Communism or capitalism and why

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>>581116272
Communism bc the resources saved by not investing in social infrastructure are instead spent on building police stations, jails, and prisons.

>>581116272
socialism

Capitalism because competition brings out the best in people.
Any pure system is trouble, though.

>>581116272
Resource Based Economy, because watch "Zeitgeist: Addendum" and "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward", my reactionary friend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAdSjlnNbs8

Check out Stefan Molyneux. Also Capitalism because it is not violent. Communism and Socialism are violent economic/political systems.

>>581118001
If you think Capitalism isn't violent you probably haven't been to:
Detroit
Newark
East St. Louis
Compton LA
etc.
etc.

>>581118409
Actually that's failed Socialism big dog. Pouring shit tons of money into a populace to give them a chance at an "equal life". Capitalism in it's real form is not violent. Voluntary transaction of a good/service/currency for a good/service/currency. Not violent at all. Now, if you mix a government in with it, it will have a violent factor to it because government is a system based on violence.

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>>581116973
>best in people.
then i sure hope not to see the worst

>>581118845
No. It's the fallout of an erroneous system used to determine the distribution of wealth. It's the symptom of economic disparity caused by unrestrained capitalism. Which, btw, has now morphed into corporate fascism.

>>581116272
It's both an old school way of looking at it.
Both concepts are necessary in a society.
But both should be fixed a little, in my opinion.

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>>581118845
at the moment you allow tho concentrate wealth someone will have more than he need and someone less that he need.
>capitalism
>non violent
>uneducated pleb with no significant knowledge of the rest of the world

>>581116272
I say as my father said when i asked why he never voted, "well politics havent solved any problem so far"

Actually, the free market rises people out of poverty. Corporatism is something many people mistake for Capitalism. Big companies buy out politicians. Those politicians then make laws benefiting those companies, etc., etc. Corporatism in a nutshell.

>>581119689
I look at it like a family. One or two people work, and their work defines the income. But the kids and old people don't work. They need to be supported by the family. If somebody works harder and better than others, he or she should be rewarded. If somebody is trying hard to find a job, but society has none for him, he should be supported too. It's a mix...

>>581119517
Okay so stealing from someone is okay because they have more money? Stop trying to act like you're better because you don't understand the concept of government, etc. Also, a majority of these super-rich gained there money because of corporatism.

>For wealth-distribution (something that is guaranteed to fail)
>Wealth-distribution is theft
>Theft is violent

>>581119159
>then i sure hope not to see the worst
this anon knows

>>581116973
>Any pure system is trouble, though.
yoou idiot, there has been no pure system, ever, so how would you know
The only pure system ever devised was a work of fiction. In that utopia, the system is not controlled by any higher teir ranking human, it is an ideal, a social communism way of life.

>>581119831
People don't usually get rich in Capitalist societies by hard work. That is a myth used to keep people working.
The wealthy get richer through nepotism and other opportunities which are generally unavailable to poorer social classes.

>>581119831
Without many of the bullshit regulations work would be more readily available.

>>581120334
There are many factors that deal with becoming rich. Capitalism does allow you to build yourself up though.

Anything but capitalism, because America.

communism because people are too dumb to survive on their own

do u think it is save to give samsung/apple ur fingerprint? the phone just scanned my finger 8 times, i feel like a dumbass now cause i mostly try to protect my data..

why not both?

>>581116272
Social democracy ftw

nazism

>>581116546
>implying America has money for its prisons
Nigga have you seen our military budget. We don't build more prisons we just crowd the ones we've got.

>>581120552
Sure I agree that capitalism has it's good points; however, I think that it can also be brutal. I don't agree that wealth should be concentrated in an ultra rich minute portion of the population while the majority suffer from poverty related ailments.
Anecdotally, I'm a Canadian who regularly crosses the border into the US. If I was an ignorant person who never visited the US and believed pop culture I would be convinced that America is where dreams are made; however, because I go there quite regularly I also see that it is a place where nightmares are more common.
Poverty in the US as opposed to Canada (which has a better social infrastructure) is way worse.

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>>581120115
>Okay so stealing from someone is okay
>so stealing from
>stealing
who talked about stealing?
>and their work defines the income
if you dared to open your eyes to see what capitalism has done to other countries, to see that corporations try to make as many as possible without thinking about their employees, cutting salarys so much that you can HARDLY buy the BASICS like FOOD.
so tell me now... WHO IS STEALING FROM WHO?
or are you telling me that whats happening in mexico right now is that some yell fed people start rioting for fun?

>>581121114
Going to a desert across the planet to get shot at by people is likely the only option for some people who are trying to pull ahead financially and make a better life for themselves and their family.
I think in a way that the military is a prison for some people, but yeah, I get what you're saying.

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We've had this argument. Capitalism won.

>>581121119
It's government abuse. Government regulates our money, education, and the economy. You seem to have some reason bro. Check out Stefan Molyneux.

>>581121618
Sure, I will check him out.

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>>581121576
capitalism might have won in a thread but is going down in reality. slowly but steady

>>581121576
>implying north korea is communism
>kill your self

>>581121576
But the happiest nations in the world use the nordic model, which combines a free market with a welfare state.

It doesn't have to be total communism or cut-throat capitalism, there is middle ground.

>>581121263
I've opened my eyes. I tried looking at major economic/political systems and I realized what the problem is. It's the government. Government is a violent, coercive monopoly that controls it's people like they're sheep. They use force (throwing you in a cage, death) if you do not listen to their immoral policies. Capitalism in not violent. Again, it's a voluntary transaction for a good/service/currency for a good/service/ currency.

>>581118001
Stefan Molyneux has less intelligence than my anus

>>581121919

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNtyV0CXfzU

Communism because it works

cap. 'cause everyone loves money.

