why would anyone want to program for money?
you spend all that time learning only to realize what you learned is outdated because everything in the industry keeps changing.
Everything is getting open sourced, people only want free software nowadays, even if you try the sell the software it gets pirated.
It's also back breaking work, its stressful and requires constant thinking, but you never get awarded for your efforts.
How is someone in their 40's or 50's supposed to keep their programming career? I highy doubt people at that age can catch up with the latest tech and programming tools. Its a dead end job that needs to be avoided at all costs, yet you have all these shills saying that programming gets you payed well, and that everyone should be programmers. Its fucking ludricous and out of touch with reality.
>Everything in the industry keeps changing
As much as you may think the industry is changing, it's really not. Of course there are companies in silicon valley filled to the brim with young minds, but the majority of companies have experienced, proven programmers.
C, C++, Assembly, Java, Python, Matlab, PHP, and Ruby have all been around for more than 20 years. Programming really isn't that hard. I got hired as a software intern last summer after taking a single PHP code academy class for free. I learned more on the job than I did in 10 years of school.
It's ok to not like programming, but it's invaluable on a resume because it shows that you understand process, and that you have patience, creativity, logic, and wits.
In places outside the US it seems programming = minimum wage contract work yet in the US it is seen as a highly valued skill.
So it must be a bubble of some kind, because it doesn't make sense that programming is so highly valued.
From the 10 years of experience I've had with programming I know that programming itself is pretty much useless alone and can't be transferred to any other profession.
All Programmers really do is program according to a predetermined plan made by an architect so actually the programmer doesn't need to be very skilled in the first place, I know that in asia they hire students with absolutely no programming experience and train them for half a year. That is all that is really needed to get them to a competitve level, but in america and the west they put you through college and make a big deal out of it.
but how? How do you compete when there are so many companies with larger teams that can develop software much faster than you could alone?
>why do they pay so little outside the US?!?!
>'but in america and the west they put you through college and make a big deal out of it.'
Wow it's almost like there's some correlation going on there
Allow me to elaborate.
Lets say you're an ebay or an amazon seller. You want to know how much your competitors are making. Neither sites give you that information. If you could develop software that can accurately approximate the sales, people will give you big bucks for it (already been done, by one guy).
No company, no real company worth working for, outsources their programing to foreign countries. The code you get back harkens back to the WYSIWYG webpage editor days of Dreamweaver circa 2001. There are companies out there that specialize in taking the hacked together code and turn it into something usable and reliable... they charge anywhere from 200-400% what it would have cost to just have the code written in the US to begin with.
India, Pakistan, or lord help you, Russia, are only acceptable for level 1 help desk support, and even then, you will end up hiring a kid with an A+ cert to bring it inhouse.
Eastern Europe actually has some of the best programmers in the world. Who often go under paid and unrecognized.
A single Russian guy wrote Space Engine by himself... And many many other contributions from Russians. Literally look at any "credits" page of opensource projects and other big names. Plenty of them are Russian.
Russia and China is rock solid, I actually outsourced some stuff there through UpWork. India and Pakistan has poo tier code.
Again, the only reason to develop software is to make your own, sell it and keep the lions share. If you develop for someone else anywhere in Canada/US/Western Europe more likely than not you'll eventually be fucked by global competition.
And how you propose that?
Software made by pros is getting cracked and released for free. You wouldn't be able to compete desu.
Best chance is to sell it to someone else(ie a company or individual).
I wouldn't say it's a particularly valued skill. Plenty of companies are satisfied by Indian garbage that costs a fortune in both development costs and lost profits. That's because management bears neither cost.
Frankly, if you're any good, you need a side project to keep from being burned out. Because spending all day coping with, but not being allowed to fix, mountains of ridiculous Indian bugs is soul crushing.
Already succeeded you lazy nig. Offering it as a service for monthly subscription, and have a decent amount of subscribers. Stop looking for excuses. Find something that people with money would pay for and code it. Then put it on the web with a monthly access model.
