Can my American /biz/ please explain how and why this is allowed to go on?
At which point did the US economy decide it's OK to allow the private sector to control the prices of life-saving medication, and at the same time prohibit the import of the same medication from abroad?
Has the line between government and business completely disappeared over there?
I know this is somewhere between /biz/ and /pol/ but we all know /pol/ is a bunch of edgy 14 year olds so I'm asking you, as I'm genuinely interested.
I didn't realize there was any debate. European governments have bargained the price of drugs DOWN -- it is absolutely not the other way around.
The only reason drug companies were willing to accept that bargaining is because there is still one country in the world in which they can recoup their costs: the United States.
In the event that the US attempts to match prices with a country like the Netherlands, most drug manufacturers will simply disappear, and the ones that remain will focus on cough drops.
>The only reason drug companies were willing to accept that bargaining is because there is still one country in the world in which they can recoup their costs: the United States.
Let me fix that for you:
There is exactly one country in the Western world where a private individual with enough capital can buy a patent for a drug and then literally pay the government to allow him to make 1000% margins off the ill citizens of said country.
In Europe, pharma companies still make healthy profits, but there is only one country where the government allows its sick people to be systematically bankrupted by international conglomerates in return for whatever forms of funding and influence they get in return.
>I didn't realize there was any debate
No, there is no debate that you live in a Frankenstein system that merged big business with government, the only question I had was how that was allowed to happen and why the American people seem to literally hate their own health.
>It's sad that vital products and services are so likely to disappear if worthless leaches like day traders and executives can't get rich by doing fuck all.
That's not true. Just make all non-IPO equity transactions taxed at 5% the price for the purchaser.
Because now we all have (or as supposed to have) health insurance. And they foot most of the bill.
This is strictly addressing your topic of drugs. The cost of health insurance and its requirement are a different topic.
I don't like that he packaged day traders with executives. Obviously most executives play an important role.
I will stick to day traders when I say that there's an entire class of people who produce nothing of value, while skimming off of businesses and private citizens alike.
This is not capitalism, it is a corruption of it, and it should at the very least be taxed to an extent that makes it an unsustainable primary source of income.
>This is not capitalism, it is a corruption of it, and it should at the very least be taxed to an extent that makes it an unsustainable primary source of income.
Please tell me you see the hypocrisy of your post.
> It’s easier for small groups to form, and the benefits they can each get from redistributing wealth (through political action) to their own small group is greater than the benefit that each member of a larger group would get from redistributing the same amount of wealth. Basically, interest groups are more likely to represent a relatively small group of farmers, industries, etc., rather than large dispersed groups like consumers, the poor, etc.
Because we have health insurance my poor friend. Our out of pocket cost for drugs is not even close to the figures listed.
And before you whine about whatever our uninsured population is that's why obongo based the affordable care act.
It sounds like you want an excuse to be poor and then bitch and moan that the world owes you things... Typical euroshit. Get a job and contribute or fuck off. That is the American way.
>ad hominem attacks instead of an actual rebuttal
If you knew anything about how health care in America works instead of just looking at the market price of a drug, you'd understand why Americans are so Apathetic to the situation.
Better to pay for high-quality service than bleed to death waiting in line in le "socialist paradise".
I would know. I live in Canada, sure we have """"free"""" healthcare. But good luck waiting in line if you're not about to die. 5+ hours in Emergency Room, up to a year(and sometimes more) waits for Surgeries.
Ok. The same thing would still happen. Canada's drugs are more expensive than Europe because their government isn't quite as shitty (yet). They still benefit greatly from companies being able to offload costs onto the US. In a global economy, capitalists countries get cucked by socialist ones in ways like this. However, capitalist countries will always be wealthier nonetheless, so I guess "cucked" is relative.
We have this thing called "health insurance" in the US that Obama has made sure everyone in the country is allowed to have. Being "bankrupt" by paying for bills that your insurance company actually pays for is a meme in post-Obamacare America.
Nonetheless, you are right: companies here have the freedom to charge whatever they want -- and they charge exactly what it takes to recoup losses abroad. Your comical assertion that they make "healthy" "profits" is lacking in objectivity or evidence.
You're doing it wrong, then. My country has had free healthcare since forever and it works just fine, there's some waiting in emergency rooms on busy nights but I'd rather wait for an hour than shell out $100k to get minor surgery.
