Honestly I understand the misunderstandings/aggravations leveled towards the industry at the moment. There is a lot of deceptive information out there, and honestly I was just coming on here to offer a bit of truth.
Because for one thing, unless you're a millionaire...you need to gain access to OPM (other people's money) in order to make a living in this business. That's the truth, but there is a way to get there without working for a huge bank.
Been researching/studying forex for a while now, when i go live im planning on opening and account with 5-10k is this enough starting capital? I want to be a swing trader, how realistic is 15% return per month?
>>1040042 well, i found the answer to my own question. Forex has a 0 sum. Meaning that the money comes from all those that put money into it. for you to make a profit, other traders must be taking a loss. That's why 98% of people lose money while 2% get really rich with it. you'd be better off selling forex than trading it it seems.
Sorry I didn't respond sooner, was in a meeting. So basically you need to take the time necessary to educate yourself, and then prove yourself in a demo account, then open a small account to further demonstrate your ability.
At that point you have a kind of 'portfolio' as a trader you can shop around to hedge funds, etc...
>>1039965 >Because for one thing, unless you're a millionaire...you need to gain access to OPM (other people's money) in order to make a living in this business.
that isn't true - completely depends on the strategy... there are still 'locals' out there at prop firms trading FX futures etc..and the amount of money (their money) they need to put down for margin can often be just a five figure sum...
obviously their returns are more like 100% a month...
>>1040129 yes you have to pay.. how much you pay depends on software and data you require... there are various ISVs you can use - TT, CQG, Stella etc.. most prop firms/arcades support a bunch of them... renting a co located server obviously adds to the costs too... can vary from a couple of grand a month to say 4-5 or so... I'd rather not get too detailed here re: my specific setup as there aren't too many people out there at prop firms doing exactly what I do.
got there via a grad scheme at a different firm - you start off on a sim for 10 weeks then go live on a 50/50 split... this scales up as you make more money...
there are far fewer opportunities for this these days - if you were interested then Met Traders still offers this sort of training program, very slim chance of success though now... I don't know if they pay a salary when you're training or not... but they don't appear to charge for it (some rather dubious firms are charging for this sort of thing now - fact is it isn't viable to train up people to trade futures any more as the vast majority will lose money - if it were then I'd have been looking to back a couple of grads myself already.)
>>1040140 >fact is it isn't viable to train up people to trade futures any more as the vast majority will lose money
to put this into context back in 2004 there were people sat at some firms trading STIRS, just using simple spread trading strategies... spread moves up a bit, moves down a bit etc.. plenty of them just about broke even and made a living off the exchange rebates for providing liquidity... there were complete numpties able to earn say 15k GBP a month by breaking even or even making a slight loss and getting paid rebates from the exchange... these days these people are very much out of the game thanks to increased automation of trading, and rightly so... just as most of the old floor traders couldn't cope when trading went to the screen...
so the days of getting in a bunch of grads... sacking a few of the complete idiots after a few weeks but then letting the rest go live and seeing them make money and increase in size... those days are long gone
now that I have read up on it I'm pretty sure that Met Traders is a scam. You have to pay £2000 a month for the desk and they admittedly have a very high turn over. They are not interested in creating good traders to trader their money. All they want is to milk dreamers for their desk fee and get a new batch of recruits in when the old ones are burned.
I can't comment on their specific 'course' but if it is anything like the course I did years ago at another firm then TA will form part of it. Thing is these courses (or at least the one I did) don't really teach you to trade. Not everyone uses TA, one of the biggest traders at my previous firm didn't have a chart in sight on his screens, just price ladders...
the course I did years ago involved a bit of self study initially, we were set tasks to find out certain information about different exchanges, using the Eurex, CME etc.. websites... introduced to the order book, how it works, different contract specs... we'd have visits from reps from different exchanges.. they'd give some lectures and leave promotional material (basically we were going to try different markets on the sim and then go live on a particular product or set of products)... in addition tot he catalogues I think I ended up with a CBOT baseball cap and some mapel syrup from the guy from the Montreal exchange. Other external people are the reps from different software companies and reps from technical analysis services... that is where the TA lessons came in - some bloke from futures tech gave a bunch of lessons and we had some other guy from trading central trying to pitch his service... we then had lessons in house about different basic strategies fro trading spreads, trading economic releases (or rather the aftermath of economic releases and in particular how spreads tend to vary immediately after certain figures... how certain figures give indications of other upcoming figures...)... it was useful stuff to know but the actual process of finding edges from which to make money... that is basically left to you...
>>1040164 you're not going to pay them with your own money surely?
desk fees are standard, I had to pay one as a trainee too and a salary and software costs... it is usually a deduction from your account... software costs only kick in when you go live. but yeah you have to cover the desk fee and the cost of your salary from the profits you make before you take your split...
I'm not sure that is a scam per say... if you lose a bunch of money then it is their money you're losing and you won't have paid them anything
>>1040171 the thing is: you don't get access to their money for 8 months or so (I forgot the actual number). so that's around £16k out of the pocket to learn stuff you should already now if you are interested in trading.
