some of them. Love his DR and Quinch stuff too.

>>63614230
I, too, eagerly await the day when /co/ learns the difference between "best" and "favorite".

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>>63614230
This is the key right here.

People often assume they need to know more for a given story than they do and a lot of that is fueled by places like this giving you a flowchart when you ask to read a comic when the comic in question doesn't require that in the slightest.

People frequently underestimate their own ability to comprehend a story as it is happening and take for granted not knowing everything going in.

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>>63614276
There is and never will be a distinction between those two things as long as you are talking about Art.

It is an impossibility.

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>influential
Claremont's X-Men and Miller's Daredevil spring to mind. I'll argue those were probably Marvel's strongest runs and writers in the 80's.

>>63614320
And now they both suck.

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>>63612817
I am thoroughly enjoyin this b8

>>63614320
Too long. OP isn't looking for *that* kind of "big".

>>63614097

Oh, yeah, Thanos Quest is great. I assumed you meant Crusade considering you said Infinity Quest.

War is still ass though.

>>63614353
OP said Self Contained Claremont / Byrne X-Men and Miller Daredevil Are that.

>>63612695
Ultimate Spider-Man
With Peter Parker

Show me your moves, /co/

>>63614345
So does Alan Moore, Niel Gaiman, and Grant Morrison but that doesn't diminish the fact they have contributed good work to the comics medium

>>63614353
God Love Man Kills then. Even though it is hella weak compared to a lot of Claremont's other work it ends up on a lot of people's BEST X-STORIES EVER TOLD lists.

>ctrl-F
>X-statix
>0 results

Shame on you, /co/.

>>63614345
The one who doesn't draw does.

>>63614408
X-Statix is good but I wouldn't call it influential at all.

What comics can you think of that have directly took cues from it?

>>63614443
All New Doop :^)

>>63614401
>Even though it is hella weak compared to a lot of Claremont's other work it ends up on a lot of people's BEST X-STORIES EVER TOLD lists.
For the average comic reader, the willingness to try a comic is based more on size than quality.

>>63614443
I could say the same thing about Kingdom Come, everything it said already had been by 1996 plus at least X-Statix looks good.

>>63614401

Except Morrison and Gaiman are still producing solid stuff.

The problem with Claremont is that modern comic storytelling has moved away from his style. It just doesn't really work as well now as it used to, and where Gaiman and Morrison's styles have adapted with the times, more or less, Claremont wasn't able to adapt properly.

And the problem with Miller is that he went crazy after 9/11.

>>63614469
Same writer, doesn't count.

>>63614482
generalizations HO!

>>63614489
>Gaiman
>Adapted to Modern Styles

Are we living on the same planet?

>>63614485
But Kingdom Come is more influential because, even though it only repeated what earlier/better comics had said, more people read Kingdom Come.

>>63614443

Oh wait are we going specifically with "influential" stuff? I was under the impression we were just suggesting the cream of the crop stuff. Cause there are plenty of "influential" books that I wouldn't consider the greatest books Marvel has ever published.

I'd say Bendis' early Ultimate Spider-man is one of the most influential comics of the modern era because it practically wrote the book on decompressed storytelling. But as much as I like USM, I wouldn't call it one of Marvel's best ever comics. Likewise, the works of Liefield were hugely influential, influencing an entire decade of comics and introducing many characters that have become incredibly popular since, like Deadpool and Cable. But his work is still ass.

>>63614408
I was about to post it!

>>63614443
X-Statix killed the Comics Code. Well, it was dying anyways, but it was the effective coup de grace that paved away for a lot of things that the CCA was still iffy about endorsing.

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I'd argue that Marvel is more influential to mainstream comics, but DC has more success when experimenting with the art form.

>>63613041
Steranko was a fucking wizard. He doesn't get enough credit.

>>63614485
Wasn't JLA sort of/kinda influenced by Kingdom Come? In how Morrison positioned it? Kinda?

>>63614562
That still seems like generalization without basis.

And No one mentions Planet Hulk.
Disgraceful.

>>63614610
Its good, massively over-hyped the extent of that like most of the cosmic books are here.

