Vegetarianism/Veganism

>what's wrong with eating eggs and milk

i'm not vegan but how can you not get this? chickens kept in huge groups and tiny cages for eggs, cows kept constantly pregnant and in terrible conditions being fed total garbage for milk

pretty obvious

>>7363765
I think you're kinda missing the points. What exactly are your morals?

For instance, I tend to avoid animal products because I eat a ridiculous amount of them and get fat and broke. I suppose this is a moral stance.

>>7363817
This, basically.
I'm an ex-vegan.
They get slaughtered anyway after their milk production declines and I'm sure it's the same for chickens and eggs. The animal food industries are linked.

Fish are the only animal we allow to suffocate to death. Fishing itself is a pretty brutal act. And I fish all the time. Just something to consider

>>7363817
Raise your own chickens? Raise your own goats?

I live in California and I literally live right across the street from people raising both in their backyard

What makes you think I don't get it?

>>7363895
>He doesn't strangle his own goats
>laughing_satanists.png

>>7363902
>>7363817
Also not all people who eat meat or drink milk are mouth-breathing redneck retards.

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>>7363902
Contrary to what media may tell you, California is not what the rest of the country is like. In fact a lot of places are unlike both California AND New York.
To explain, it's not legal to raise livestock in cities in the majority of the country. Neighbors don't want to hear that shit.
Most people dont have the understanding of how to raise animals, being from cities. Most people are unwilling to raise animals and are especially unwilling to kill, skin and gut them. Not to mention the stench of shit.
Many vegetarians' moral qualm is bout the killing itself firstly, and about the conditions secondly. It's the idea that someone is killing animals excessively, that you don't actually need to eat, because it fits your preference. If you look at the double standard of morality in a racist person, they extend certain dignities to certain races. Most people do the same for certain species. Vegetarianism and veganism, when done for moral reasons, attempts to fix the perceived inconsistency of having separate sets of morals for an in group and an out group, which is contrary to modern egalitarian thought.
I just stopped being as moral as I was, but the logic is consistent if you believe in universal morality.

>>7363976
That makes sense but there is still a huge number of people who live outside of cities

Also, I didn't make it clear but I was just talking about using chickens for eggs and goats for milk

It's possible to become self sufficient for a lot of people if they're willing to put in the effort

Also chickens and goats aren't very loud if you only have enough to provide you and your family with what you need

>>7363765
There is an inverse relationship between how much meat you eat, and your moral superiority. Unfortunately, being a carnist, this makes you a bad person, by definition. I hope your parents have forgiven themselves for bringing you into this world.

>>7363916
People who insist you're going to die of B12 deficiency unless you have a huge chunk of third-rate CAFO shitmeat boiled in antibiotic hormone milk three meals a day 7 days a week (i.e., most of you who get triggered by veganism) are, without exception, mouth-breathing redneck retards.

>>7364112
Okay...but I never said anything like that. You're just focusing on one segment of the population.

>>7364101
Fucking lol

>>7364086
A lot of those people tend to be farmers anyway. That's what the country is for.
My grandparents own a piece of land with a trailer on it in the thumb of Michigan, and there was an ass up there one year whose voice carried like crazy. The amount of walls in a city or suburb would dampen that but if the goat is even half that loud there'd be trouble with cranky neighbors. Chickens would be cockadoodlin' unless that's mainly the cocks doing the doodlin'.
Unfortunately, civilization thrives on making people codependent.
I might try to become more self sufficient one day but I'm currently living in an apartment on savings from a previous job, waiting for financial angst to justify looking for work, so now's not the time.

>>7363765
Eggs might be ok if the farm conditions are good, but most of the time they're really really not.

Milk production requires repeated insemination of the mama and the resulting baby is either killed or becomes veal. Even with utmost care it is not very nice.

>why not just eat fish?
Better yet, eat shellfish. They don't even have brains and yet are a superior source of animal nutrients.