>>1040181 you seem a bit confused - how are you going to be out of pocket... if they hire you they're paying you a small salary, it is their money at risk, you don't put up your own money unless you're going to be self funding at one of theses places
I don't have a single edge - there are various things that I've observed (and later tested) that can make money. some things have come via other traders, some things have come via observation initially...
there were some exercises that were useful initially in the first few weeks - for example some index gets updated and published every 15 seconds, there is a futures market for this index, we had an exercise to construct the index ourselves to update in real time from data feeds of the individual stocks... obviously people arb between index futures and their components (if they have the infrastructure) but this was more to see if there were situations where a movement in the real time index we'd constructed could give an edge in scalping the futures... i.e. even say a movement/change in the order book allowing for good queue position etc..... this could be taken further to say monitoring the bigger components of that particular index... (it didn't really result in an edge but it was a useful exercise)
another thing to look at like I mentioned earlier was the movement of different contracts after figures... if you take a look at some spreads for example US 5yr/10 yr and bund/bobl... look at the spread between the two contracts immediately before a big figure NFP etc.. then how they behave during and then afterwards... in certain situations you'll see them trading in a certain range then in all the chaos the spread/the relationship between them moves significantly due to the mass of selling/buying... then as everything calms down it the spread/the relationship slowly returns to the range it was trading in before the figure...
>>1040211 how do you know that the patterns you find are robust? I had a spread widening/tightening pattern last year. Then at one event the tightening did not happen and it wiped out the profits of the previous 15 times.
>>1040220 initially I didn't... it was a very crude approach... now I'm a bit more data driven but there is still a big element of intuition. I wouldn't necessarily compare my approach to the very scientific approach carried out by say quant researchers at a hedge fund... then again there are some relationships patterns that seem to persist only temporarily so in some ways a bit of intuition isn't necessarily a bad thing... then again maybe I'm just kidding myself and have just been lucky all this time
>>1040217 >100% a month huh...show me the way to that pot o' gold.
why? you're apparently successfully trading client funds at a healthy 24% per year...
the sort of things traders at prop firms/arcades do don;t lend themselves to constantly increasing in size or compounding returns... if you trade a 100 lot clip one month you're probably still going to trade a 100 lot clip the next regardless
I'd rather not talk about where I work. Suffice it to say that I employ a very conservative strategy with regard to risk, and I look to the long term. Hence why I started a thread, all the get rich quick schemes ala Forex do a lot of harm.
>>1040252 very few go on to hedge funds... people who are successful for a 2-3 years do seem to pop up at various banks albeit in non trading roles, some of them end up working for software companies, market data vendors, exchanges etc.. - a couple of friends who didn't make it are now basically in glorified sales roles as account managers etc..
there are people like Lawrie Inman though who ended up at a hedge fund - though it is a certain type of fund that doesn't seem to be particularly scientific and wasn't set up by the typical ex banker type either... but rather someone with a background in futures/commodities...
The investment game is not here to entice people who aim to be mediocre or even nominal, it's a game for people who want to be exceptional. It's about what you want and what you can sacrifice.
The guy who wants to spend his spare time drinking beer and going to the club twice a week though...no this is not a likely outcome. Nor is it a likely outcome for someone who already has a wife and children.
But for someone in their 20s with the time/motivation necessary, it is absolutely possible to:
Learn how to trade ---> Do well in a demo account ---> open a micro account ----> trade well for six months ----> approach a prop firm.
>>1040262 >Tudor Capital’s European operation is run out of an ostentatious 25-acre specially-adapted stately home in Epsom, Surrey replete with onsite pool, bar and tennis courts. It’s known for paying its employees well, and this year its 21 members shared a compensation pot of nearly $70m (although the highest paid member received $27.6m of this).
doesn't sound like a bad place to work - though AFAIK they've now moved their offices into West London...
though mostly fixed income futures and oil futures
at the firm I started at there were a couple of big gilt/bund traders and a big oil trader - at one point he was one of the largest independent oil traders trading on the ICE exchange(in terms of volume at least)
I've made sufficient profits myself over the years to not have to worry too much
no that isn't sufficient, I've got plenty of connections right now... my current clearer provides seed capital as did the founder of my previous firm who I'm still in contact with... there are small hedge funds renting office space in the London office where I rent a desk
it is a completely different ball game - a lot of the stuff people left at prop firms do simply isn't scalable in that way...
>>1040328 >>1040321 I also spoke to a recruiter specialising in city jobs. She told me that without a Math PhD from Oxbridge or being a Nobel price level academic there is no chance I will ever get a food in the door of the industry. I gave up trying at that point.
>>1040371 on the other hand if you just want to trade futures or options... it isn't necessarily a requirement none of those options market making firms previously mentioned require one for trading positions
That shift towards recruiting almost exclusively PhDs from top Unis seemed to have happened the last 7-8 years. It coincides with a trend to 100% automation of trading execution and a huge oversupply of PhDs with only few research job in academia.
I think the last remaining (but still dying) area where humans execute trades are OTC derivatives. For now...
so what is the issue, you want to be a researcher but you, by your own admission, are not good enough to do a PhD... probably a good thing you're not a researcher then. The department/supervisor is more important than the university at PhD level.
you don't need a PhD to be a trader... the vast majority of traders don't have PhDs...
there is a subset of people working in research at quant hedge funds and high frequency firms who will generally have PhDs but if you're not capable of getting a PhD which is essentially a big exercise in research then a career in research isn't for you....
there are quant positions in sell side firms that require PhDs to create models
there are researcher positions in quant hedge funds and trading firms that require PhDs to find exploitable patters in financial times series data or look at ways of minimizing the impact of large orders etc..
>>1040476 if you're talking about systematic trading - in some cases there might be no traders only researchers and developers... in others the traders are just concerned with execution and the researchers are the ones who own the pnl...
>>1040500 in systematic trading... well yeah the main value there is from the researchers... execution traders maintain relationships with brokers and need to get orders executed within certain parameters
if you're successful trading for yourself then why are you applying for work?
Yeah sure. OP sitting on his couch at home is the real forex trader but my friend at Barclays is not a trader. He trades with currency rates. And I also know a guy at MS a guy at GS and a girl at JPM and a guy at a hedge fund. /biz is just full of wannabes that think they're pro traders.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org with the post's information.