Anarchism

>implying communism has, or ever will be viable.

communism is only plausible when humans stop breaking laws and are so held down by a moral obligation to improve the community that laws are no longer required. This being the human race, that is impossible.

Therefore, capitalism is the only right answer.

>>581122159
ebin

>>581122029
>>581122112
Stop trolling

foodstamps.

>>581122189
Exactly communism is great on paper but humans are greedy so it will never work

>>581117406
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg&index=2&list=PL3B78F2F515827C0D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w&index=3&list=PL3B78F2F515827C0D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KphWsnhZ4Ag

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>>581121950
wait... you talk about capitalism with no governments????
that's new for me.
explain how why wealth-distribution wont work.

>>581122335
Greed is also why capitalism and any other system will not work. Greed is always at someone's expense

>>581116272
Communism because I'm an edgy 14 year old who wears a Che shirt and wants to fight "the system"

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>>581116272


I love this debate because it always boils down to we can't do better and we can't be better people so we'll settle for capitalism because it works with our inherent greedy nature.

>>581122189
Time will demonstrate that capitalist societies are just as permeated by criminals (if not more so) than communist societies.

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>>581121576

>not-communism 'not working' in north korea

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>>581121950
>I've opened my eyes
>sheep

http://www.theonion.com/articles/marxists-apartment-a-microcosm-of-why-marxism-does,1382/

capitalism ftw

>>581122429
Anarcho-Capitalsim. Some "philosophers" and advocates are Stefan Molyneux, Adam Kokesh, Ayn Rand, Milton Freidman, and more.

>Wealth-distribution is based on theft
>Theft is violent
>A system based on violence can't stand
>Violence breeds more violence

That's one argument. I recommend checking out Stefan. Way more intelligent than and knows his stuff

>>581122503
Thanks for your incredible insight. Perhaps you can sell your shirtless T shirt (the one with the eagle on it) to heat your trailer this winter.

>>581116272

Dictatorship.

The only form of government that would really be great is a dictatorship in which the dictator was a cool guy and also all powerful.

If I was dictator shit would be awesome and if you didn't think so you'd be sent to the mines to rethink your position.

>>581122694
but the concept of capitalism isn't based on the regard of communal interest and the preference thereof over personal interest. Communism is built upon a 'brotherhood of man', which in real terms, is all but impossible. Therefore, since capitalism is built on 'allowing' criminal action, it doesn't self implode when it becomes permeated with criminals, as opposed to communism.

>>581122503

che was a badass though
he could have lived in cuba in relative luxury, hailed as a hero
but he chose to run off and help the cause all around the world

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>>581122939
see you in a future thread after reading some.

>>581122939

ayn rand a shit
you a shit
anarchy capitolistics a shit

>>581123057
That's actually a lie. Che was a fucking pig and a coward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eMLk1nQh5o

>>581123032
I see what your driving at, but Capitalist societies do implode. It's called a revolution. People get tired of watching the upper class have all of the benefits and so they revolt.

>>581123057

but buying a shirt with him on is very capitalist :^)

>>581123024

a communist dictatorship?

ITT: people choosing communism cause they're edgy as fuck and don't know shit about applied communism or even the theory of it

>>581116272
Either way you're all squabbling over a bunch of useless pieces of paper that don't represent anything anymore.

I'll be over here making sure I know how to grow my own food, protect myself and keep out of the way when it all crashes down on you.

>>581123123
Thanks man. It's cool when some guys can acutally talk without calling him a retarded faggot just because you don't agree with them.

Adam Kokesh's new book. It's pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OobMGexM6Ks

>>581123218
Okay wizard, articulate a legitimate debate instead of changing your ID so as not to provide us with context regarding your previous statements.

socialism anyone?

Communism would be awesome in a society were everyone agrees to be communist. Imagine a country all working together to get shit done because they want to better all of society.

Of course you'd have to kick out greedy jewfucks who put themselves above society but you could just let them leave peacefully.

It would likely be a small society but it would be glorious.

ITT: people choosing capitalism cause they're don't know shit about applied capitalism or even the theory of it.

>>581123218
BTW, I'm Canadian, and the best parts of Canada (health care, etc.) are socialist in nature.

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>>581118001
Capitalism is non-violent, are you fucking kidding me? Ignoring all of the proxy wars it starts elsewhere just to maintain itself, it's potential for violence against its own people is latent, and terrifying when activated

>>581123460

What about it? More than likely you live in a socialist country already.

>>581123196
Revolutions are caused when people see that their GOVERNMENTS are reaping all of the benefits while the people are getting shitted on. Some get worse systems. Russia is a good example.

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Capitalism, because awesome!

>>581122939
Anarcho-"capitalists"

>>581123491
see
>>581122813

>>581123196
that's not an implosion though, because the system doesn't change. It's simply the end of one cycle and the start of another. Ironically, it hasn't changed over human history that much. Basically:

1. have capitalist system
2. huge wage gap
3. bad harvest or other catalyst
4. revolution
5.turmoil and instability
6. going back to 'tried and trusted' values
7. works for a while
8.rinse and repeat.

The capitalist system is self-perpetuating as it recognizes humans as individuals, and thus never actually 'implodes', but recycles. Communism, on the other hand, as nice as it sounds, is simply not viable. It's been tried once, and failed miserably in the USSR, North Korea, China, Vietnam,etc. The only viable communist system is cuba, but that's cause it supported by other 'socialist', but for all intents and purposes capitalist south american republics.

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Anarcho-Communist a la Kropotkin, FAGGOTS

>>581123595
You don't seem to grasp the concept that the government is the one behind the violence.

Communism for equality.

Competition brings out the worst in people.

>>581123387
>>581123529
faggot no one gives a shit

>>581123628
Yes, both systems are not immune from imploding.
The problem with using Russia as an example though is it wasn't really Russia itself that caused the crash of the Soviet Union, it was the collective effort of republics that were basically forced to become members against their will.