>>7363902
that's not realistic for everyone, what kind of response is this? this is just as dumb as asking why vegans won't eat eggs or dairy

>>7363895
At least the fish lives in complete freedom until right before it dies. It's not like slaughter of land-walkers is nice either, often it's much more horrific.

>>7364224
I know lots of people who get their own eggs and milk.

Is it stupid just because you don't do it?

I've mentioned in other posts if you actually could take the time to read that obviously it's not practical for everyone.

But for a huge portion of the population it is

Why is asking why someone is a vegan dumb?

>>7364218
>Better yet, eat shellfish. They don't even have brains and yet are a superior source of animal nutrients

Good point. They also taste pretty good

>moral stance

this argument is pretty flacid desu

you not eating meat does not mean it will stop being mass produced, just a 0.000001% more waste, which honestly still hasn't made much of a difference in how it is produced.

passive boycotting doesn't really do all that much if youre 1% of the population :'/( enjoy your hugbox and the lack of succulent meat filling your mouth. join green peace or something, at least they actually have accomplished something.

>>7364226
Pro-tip, seafood farming is far worse than land farming.
Most land farms try to not spray their cess all over the surrounding area. Farm raised fish have their plague and parasite filled waste flowing into ocean which proves detrimental to the native life.

>>7364241
I know but people like to feel important

Fucking go liberate a farm hippy faggots, don't just stand there and let them get slaughtered

Smh to be honest family

It can be argued that milk is inhumane because constantly putting requirements on cows udders means if we ever disappear, a lot of cows are going to have very painful swollen breasts.

That said, it's kinda a moot point because cows as they are today wouldn't exist without humanity.

As for eggs, there's a legend that chickens were a gift from the gods, the egg yolk resembling the sun and all.

>>7364256
>mfw this thread tolerates the hugbox
cmon kiddos grow up. ive been there done that when i was 15, then i realized nothing would really change and i was just a cuck missing out on all that meat

>>7364246
fish and shrimp can be nasty but afaik shellfish (oyster scallop etc) farming is low impact and barely even "farming", you don't have to feed them or anything.

>>7364257
>cows as they are today wouldn't exist without humanity.
that's just more reason to stop perpetuating it. we're altering animals' bodies to the point that even being alive is painful for them.

I will never EVER validate veganism, because I truly believe it's a mental illness and those people need psych evaluations.
However, I'll tell you that the best thing I ever did for myself was when I switched to a low fat diet and only ate fish, turkey, chicken, seafood, vegetables, fruits, and whole grains. I lost 40 lbs, felt great, looked great, had perfect skin, great hair, etc.
Then, I fell off the good eating wagon a few weeks ago, and I'm still paying for it. Ugh. But, (because I don't want to waste money or the food I bought) I'm cooking/eating all the shit tier foods I bought in the past month and getting back on the right path. I'd go completely pescetarian if I didn't also have a family to feed, and while they all love fish, they also want at least some poultry as well.

>>7363765
>What's wrong with eating eggs and milk?
Treatment of the animals is the general objection. It can be done relatively humanely, but some people are against any kind of animal farming like that. And most places that treat chickens relatively humanely (organic free range grass fed blah blah blah) still kill male chicks, and kill hens when they hit menopause about a third of the way through their lifespan.

Also, you are probably using "veganism" to refer to vegan diets; veganism as a whole also eschews animal-derived products like leather, down pillows, etc.

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>>7364101
>get a load of this idiot

How can you even look at yourself in the mirror without laughing or crying or both?

>>7363890
If you think crop growing isn't related to the livestock industries, I feel sorry for you. All your vegan food comes from crops that are also used as animal fodder.

>>7364232
because you keep asking questions with obvious answers

just because an answer doesn't apply to everyone doesn't mean it's not obvious

and just because you don't like the answer you're getting doesn't mean it's not a valid one

i didn't say it's dumb to ask why someone is vegan, i said it's dumb to ask why eggs and dairy are included in veganism. unless you've been living under a rock, you know that farm conditions for some (but not all) animals are horrific

and as we have BOTH stated, raising your own animals for milk/dairy or going to very humane sources for them are not always feasible.

in addition to that, there are some people who believe that we are not entitled to *anything* created by animals

so

>>7364316
This is the only way to do it fampai. I switched 2 months ago and I feel great.