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>>63614555
Forgot pic

>>63614570
I wouldn't say so. Kingdom Come was very anti-new. The only "new characters" allowed to shine were new costumes on old characters.

JLA was very pro-new. Morrison and Porter were happy to use Kyle and Wally, and Conner Hawke, and get Steel on there too, and throw in someone new like Aztek.

I think JLA also eschewed some of the weighty portentous style of KC in favour of more buzzing energy and exuberance. I think JLA had a smile where Kingdom Come had a grimace.

For all it's tirades against the Liefeld Brigade, I think early X-Force issues (when Liefeld was still trying and experimenting) have an unbridled energy, color and design that makes them enjoyable reads in a way I don't get from Kingdom Come at all.

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>>63614642
It is very easy to see how that stuff would look like a breath of fresh air to kids of the era it started coming out.

People like to think it was all the market that made those guys stars but it is the opposite, they became huge stars and then the market warped around them.

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>>63614689
There definitely is a lot of dynamism on display in like Liefeld, or Todd MacFarlane's Marvel comics. And I still see artists nearly directly copying Todd poses for Spider-man sometimes.

I like stuff, like this image here, where there's these shutters of hot pink rectangles behind Cable that have a staccato effect as my eye reads across the image, creating a shuddering rhythm perfect at getting across the concept of multiple shots being fired. It's a visual equivalent of a film score/sound design with pounding drums and bangs.

There's some appalling stuff in the comics too. But I'm far from quick to vilify these guys. It's definitely worth examining why they got so huge and popular.

>dat pic
1.) Is that a reactor in your pocket or are you happy to see me?
2.) Welcome to Crotch City, population: You
3.) How many people does it take to please Master Mold? A team of 25 civil engineers.
4.) They call him Mr Three Mile Island for a reason

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>>63613219
>Crediting a company with a comic at all

>>63613252
So DC doesn't deserve credit for Watchmen?

>>63615225
No, not in the slightest.

>>63614894
Are you Sarah Horrocks?

Too many people focus on the anatomy of how Liefeld, Lee, and McFarlane drew people and never past that and it's a really shitty mindset that hasn't gone away and is used to judged everyone now.

>>63615289
Well there was that dumb website that everyone would pass around only about that stuff

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>>63615289
No I'm not. I really doubt she'd post here. But those series of articles she id on X-Force really hit on a lot of points I felt, but in a more articulate way than I can get across.

Hence why I borrow one of the images from her discussion.

Personally I'm still struggling with Jim Lee. He's the guy I can get behind the least. I really liked the black and white story he did with Warren Ellis for Batman: Black and White where he was going for something halfway between Miller on DKR and Miller on Sin City.

And it bothers me how people don't give credit to Liefeld for some good design choices (amidst a lot of bad ones). Like even Alex ross said that after he drew Magog enough times, the metal arm and big ass shoulder pad and everything really grew on him, despite him initially using those aesthetics to mock Liefeld.

And see how great Cable looks when Mignola draws it, with no changes at all? He's solid like a fucking rock. Design getting across who the character is (stoic solider) and where he comes from (devastated future of scavenged uniforms)

And yeah, bad anatomy is bad. But it's not the be-all-and-end-all. Kirby admits he just made up muscles that he thought looked good. Most of these modern "strict anatomists" have no consideration for how distorted human bodies look in motion anyways. They create another kind of fake-ness that masquerades as "real" and "correct"

>>63615263
>in the slightest

Yes they do. It's influenced a lot of what's come since.

DC the corporation collectively "thinks of itself" as the company that made Watchen, Moore be damned.

>>63612695
Thor godkiller arc. Art and story are both pretty great. Buy the godkiller and godbomb trades, and you can skip everything else.

>>63614689

>It is very easy to see how that stuff would look like a breath of fresh air to kids of the era it started coming out.

As a kid of that era, I thought that stuff was fucking awesome at the time. Obviously it looks shitty in retrospect, but at the time 90s X-books with Jim Lee and Liefield were energetic and bombastic and extreme at a time where extreme was cool and fresh. It was dark yet fun.

>>63612695

What is up with Galactus' boner trifecta over there?

>>63615652
They can think that, but it does not mean they deserve the credit, if any.