>>581123724

>theonion

really?

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>>581123842

capitalism because fuck the government

look at all those heaven faggots and their bold statements.

>>581123824

And people are behind government.

>>581123889
Sure thing loser. Run along and eat some crayons. The adults are talking.

>>581123921
I was talking about it's first revolution, should've been more clear. I can't stress enough that the government is behind this mess. They monopolize currency, education, the economy, and so much more so they can get the control and power.

>>581122434
but capitalism is built upon that greed, it accepts it, and encourages it-equal opportunities, not equal wages.

>>581124067
>adults are talking
>on /b/
>about capitalism & communism
T O P K E K
O
P
K
E
K

>>581123754
You mentioned Cuba. In Cuba the system DID change. The revolution brought in a Communist (Marxist) govt which has since remained.

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I always watch star trek and think "such a wonderful ideal society. how the fuck could that ever happen in real life?"

I have no faith in humanity.

>>581124057
Actually big corporations who support corporatism are responsible for our politicians and the government. It's an Oligarchy.

>>581116272
Capitalism, then socialism, then post scarcity marxist utopia/anarchy. Inevitable pretty much

>>581122939

>Wealth-distribution is based on theft
render unto caeser the things that are caeser's
it can't be theft if the state own the money, and the people own the state

>Theft is violent
not really
>A system based on violence can't stand
it probably could
>Violence breeds more violence
hate can't kill hate, at least
but i don't think 'wealth distribution' leads to a dramatically increased murder rate or anything

>>581116272

Capitalism.

Because I like how in a capitalist economy regular people can buy cars and computers.

>>581119159
SO FUCKING EDGY BRO. LOOK AT YOU WITH ALL YOUR EXPERIENCE. STFU FAGGOT. YOU DONT KNOW SHIT. I DO. IM OPERATOR AS FUCK

>>581119208
And will never fail to morph into corporate fascism, doe to the tendency of wealth based machanisms to perpetuate thrir own existence, this superceding a natural ebb and flow.

>>581124518
Imagine an economy where cars and computers were more affordable because you didn't have insurance companies, trade unions, CEOS, and other scam artists artificially inflating the prices.

>>581116272
Nah, i'll take National Socialism instead.

>>581124267
yeah, only because it was supported by the USSR, then Venezuela and the south & central Americas. If Cuba were left to be, it would not function properly. Capitalism encourages efficiency, as one tries to minimize cost. This leads to specialization, which ultimately leads to more consumer choice. The human psyche is built on owning 'stuff', and showing off your stuff, because that's how humans are wired. A communist system would misallocate resources immensely because it simply cannot keep up with the efficiency of the concepts of market supply & demand, which automatically cancel eachother out. Had Cuba been incubated and left to its own devices I can assure you it would have collapsed completely.

>>581124429
Continue to be one of the sheeple if you think the government is run by the people. All governments in this world are Oligarchies.

You're not using logic if you thing theft is not violent.

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>>581124619

>>581116272
All systems degrade over time, concentration of wealth, abused benefit systems, control of resources, standstills in government decision or government decisions contrasting with public needs.
Best solution is a hard reset.

>>581123809
edgy

>>581120115
i like you <3

>>581124674

They still wouldnt be cheap enough for the common person to buy.
For the mass production required, companies need access to huge amounts of capital.

Marxism, but only in a perfect world
Neither work well irl because humans are cunts, but left wing politics work better

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>>581121576

>>581121747
but youre still a pussy and a fuckin tool btw

>>581116272
also a lot of people saying about how things need to be equal, or people going on about anarchism.
You're in a shit position because you, or your family, or your country are shit.
People who are doing better in life than you are doing so because they are better than you.
That is just how life works, it's nature and you might as well go cry about it for all the difference you or anyone else could possibly make to change the fact that life is not fair/

>>581124712
le tips fedora.

The government is run by the people. To make the presumption that all government in this world are oligarchies simply tells me that you are not an active voter, and cringe at the notion of a politician, cause you believe they're scum.

Government is vital to the running of a nation. Who else would invest in roads? Welfare? Education? The free market? I mean sure, I'm all for it in theory, but the notion that government is a grand oligarchy is ridiculous, for a number of reasons, the most important of which being how far you're generalizing when it comes to governments. Not all systems are the same, ministers and presidents are voted out of office. The nature of government dictates that changes are slow, but that doesn't mean that they are non-existent or that the government simply seeks to leech. The only way a government can sustain itself is through votes. How do you get votes? You keep the people happy. How do you keep the people happy? You do things they want. Therefore, people run and regulate government.

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>>581125114
>People who are doing better in life than you are doing so because they are better than you.

The fact that people think like this is the reason no communal government will ever work.

>>581124695
Well, that's your opinion. I see it differently. I think that with complete isolation, Cuba would have had no other option than to embrace extreme socialism.
People's first instinct would have to be to share resources in order to survive. Then, after some time, some middle man who figured out how to exploit the system would then implement capitalist tendencies in order to gather wealth by essentially doing nothing.

>>581125114
and in the end noone gives a shit about your opinion

>>581125386
case in point, communism never works.

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>>581122939
>>581123123
Libertarian Capitalist, don't like Stefan though. Friedman all the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi-D24oCa10

>>581125107
???? Sure thing, Potato.

>>581123809
Yesssss

Communism bc Castro is cooler then Mitt Romnfag

>>581124674
You'd still have accidents, unless you wanted to pay for that Mercedes you wrote off in cash, unions are to stop companies from taking the piss to make maximum profits at the publics expense, you try running a multi billion dollar company for 40k with 1 week holiday and see how quick you start falling to bits

>>581124712

i don't think the government is run by the people

regardless,
my argument would stand even if i only wrote "it can't be theft if the state own the money"
everything else is just a side-note

>All governments in this world are Oligarchies
because of capitalist influence
>You're not using logic if you thing theft is not violent
violence is harmful physical force
it even comes from the latin for 'force'

>>581125367
I do vote. I vote Libertarian. I'm generalizing governments because governments are all the same, violent systems that are meant to control. Also, the free market, charity, and a communities could handle all of those issues.