>Software made by pros is getting cracked
And here we have an all too common mindset, the belief that other people are smarter and therefore you have no chance. Similar to the "many eyes" saying in open source that makes the ridiculous assumption that those eyes aren't blind. Thus we have and industry if non programming "programmers," or as I like to call them, "framework cobblers."
It's not an "excuse". It's a realistic outlook.
There are entire teams of experienced programmers making very little or even working for free. To compete against them alone (And get favorable results) with under 3 years solid experience(at least) is simply not going to be possible.
Everything has been done a hundred times over, likely in a much more efficient manner than you could possibly come up with without being exceptionally creative and skilled.
This assuming you mean a competitive product of course. There is plenty of shit software sold for highly overvalued amounts due to marketing and false promises.
You can find great individuals in any country or culture. Some of the most beautiful code ive ever seen was done by a Brazilian guy.
However Russia for the most part seems to only have companies run by idiots, con artists, or guys who think yelling at you solves the problem with their work. Russia utterly fails at anything resembling customer service, so when you do get the inevitable 3/4 finished project without a single mark-up in 90,000 lines, you are just fucked
A big reason for keeping your programing in house however is security. There is a rumor that the Juniper code was compromised during a timeframe they were using outsourced programmers in Russia and India. That is an attack on a major security firm who regularly reviews their code. Imagine what is lurking in the outsourced code of healthcare and financial companies.
The money spent on damage control after such an event will make hiring 200 full time US programmers seem incredibly cheap
>Its a dead end job that needs to be avoided at all cost
literally the only job that has guaranteed future and guaranteed need as IT stuff is only going to boom from now on. it's just getting started. everything will be robots, computers etc.
but if you dont like it naturally, you are going to suck at it. simply as that.
But people in their 40's and 50's have several advantages over the younger programmers...
1. Their life is already set, so there's no external confusion
2. They have years of experience dealing with clients and problems
3. They have years of experience knowing how to do common tasks, how to manage their time, etc.
When I was 45, I was charging my main client $12,000 for my services. Custom software and analysis, very narrow niche market
100% agreed about the security.
Btw an interesting read( VERY RELEVANT) is a study done by MIT showing that outsourcing actually costs companies a lot more than they save and also has many other enormous drawbacks like data loss/theft, compromised projects, etc.
I was just saying that Eastern Europeans dominate most fields especially Programming heavily. In fact it's interesting really, they have a strong position in nearly every field and area.
>Only job that has a future
>Panjeets being given H1B's like hotcakes
>Anyone from anywhere can learn to program
>People being pushed into it heavily because "lol it's good money for easy work and it's the future™!"
This sounds a lot like Lawyers quite a few years back.
>I got hired as a software intern last summer after taking a single PHP code academy class for free
this is a lie. look up most programming jobs and they require you to know several languages and have atleast 3+ years experience
They're older so they naturally demand a higher salary - who wants to be paid the same as a 20 year old when you're 45?
But they have little to nothing to show for it. Completely being outdated and outsmarted by interns and freshgrads who don't try to rely on some bullshit "seniority" to get paid.
>3+ years experience
Back in 2000, it was 10 years experience with windows 2000. So, what, 10 years of windows 10 now?
>Everything has been done a hundred times over, likely in a much more efficient manner than you could possibly come up with without being exceptionally creative and skilled.
While I haven't really solved the copying problem yet, I actually would be that more skilled/efficient/creative programmer you're talking about. Or maybe it's that I've worked with too many developers dumber than a box of hammers and have no frame of reference anymore.
Really not trying to brag here but I see alot of perfectly doable stuff passed off as impossible.
"You can't run Office automation from a server!"
Yes you can. You just have to understand the API and not do stuff that triggers dialog prompts. I have four systems in the wild pumping out hundreds of Word and Excel files every day. But you get people that read "not supported" on some MS KB article and immediately throw up their hands and quit.
Speaking of Office, why the hell is damned near every parameter in the Word API a reference instead of a copy? Is there _ever_ a circumstance where you'd want Documents.Open() to alter the file name, readonly flag, or any of the other dozen instantly discarded options passed into it? I get why they can't change the COM headers but why on Earth did MS keep that when they generated the .NET interop classes?