>>63612831
reign was alternately hilarious(to laugh at) and awesome.

Earth X is almost as good as Kingdom Come.

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>>63615599
And there is a great celebration of the male form in some of Jim's 90s stuff that I think was cool, now that I think about it. Would he pose Psylocke in those silly sexy stances? Yeah. But he'd also have vaguely homo-erotic, sexually charged moments with half-naked Gambit and Wolverine.

Like a proto-Empowered in it's shared celebration of equal opportunity sexuality. These guys aren't just power fantasies, they're sexual fantasies too.

His action could be poorly constructed though, and that gets me, cos he draws a lot of it. But he made his characters sweat, and little things like that were cool and reaching a verisimilitude. Yeah Gambit was being "badass" in a cliche way, but it wasn't effortless. He'd get some good character acting in there.

And when you're ding soap operatic heavy X-men comics, you NEED some good character acting in your art.

>>63615719

That's not Galactus, it's Master Mold.

>>63612996
reading Earth X made me feel very uneasy like Kingdom Come did, it was a hopeless future that I hope to.never see come to pass.

>>63615764
It was the first Marvel comic I ever read, and JPL blew me away with what he could do. Kreuger stringed together a lot of complex stuff into a form I could understand very well, with no basis in Marvel aside from Spider-man: The Animated Series, and Ross did do some great designs.

I just think it's such a great comic. JPL is still one of my all time favourites. Reading The Winter Men sealed that forever, but Earth X sparked it.

>>63614689
Gideon's fucking hair. I still don't understand it. The fuck was Gideon's power anyway? Also Domino, she needs to be in a movie already.

>>63615684
whoops, I missed the part about influential. I thought you just wanted good.

>>63612772
As a kid I loved Marvels, my uncle let me borrow his trade of it (which he let me keep, and I still own it 20 years later) and I thought Alex Ross was incredible.

Then I saw he had single issues of Ruins in his comic pile and he absolutely refused to let me read it, which I understand why now.

But yeah, I definitely think Marvels is definitely a jewel in Marvel's crown.

>>63614107
In what fucking order is that page supposed to be read?
Was it intentional? Is the story it is from about paranoia or something?

>>63616413
Besides the card machine and reading the card at the bottom of the page the page is showing various things all happening at once. There is no wrong way to read it as long as you go from top left to bottom right.

>>63616413

The order doesn't really matter, you're just meant to take the whole thing in, then move on to the next page.

Bump because there are interesting post and hopefully more people will read them.

>>63612695
The Thanos Imperative.

Gla misassembled

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>>63616140
>mfw I've only read Ruins and know of Marvels because the former was a parody of the latter.

>Squadron Supreme
>Inhumans
>The Death of Captain Marvel
>God Loves, Man Kills
>Ultimates 1 and 2
>Earth X
>Marvel Boy
>Nextwave
>Warren Ellis's Ultimate Fantastic Four (the preceding intro arc is pretty decent but not totally necessary, but the two stories after that... holy shiiiiit people forget how good they are)
>Soon to be Ellis and Shalvey's Moon Knight unless the final issue is hot garbage or something

>>63613321
Have you read Paul Jenkins and Jae Lee's Inhumans? I feel like that would be right up your alley.

>>63613640
>>63613929
>>63614119
>>63614282
Wow. Damn, this is a good thread. I totally agree. If you truly like comics, you should always try to learn more about comics and never act like you know it all. Always keep your mind open, always try to learn more about the books you're talking about, and always dig more into the catalogs of the creators whose work you enjoy.

Thank you, guys.

marvel mangaverse

>>63612695
>So DC has Watchmen, Kingdom Come, TDKR, All-Star Superman and others I'm forgetting. What about Marvel? What "big" influential comics does it have to offer? Preferably self-contained.

Marvel lets its writers tell good stories in continuity

>>63621624
Oh snap!

House of M

DOFP

Great Lakes Avengers

>>63612695
Secret Wars
Infinity Gauntlet
The Night Gwen Stacy Died
Birth Of Venom

It's hard to compare them because Marvel is not so much into big/epic novels. They like good-consistent runs better because of their target audience and publishing methods

>>63622213
One of these things is not like the others.
One of these things, doesn't belong.