>>581125431
thanks for taking part in the thread buddy all that input sure made for an interesting conversation

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>>581124810
Indeed

>>581116546
Police stations, jails, and prisons are social infrastructure though...

>>581125507
It would if we didn't allow the exploitation to happen. By regulating the economy and by controlling the distribution of wealth. By eliminating the ability to transfer resources to undesignated people, companies, etc.
Case in point, social services (welfare) in Canada pays their recipient's rent directly in order to avoid the scenario of the person spending their rent money on other things.
I just don't think that the majority of people are responsible with money.

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>>581116272
Capitalism of course

>>581125514
Why don't you like Stefan?

>>581125768
>Because of capitalist influence
It's the influence of control and power over people. Whether it be through money or force. It is power. Power corrupts.

>>581125932
faggot

>>581125765
Lol. Why a Mercedes? They are a relatively useless instrument of social status. We'd drive economically feasible machines that'd benefit society.

>>581125962
Sure. But they're reactionary. They don't change the future; their stuck dealing with the past.

>>581125967
Exploitation is controlling the resources.
If person A and person B both want a particular good, and person B is willing to offer more to obtain that good, then person B should get it.
Saying person B doesn't deserve it and giving it to Person A is inefficient, and is exploitative of market centralization

>>581120206
>The only pure system ever devised was a work of fiction. In that utopia, the system is not controlled by any higher teir ranking human, it is an ideal, a social communism way of life.

u w8 m8? orwell? bradbury?

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Baathism

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>>581126203

Pic related.
Its a glorious car of the people.

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>>581126146
It's mostly a personal opinion, he's damn smart that's not the problem. But when I listen to his videos he talks over you and treats the viewer like an airheaded idiot. Whilst Milton engages you with an argument and challenges your perception of the world.

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>>581126503
This

>>581126503

Implying either of those two have ever taken a bath in their lives.

>>581121576
>Implying we are less alienated than north koreans
Guess that the alienation of others is easier to spot than our own.

>>581126203

Mercedes are extremely intelligently designed you idiot. Best powertrain manufacturing in the market. they pulled 355 bhp from a 2 liter 4 cylinder engine. no one else can do this

>>581126564
I can see where you're coming from. I love him though because he is so intelligent. He can rape any statist with facts and logic.

capitalism, because not all humans deserve to have a good life. People should be exploited, and the people with enough motivation and intelligence to make money at any cost should be rewarded, not penalized.

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>>581126640

>>581126413
Sure, but then we go back to the fact that the capitalist free-market system is inherently tainted by nepotism and inequal opportunity. If capitalism was merely 'work hard, get rewarded' I'm sure it would be successful, but millions of people work extremely hard their whole lives and walk away with nothing while someone born with a silver spoon in their hand gets to reap all of the lovely benefits of a system designed by the rich to keep the rich wealthy.
Imagine working for a year to save up for something that you want only to find out that it was bought out from under you by a person who didn't work at all that year because they were born into a wealthy family. That's not opportunity, it's injustice.

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>>581126706
Trying to derail this thread faggot. 10/10/10.

>>581124684
> National Socialism

Autistic NEET detected

>>581116272
Socialism

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>>581126845
>capitalism, because not all humans deserve to have a good life. People should be exploited, and the people with enough motivation and intelligence to make money at any cost should be rewarded, not penalized.

Post your address. I'll come exploit you. It's what you want right?

>>581126529
You're forgetting that Communist/Socialist build and assemble damn near every car in the Western world.

>>581125815
Listen, I'm all for a spectrum of opinions, but if you want to validate your generalization, you should do more than simply reinforce that you have this generalization. I'd love a libertarian system, where the measure of your own worth is how much you can make out of yourself. However, a society is only as strong as it's weakest link. Therefore, you have to account for a broad spectrum of people who think differently, and thus cause inefficiency. The government serves the role of holding the fabric of a society together, this mosaic of different opinions if you will. Assuming everyone and their mother was libertarian, that system would work perfectly. But because of the nature of human beings, and human compassion for the disenfranchised, you simply cannot implement that. Would you give to a beggar on the street, if you saw he was on the verge of death by starvation? Charity is not a viable safety net, as it is not steady income; it is sporadic. A government has enough funds to hold down a society, as it collects taxes. Charities can't. If they did, they'd be governments.

>>581125967
If you redistribute wealth, one of the things you do is level off the income curve at a certain point as you draw more and more money for welfare, in essence imposing a limit on how much a person can make, based solely of the sweat of his brows. Why and how is that valid? I mean, I know welfare is important, but that's why I pay taxes. The notion that the "1%" should be punished is wrong. That is where someone develops a victim complex. That is wrong. Just because I have something shiny doesn't mean you are entitled to it; you are entitled to have enough assistance to make ends meet. Redistribution of incomes, and by extension, communism, take away from that innate desire to work hard and earn more money. Just look at the GDR's economy.

Communism because capitalism is just a shitty way of organising communism. inb4 anyone thinks soviet was communist

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>>581126813
>with facts and logic
You're right. But viewers won't realize that because they look at him as an arrogant douche bag.

>husband needs medicine to save his dying wife
>pharmacist selling it at 10x the production cost
>refuses to go lower, it is his drug and he wants to get rich
>the husband steals the drug and saves the life of his wife
>libertarians will defend the pharmacist from the evil, cruel, violent husband

>>581126845
>the people with enough motivation and intelligence to make money at any cost should be rewarded
Is merit a value if you're predetermined ?
Btw merit is often praised by people who were born male, white and straight, so it doesn't really make sense.