>>7364339
Wtf are you even talking about?

When did I say I don't like the answers I'm getting?

I posted this thread to generate discussion, which is what's happening...so...

Yeah, obviously I already know farm conditions are shit. That's where the suggestion to raise your own animals comes in (obviously only if it's possible)

Why are you so buttfucked right now?

Do uou feel morally superior for spouting shit that everyone already knows?

>>7364301

Practically everything wouldn't exist without human intervention.

Look what watermelons and bananas were a few hundred years ago.

No fruit, all seeds and rind.

You think cows and chickens would be better off without us? You think cows and chickens have a chance against wolf packs and bears?

No. They don't.

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>>7364101
>die carnist scum
Literally dumber SJWs at this point.

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>>7364101

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>>7363765
As someone who eats a completely plant based diet devoid of any kind of animal produce(for health reasons), but at the same time refuses to identify as a vegan(although I did at one stage), let me clarify:

Veganism is the ethical belief that it is wrong to use or exploit animals in any way. Vegans believe animals should have the same rights that humans have. It's dumb as shit and impractical, but that is what they believe.

So using and keeping animal for their eggs, milk, wool or whatever is exploiting them and an infringement on their rights, according to vegans.

If you happen to stumble across a fresh carcass that died for other reasons(fell off a cliff or something), some vegans actually would be ok with you eating that. But you have to keep a chicken caged and steal its eggs, so that is not ok.

>>7364316
I would agree that veganism is flawed ideology when it comes to health, but that is because veganism only tells you what _not to_ eat, but not what _to_ eat. A diet based on beer and potato chips is technically vegan, but unhealthy as fuck. A scientifically informed whole plant based diet, like the one I follow, is arguably the healthiest kind of diet, but is also technically vegan.

Vegans are more concerned with morals than health. The fact that the healthiest diet can be called vegan is more of a coincidence than anything else.

>>7364330
This is wrong.

Only 36% of the calories produces goes to animal feed, but this is restricted to only a handful of crops that produce calories cheaply, like soy and grains. If you compare the type of crop grown, >99% of the kinds of crops are not grown for the purpose of feeding livestock, as those crops are either too expensive or too impractical, usually both.

So no, only a fraction(albeit a large one) of the "vegan food" grown end up as animal fodder.

>>7364970
Nice post, although I would argue that veganism as a diet and the associated ethical philosophy behind it are not entirely inseparable.

>>7364970
do you have any sources for the % of calories going to animal feed please? no trying to refute your point just want to look at it.

>>7363817
Just buy milk and eggs that aren't treated that way then. I don't know where you live but it's possible here

>>7364262
You're still a cuck, cuck. Now you're just cucked by Maddox

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>>7365042
That is true. Veganism was initially defined within the context of food, the term itself is derived from vegetable, which is a class of food. It has since evolved into a different movement where the focus isn't on diet alone.

You don't need to refer to food or diet to define vegan beliefs.

Technically, we can still live a world where no one consumes animal based foods, but would still violate vegan principles, such as using animals for leather.

That is to say, the dietary aspect of veganism isn't the key definitional point, but rather that the dietary philosophy is derived from the core values of veganism.

The derived dietary prescription of veganism is very simple though: don't eat food that requires the exploitation of animals.

Vegans aren't doing what they are doing because they love eating plants specifically, they just hate eating animals.

>>7365056
I got that specific figure from this article: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/9/29/1240661/-Feed-an-extra-4-billion-Grow-crops-for-humans-not-animals

There are different figures though, I used that one since it takes into account the entire produce of the planet, while others tend to focus on just a specific country, region or crop.

Just google "what percentage of crops are used to feed livestock" if you want to know more.

>>7365080
You're the worst kind of shit-cunt really.