>>63612826
The whole run.

Yes, the whole run.

>>63623761
The Claremont Run or the Claremont/Byrne run?

Marvel has never made anything on the level of a DKR, Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Hellblazer or Sandman. Ever.

>>63615225
DC owned the Charlton characters when Watchmen was released, they just told Moore he couldn't use them.

>>63613139
Whoa shit akira in color? What the fuck am I looking at?

>>63624346
I think thats kind of unfair. While marvel has no single series or book that rises to that level they have been highly influential as a whole. Their whole sum is equal to DCs parts.

>>63624346
very unfair statement.
also, Uncanny X-Men (Claremont), Punisher (by Ennis), Silver Surfer Parable (Lee & Moebius)

look, DC has a lot of great comics, but so does Marvel

>>63615225
>>63625276
This. If DC let Moore use those Charlton characters, Watchmen might be a different story all together since Moore needs to stick with the original characterization of each character before adding his own spin to each of them.

>>63612973
Holy shit. Doom and Strange under Mignola?


Veni

>>63613815
Eh? Only if you like batman.

I often see the statement "Marvel has better runs", which isn't true. DC has just as many great runs as Marvel.

Nextwave. You know that is the real shit.

>>63626201

DC has great runs, but when I think of super influential LONG runs, it's all Marvel.

Claremont, Morrison's X-Men
Simonson's Thor
Bendis, Miller, Brubaker on Daredevil
Brubaker's Cap
Lee, Byrne, Hickman's Fantastic Four
Lee, Slott, JMS Spider-man

With DC it's mostly Batman writers that come to mind. Not that it's a bad thing, mind you, but that's just the vibe I've always gotten.

DC has been putting more emphasis on long runs with the New 52, though, and less on limiteds it seems.

It might not be PURELY Marvel, but Miracleman is the best thing Moore wrote. It's a shame that it's taken this long to get out there in the mainstream because of all the legal bullshit.

Also, Gaiman will be finishing his story, and that WILL be published by Marvel as new, so it'll be as Marvel as Watchmen is DC.

I'm really curious to see what they'll do with him after Gaiman closes his story. If they bring a Miracleman to 616 (which I think they will), I just hope they keep it 100% separate from the Moore/Gaiman MM universe, and let some big shot take a crack at a third run.

Personally, I'd vote Hickman, but I'm biased. It'd be awesome if they could get Morrison to come back and go nuts on it. As long as Bendis stays far, far, far, far away from it.

>>63612695
Marvels. Earth X maybe.

1602 - Awesome take on the MU

Squadron Supreme - the style is dated, but it's every bit as good of a deconstruction as Watchmen is, without being grimdark

Marvels - Might as well be subtitled "comic perfection." It perfectly shows why I prefer the more grounded Marvel Universe to the fantastical DC Universe

Ultimates - Maybe not a "masterpiece" and a bit dated now, but it was the Watchmen of the 00s, and had a huge impact on the superhero comics that followed

Those are probably my favorites, off the top of my head.

Marvel's problem is that they don't have a Vertigo equivalent. Icon is basically just a place for Marvel's pet creators to play, and nothing truly amazing has come out of it.

Secret Wars
Death of Gwen Stacy
Chris Claremont X-Men
Ultimate Spider-Man Vol 1.
Annihilation

>>63614065

For someone who grew up in Japan, the Marvel hard-on for Japanese things is annoying as fuck. The kanji are meaningless and look like shit, and every Japanese character is always going on about "muh heritage" and "muh honor".

>>63629083
>Marvel's problem is that they don't have a Vertigo equivalent.
Maybe Marvel's problem is that you weren't paying attention when we told you to try out their Epic imprint.

>>63628975
Maybe it's your own fault for reading too much Batman and not enough from the rest of the catalog. Try some more Ostrander and Grell and Levitz and Weisman and Wolfman and Perez and Kubert.

>>63629190

First off, Epic isn't current, and that's more what I was talking about.

Secondly, while there's some good Epic books, they don't have nearly the quantity that Vertigo does.