>>581126706

The Mercedes F1 engine that won the recent F1 title produces about 700bhp from a 1.6L engine.

Good old British engineering.

Listen, seriously. There is no capitalism vs communism. As we move farward on this planet eventually our labor markets will become hyper-saturated. One this occurs the only real viable option is a massive redistribution of resources. At this point the concept of ownership itself becomes more oppresive than it is now, and the coercive systems in place to reinforce the archiac distribution system will inevitably deteriorate, leaving ourselves to figure the most mutually beneficial system of resource distribution/application. This will be a complete lack of a state or any oppressive force, i.e. communism or anarchy. These are just the phases that we as an economic system will have to transition through. Comments?

>>581119208
Mah niggah gets it.

>>581118845
And, you think Detroit went down the tubes, why? Socialism? No.

>>581126890
Capitalism isn't supposed to be about
>work hard, get rewarded
Capitalism is about competitive advantage. You need to be able to work better. You can work as hard as you want toiling away on something that doesn't matter, and you shouldn't get rewarded, because it doesn't matter.
If your company builds a new, better mousetrap, customers will beat a path to your door. If your company builds the old mousetrap, you better think up a new strategy

>capitalism or communism

production for use rather than exchange

>why

without getting into the really endless ethical arguments, i'd rather just point out that capitalism relies on individual rationality and produces collective irrationality

you probably already have a good idea of what that means, but if you want to know more, by all means, read as much hegelian philosophy and marxist works of political economy as possible.

if you're going to be a responsible person you should read the great works of liberalism as well to avoid isolating yourself in an echo chamber, though i'm definitely not suggesting nothing is true and everything is permitted

read everything, consume everything, think as much as possible, we need more thinking and new thinking more than ever. good luck

>>581126706
My wife drives a CLK 430 man. My inlaws have a GL. I'm not an idiot.I guarantee I've spent more time behind the wheel of a Benz than you. It is a luxury item. Mercedes isn't concerned about "the common person", they're concerned about their demographical market. Go ahead though, call me names and mock me.

>>581116272
Both.

:)

>>581127210
If he doesn't have the money to pay it, it's because he was not worth enough as a human being.
>sarcasm

>>581127248
so they should be punished for being born into the superior gender, the superior race, and the superior sexual orientation? There is merit you determine, like how much you effort, and then innate merit such as race and gender and what family you are born into.

If you end up being on the bottom of the ladder and work hard and don't make money, oh well, that sucks for you. These lower class people are still a valuable part of society and should not be ashamed. They do the jobs nobody wants to do while the elite are doing what they do best- making money.

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>>581123809
This shit.

>>581127362
Capitalism is still about raising a poorly educated workforce for the benefit of a minority.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE HEY YOU CAN'T STAB ME STOP IT DON'T TAKE MY STUFF IT'S NOT FAIR!

>>581127140
faggot, the only good thing that commies have done is the USSR national anthem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs
can't top this anthem

>>581127362
However, the playing field is not level with capitalism. You're under the mistaken impression that anyone can make it if they work hard enough. Not true in the slightest.

>>581126890
Precisiely the crippling defext that makes capitalism so ill-suited towards the modern era. Does parus hilton really work harder than a migrant farm laborer? Just sayin.

>>581126674
this. The alienation in our civilisation is more insidious, that's all.

>>581127582
Nothing about capitalism suggests this is the case.
There's a reason structural unemployment exist. The demands that workers must meet is constantly changing. It is not fundamental that workers must be uneducated

>>581127080
If you have something shiny that you only acquired because of nepotism, and NOT because of your work ethic than YES everyone else is just as entitled to it as you are.

>>581127579

>dat one guys face
>you know which one

topkek

>>581127678
why should it be level?

>>581116272
In either system, cronyism eventually takes root and corrupts it. The only solution under any government is to kill off the top echelon every 20 years and give the new generation a chance at success.

So you can live an awesome life for 20 years or a meh-shit life for your natural lifespan. But it will never happen because

>muh right to life

Fucking humans. One can never sacrifice himself for the good of the colony.

>>581127678
I didn't say that anyone can make it if they work hard enough. That's the exact opposite of what I said. They need to be able to work smart. They need to be able to do something better than others to succeed. Capitalism is about creative destruction.

If I start a farm without any modern equipment, you can best bet I'll work my ass off and I won't succeed nearly as much as farmers using equipment, even though I'm working harder. And rightfully so. Inefficiency shouldn't be rewarded

>>581127558
> superior

I would smash your fucking teeth you fascist pile of shit

>>581127558
Are you being serious?
It's painstakingly obvious where you fall on the social ladder. Let's hope you never have to beg at the door you slam in people's faces.

>>581127558
>superior gender, the superior race, and the superior sexual orientation
Can't tell if you're actually serious or not. I guess you aren't.
> There is merit you determine, like how much you effort, and then innate merit such as race and gender and what family you are born into.
So if you're born with what society depicts as a handicap, you're supposed to provide more work than someone considered "normal" and able ? That sucks.
And you're still admitting we're auto-determined. Which is not scientifically proved.
Physics even tend to say that determinism is the way things work. Which ends the concept of responsability. And merit as well.
It's still an opened philosophy question but yet we built our society over an assumption.

>>581127698
Exactly /b/ro

>>581127210
>pharmacist sells the drug at 10x the production cost
>husband is assumed to be the everyman, and thus a good example of an average person
>Average Joe can't buy drug
>nobody ends up buying drug
>Pharmacist schmeckles doesn't get rich.
>has to reduce the price until market equilibrium is reached

I am fully aware of the fact that drugs are relatively inelastic goods, however inelasticity/elasticity is not absolute and changes as you go down a Price/Quantity analysis. Assuming Dr. Schmeckles has raised the price exorbitantly above the market equilibrium, demand is still going to be elastic to an extent, and thus it is in his best interest to lower the price

>economics, and by extension, capitalism, 101

don't even get me started on if it's a competitive market or not,etc.
>>581127792
but then you'd be talking about corruption, which is just as endemic in capitalism as it is in communism. In fact, it is more palpable communism; look at the supreme leaders of North Korea, which makes that irrelevant, don't you think?