Also, the wait for major surgery is never more than a few weeks.
And you know what the best thing is? You always have the option to pay a large sum of money and go to a private hospital to get the same treatment Americans are forced into paying for.
So it actually is a "socialist paradise" - those who can afford premium healthcare can pay for it, and those who can't get cared for, for free.
>inb4 insurance covers everything magically
14% of Americans are uninsured and a lot of those who are insured still have health costs which force them into debt. The fact you were born into some suburban middle class home doesn't mean you get to speak for the increasingly numerous lower classes.
>You're doing it wrong, then. My country has had free healthcare since forever and it works just fine, there's some waiting in emergency rooms on busy nights but I'd rather wait for an hour than shell out $100k to get minor surgery.
Most Americans have health insurance which covers most if not all of it. Paying cash out of hand is also much much cheaper. Don't believe sensationalist media.
>Also, the wait for major surgery is never more than a few weeks.
In Canada it's literally up to a year if not more. Specialist appointments can be up to 6 months(at least in my province).
>And you know what the best thing is? You always have the option to pay a large sum of money and go to a private hospital to get the same treatment Americans are forced into paying for.
We don't have that here. LIterally your only option other than wait in line is to fly to another country and do it there, paying cash.
>14% of Americans are uninsured and a lot of those who are insured still have health costs which force them into debt
False. If you ask to pay in cash they immediately chop the price.
>Ask for any discounts for paying in cash instead of insurance
>Say you'll call them back to discuss it
>Call next day
>another 25% off
>Ask if there's a discount for paying it all at once
>another 25% off
>Nonetheless, you are right: companies here have the freedom to charge whatever they want -- and they charge exactly what it takes to recoup losses abroad. Your comical assertion that they make "healthy" "profits" is lacking in objectivity or evidence.
This is frankly ridiculous.
You do realize there are plenty of successful pharmaceutical companies that never even enter the American market in a big way, but focus on Europe, or specific European regions? And that these companies still manage to come out with a profit steadily for years or decades without pushing exuberant prices on Americans?
>Canada's drugs are more expensive than Europe because their government isn't quite as shitty
>the quality of a government is measured by how willing it is to rob its dying citizens in return for campaign donations
top kek, enjoy your freedom to be robbed legally.
The fact that you haven't posted your country yet means that you know that the US blows it out of the water in every metric except "LE EBIK HEALTHCARE COSTS", so how about you fuck off now.
It's not possible to be "successful" without entering the American market unless you are literally Chinese.
As stated, America subsidizes what would otherwise be a deeply impoverished Europe. And as our budget deficit grows, and the euro falls, I have a feeling the good times are about to come to a crushing end for yuropoors.
I love how he says "compare it to Canada to stay on the same scale" while Canada's healthcare is beyond fucked.
I fucking live in Canada man. It takes me 5+ months wait to see a specialist, at least 5 hours in the ER(depending on time of day), over several months to get an MRI, etc.
No - this is not from me "reading about it online" like you have, no this is not about "hearing from some poster on 4chan", this is from my own personal experience and experience of family and relatives.
It sucks, DICK. I don't give a shit that it's "le freee!!!" - it costs the average family thousands of dollars a year in taxes, and you barely even get to use it.
Also the fact that it's free makes doctors/nurses/other medicial staff not give a shit about hurrying up because they're getting paid anyway rather than based on merit if we had a private system.
>"Oh I have to look at these results of some tests? ah fuck it i'll get to it later, who cares? It's not like I can be fired or get in trouble!"
>UK's entire healthcare costs are over $200billion/year
>NHS is literally crumbling from lack of funding
>Bernie Sanders thinks they can afford this for the US which has 5x the population
>You do realize there are plenty of successful pharmaceutical companies that never even enter the American market in a big way,
What? Name them.
1. The FDA regulations makes in incredibly difficult to put a new drug on the market, giving anyone who passes Trial 1&2 an effective monopoly
2. US Pharma spends an exorbitant amount on R&D, which is essentially subsidized by the US.
If Pharma is forced to lower US drug prices, without a relaxation on regulation, either 1 of 2 things will happen
1.) US and non-US prices will then reach an equlibirium (down in the US, up Intl)
2.) Companies will focus less on R&D and be less risky in the drugs they pursue.