>>63621492
So glad to see someone mention Ellis's Ultimate Fantastic Four. People always talk about Millar and Bendis with the Ultimate Universe, but Ellis's contribution on UFF and the Galactus Trilogy are among the best things Marvel put out in the last decade.

>>63629400
Current Vertigo isn't the Classic Vertigo that you remember either. Current Vertigo is more akin to... Icon.

>>63625353
Yeah, the first Akira comics in the US were in color. I think it was also the first comic Marvel colored digitally.

>>63628975
>influential
>Slott, JMS Spider-man
Ok.

>>63629492
Eh, Vertigo still puts out more material than Icon and has creators working for them that have no ties to the main line.

>>63629623
Where did I say they were influential?

They're still big and mostly critically acclaimed runs (let's just ignore One More Day for once)

>>63612695
Marvel has good story arcs, but marvel comics have never been really good at self-cointained, big and influental. Marvel is the lighthearted and fun comic group.

But to what you're looking for... maybe something like Wolverine by Miller, or Kravens Last Hunt. I guess cross-overs like Sescret Wars were quite influental in their time?

I've always felt that Spider-man Blue was pretty underrated.

Marvels and Earth X make wonderful bookends for the Marvel Universe as a concept, in my opinion.

>>63629492
Fables (will be over soon)
The Unwritten
Astro City
FBP

That alone is a pretty solid list, and very diverse.

There's also miniseries like The Wake and Trillium, and the Vertigo Quarterly anthology.

Icon has a total of five writers, and most of the Bendis and Millar output (which is over half of Icon's titles) is pretty weak, not to mention constantly delayed.

>>63629340
>>63626201
A problem though is that all of DC's good runs are overshadowed by the DC comics that "shook things up". Shit like DKR, Watchmen, Kingdom Come, etc. Everyone kind of just goes full Top 40 with that sort of shit because they are books that caught attention outside of the comicsphere.

>>63629744
The Unwritten will also be over soon, Astro City is an import, and Cyan was a pretty big disappointment.

>>63629744
Hinterkind
Coffin Hill
American Vampire
Deadboy Detectives
The Royals
The Kitchen
Bodies
The Names

>>63629775
Oh dang - didn't know Unwritten was ending.

Yeah, Astro City is an import, but it's still a Vertigo book now, even if it wasn't before. V for Vendetta was an import as well.

I haven't actually read Cyan yet. I only heard good things, but you know how comic reviewers can be.

So many pretty pages.

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>>63624346
I will argue for

Born Again
Elektra Assassin
and
Weapon X

Forever.


Also naming the entire works of Sandman and Hellblazer is problematic when both titles slump like crazy, also I am assuming you are talking about Moore Swamp Thing because again slumps.


These threads breed too many assumptions that would be soved by people reading more comics.

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>>63612695
For DC I'd also include Sandman
Just all of Sandman and like JLA: A League of One.

Marvel has Marvels.
I know there is more because there has to be but everything that comes to mind is like One More Day.
To be fair it was influential in underlining what never to do.
As an aside JLA: Tower of Babel was garbage but the premise was really great and influential aka if you ever met Batman he knew about you weeks in advance and already has a plan to take you down.

>>63631587
I'll agree on Hellblazer, but when do you think Sandman slumps? I've read it multiple times now and each arc is fucking fascinating to me.

>>63612695
am I the only one who see's the Smokestack is clearly Mastermolds Dick!?

>>63633196
Nope >>63614919 >>63615719

>>63633134
I only like a handful of Sandman so I guess slump is the wrong word for that one and just not that good should go in its place.

>>63628975

I think it's way too early for some of those runs to be called super influential especially JMS run which introduced a bunch of crap that was mostly washed away except for the bad penny, Morlun. Brubaker just kinda followed up Bendis stuff though didn't he? I remember Mr. Fear. Brubaker had Bucky come back so there's that. Slott's still too early to be determined.

>>63628975
I think the larger problem is you only listing the artists of these super influential runs when they happen to also be the writer.