>>581128281
more palpable in communism *

>>581128281
Yo butthole! NK is not communist. Yall need to stop with the china/ussr/korea strawman already

>>581116272
Communism because it's the natural continuation of Communism

>>581128210
i am completely serious. I acknowledge there are people that deserve to be successful but get shat on by life and society, but I don't see that as a problem. Everyone can't get what they deserve. Luck is just as essential as motivation/effort.

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Gtg /b/ros

Fuck, this is the best thread I've seen in months. Awesome arguments from both sides. Wish I didn't have to leave.

>>581128467
*of Capitalism

>>581128445
what are you talking about? North Korea is stalinist, which is a deviation from leninist communism but communist nonetheless. If it weren't communist, what would you qualify it as?

>>581126938
What's wrong with metalcore, ass wipe?

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Market economy is better than planned economy. ME is by far the best system of organizing that many people in a good, effective way. Planned economy will inevitably lead to an enormous black market, a small elite that rules over the many, corruption and misery for a lot of people.

Communism can go to hell.

>>581128063
I don't think you understand. I'm just saying that if you're from a white, wealthy family you will be more likely to be wealthy and have advantages than someone how is, say, black and poor.

>inb4 niggers

They can both work as hard as one another, but the rich white guy will certainly have a better chance to succeed.

There is no level playing field, and "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" is a sick myth.

>>581128519
Confirmed for privileged shitty human being. Society made you feel so comfortable over the circumstances you were born in, you feel like everything is due to you.
You're praising merit while you're the one who most likely showed the least. Fuck you.

>>581128651
Communism implies the lack of State property (and the lack of State itself), but much self-called communists and pro-capitalism liberals think that Communism = State

>>581127846
O_o

You believe that not all Americans should start from a level playing field? You don't believe people should be judged on their merits?

Then you're part of the problem.

>>581128856
That has nothing to do with market structure.
You're bringing up racial privilege as if it matters to normative economics.
There is already affirmative action to help level the playing field, what more do you want? Corrupting the market will not eliminate racial privilege

>>581127698
This.

>>581128651
Well Stalin pretty much fucked up everything Lenin did. I wouldn't call it communism, but here is just a problem with naming. I think we pretty much agree that the initial communism is completely different from what NK/USSR/China did/do.

>>581129082
Reputation is a merit in the business world

>>581128572
seeyah man

>>581128971
that is the application of absolute communism; the "freeza's final form" of communism if you will, but until you get there, you are in various stages of pseudo-communism, which is the closest we've gotten and can get to the real deal.

>>581128797
The free market produces the same result. The free market is free until a handful of people get so rich they begin to manipulate the system to their advantage. Money is a measure of power in capitalism, overriding democracy.

>>581116272
Capitalism is cool and fun, but in it's current state of growing out of control and its only future plan is to consume without any regard for the limit of resources. I feel that capitalism has outlived its usefulness in our world and we should move towards more a socialist planned economy model, at least until we are a space traveling species. Once we have a foothold in space we can start to move towards a more free market model due to the access of more resources.

Yes I am a Communist

here's how i think it's going to go down

the last crisis was never fully resolved. some distress exists in foreign markets and in china growth is slowing annually

the can being kicked down the road, of subprime credit and its transition from the financial market into sovereign debt, is going to explode once again, and this time, we'll enter into a very deep global depression. i'm thinking a U6 of anywhere between 25-40%. i doubt that bailouts will be a viable option, considering the mythical amounts of value it would take to do it. no, i think capital itself will have to be devalued either through physical or virtual destruction through debt forgiveness, and both will probably occur via a very large war (not necessarily an apocalyptic world war, but something of very large scale) and debt forgiveness programs

i think the costliness of production especially in times of this impending crisis is going to accelerate the development and investment in robotics, and when a recovery begins to occur without including a large amount of people left without jobs or incomes throughout the world, i think the following will occur

the richest countries for which a universal basic income is possible will attempt a large UBI, and the great majority of countries will not be able to manage it. i think the wild perturbations that a UBI will cause will lead people to take a very large interest in making for themselves what they can't afford in the remaining markets.

so, i think people are going to start leaning on 3D printing and more advanced forms of practically autonomous manufacturing that will have been in development, and that this will roil the existing markets. currency will face wild fluctuations in value, and people will have greater and greater incentives toward these kinds of common, autonomous production. i think this is the point of the death of capitalism. may be not necessarily the death of the market, but certainly the death of the relations of capitalist production

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Socialism is just communism lite. The reason they call them selves "progressives" is because their goal is to progress toward communism.

Both ultimately end in genocide.

we only need more wars

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>>581129420

Capitalism.

I want to keep the rich, rich and make the poor, rich. In a Communist society the poor stay poor and the rich become poor. The only rich ones are the inevitable dictators.

>>581129316
This would be awesome.
After people are freed from their dependance on work, economy and state, maybe they'll finally realize they're surrounded by human beings.
I truly hope the end of capitalism and the arrival of automation of tasks will mean the beginning of a era of tolerance.

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>>581128934
From someone who wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth and still agree with the other guy: fuck you.

It's fucking douchebags like you who think that people like me should pay a higher tax % on our hard earned money so that dumb fucks who spent all their money on shit worth nothing can get some more money to spend.

Go crawl in a ditch and die, communist pig.

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>implying anyone in this thread has any sway over government or the future systems we live under

topkek it's all conjecture and theory

>>581129102
Take away the race from my statement and it still holds true.