The largest Pharma companies, like Glaxo, Sanofi, AstraZeneca, and Novartis are LITERALLY European companies who make the bulk of their revenue from the US.
Europe's largest Pharma companies literally subsidize their at home sales with US sales.
Thank you for the information. This is what I was looking for. It's just that the other guy above got me riled up with his Bill O'Reilly level of argument.
>What? Name them.
Most European countries will have old pharma companies which don't try to compete with the big boys in terms of R&D and work with a profit steadily. Even the likes of Serbia and Ukraine have them. Off the top of my head, Saneca, Hemofarm, S Pharma.
>not forcing US and non-US prices into an equilibrium
Why would you not want to force that? Clearly beneficial for the US citizen.
The only reason half the life saving medication that exists today was invented was because there was incredible incentive to do so. The US is the worlds greatest producer when it comes to the invention of new products. Take away the incentive, take away the production. Say goodbye to the cure for cancer/AIDS.
You don't see the discrepancy between speaking about true capitalism and wanting a certain category like day traders to be taxed into the ground.
Personally, I don't like traders myself, for the same reasons you don't like them, but taxing them is not the solution.
>tfw born too late too exploit global markets during the 80s
>born too soon to explore space and be a space pirate
>born just in time for socialists to save me from the big guys and make sub 100k my entire life
Fair enough, I came up with the "solution" on the spot but my point was that a line can be drawn between business that provides some sort of value, be it a product, a service, or security etc, and then there is pure opportunism.
What do you think socialism is? I get paid by the hour and the only upper limit is what the market is willing to pay.
We have a 'private healthcare system' where 60% of all costs are paid by the government and the remaining 40% are paid by large insurers.
The result of this is that there are two systems for setting the price of drugs and medical treatment: In the first, the government has a highly rigid and easily exploitable system where they essentially let hospitals and drug companies tell them how much something costs. In the second, the insurers, which are smarter and have more room to act, call out the hospitals and drug companies on their bullshit and get massive discounts.
Our high health care costs, which are twice as much as they are anywhere else in the developed world, are primarily a result of hospitals and drug companies bilking the shit out of Medicare and Medicaid. Nobody actually pays the prices you see there for that medication, except for the government. Nothing will ever be done to fix this because the Republican base is all old farts on Medicare who would lynch their congressman at the first sign of entitlement reform, while the Medical industry makes a fuckload of money off of this and doesn't want the tap to be turned off.
Thanks, that makes sense.
>Nothing will ever be done to fix this because the Republican base is all old farts on Medicare
Not sure I get this. Democrats are in power and might continue to be, so why would they care? Or is this one of those things that has to go through 3 levels of government to get fixed?
Republicans control Congress, and any significant piece of legislation now requires 60 out of 100 votes in the Senate to pass anyways thanks to procedural loopholes, which is why we got half-assed Obamacare instead of straight-up single payer in 2009 when the Democrats had control of both houses.
Anyways, there's three directions you could go in to fix the problem. The first is to shrink the size of Medicare/Medicaid, which is something that the Republicans often try to do while grandstanding about 'muh heavily subsidized free markets' but can't because the Democrats and their own base don't want it (the Republicans lost Florida in the 2012 election primarily because their VP candidate had pushed to turn Medicare into a voucher system). The second is to go in the opposite direction and go towards complete socialization, but the Republicans don't want that either and would fight against it every step of the way. The third would be a basic reform of how the government allows drugs and care to be priced, but that's not a 'sexy issue', which means that the medical companies who profit from the current arrangement can go in and buy votes (from both parties) through lobbying without the public noticing.
I also believe many Democrats have a rooting interest in keeping the welfare system the same as it currently is, with middle class taxpayers bearing much of the burden of funding these programs while receiving nothing in return, in order to drive more of the population into poverty and thus garner their votes.
Wow, thanks for that. I guess that's a big drawback of the two party system, there's nowhere to look for a solution beyond the two established party infrastructures, and they're content with the status quo as long as people don't make too much of a fuss about it.
>The third would be a basic reform of how the government allows drugs and care to be priced
This does seem like a simple way to at least alleviate the problem, but I suppose lobbying is too strong and the average person is too disinterested.
"Every American is a future millionaire."
Remember this fact when you are unable to comprehend our actions. We want to make sure nobody gets a piece of a pie that we do not yet posses, even if we stand to benefit from sharing that pie now.