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They don't. Marvel has plenty of great runs, but as far as "GOAT self contained graphic novels" I can't think of any. Spider-Man Blue, Hulk Grey, and Daredevil Yellow immediately spring to my mind as potential equivalents, but they're not on the same level. Spider-Man did have a self contained story called "Spider-Man Reign" which was pretty much just TDKR, but it was pretty awful. Different business structure I suppose, one of the main differences between DC and Marvel.

>>63637754
So you said that without looking at the thread right?

>>63615764

Come on guys Earth X is shit.

I can't really think of any legend tier Marvel comics. Marvels lacks soul. Any Punisher or Daredevil stuff is just /co/ being a fan girl.
AoA and Old Man Logan are alright, but they can't compare to TDKR and certainly aren't even in the same league as Watchmen, not to mention The Sandman.

You know what's the best Marvel thing I've read in the past 10 years? X-Force, starting with the archangel saga or whatever. But that's just an entertaining series, not the stuff legends are made of.

>>63629083

>1602

Half baked cake right there

>Comparing SS to Watchmen

fucking kek

>Marvels

pls no

>Ultimates

shit taste proof

>>63629931
Half of people's favourite "Vertigo comics" are imports from other imprints, or just mainline DC Comics.

Sandman, Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Transmetropolitan (from Helix), Shade the Changing Man, Hellblazer, etc.

Some Wildstorm comics are now reprinted as Vertigo like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

I genuinely can't remember what imprint A History of Violence was printed in, but it's Vertigo now.

So when people praise Vertigo, I don't know who or what they're actually praising.

Karen Berger as editor? Using it as short-hand to refer to a huge collective of writers and artists that would be too unwieldy to fully list?

I fear half the time the label is uttered as magic word. As if "Vertigo" is just this magic idea that instantly makes great comics. Rather than a bunch of people who worked for Time Warner and sought out people to make comics when they still had such little oversight from their bosses as to be able to draft attractive contracts.

>>63638033
Earth X is great. John Paul Leon is our generation's Toth for clarity and simplicity of expression and design, but with his own unique sense of density and emotion.

The rest of your comment just bugs me. "lacks soul" sounds to me like a purposefully vague statement so as to make it impossible to attack and a a dream to defend. I don't know how you can say anything Frank Miller does isn't loaded with invective or passion or anger or joy or some kind of deep rooted emotion.

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Congratulations OP. You just summed up why some people prefer DC over Marvel.

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>>63638233

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>>63638217
I agree with so much of this post, bravo sir.

Also there is Vertigo that is 100% Vertigo out there to praise it is just snuck in between the cracks.

Hell Earth X runs circles around Kingdom Come in terms of everything.

>>63613772
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2013/11/04/2013-top-100-comic-book-storylines-master-list/

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/10/07/2012-top-100-comic-book-runs-master-list/

This helped me a lot when I was on entry level.

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>>63612695
Damn, I wish I had gotten into this conversation when it was fresh. Must have missed it. Oh well.

>>63638217

>Earth X
>clarity

u wot m8

And Marvels looks nice. That's as far as you can go with it. Get past the pretty envelope and it >lacks soul

>your comment bugs me

am I anon
am I

D'Armatta is the worst mainstream colourist. Big fan of Paul Leon from the old days and the guy with his shitty colours ruind Leon/Brubaker's Cap

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Claremont's run on the X-Men is getting a documentary: http://vimeo.com/ondemand/claremontxmen/93204832

I couldn't decide between the three pic so...

Well they've got Nextwave and Incredible Hercules.

>>63640298
>is getting
Apparently it was released when the last movie came out.
>slowpoke.jpg

Still, documentary.

>>63640298
Now if only Marvel would collect the middle portion of his run in something other than those phone books.

>>63627609
underrated post

What does /co/ think of The Twelve?

>>63638287
Milligan+Fegredo is my personal idea of Vertigo.

I'm probably very anomalous in their one-shot Face being ym favourite comic to ever come out of Vertigo.

But Vertigo is so huge and varied. The Weird Western mini with Paul Pope and Brett Lewis+Eduardo Risso, or Shooters. Or The Quitter. Or Prince of Cats. So I don't know what's "true Vertigo" because my view of Vertigo is too varied, from style and tone and quality to everything.