>>581129212
And that is a major flaw of capitalism. You just said exactly what I said.

>>581129201
the thing is even if lenin had gotten his own way he wouldn't have managed an application of absolute communism. Can you imagine how hard it would be to sign your own resignation, shut down the government, and commit to a leap of faith the size of jumping into the unknown world of ownerless property? It would be anarchy, as humans will be humans. If you believe in the bible, Cain had no reason to kill Abel, but did anyway. Why? Because he was jealous. If you don't believe in it as 'holy' or whatever, think of it as the embodiment of the human psyche, which means that man will kill his brother for the stupidest of reasons, whether that be jealousy, property or anything else. Now, tell me, with no claim of rightful ownership to any piece of property, how would that work on humans? Would the clothes on your back be yours? Would you feel defensive about them, as they comprise what's left of your individuality? Of course you would. Now, tell me, would you fight for them? Probably. In that case, how are you to live in communism, where there are no laws and no authority in the form of an unbiased state to enforce them?

>>581116272
Either one would be fine instead of the shit we got right now.

Capitalism is the only economic system that creates a group of people who abstain from greed to provide a service to others. These people are called entrepreneurs and the others are their customers.

>>581129690
What do you replace it with?

>>581128651
Stalinism is really not communist. I would say closer to fascism. There is absolutely no redistribution, no decisions made by the proletariat, and a massive violent government. From each according to their abilities, to eaxh accorfing to their need. NK does neither lol its pretty much literal fascism just like ussr. Thats why Trotsky had to leave its really sad actually :(

The ideal system is communis, but since people are the way they are it is not possible. Corperatism is killing us all thou.

>>581129683

I've never understood why a sheep would willingly live with and praise wolves.

I suppose you think someday you'll be a wolf yourself.

>>581129305
Sure, a small amount of people have a lot of power even in capitalistic societies. Saying both economic systems produce "the same results" is downright stupid.

>>581128797
Lol just described everything wrong with capitalism there bud

>>581130041
see
>>581129904

>>581122050
that man is a complete lunatic.

>>581129857
No its an advantage of doing business.
Reputation can be built easier than skill, but it can be lost easier than school too.
And it has an impact on business, so obviously it should and will always be considered. Even in socialist countries, reputation matters.
Even when workers own a collective firm, the worker with the reputation of being the least responsible will be assigned the roles which require the least amount of responsibility.

Like I said, corrupting the markets won't bring about the ideal you desire

>>581129305
Not even people grow rich, its wealth systems built on top of the free market. Banks, corporations, and production complexes than transcend human interest. Without liquid wealth and free market, everyones value is exactly the same, ideally infinite :)

>>581129213
Marxist theory states that, there are basically 5 economic systems through the human history. Each system creates it's own internal contradictions that will lead to the next system ("Class struggle is the engine of history").

You start at
>Primitive Communism
Farming and breeding appear, and so does work division, leading to:
>Slavery
Contradictions between slaves and citizen lead to the next level when slavery is fully developed (Roman Empire)
>Feodalism
In feodalism, slowly, bourgeoisie appears, and the way it works requires freedoms that don't exist yet, so you have a contradiction between bourgeoisie and nobles, eventually leading to American War of Independence, French Revolution, etc. and you get to the next level:
>Capitalism
Capitalism is so fucking fanstastic it quickly spreads to the entire world in a hundred years, but it creates a contradiction between the bourgeoisie (which has become the leading class) and proletaries (who didn't exist before). This contradiction should lead to the final level,
>Socialism
when Capitalism is fully grown.

In 1917, Russia was an almost feodal country, so growing Socialism there was pretty hard. Lenin knew it and this is why he declared war on Poland. He knew that if the Red Army reached Germany, where there was an ongoing communist revolution, socialism would eventually have a strong base (because German Capitalism was really nice grown).
The same applies to China and North Korea. What happened in China, Russia, North Korea was nothing more but State Capitalism.

>>581130020
Marxist humanism a la Gramscii?
Socialism?

I honestly don't have an answer, but that doesn't mean I can't be critical about our current system.

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>>581130089
I never understood why sane people wanted to live like in the former Soviet, Mao Tse Tung's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia or Kim Il Jung's North Korea.

Then it dawned on me that they're not sane, they're completely fucking retarded.

>>581130694
I meant what do you replace race with in your statement

>>581129904
This is why communism mustn't come from politics but through education. It's not in human nature to be selfish, we're supposed to feel empathy for each other (mirror neurons), we just were raised in a way that made us hate each other for the sake of competitivity. The concept of property will only end when everyone will have understood that it is for the good of all that everything should be shared.
And you can't force mindsets upon people through politics, you've to talk with them.
It'll take us centuries to barely try to achieve this, but it still is a great idealistic goal to pursue.

Each system has it's flaws and strengths and if used correctly can be the basis of a perfect society. If it's not correctly used, it's because those who control it falter. In communism, control is spread out throughout the population. In order for fuck-ups to occur, a very large portion of the populace needs to be corrupted. In capitalism however, a handful of corrupted individuals can throw the whole system off balance. In a perfect society, it does't matter if we have communism or capitalism or anarchism, because people respect one another and strive for the whole, not to each his own. Since we don't live in such a society, i choose communism, which as stated, needs much more corruption to be thrown off balance.
Also, capitalism's biggest plus, its pride, is that people work and gain what they deserve accordingly to how much effort they put in. I want the capitalists who read until this point and therefore have a (hopefully) more open mind to dicussion to tell me this. Do you really believe the the CEO that has a hundredfold bigger income than a common worker, also does a hundredfold more work? Tenfold? Most low class workers work their asses off to make what their bosses spend on a pair of shoes. Is that fair?

>>581130373
The child born into a rich family does not do any business, and yet they still have a leg up.

The family you're born into doesn't speak to your personal merits. As someone said earlier, look at Paris Hilton. She is only famous and rich because her family is. It has nothing to do with her work ethic or ability to produce.