What your dumb commie ass doesn't understand is that the pie you're talking about is not yours to share, for the very simple reason that you didn't work for it. Just because the gov passes laws that say it's perfectly legal to steal/tax another person's wealth doesn't make it morally right. If Lateesha wants to raise her 12 nigglets I suggest she moves her fat negro ass from the couch and get a fucking job.
US healthcare is expensive because users don't actually see it costs by and large and thus they don't really care about its full price tag. For better or for worse (for worse, but that's not important right now) Americans have health insurance which generally absorbs nearly all the cost of medical expenses. They pay for the inflated cost collectively through their premiums, but not individually, meaning they have little to no incentive to choose cheaper healthcare options (such as forgoing expensive medicines or care) and now thanks to Obamacare they can't even choose cheaper insurance that covers less (the cheapest legal insurance under Obamacare is quite staggeringly expensive).
Drug companies have no incentive to keep prices down because they have patents on the drugs and demand is generally inelastic (if someone can die or pay infinity dollars for a drug they often choose to pay). For drugs whose patents have expired the prices are often quite cheap as market competition drives them to affordability.
Hospitals and other medical providers have no incentive to keep prices down because customers don't really care which one they go to, the out of pocket expense is always the same. They just choose the nicest one or the closest one. Unlike countries with more socialist medicine, providers DO want to work quickly and at a high quality because the more people they process the more payments they can charge. They don't operate on a flat government provided budget regardless of how many people they help.
It's a mess of skewed incentives that provides a very inefficient system.
Lateesha already does that. Miguel takes his toddler with a cold to the emergency room and the government pays it with your taxes.
Subsidizing our collective wellbeing instead of making it a lottery of indebtedness to the hospitals only makes sense.
But again with the 'stealing.' You want to make sure nobody steals your inevitable millions. How many dozens of people own most of the wealth again? I'm sure there are some millions laying about, waiting for you. Only THEN will you deserve healthcare!
>Just because the gov passes laws that say it's perfectly legal to steal/tax another person's wealth doesn't make it morally right. If Lateesha wants to raise her 12 nigglets I suggest she moves her fat negro ass from the couch and get a fucking job.
And if you don't like the laws your democratically elected government passes, you're welcome to get off your ass and move to some place with no institutionalized empathy. I hear Zaire has a system you would greatly enjoy. You're all about survival of the fittest, right? Right?
>Only THEN will you deserve healthcare!
I'm in Canada senpai, and imo healthcare is a human right. However... on your point below:
>How many dozens of people own most of the wealth again?
The better thing you should ask is "how many dozens of people are capable of generating wealth?". Sure, there are monopolies, inherited wealth, all kids of shit... however why would you ever want to take away a persons motivation to make money by distributing it away? We wouldn't even have personal computers since the silicon chip wouldnt be invented, along with countless other things.
Closed club of special friends guarded by HR? Yeah, totally easy to get a crack at it.
Man, you must be one of those dummies who think your handful of shares out of a billion means you have more than token input in a corporation's direction.
>You want to make sure nobody steals your inevitable million
This is about basic decency, it has nothing to do with my desired future. You see, unlike you I don't think it's okay to hate on somebody just because he's more successful than me. I also don't think it's okay for people to receive something they didn't earn, I don't give you shit that you NEED it, we all need something. There's nothing wrong with incompetent people dying, its how it's supposed to be.
And no, for your information Lateesha isn't working, because if she did she wouldn't have time blocking traffic holding stupid signs during BLM protests. And fuck Miguel, if he doesn't like capitalism he can fuck off back across the border, preferably to Cuba if he likes socialism and free healthcare so much.
Those wouldn't exist w/o the private sector.
Also 3 of those have generics that are cheap as fuck, and nexium is now OTC for like $20/mo.
Drug companies pour in shit loads of money researching new drugs, and get 20 years before their patents expire to make as much profit as possible before anyone that wants to can make generics.
The nazis were democratically elected to, so were the soviets and the red Chinese, and between them they butchered hundreds of millions and enslaved billions more. All the death camps were perfectly legal, in accordance with their laws at that time. Same thing goes for slavery during the colonial age. But I guess for whores like you immoral laws are perfectly okay as long as they suit your needs.
>14% of Americans are uninsured and a lot of those who are insured still have health costs which force them into debt.