>>63638365
I don't even want to defend Marvels in the slightest mate, to be honest. Alex ross looks like he's making filtered fumetti half the time. Fumetti is the fotonovel sense of the word, rather than just the Italian word for comics,

But to say Frank Miller's comics lack passion is an outright lie. In fact, a lot of people complain about how angry or disgusted or passionate they can get.

And John Paul Leon makes some of the best comics of the past several years. He tells a story with images that's understated but never lacking. He ties pictures together with such sense. Knowing how long you can skip between moments. Nailing timing, and character acting and space and exactly how much ink to use in the moment, whether that be a sparse amount or pouring blacks more solid than onyx over the page

>>63643790
I wouldn't be the biggest JMS fan personally.I think Weston did some nice work, but I'm not sure the coloring helped him

>>63643790
It's more than MODOK's Eleven.
But it's less than Captain America and the First Thirteen.

The incredible hercules run is great from start to finish but the first few issues are absolute comedy classics that perfectly blend in Greek mythology. I'd call them must reads

>>63644685
>first few issues
>not including Love and War
what the hell is wrong with you

>>63629083
>Icon is basically just a place for Marvel's pet creators to play, and nothing truly amazing has come out of it.

Criminal?

>>63612695
Probably Civil War is what you are looking for.

Not even saying it is good or anything, but it is a big story-line that people just barely into comics would have heard of and know something about.

Marvel is best know for their movies these days.

>>63645608
Incognito, too. I mean, Criminal is better, no doubt. But I like Incognito a lot too.

Powers is cool. Michael Avon Oeming is great, and apart from moving their comic to Icon, Bendis and MVA did new material for and at Icon too.

Casanova's great too.

>>63629083
>Ultimates
>Watchmen of the 00s
Kill yourself

>>63645715
>Marvel is best know for their movies these days.
Maybe the 'Days of the Future Past' arc will become more mainstream now with the movie.

>>63645715
>mfw the third Avengers movie is based on Civil War

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>>63612695
>implying DC/Marvel combined didn't have the best self-contained comic of all time.
OP confirmed for being a dirty bastich.

>>63638233
>some people

DC has more books since 1990 by Grant Morrison.

Therefore they objectively win.

>>63612695
Squadron Supreme
The Death of Captain Marvel
Earth X

>>63612695
Okay, first thing first
You know how many "big influential" Batman tories did Frank Miller wrote?
2
TDKR and Year One.
You know what was REAL influence on later Batman books? What redefined them?
Frank Miller's Daredevil.

>>63612831
> Spider-Man also has a Killing Joke rip off called Death in the Family.
Death in the Family is batman story.

>>63655518

I think he meant Kraven's Last Hunt?

>>63629744
Don't forget American Vampire, it's the best book at Vertigo.

>>63613929
You're a good man, anon.

>>63612695
Earth X
Don't read the sequels, you don't need them.
Just read Earth X.

>>63650929
>like 10 superheroes fighting each other

pls no

>>63655530
That's not really a Killing Joke knock off at all.

He means "A Death in The Family" by Paul Jenkins and Humberto Ramos.

It's not good.

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>>63658370
This is the moment that tries to go full Killing Joke

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>>63658416
It's followed by Spider-man being so mean to Green Goblin...

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>>63658425
...that he contemplates suicide

It's one of the most outrageously stupid and silly things I've read.

>>63658416
>Mister Coffee
Ok.

Nextwave.
It's like Shakespeare. But with lots more punching.

>>63658416
>>63658425
>>63658444
This art is atrocious

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4 issue run of Loki

>>63659281
ur mom is atrocious

Also 4 issue run of Silver Surfer: Requiem

>>63658493
Yeah, don't ask me to explain that one. I got nothing.

>>63659281
It's probably some of Ramos's bets stuff, because it's consistent in it's proportions.

Although the spatial relations in this page are weird:>>63658425

Goblin is sitting against a wall. He stands up and the wall disappears. He's blatantly satnding still but the distance between him and Peter narrows, and there's no sign of the wall and the stoop from panel 1, the area around him is open for a few meters.

In panel 5 the raised area Peter was standing on is gone, it's all uneven surface now.

Maybe thy were moving, but they're depicted clearly standing still talking.