>>581130823
As I said, just remove it. The statement about your family's wealth providing a leg up is still 100 percent true.

>>581116272
Communism and Capitalism is just opposite sides of the same evil coin, you know how communism works, now this is what capitalism results in, = a global financial elite controlling almost all the wealth = central banks & wallstreet having so much wealth and power that they control the government, yes thats right kiddies the global zionist banking cartel has used their power to turn the US Govt in to their sock puppet and the CIA & US Armed Forces to be their muscle around the world

Revolution time

capitalism because believing that people will share from because moralfaggotery "good from the heart" bullcrap is extremly Naïve

>>581131534
No great progress in mankind's history was made by people saying that things are the way they are. (except if you're a physicist ikr)

>>581116272
Look what symbol is representing capitalism in your image. A dollar sign. Well people always assume that capitalists are only interested by money and that capitalism is unfair because in it, individuals are not equal. Well its simply not true. Capitalism is much more fair. In it, the market would be always dynamic and competition encouraged, creating more social mobility. You work for what you get, complete fairness. One last thing : look up the works of Milton Friedman in the field of private charity and you will se it does more good than public charities and is again, fairer because instead of being stolen your money for "healthcare" you willingly give money directly to the poor.

>>581116546
>parliaments Full of Shit, City Workstation, rich people, banks
>>581120552
So does communism except you won't gain millions
>>581121897
this, we may even expirience the revolution Lenin, engels and many others talked about
>>581121950
Today people are forced to work and usually get payed less than their work is worth
>>581122189
Society will likely improve, it has to, to even become communist
>>581122335
the people who get exploited= workers are still the majority of the population
>>581123196
This, anyone knows whwhsaid that as long as capitalism exists it will die off on its own ?
>>581126529
This image exists because the capitalist world tries to bash socialist approaches

debate me while I'll reply to more stiff

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>>581116272

Capitalism, because I'd rather work for a living than suck government dick.

Serious argument; Capitalism is the absence of regulation, communism is the preponderance of regulation. Yes, mega-corporations can become autocratic entities unto themselves, and I'm not above having government check them, but there's a big difference between mega-corporations and even mid-sized multi-million dollar businesses owned by individuals or small groups. Furthermore, even mega-corporations tend to have more transparency and oversight than government.

How can I be free if I am not free to use, acquire, create, and otherwise control the results of my own effort?

Communism would take away from me in the name of the "greater good" by saying I have no right to my own property. Perhaps it would even offer me some other person's property in return... but I don't want some other person's property. I want my own, to do with as I will, and I want to prosper or fail according to my own actions. I don't want to be beholden to anybody, and I don't want some regulator telling me what to do, how to do it, where to do it, etc.

Communism must be forced upon me, so for me it is necessarily tyrannical. If you want to live in a commune, then feel free to, but kindly fuck off and do it without me.

>>581130586
But the thing is, using that logic, capitalism will never fully grow, as the only thing that ever happens is that the system recycles itself. The french revolution would have been your best bet, but that didn't work. I doubt anything else will, as the gap between the richest of the rich and the poorest of the poor is becoming smaller when compared to relative historical terms.

>>581130921
If your mother had terminal cancer, and a switch was given to you where you could save the life of your mother somehow, but in return you would have to forfeit the life of a stranger you will never meet or come in contact with (or have come in contact with), would you do it? If so, you've already established a hierarchy of importance based on the sentimental value of a person (due to the fact that you're emotionally attached to them), negating the premise of total and absolute equality. Total and absolute equality would mean you are nothing but a statistic. Humans feel a strong sense of identity, whether that's built on nationalism, creed, race, etc. To take that away is to take human nature away. It does not have to be restricted to property per say.

>>581132273
French revolution was actually a revolution which wiped out feodalism and brought capitalism to France. Marxism didn't exist back then.

>>581131864
But you still work FOR someone. So you can spit money on you, so you can buy him the goods you made yourself. It's no different from slavery.
What is slavery ? It's people working for a master, though the master need them to work for him, so he "offers" them a roof and food.
What is work under capitalism ? It's people working for a boss, though the boss need them to work for him, so he "offers" them money so they can get stuff to sustain their lives.
Though, they learned from slavery, people were mad about their condition, so nowadays they let out the slack so people can be happy about their condition by creating more goods than they actually need and telling them since birth that owning is the highway to happiness.
>Work under capitalism is the same as slavery but with people being happy about it though conditioning

>>581132485
marxism, like any other theory, is based on the observation on how events play themselves out. Das Kapital may not have been written by the time of the french revolution (or the century thereafter), but the same type of 'class separation' was already in place. The bourgeoisie was established as it could have ever been(the nobles are more than arguably part of it), meaning the strongest catalyst for change to a communist system had occured without avail. Thus, it will fail to materialize, if the trends of today are in ceteris paribus.

>>581132927
So *he can spit

both fail in practice
human greed and corruption ruins any economic system

>>581132273
Mmmh you're right about that switch thing, gonna think about it.
>Humans feel a strong sense of identity, whether that's built on nationalism, creed, race, etc.
I don't agree on this though, all of the above is predetermined by the society you live in, living in the ideal utopian society I was describing means being free from this man-crafted conditions because tolerance. It's not human nature, it's conditioning.

>>581133609
but then would you argue that your love and preference for your mother is also conditioning?

>>581133491
What if greed and corruption aren't part of human nature ? Money is just one of our many tools we could, idealistically speaking, get rid of.

>>581133798
Dunno, that's why I gonna think about it. That's a very interesting point. Hope I get an answer before the thread 404s.

>>581133998
alright, take your time!

>>581116272
Having experienced both, I choose neither. They both suck and don't work

>>581134295
when did you experience communism?

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818KB, 630x253px

Neither
Because fuck society