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>>7365087
Just to add to my reply to >>7365042

The term vegan is a source of confusion though, it can sometimes be used to refer to incompatible things.

For example, someone could be a "dietary vegan" or an ""environmental vegan". They follow plant based diets, but not necessarily for ethical reasons. In these cases the term vegan has become loaded and is actually the wrong one to use as it doesn't really have anything to do with the ethical beliefs of vegans.

Vegans love to hijack anything that puts veganism is a more favourable light as well. At first, there was no connection between health and veganism, the "health benefits" was only a later discovery that vegans latched on to, and even then, being vegan doesn't guarantee health as I pointed out earlier. It's just that the standard modern diet is so crap that even a deficient vegan diet(typically in vitamin B12 and D) and can show improvements in the short to mid term, before the deficiencies(which are easy to deal with) manifest symptoms. Or when they feed their infants extreme diets and then the kid dies.

Most vegans you encounter though aren't aware of the history of the movement or the current state of it, or how it relates to health, and typically they are the annoying sjw activist types that yell "Meat is murder!" and will let you know about their moral superiority.

You know, the ones you just want to smack in the face with a raw piece meat.

>>7363890
>I'm sure it's the same for chickens and eggs
It is, as an addition, most abattoirs wont take 'spent' hens so they tend to have to be in transport to slaughter for much longer which is the single most stressful part of any farmed animals life

>if you're a vegan/vegetarian, why?

Three main reasons

1. Animal agriculture is harming the planet in a number of ways and is far less sustainable than a plant-based diet. Just think of the amount of food an animal needs to consume before it becomes food for us. That is a tremendous waste of food that can go to feeding people at a low cost, rather than feeding cows.

2. I'm Buddhist. And while is not a religious requirement, it is certainly a benefit if we can turn away from promoting harm to other living beings.

3. It's simply much healthier to not eat meat. The benefits are endless from reduction in cancer rates to inflammation.

>What's wrong with eating eggs and milk?

what >>7363817 said

>How do you even get protein if you don't?

Tofu, nuts, beans

>>7364970


>The fact that the healthiest diet can be called vegan is more of a coincidence than anything else.

No it's really not. Meat is unhealthy in so many ways, as are animal byproducts.

>>7364218
Kek. You have no clue how the beef industry works. The male calves from dairy cattle are sold cheap, bottle fed, sent to feed lots, brought to market weight and then sold for ground beef and lower end products. Veal is a minuscule amount of the beef industry.

>>7363902
the chickens you buy are result of culled male chicks

>>7363895
When I catch a fish I quickly stick a thin knife into the neck, just behind the head. They die almost immediately. It also seems to keep the meat fresher, maybe beacause it stops the production of stress hormones or something idk.

I've stopped buying meat completely. I only grab meat when dumpstring, because it would never ens up on anyones plate anyways.

>>7363817
This.

The idea of being vegan has nothing to do with man's relationship to the natural world and everything to do with man's relationship to the industrialized world. It's not that animals and animal products are bad to eat; it's that the ethics get murky when these products are made widely available in an industrialized society. If you have your own farm where you raise your own animals and maybe round things out with some hunting and fishing it's hard to make a case for veganism. If all your animal products come from the supermarket and fast food joints veganism starts to make more sense. Because not only is the quality of those animal products different, but the ethics of how they're brought to market is harder to justify.

tl;dr Veganism only makes sense in an industrialized society.

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>>7363765
Saying 'DUDE WEED' doesn't make you any less LMAO WEED DUDE XD

>>7368820
overfishing is killing the ecosystem though

>>7368908
Good.

>>7368865
That's only partially true. While this debatably addresses the ethical concern, plant based diets are still much healthier as well as requiring far fewer resources to maintain, thereby reducing environmental impact.

>>7369119
>plant based diets are still much healthier as well
The jury is still out on that, but many people with cholesterol issues can control them with a mostly plant based diet. I'm one of them.

But you're right about environmental impact. A plant based diet is generally less resource intensive than one centered around industrially farmed animal products.