The only reason you go into debt for health care cost is if you're too stupid to fill out the forms needed to discharge the bill. These people are almost as stupid as those who go hungry in america.
this is happening everywhere and not just in the US
government decides to privatize services in order to encourage competition, now this is a double edged sword because on paper small companies are able to compete but they aren't ridden of taxes like the big companies and don't have enough funding to push their products to retail
there is also another problem, the government sets a bid on if company A or company B gets the rights for natural resources or building roads or whatever. but the only invites company A to the bid because they are friends. this is called "Crony capitalism" and its a major problem that will cause even more problems down the line because there is less regulation and limit on what a big company can do
Bull fucking shit. Had my first child last year and had to pick up almost $4k of the cost after fighting the insurance company to pay more. That's for a perfectly normal birth. If she had been a problem I doubt I could have afforded it and that has nothing to do with insurance.
But please tell me how you know everything, smartass. Or how I should have been paying even higher rates for more coverage when I was already strapped for money. My fault, right? Fuck me for being covered at all.
Piece of shit.
If you don't want to pay $4k then have a natural birth at your house instead of getting premium care at a hospital. Either that or pay the extra money in premiums to have more coverage? Or if you're a poor fuck apply for the government programs that flip the health bills for poor fucks? There is so many options available to you. Why is it someone else's fault that you are either stupid or poor?
>Live in the greatest capitalist nation in history
>4k is a problem
Holy shit /biz/, this is absolutely pathetic.
Also congrats on the baby, hope they're healthy and live a great life.
>I don't understand America why are they so awesome i so jeaaaaallllouuuussss desu senpai pls fuck me hard in the ass
America is the best country in the world because we figured out the best balance between individual rights and unified morality.
Whatever drugs you faggots are on, you can bet with 60% accuracy that they were, in-part, developed, tested, or approved for human-consumption in the US of A-fuckin-murica.
If the U.S. "caught up with the rest of the world" or "started living in CURRENT YEAR", you, your dying mom, and your dying dog, would be A++++ 100% 100% 100% fucked in the ass.
As a relief from my shitposting, here are my sources u fuking pile of faggot shit:
We could still save money by going universal and just not cutting grants for medicine. Its not an all or nothing "libtard free market or anarcho communism" thing, regardless of what the media hype would have you believe
dude all you had to google is
"how many pharmaceuticals are invented in america"
we barely top the list and only because our whorish finance driven system buys out other countries drug makers once they have something near market viability so that they can jack up the price , germany and france together make 10% more than us with lower populations (80 million and 60 million) and both having universal coverage
lol mate you found me out fuck you.
But I did read the articles you fag and yet you still try to push your impish half-truths on me.
mfw 32% is barely
>our whore economy buys out talent and competiton!
no shit dude its called free market, wear no underwear for a day and you'll see how it feels
>germany and france make 10% more than us with lower populations
more what? more money? more drugs? both of these are false. They don't make money by buying the drugs for their couchfags, and they don't make more drugs by having too much business regulation, and not enough actual drug/health regulation
>tfw work in healthcare industry
>tfw enrolled in company health plan
>tfw I can get prescriptions for any drug at like 60-80% discounts
>tfw I'm too healthy to need to use any medication
The line between government and business hasn't disappeared but it's certainly blurred. Although that's nothing new here.
No, our system isn't perfect but the alternatives in my opinion aren't much of an improvement. If that translates to 'you hate yourselves' than so be it, that's why I hate myself.
I'd much rather pay through the nose for medication and health care to have access to some of the best healthcare services in the world vs the approaches some other countries have taken.
The Affordable Care Act is far enough.
With two exceptions.
- Some reasonable reform on the patent expiration time frame (20 years I think) before generics can be released.
-Outlawing direct marketing by pharmaceutical companies to consumers all together. Some of the ads on television are cringe-worthy. They buy billboard ads on the side of freeways. Most magazines have at least 5-6 full page ads in them. It's ridiculously out of control like cigarette advertising used to be.
>I know this is somewhere between /biz/ and /pol/ but we all know /pol/ is a bunch of edgy 14 year olds so I'm asking you, as I'm genuinely interested.
/biz/ is /pol/ without the overt racism. The racism is hidden here, but ask the right or wrong questions and people will show you or call you a nigger.